The concept of "white privilige" is outdated and harmfull for meaningful progress.

[AJ95]

Privilege is still very real and extends to more than just race, it's blissful ignorance to say otherwise.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Privilege is still very real and extends to more than just race, it's blissful ignorance to say otherwise.

yes. Much more relevant is wealth and ownership privilege.

 

[ravergirl]

yes. Much more relevant is wealth and ownership privilege.

I disagree. Yes, wealth and ownership matter. But, let's face it, a rich black man in America is still treated differently. A white CEO can walk around in sweats and still be treated as a genius. A black man in casual clothes is seen as a "thug", no matter his wealth.

I'm a serial shoplifter, and I never get followed around stores. Because I'm a cute white girl with blonde hair. White privilege is the ability to walk into a room and not be judged negatively before you say a word.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I disagree. Yes, wealth and ownership matter. But, let's face it, a rich black man in America is still treated differently. A white CEO can walk around in sweats and still be treated as a genius. A black man in casual clothes is seen as a "thug", no matter his wealth.

I'm a serial shoplifter, and I never get followed around stores. Because I'm a cute white girl with blonde hair. White privilege is the ability to walk into a room and not be judged negatively before you say a word.

I understand your points, but I still believe this new white privilege/white guilt discourse is part of larger almost religious ideology espoused by some on the political left.

On the surface it seems to come from a good place, and signals an advancement in self-awareness and broadening of one's perspective to take the experiences of other identity groups into account so that more respect is shown etc.

But psychologically there is perhaps more going on, and beneath the apparently noble admission of guilt and sin relating to being white [with ancestors who were imperialists, slave owners, warmongers etc], hides an interplay of complex emotional drives and interpersonal dynamics which function to reassert power in a dissimulated fashion.

Slavoj Zizek (the leftist marxist, or rather hegelian, but he's also white so his words may be marginally irrelevant depending on your ideological presuppositions) puts it in this way:

"renouncing all the particular features of your identity always comes with, in a discreet way, asserting your position of universality. All these apparently modest self-denigrating white people, at the same time have no problems behaving in a very patronizing way towards others, correcting them, telling them when they make mistakes etc. So clearly the secret profit is this moral authority given to you in this way...with political correctness, often the position of a victim can be used as an instrument to justify exerting a particular form of power." (address at the Oxford university union)

I think that at bottom, white people are not the 'problem', neither is any particular race or ethnicity or gender, the problem is an economic system which is deeply unjust, duplicitous and exploitative. This is not to say that that there are not problems concerning race relations and racism, but only that they are part of a wider type of social and economic injustice which also includes class exploitation, and which cannot be remedied by simply falling in line with an intersectional narrative and recognizing some illusory privilege and guilt for ancestral racial sins.

There was actually an interesting [article] written in the guardian (a very left-wing paper) about 'white privilege' being a clever distraction which further obscures the opaque designs of finance and big banking which undermine democracy and accountability and transfer wealth and power in massively unequal ways.

For example, according to yanis varoufakis, the former greek finance minister who was elected on a platform of renegotiating greece's debt and cutting back on austerity, when he was at the first eurogroup meeting in 2015, was told by the german finance minister wolfgang schauble:

"Elections cannot be allowed to change economic policy".

That's the consensus attitude of mainstream politicians in 'power', because they are in fact run and coopted by the financial sector and monopolies in big tech at silicon valley. If people don't wake up soon the matrix won't be a science fiction film, it will be a prescient documentary.

 

[ravergirl]

But race is sooo embedded in that economic system. Including the fact that many poor white people vote for Republicans because they pit us against non-whites. I know plenty of poor white people who think that immigrants or people of color are why they are poor.

White privilege isn't the same thing as white guilt. It's something that is part of the system we're in. My name is Bailey. I'm more likely to get a job than if my name was Shanice. Because my application is more likely to be taken seriously. That's not my fault, but it just is. I'm more likely to raise my economic status.

Even as a sex worker, which is my career, I'm more "attractive" to a lot of people because I'm a cute, white, blonde. I make enough money to afford my own apartment, my drug habit, and have some spending money left over. Many black sex workers can't say the same because their time is literally worth less because our white supremacist culture has created standards of beauty that they can't meet.

