US Supreme Court is set to overturn Roe v. Wade

[wljourney]

I don't understand why you guys just don't have Civil War 2 already. You know you wanna kill each other so bad you can taste it & the rest of us really, really wanna watch it.

I don't know man.
They'll just spill over up north and honestly… no thanks!

 

[Someone123]

I find it hypocritical for people here to want laws allowing for assisted suicide yet be for laws banning abortions. Anyone who thinks they are going to overturn Roe v Wade and then go on to allow assisted suicide for any mental and physical afflictions in the U.S. is not doing the math. But I guess, let's let women suffer and to hell with the rest.

This will only affect poor women, anyone with means can travel and have their abortions. It is the poor women that will be forced to provide more chattel for the corporations to make their cheap material goods. They are also the ones least likely to be able to afford birth control.

Some of these babies will be put up for adoption as the Evangelicals need more bodies to indoctrinate. This is how they keep the whole farce going. It's all quite sick to me.

Allowing assisted suicide is letting a person decide for themselves when they want to end thier life, which makes sense to me. Allowing abortion means letting a person decide when to end another person's life- in this case an innocent, defenseless baby who has had no chance at life outside the womb.

 

[odradek]

Allowing assisted suicide is letting a person decide for themselves when they want to end thier life, which makes sense to me. Allowing abortion means letting a person decide when to end another person's life- in this case an innocent, defenseless baby who has had no chance at life outside the womb.

Please provide evidence that a zygote is alive and maybe contrast that with the pregnant person, who is in fact alive.

 

[YourNeighbor]

Please provide evidence that a zygote is alive and maybe contrast that with the pregnant person, who is in fact alive.

Zygotes divide into multiple cells that then differentiate. There is no question that zygotes are alive.

 

[9BBN]

And the idea that aborting a fetus in the first few weeks equals murder makes as much sense as telling a vegan they're murdering plants.

Louder for the people in the back. Seriously, there's a difference between being alive and being sentient. Anti-abortionists, how do you explain that murder is wrong when the living thing is not sentient?

Unfortunately most pro-lifers don't understand veganism because they miss this nuance. I literally grew up with people who criticized vegans by saying "But they're killing plants! They're hypocrites!" In my experience, it's often true that the same people who can't distinguish between the life of a fetus and the life of a person also can't distinguish between the life of the plants in their garden and the life of their own dog. It's sad.

 

[odradek]

Zygotes divide into multiple cells that then differentiate. There is no question that zygotes are alive.

If you want to argue that a zygote has more rights than a pregnant person, fair enough, I disagree. Otherwise I feel this point is a bit pedantic. A zygote is not "alive" compared to the person it's inside. This is an anti-choice opinion.

 

[YourNeighbor]

If you want to argue that a zygote has more rights than a pregnant person, fair enough, I disagree. Otherwise I feel this point is a bit pedantic. A zygote is not "alive" compared to the person it's inside. This is an anti-choice opinion.

I am not making anything like that argument. See my posts above. But the whole "when does life begin" argument is a red herring and nonsensical.

 

[odradek]

I am not making anything like that argument. See my posts above. But the whole "when does life begin" argument is a red herring and nonsensical.

Okay I see your point. I meant a zygote is not human, we agree.

 

[Spiritual survivor]

I know it's unpopular to say this but I don't think it should be legal. Rather we need to improve the conditions and raising of children so that women are not in a situation where they feel pressure to abort. I mean we need boys and girls to be well parented and brought up responsibly so that people are less likely to become promiscuous from childhood abuse and environmental influences. We need a society where pple are not forced to live in poverty and insecurity. Then u won't need abortion to be legal. Unfortunately abortion is legal because the oligarchs who rule over us want us to believe that it is normal and acceptable to destroy unborn human beings. It is not normal, it is not acceptable. It is imposed on us.

 

[9BBN]

I know it's unpopular to say this but I don't think it should be legal. Rather we need to improve the conditions and raising of children so that women are not in a situation where they feel pressure to abort.

I also support the mission to improve conditions of raising children, but how is this incompatible with abortion being legal? Does legal abortion really undermine this mission, or are you simply morally opposed to abortion?

Unfortunately abortion is legal because the oligarchs who rule over us want us to believe that it is normal and acceptable to destroy unborn human beings. It is not normal, it is not acceptable. It is imposed on us.

