The concept of "white privilige" is outdated and harmfull for meaningful progress.

[Wayfaerer]

Oh dear, this thread got predictably dicey.


I'm ethnically Chinese/Taiwanese and I mostly feel the same. I don't deny the existence of privilege overall though. I am aware that for example I'm incredibly fortunate to have grown up in a mostly Asian community within the United States so I was never made to feel different or whatever like other minorities might have been in other parts of the country. At the same time though, I also don't think it's productive to be so hung up on race at least not in terms of punishing anyone simply because their ancestors happened to be more fortunate. I personally think the only way to truly move forward is to focus more on aiding anyone, regardless of race, who is disadvantaged. I don't believe this can happen if we take away from those with an advantage because then it just creates a cycle of revenge in a way...I also don't believe it can be achieved if the existence of privilege is denied entirely either though... That's just my two cents, I don't mean to step on any toes...

I grew up as a white minority in a place that is overwhelmingly not white. Does that mean that I still have white privilege? If I moved to a remote island and burned my passport would I still have to check my privilege?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I don't understand how white privilege and white guilt are being conflated throughout this thread. I am aware I have privilege, I don't hate myself for it or for being white; I'm simply aware that I have benefitted from it, and that others who lack it have more challenges than I do.

If anything, being aware of my privilege and others' lack of it makes me less narcissistic and myopic.

 

[Wayfaerer]

If anything, being aware of my privilege and others' lack of it makes me less narcissistic and myopic.

It's your way of patting yourself on the back.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I grew up as a white minority in a place that is overwhelmingly not white. Does that mean that I still have white privilege? If I moved to a remote island and burned my passport would I still have to check my privilege?

I guess in society's eyes, it does depend on where you are more than who you are. White already is a minority on a global scale compared to the total number of Asians in the world for example.

I don't understand how white privilege and white guilt are being conflated throughout this thread. I am aware I have privilege, I don't hate myself for it or for being white; I'm simply aware that I have benefitted from it, and that others who lack it have more challenges than I do.

If anything, being aware of my privilege and others' lack of it makes me less narcissistic and myopic.

I think it might be because the way many have gone about asking people to "check their privilege" comes off as overly condescending or self-righteous. I don't think you're being like that at all or that everyone who invokes the term necessarily means it that way, but it does come off as arrogant to some... It would be nice if it didn't though.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

It's your way of patting yourself on the back.

How is that?

 

[death137]

That's a fair point.
@death137 where are you?

Ethiopia

I'd love to see some people of color engage in this conversation and talk about their lived experiences, rather than the whitesplaining (including my own) that's going on about whether or not they have equal social privilege and opportunity.

I've never been out of my country so I can't tell from experience how I was treated compared to white. But from what I observed here in my country white foreigners dont get privilege because of their skin.

 

[epic]

I don't have a solution apart from maybe peace and love?

A good economy is important for peace and love . Socialist countries which frown upon people getting rich have not done well on the economy . They have lower average GDP and higher working hours . Jobs are scarce and people are ready to work long hours . Capitalist countries like US on the other hand have the highest per capita GDP and lower working hours. In simple terms, more per capita GDP means more goods are available for each person . In socialist countries goods are scarce and everybody ends up remaining poor .

 

[bov]

How is that?

I'll give GPF a pat on the back. GPF, sorry you're here but thanks for saying what's right.

 

[death137]

A good economy is important for peace and love . Socialist countries which frown upon people getting rich have not done well on the economy . They have lower average GDP and higher working hours . Jobs are scarce and people are ready to work long hours . Capitalist countries like US on the other hand have the highest per capita GDP and lower working hours. In simple terms, more per capita GDP means more goods are available for each person . In socialist countries goods are scarce and everybody ends up remaining poor .

I read for socialism to be successful the capitalist economy needs to develop. Do you think if developed countries like Germany or Japan become socialist that the economy will be good and since wealth gap will be lower most ppl will be relatively more happy?

 

[foxdie]

I was super hesitant to comment on this thread and given the trajectory it's taken I think I was right. But I guess I'm a sucker for punishment so here I am lol. Please note, my tone in this is in no way accusatory and I'm am trying to approach this in as calm a manner as I can. I hope I don't regret this...

I am a POC (person of colour) in North America, Canada specifically. It is super frustrating and invalidating to see a thread full of white people claiming that white privilege doesn't exist. It is a completely ahistorical take. We're all suicidal, so maybe you can understand not having the energy or mental capacity to fight a fight you've been fighting your whole life. But I'll try to help you understand where I'm coming from. Also I'll freely admit that this thread is very triggering for me and I'm always emotional so please try to not be offended.

White privilege doesn't exist because poor white people or suicidal white people exist? Have you ever consistently been the only member of your race in all of your classes growing up. Have you had authority figures call you "boy" in front of your friends and family? Have you been called a nigger on the playground with no recourse? Have you been followed by security in almost every store you go in basically since you hit puberty? Do you get pulled over by the police a conspicuous amount of times in your life when just trying to go about your life? When I was 13 or 14 my stepdad had a long conversation with my about how I should interact with the police and how to make sure I didn't get hurt. I've had girls fetishise me because they wanted to knock off "black dick" from their bucket list when I was just looking for genuine emotional connection. Do you fear any time you date someone of another race whether or not they see you as a person or just your skin colour? My point being in all this, it is a privilege to not have to experience or even think about these things.