Are you familiar with the term intersectionality?

 

[Despairing]

Privilege extends far beyond race. The abuse of mentally ill people is horrendous and horrific.

I disagree. Yes, wealth and ownership matter. But, let's face it, a rich black man in America is still treated differently. A white CEO can walk around in sweats and still be treated as a genius. A black man in casual clothes is seen as a "thug", no matter his wealth.

I'm a serial shoplifter, and I never get followed around stores. Because I'm a cute white girl with blonde hair. White privilege is the ability to walk into a room and not be judged negatively before you say a word.

I don't think every white person who sees a black person in casual clothes judges him as a thug. I know I certainly don't.

 

[ravergirl]

I don't think every white person who sees a black person in casual clothes judges him as a thug. I know I certainly don't.

I didn't say "every white person". I don't, either. But enough do. Hence all of the calling of cops on black people for - walking their dog, studying in a college study room, going swimming, etc., etc. I can walk though my neighborhood literally dressed like a hooker and not have the cops called on me.

All else being equal, it is harder to be a person of color in our society than a white person. That's a fact. And that's white privilege. I'm a fucking criminal. I have shoplifted, done drugs, and done sex work. I often have crystal meth in my car. But guess what. A cute little blonde girl like me rarely gets pulled over, and when I have been, I've not once had my car searched. That's white privilege.

Privilege extends far beyond race. The abuse of mentally ill people is horrendous and horrific.

Yes. White privilege is not the only privilege. That doesn't make white privilege not exist.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Are you familiar with the term intersectionality?

yes

White privilege isn't the same thing as white guilt

yes, that's a fair point, but they are two sides of the same coin

our white supremacist culture

What evidence is there that there is such a thing as white supremacist culture? Europe and America have been predominantly white during the past centuries, but is that the same thing as 'supremacy'? Isn't it just a cultural hegemony due to geography? The addition of the term 'supremacy' has certain connotations and plays an ideological role, but is in fact a red herring imo, in terms of identifying the root cause of problems in the contemporary world. Is Japan a supremacist nation, or China, or India, or Nigeria?

My name is Bailey. I'm more likely to get a job than if my name was Shanice. Because my application is more likely to be taken seriously. That's not my fault, but it just is. I'm more likely to raise my economic status.

I'm not denying this. As I said, I recognize that racism and discrimination exist, but I just don't think that inventing a newspeak in order to divide populations up along identity lines, to target sections of that division as constituting the problem, is the answer. The problem is much more fundamental.

 

[ravergirl]

I'm not denying this. As I said, I recognize that racism and discrimination exist, but I just don't think that inventing a newspeak in order to divide populations up along identity lines, to target sections of that division as constituting the problem, is the answer. The problem is much more fundamental.

But the problem is not as fundamental as you want to think. If it was, then the working class would unite against capital. That doesn't happen. A lot of white, working class people support capital. White privilege is part of the reason for that. The population has already been divided up along identity lines, The purpose of talking about white privilege is to acknowledge that the powers that be have divided us.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

A cute little blonde girl like me rarely gets pulled over, and when I have been, I've not once had my car searched. That's white privilege.

Couldn't it be due to the fact that you're a girl, and that girls are generally perceived to be less of a threat and less dangerous than men?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Couldn't it be due to the fact that you're a girl, and that girls are generally perceived to be less of a threat and less dangerous than men?

True story: my young black female friend, late 20s, dresses like a white person, grew up surrounded by white people, hangs with white and Asian people, gets into an elevator with a white woman. The white woman hugs her purse close to her body.

 

[BipolarGuy]

True story: my young black female friend, late 20s, dresses like a white person, grew up surrounded by white people, hangs with white and Asian people, gets into an elevator with a white woman. The white woman hugs her purse close to her body.

While we're fighting with each other about how much melanin we have in our skin or how much rice we eat, the people who are taking advantage of us all are getting away with it.

 

[ravergirl]

While we're fighting with each other about how much melanin we have in our skin or how much rice we eat, the people who are taking advantage of us all are getting away with it.

Again, the point of white people acknowledging our privilege is to not let them get away with it.

Couldn't it be due to the fact that you're a girl, and that girls are generally perceived to be less of a threat and less dangerous than men?