Why should we consider living fetuses to be "people" if they are not sentient? I would think sentience is required for personhood.

 

[Someone123]

Louder for the people in the back. Seriously, there's a difference between being alive and being sentient. Anti-abortionists, how do you explain that murder is wrong when the living thing is not sentient?

There is no way to know what a zygote feels, but we do know that id this life is not stopped that it will grow into a full grown person unless there is some medical issue during the process.

Unfortunately most pro-lifers don't understand veganism because they miss this nuance. I literally grew up with people who criticized vegans by saying "But they're killing plants! They're hypocrites!" In my experience, it's often true that the same people who can't distinguish between the life of a fetus and the life of a person also can't distinguish between the life of the plants in their garden and the life of their own dog. It's sad.

There is every reason to believe that plants are sentient, that they do experience pain and pleasure as part of their lives. I do believe that being vegan reduces suffering by other living things quite a but, based on conditions in factory farms, etc. But vegans often believe that plants don't experience pain and pleasure just because they want to believe it, and because plants can't communicate in the way that animals do. There is every reason to believe that plants feel pleasure and pain like all living things.

 

[9BBN]

There is no way to know what a zygote feels, but we do know that id this life is not stopped that it will grow into a full grown person unless there is some medical issue during the process.

Except we do know what a zygote feels. It has no nervous system, so it certainly feels nothing. And why is it murder if it isn't a person yet?

There is every reason to believe that plants are sentient, that they do experience pain and pleasure as part of their lives. I do believe that being vegan reduces suffering by other living things quite a but, based on conditions in factory farms, etc. But vegans often believe that plants don't experience pain and pleasure just because they want to believe it, and because plants can't communicate in the way that animals do. There is every reason to believe that plants feel pleasure and pain like all living things.

Plants, along with human fetuses, don't have capacity for self-consciousness. The truth is that pain and pleasure are not "felt" without consciousness. Plants only "feel" things in the sense that they can respond to stimuli. Your scientific claim is only backed up by sensational journalism that misrepresents the science.

 

[Someone123]

Except we do know what a zygote feels. It has no nervous system, so it certainly feels nothing. And why is it murder if it isn't a person yet?

You are stopping something that will grow into a person. Plus it is proven that a central nervous system isn't the only way that living thines feel sensations- besides it's common sense that just because an organism is designed differently and doesn't have a "central" nervous system doesn't mean it can't feel.

Plants, along with human fetuses, don't have capacity for self-consciousness.

There is no way anybody can know this for certain, but since all living things appear to feel it certainly makes sense that plants do as well. What could a plant do to convince you that it feels sensation? You just believe this because you want to, not because it can be proven.

 

[9BBN]

You are stopping something that will grow into a person.

Right, so you're doing it before it's immoral because it isn't conscious yet.

Plus it is proven that a central nervous system isn't the only way that living thines feel sensations

Like what? And which of those things does a zygote have? (I'll wait)

- besides it's common sense that just because an organism is designed differently and doesn't have a "central" nervous system doesn't mean it can't feel. There is no way anybody can know this for certain, but since all living things appear to feel it certainly makes sense that plants do as well. What could a plant do to convince you that it feels sensation? You just believe this because you want to, not because it can be proven.

As long as we define what it means to "feel," we can scientifically determine which organisms can feel or not. Fetuses don't "feel" in any meaningful definition of the word that would influence abortion rights, because they don't have consciousness.

 

[Someone123]

Right, so you're doing it before it's immoral because it isn't conscious yet.

it's immoral because it is living and growing and this is the first stage of being human- a stage we have all gone through.

Like what? And which of those things does a zygote have? (I'll wait)

Much of the details of science is unknown, and this may be unknown, but we doi know this is a living entity that is growing into a fully develoiped person, and stopping this is killing this- it is killing a person in the first stage of being a person.

As long as we define what it means to "feel," we can scientifically determine which organisms can feel or not. Fetuses don't "feel" in any meaningful definition of the word that would influence abortion rights, because they don't have consciousness.

Nobody has a perfect understanding of what it is to "feel" ot to have consciousness, but we do know that this zygote is in the first stage of being a person, and that it is living and growing at an exponential rate.

 

[9BBN]

it's immoral because it is living and growing and this is the first stage of being human- a stage we have all gone through.