If I looked like a black girl from the hood, I'd be more likely to get searched. Because the presumption would be that I do drugs. That's the irony I'm trying to point out.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Again, the point of white people acknowledging our privilege is to not let them get away with it.

I'm sorry?
It sounds like you've thrown a quote at me without understanding what I was actually trying to say.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

If it was, then the working class would unite against capital. That doesn't happen. A lot of white, working class people support capital. White privilege is part of the reason for that. The population has already been divided up along identity lines, The purpose of talking about white privilege is to acknowledge that the powers that be have divided us.

That's because the modern left and socialists are so disorganized and have basically abandoned their working class constituents. As soon as a real socialist even begins to get near the levers of power like bernie sanders (and bernie is no more radical than the new deal democrats of the 1930s), they are immediately eliminated by the system.
It's not that easy to unite against capital, when people are fed a steady diet of smartphones, social media distractions, television shows, which gives them an illusion of freedom and comfort. But in fact they are no more free, and probably less happy, than an 18th century russian serf.

A lot of white working class people support capital because they have been duped and indoctrinated by propaganda, and also because white people constitute the majority in western countries, as an arithmetical fact. That's not white privilege, that's demographics + ideology.

Ok, I agree with your last point to an extent. If talking about white privilege is about acknowledging that the centers of power have divided people, then that's fine.
But I feel that in the modern so-called culture wars, white privilege plays a much bigger role, which is that of a bludgeon to assert a certain form of power. It requires the willingness of someone to wield the bludgeon itself, and the willingness of another to be bludgeoned, and plenty are willing to take on both those roles.

If a particular person is guilty of actually being racist towards another, of treating someone unfairly, or using their position of authority or power to diminish and abuse another, then they should absolutely be called out and punished or redressed accordingly. But it should be case by case and empirical, since situations are complex and diverse. The concept of white privilege is expedient in that it creates a category or concept which can be applied to almost any situation with a white person involved, but it doesn't ultimately solve anything meaningful.

 

[ravergirl]

I'm sorry?
It sounds like you've thrown a quote at me without understanding what I was actually trying to say.

I may have misunderstood you, then. What were you trying to say?

 

[BipolarGuy]

I may have misunderstood you, then. What were you trying to say?

I'm trying to say that the problem isn't black people or white people.

 

[LonelyDude15]

I can understand how someone could see things this way but if you've taken the time to listen to POC about their experiences I would imagine it would be kind of difficult to deny that there are underlying forces that make life more difficult for POC. I mean institutionalized racism has been well studied and documented for a long time.

 

[ravergirl]

if a particular person is guilty of actually being racist towards another, of treating someone unfairly, or using their position of authority or power to diminish and abuse another, then they should absolutely be called out and punished or redressed accordingly. But it should be case by case and empirical, since situations are complex and diverse. The concept of white privilege is expedient in that it creates a category or concept which can be applied to almost any situation with a white person involved, but it doesn't ultimately solve anything meaningful.

But it's not always about a particular person. It's about a system that is racist. When having an arrest record makes it harder to get a job, and a black person is more likely to be arrested for possession of weed than a white person even though they are equally likely to smoke weed, then that creates a barrier. If being late to work creates a write-up that makes it harder to get promoted, and a black person doing nothing wrong is more likely than a white person doing nothing wrong to get randomly pulled over on the way to work... and on, and on, and on.

The point is that we need to acknowledge that we're in a racist system. That we benefit from that system in a bunch of ways. It doesn't make us bad people. But we can't ally with people of color if we don't understand how the system benefits us over them.

And, quite honestly, I'm tired of white men complaining that they occasionally get unfairly shouted down in leftist spaces. You're so used to having your voices heard that it never occurs to you that the rest of us get talked over all the fucking time. Maybe reflect on what it feels like and think about how often you see white men talking over people of color or women.

I'm trying to say that the problem isn't black people or white people.

I agree. The problem is the system. That was set up by a minority of white people to benefit them. And part of that set up is to throw larger crumbs to poor white people than to poor people of color.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I understand your points, but I still believe this new white privilege/white guilt discourse is part of larger almost religious ideology espoused by some on the political left.

On the surface it seems to come from a good place, and signals an advancement in self-awareness and broadening of one's perspective to take the experiences of other identity groups into account so that more respect is shown etc.

But psychologically there is perhaps more going on, and beneath the apparently noble admission of guilt and sin relating to being white [with ancestors who were imperialists, slave owners, warmongers etc], hides an interplay of complex emotional drives and interpersonal dynamics which function to reassert power in a dissimulated fashion.

Slavoj Zizek (the leftist marxist, or rather hegelian, but he's also white so his words may be marginally irrelevant depending on your ideological presuppositions) puts it in this way:

"renouncing all the particular features of your identity always comes with, in a discreet way, asserting your position of universality. All these apparently modest self-denigrating white people, at the same time have no problems behaving in a very patronizing way towards others, correcting them, telling them when they make mistakes etc. So clearly the secret profit is this moral authority given to you in this way...with political correctness, often the position of a victim can be used as an instrument to justify exerting a particular form of power." (address at the Oxford university union)

I think that at bottom, white people are not the 'problem', neither is any particular race or ethnicity or gender, the problem is an economic system which is deeply unjust, duplicitous and exploitative. This is not to say that that there are not problems concerning race relations and racism, but only that they are part of a wider type of social and economic injustice which also includes class exploitation, and which cannot be remedied by simply falling in line with an intersectional narrative and recognizing some illusory privilege and guilt for ancestral racial sins.

There was actually an interesting [article] written in the guardian (a very left-wing paper) about 'white privilege' being a clever distraction which further obscures the opaque designs of finance and big banking which undermine democracy and accountability and transfer wealth and power in massively unequal ways.

For example, according to yanis varoufakis, the former greek finance minister who was elected on a platform of renegotiating greece's debt and cutting back on austerity, when he was at the first eurogroup meeting in 2015, was told by the german finance minister wolfgang schauble:

"Elections cannot be allowed to change economic policy".

That's the consensus attitude of mainstream politicians in 'power', because they are in fact run and coopted by the financial sector and monopolies in big tech at silicon valley. If people don't wake up soon the matrix won't be a science fiction film, it will be a prescient documentary.

I'd like to look at the issue of white privilege allegorically.

My white, Christian, midwestern mother beat me. My father supported her actions. The last time she beat me, I told him that for the first time, I almost hit her back. He said, "Don't you dare hit your mother back. She has every right to hit you, don't you dare hit her back." I was beaten well over a hundred times, most often for wanting to get out of the house and socialize, and arguing when given an unreasonable no; she could socialize without permission, and if my father didn't want to go and they argued, she was not beaten by my father. I was often beaten for lying; she never was. I was beaten twice for stealing (by my father, because my mother berated him to, and he was a cop so that feel in his domain); but she was not beaten if she wanted my father to steal something for her (office supplies from work) or me to steal something for her (steal an antique book from school, lie about my age to get a cheaper movie ticket).

My father believed in parental dominance and authority over me, and its privilege, and doubled down on it when I spoke up or wanted to fight back.

Let's imagine that my father became aware of parent privilege, and subsequently experienced guilt for supporting it, and for his attitude that gave permission for me to be harmed. And let's also imagine that he told my mother her actions were wrong, and he told other parents that beat their children that their being unaware of illegimate parent privilege was harming their children as well as themselves.

In this thread, I think my father would then be told: You are focusing on the wrong thing. You are sublimating your identity. The real issue is the German parenting style you inherited, which had roots in a European economic power structure. We don't know who the powerful people are behind this power structure, but far better that parents and children should unite and fight the invisible people. Then the problem of white, Christian, midwestern child abuse will be solved, and lots of other problems, too. So don't feel bad, GPE's father, you're a victim, too. Don't ever let anyone tell you, and don't tell yourself, that your attitude needs to be checked. I can't believe someone is trying to make you feel bad about this and that you're buying into it.

 

[BipolarGuy]

I'd like to look at the issue of white privilege allegorically.