Much of the details of science is unknown, and this may be unknown, but we doi know this is a living entity that is growing into a fully develoiped person, and stopping this is killing this- it is killing a person in the first stage of being a person.

Nobody has a perfect understanding of what it is to "feel" ot to have consciousness, but we do know that this zygote is in the first stage of being a person, and that it is living and growing at an exponential rate.

A fetus is not the first stage of "being" a person, it is in the stages of "becoming" a person. You in your own writing say it is not yet a person:

You are stopping something that will grow into a person.

If it is not yet a person, then it is not in a stage of personhood. You contradict yourself.

A fetus may be living, but it is not yet a person. Until it is a person, there is no person you are killing, so it's not murder.

 

[Someone123]

A fetus is not the first stage of "being" a person, it is in the stages of "becoming" a person. You in your own writing say it is not yet a person:

Words are imprecise and I am writing this quickly, so you can nitpick on the words, but the fact is that from the moment of conception this is a person- the zygote is the first stage of being a person. If you stop a life you are killing this being, this is murder.

 

[9BBN]

Do you believe a zygote has consciousness?

 

[Someone123]

Do you believe a zygote has consciousness?

I believe that is unknown, but that there are different types on consciousness, and that this is a question we may never know the answer to- I certainly believe it is possible.

 

[Blondi]

it's immoral because it is living and growing and this is the first stage of being human- a stage we have all gone through

If you had to choose between saving a 22 year old woman from torturous death or
preventing couple abortions , which would you choose and why?

 

[Spiritual survivor]

I also support the mission to improve conditions of raising children, but how is this incompatible with abortion being legal? Does legal abortion really undermine this mission, or are you simply morally opposed to abortion?

Why should we consider living fetuses to be "people" if they are not sentient? I would think sentience is required for personhood.

They are sentient. Abortion does not prevent child abuse or poverty. Actually it worsens these things. Believe it or not we are actually underpopulated not overpopulated. The people who rule over us want to reduce the population to like 500 million worldwide as suggested by the Georgia Guidestones. If u take too many pple out there will no longer be a high standard of living. The thing is abortion does not exist in nature. Aside from the occasional mother abandoning a baby or the rare case of infanticide. Usually most women will produce some surviving children although abortion is more likely to cause women to avoid pregnancy entirely because it's more convenient not to have to be pregnant and not all women immediately desire to be mothers even though we are given the equipment to produce a child. Many women don't immediately want a child until it is physically there outside the womb and then it becomes real that u are now a mother.

 

[Someone123]

If you had to choose between saving a 22 year old woman from torturous death or
preventing couple abortions , which would you choose and why?

That's like asking- would you rather lose your eyesight or your hearing- neither option is great. It's not worth it to worry about an unrealistic scenario that has no good choices. On this issue especially I think it is best to focus mental energy on practical, real-world choices.

 

[Blondi]

That's like asking- would you rather lose your eyesight or your hearing- neither option is great.

So you believe that aborting fetus is morally same ( or somewhat equivalent ) as letting a person die brutal death?

It's not worth it to worry about an unrealistic scenario

1. This is not unrealistic scenario there definitely were many similar cases in history
2. The purpose of an extreme scenarios is to test consistency of an argument .

 

[Someone123]

So you believe that aborting fetus is morally same ( or somewhat equivalent ) as letting a person die brutal death?

Some of the fetuses are chopped apart in the womb and cry during this process, so this is a brutal death- I think they are both terrible deaths- of living people.
If you are talking about a woman being at high risk of dying during childbirth I do support abortion in this case. That's the only scenario like this that I can think of that fits this profile in real life.

 

[Spiritual survivor]

A fetus is not the first stage of "being" a person, it is in the stages of "becoming" a person. You in your own writing say it is not yet a person:

If it is not yet a person, then it is not in a stage of personhood. You contradict yourself.

A fetus may be living, but it is not yet a person. Until it is a person, there is no person you are killing, so it's not murder.

If u think it's normal to abort babies why did I experience trauma from aborting all my 5 children? If this is so normal and without causing harm? It was destructive for me to lose my children and I understand that I'm responsible for making bad decisions but abortion of all my kids was a bit extreme. I was not unscathed from having my children terminated. I live with the remorse and pain everyday I made the choice to terminate in haste and under stress not like I felt that it was going to be ok.