My white, Christian, midwestern mother beat me. My father supported her actions. The last time she beat me, I told him that for the first time, I almost hit her back. He said, "Don't you dare hit your mother back. She has every right to hit you, don't you dare hit her back." I was beaten well over a hundred times, most often for wanting to get out of the house and socialize, and arguing when given an unreasonable no; she could socialize without permission, and if my father didn't want to go and they argued, she was not beaten by my father. I was often beaten for lying; she never was. I was beaten twice for stealing (by my father, because my mother berated him to, and he was a cop so that feel in his domain); but she was not beaten if she wanted my father to steal something for her (office supplies from work) or me to steal something for her (steal an antique book from school, lie about my age to get a cheaper movie ticket).

My father believed in parental dominance and authority over me, and its privilege, and doubled down on it when I spoke up or wanted to fight back.

Let's imagine that my father became aware of parent privilege, and subsequently experienced guilt for supporting it, and for his attitude that gave permission for me to be harmed. And let's also imagine that he told my mother her actions were wrong, and he told other parents that beat their children that their being unaware of illegimate parent privilege was harming their children as well as themselves.

In this thread, I think my father would then be told: You are focusing on the wrong thing. You are sublimating your identity. The real issue is the German parenting style you inherited, which had roots in a European economic power structure. We don't know who the powerful people are behind this power structure, but far better that parents and children should unite and fight the invisible people. Then the problem of white, Christian, midwestern child abuse will be solved, and lots of other problems, too. So don't feel bad, GPE's father, you're a victim, too. Don't ever let anyone tell you, and don't tell yourself, that your attitude needs to be checked. I can't believe someone is trying to make you feel bad about this and that you're buying into it.

Sorry but I have no idea what you're talking about now, or how your Christian mother relates to the concept of racial privilege.

I'll leave you to it.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Sorry but I have no idea what you're talking about now, or how your Christian mother relates to the concept of racial privilege.

I'll leave you to it.

Oh ouch. I've been dismissed.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Oh ouch. I've been dismissed.

No it's OK, I'm not dismissing you.
I just don't understand at all.

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

But it's not always about a particular person. It's about a system that is racist. When having an arrest record makes it harder to get a job, and a black person is more likely to be arrested for possession of weed than a white person even though they are equally likely to smoke weed, then that creates a barrier. If being late to work creates a write-up that makes it harder to get promoted, and a black person doing nothing wrong is more likely than a white person doing nothing wrong to get randomly pulled over on the way to work... and on, and on, and on.

The point is that we need to acknowledge that we're in a racist system. That we benefit from that system in a bunch of ways. It doesn't make us bad people. But we can't ally with people of color if we don't understand how the system benefits us over them.

And, quite honestly, I'm tired of white men complaining that they occasionally get unfairly shouted down in leftist spaces. You're so used to having your voices heard that it never occurs to you that the rest of us get talked over all the fucking time. Maybe reflect on what it feels like and think about how often you see white men talking over people of color or women.


I agree. The problem is the system. That was set up by a minority of white people to benefit them. And part of that set up is to throw larger crumbs to poor white people than to poor people of color.

Actually, African Americans use marijuana more than whites and Hispanics. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3419382/

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

No it's OK, I'm not dismissing you.
I just don't understand at all.

"I'll leave you to it" = dismissed.

 

[BipolarGuy]

"I'll leave you to it" = dismissed.

OK, take care GPE

Sorry to single you out and flame you, it wasn't intended.
Sorry about your mother.

 

[ravergirl]

Actually, African Americans use marijuana more than whites and Hispanics. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3419382/

By a few percentage points. But AA are 5-7 times more likely to be arrested for it, and are also likely to serve longer sentences.

Comparing Black and White Drug Offenders: Implications for Racial Disparities in Criminal Justice and Reentry Policy and Programming

Despite knowledge of racial bias for drug-related criminal justice involvement and its collateral consequences, we know less about differences between Black and White drug offenders. We compare 243 Blacks and White non-violent drug offenders in New Haven, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Despairing]

I didn't say "every white person". I don't, either. But enough do. Hence all of the calling of cops on black people for - walking their dog, studying in a college study room, going swimming, etc., etc. I can walk though my neighborhood literally dressed like a hooker and not have the cops called on me.

All else being equal, it is harder to be a person of color in our society than a white person. That's a fact. And that's white privilege. I'm a fucking criminal. I have shoplifted, done drugs, and done sex work. I often have crystal meth in my car. But guess what. A cute little blonde girl like me rarely gets pulled over, and when I have been, I've not once had my car searched. That's white privilege.


Yes. White privilege is not the only privilege. That doesn't make white privilege not exist.

It exists for sure but mostly in America. I sympathise greatly with black people in the US. The police are already brutal towards white Americans and even more so towards black Americans. I don't think white privilege exists in western Europe the way it does in the US. Maybe it does, although it is not something that is obvious. Racism exists everywhere.

 

[StateOfMind]

I can understand how someone could see things this way but if you've taken the time to listen to POC about their experiences I would imagine it would be kind of difficult to deny that there are underlying forces that make life more difficult for POC. I mean institutionalized racism has been well studied and documented for a long time.

I agree to an extent.
But is that the underlying issue of billions of people living in economic hardship?

 

[esse_est_percipi]

The point is that we need to acknowledge that we're in a racist system

Is it really a racist system in its entirety or just an exploitative system in which some people are biased or prejudiced because humans are just wired that way due to whatever evolutionary reasons, combined with the fact that the system exacerbates the bad sides of human nature?

But we can't ally with people of color if we don't understand how the system benefits us over them.

I just don't see the use in creating these hierarchies of oppression. Yes, we can acknowledge that people born in poor slums or ghettos and who are black will have less opportunities, will face more discrimination etc, than a white person (or a black person) born in a middle class neighborhood.
But if the system was purely a racist construct from the top down, saturated with white privilege, how would any black people become rich or successful?

And, quite honestly, I'm tired of white men complaining that they occasionally get unfairly shouted down in leftist spaces

So perhaps all this new intersectional discourse and identity politicking is a kind of revenge op, a way not to redress genuine unjust power imbalances where they occur, or to create real equality, but a way to cynically assert unidirectional power over a group or a class of people based on their gender and ethnicity, even if particular ones within it have done nothing wrong?
What if individuals who aren't racist or sexist get lumped in with the racist and sexist ones? Is it all about racial or gender categories? If a category is created like white privilege, then it's very easy to commit the ecological fallacy, by assuming that any random individual of that category must have the quality that has been ascribed to the group as an average. I don't see how this is much better than creating negative stereotypes about black people.
And on my view, nothing is solved, everyone becomes bitter or guilty or angry, and the elites just laugh.

That was set up by a minority of white people to benefit them

Yes, but not specifically because they were white. It was to benefit them because they were the owners and wealthy, and they happened to be part of majority european population.
When the american constitution was ratified, some estimates say that more than half of white men were disenfranchised due to property qualifications for the vote. Moreover, some black people in some northers states could vote, and were even considered citizens when the articles of confederation were ratified

"Of this there can be no doubt. At the time of the ratification of the Articles of Confederation, all free native-born inhabitants of the States of New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, and North Carolina, though descended from African slaves, were not only citizens of those States, but such of them as had the other necessary qualifications possessed the franchise of electors, on equal terms with other citizens." (Curtis, Benjamin Robbins (Justice))

How would this have been possible if the system was created only to benefit white people?
Although it's true that there was slavery at the time, and that the constitution was drafted to benefit the property owners and rich, I would say it is a distortion of history to think that it was some inherently racist evil white oligarchy who created the constitution, akin to Hitler and his cronies' seizure of control of germany in 1933. And you can't just judge a set of people in one historical period by the standards of another historical period, since moral standards evolve so quickly. Some of the founding fathers were progressives for their time, actually abolitionists, like franklin, hamilton, jay. And figures like jefferson, although he was a slave owner, was critical of slavery itself.

Yes it was brutal and hell for many slaves, the whole system of slavery was a barbaric criminal enterprise given legal legitimacy by the rapacious pretentions of capitalism, but the constitution had within it the capacity redress some of the huge injustices and unfairness of the time, especially through the mechanism of amendments. Although, given that it's essentially a capitalist document, I don't think that you can get a true socialist or egalitarian state from it.

I don't think white privilege exists in western Europe the way it does in the US. Maybe it does, although it is not something that is obvious. Racism exists everywhere.

Maybe this is where I'm getting it wrong.
I'm assuming that the USA is roughly like western Europe, when in fact perhaps black people have a much harder time in the US than in Europe.