 

[LongtimeLoser]

Some of the fetuses are chopped apart in the womb and cry during this process, so this is a brutal death- I think they are both terrible deaths- of living people.
If you are talking about a woman being at high risk of dying during childbirth I do support abortion in this case. That's the only scenario like this that I can think of that fits this profile in real life.

An experienced doctor knows to slit the throat of the baby before beginning the procedure of chopping it apart inside the mom. Allowing the woman to hear the screams of her dying child is a rookie mistake. The cries can sometimes cause an immediate bound between mother and child.

 

[9BBN]

They are sentient. Abortion does not prevent child abuse or poverty. Actually it worsens these things. Believe it or not we are actually underpopulated not overpopulated. The people who rule over us want to reduce the population to like 500 million worldwide as suggested by the Georgia Guidestones. If u take too many pple out there will no longer be a high standard of living. The thing is abortion does not exist in nature. Aside from the occasional mother abandoning a baby or the rare case of infanticide. Usually most women will produce some surviving children although abortion is more likely to cause women to avoid pregnancy entirely because it's more convenient not to have to be pregnant and not all women immediately desire to be mothers even though we are given the equipment to produce a child. Many women don't immediately want a child until it is physically there outside the womb and then it becomes real that u are now a mother.

They're not sentient. Do you think sentience is supernatural, or biological? Abortion does reduce poverty, because a majority of abortions are performed to reduce impoverishment of families. "Abortion does not exist in nature" is a terrible moral argument. Morality doesn't depend on what is natural. And your last sentence is very anti-choice, so many problems with it, but I'll pick one: even if it was true that most women would change their mind and want their child if it was forced to be born, that is not enough to say abortion is not any woman's right.

If u think it's normal to abort babies why did I experience trauma from aborting all my 5 children? If this is so normal and without causing harm? It was destructive for me to lose my children and I understand that I'm responsible for making bad decisions but abortion of all my kids was a bit extreme. I was not unscathed from having my children terminated. I live with the remorse and pain everyday I made the choice to terminate in haste and under stress not like I felt that it was going to be ok.

I'm really sorry, that sounds like a painful experience. Ideally there are no unwanted pregnancies, but abortion should still be a right.

 

[Someone123]

An experienced doctor knows to slit the throat of the baby before beginning the procedure of chopping it apart inside the mom. Allowing the woman to hear the screams of her dying child is a rookie mistake. The cries can sometimes cause an immediate bound between mother and child.

Well slitting the throat of a baby who is capable of crying is also extremely cruel, this is in no way humane- this does not eliminate severe suffering on the part of the baby, this just hides it.

 

[Feeding Pigeons]

I have no idea when life actually begins, or what is the actual morally correct thing to do.

What I do know is that life can be pretty shitty as it is, and forcing someone to enter the world with parents who didn't want them seems like a fucking atrocious start. However, there are a lot of people who had terrible upbringings who contributed to society, in both good and bad ways.

So who knows. This is why I focus more on letting people have the right to choose. If it is a horrible sin to have an abortion, let the people involved hold the weight. I love how theres always been problems with poverty, crime, hunger etc, but this is the one issue where all of a sudden people jump up and act like they have to be the moral vanguard of the country. It never made sense to me.

 

[Cathy Ames]

There are numerous accounts of women saying that the baby cried during the abortion process and that they deeply regretted the abortion once they heard their baby cry.

If there really are, then there are numerous FALSE accounts. Also the vast majority of women who have abortions do NOT regret it.

Some of the fetuses are chopped apart in the womb and cry during this process,

No. No one credible has ever described this as happening, and you really ought to quit repeating this lie. There was one abortionist who was doing ILLEGAL stuff--maybe he is one who would "abort" a full term fetus, as in a baby getting ready to be born. That's illegal already, and the guy (Gosnell) is in jail for murder. The fact that you are repeating lies over and over again tells me you don't have an actual good argument other than your personal feelings.

EDIT: Just FYI, over 98% of abortions in the U.S. are carried out prior to 20 weeks. [This may change now, due to all of the Red State b.s. that is making access more difficult.] Fetuses do "cry" in the womb starting at around 28 weeks*. It's not actual crying that makes noise. The vocal cords are not involved. They're not going to make noise until after they are born and take a breath. Anything that is supposedly "chopped apart in the womb" is not making a noise that the mother is hearing, as you described in the thing that I quoted.

[* So it is an extremely tiny number of abortions that are even ever ABLE to do this.]