I'm not trying to attack white people or blame them for the sins of their ancestors but to act like white people don't have a leg up in western society is blinding yourself to the struggle of POC.

Why are POCs disproportionately represented in prison? Is it because we have lesser moral value? Are we just worse people by default? Or maybe there's something else to this.

I've also noticed a lot of people taking the concept of white privilege very personally. This is not about individual white people, this is a systematic issue. I'm not denying poor white people struggle but you still benefit from the systems. (See @GoodPersonEffed first reposne for some examples) Are you ever afraid of getting angry (when you are justified in being so) for fear of being labeled an angry white man? There are so many lived experiences I could reference but it would take forever. Do you know anyone who has been killed by police? I do. It's goes on and on. Also threads like this make me feel crazy. Am I just overreacting? Did it take me 6 years to get a promotion that it took my white colleagues 2 years to get? Am I just shit? This constant questioning of so many interactions in my life is just an ever present aspect of my life.

Here's a long satirical/informative look into systemic racism. He also touches on white privilege. I will forewarn you this guy is extremely snarky and if you're going into watching this video believing white privilege and systemic racism aren't real, you might feel attacked and offended. Because he's a bit of a dick about it lol. But he's not wrong.



Also I know I live in Canada and racism in the US is not a one to one comparison. But it still helps to elucidate how systemic racism or white privilege can function in any society. It's maybe the easiest example to cite in the world.

Let me finish by citing a Canadian example, to try to stop any pedandic arguments in this vein. The last residential school closed in Canada in 1996. Do you know what a residential school is?

"The school system was created for the purpose of removing Indigenous children from the influence of their own culture and assimilating them into the dominant Canadian culture, "to kill the Indian in the child." (from Wikipedia)

I'll say again, the last school closed in 1996. Less then 30 years ago. They would kidnap indigenous children to make them confirm to the "Canadian" (ie white) culture.

Please be kind but feel free to call me out where you think I'm wrong. But remember this is my lived experience and I'm just trying to find some middle ground here. Also I'm a very weak debater so I'm not even sure I'd be able to convince anyone further beyond the points I've tried to make in this post. Just a heads up. I've also agonized over this post for hours, rereading it over and over so please forgive any mistakes or typos I missed.

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

It's your way of patting yourself on the back.

Yes, virtue signalling is a form of narcissism in my opinion.

Have you ever consistently been the only member of your race in all of your classes growing up.

Some whites, especially in the South are the only members of their race in all their classes. Anyone who lives as a minority in a certain area can experience this. White immigrants from one country to another experience being a minority and being the only member of their ethnic group in all their classes. My friend's 14 year old nephew lives in Germany and he is the only Croat in the class, mixed in with Germans, Turks etc.

I'm not trying to attack white people or blame them for the sins of their ancestors but to act like white people don't have a leg up in western society is blinding yourself to the struggle of POC.

White people have created the Western society.

. I'm not denying poor white people struggle but you still benefit from the systems

How so? Can we get help through affirmative action or access any services more easily due to our skin color?

Oops, must have missed that way back when I became a mod. At this rate, give me....a few more years and I maybe I'll get there. Thank you for your patience.



Denying privileges and downplaying the struggles of others is in my opinion a form of racism too.

Is downplaying the struggle of many poor whites also a form of racism?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Yes, virtue signalling is a form of narcissism in my opinion.

So, by vulnerably revealing something really ugly I discovered about myself, I'm virtue signaling and narcissistic? But wait...you explained to me that I was suffering from deluded white guilt. Could you please find a consistent narrative about my inherent wrongness? I'm so confused about how you define me, I'm just totally off balance, because as we already figured out with teamwork, I don't understand myself unless you explain me to me. Looking forward to your clearing this up with your characteristic rapid altruism toward me. I'd like to know who I am before I go to sleep.

Wait...is it really sleep?? Am I defining that wrong, too? Please tell me!

How so? Can we get help through affirmative action or access any services more easily due to our skin color?

1. So...you wanted separation of European vs. American whiteness, but now it's "we"? Is there affirmative action in Croatia? Or have you applied for American citizenship and this is an anticipatory statement?

2. "We" don't need the assistance of affirmative action based on our skin color because we the doors are automatically open to whites. Affirmative action barely wedges it open for a few POCs to trickle in who otherwise wouldn't have gotten in at all, even with equal education, intelligence, and ability. If they were treated equally, affirmative action would not have been necessary. But silly me, of course POCs are automatically welcome to participate in the dominant social order and enjoy all of the benefits, just like they were for school integration, and at lunch counters, water fountains and public restrooms -- there was no need for civil rights legislation any more than for affirmative action. It's downright uppity to imply otherwise.

Edit: Oh yeah, and @foxdie is Canadian. @foxdie, does your country have an equivalent to affirmative action, or did I just respond to more bait?


I'd also like to say, here's me the the white women sticking up for a capable black man, and it reminds me of how white males had to speak to other white males to convince them to stop slavery and let women have the vote. So @foxdie and other people of color, I want you to know I've had your back this whole thread, and I said earlier I wanted to hear your voices, but I want you to know I'm not standing in front of you nor trying to explain you. I really do have your backs, I cannot speak in your voice, but whatever small amount of power I have, I gladly share to support you until people's ears are open to your voices, just as male ears are so often closed to women's voices and words -- another man can say the exact same thing and suddenly it's equal to God's truth, but if a woman says if, it's automatically wrong.

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

1. S...you wanted separation of European vs. American whiteness, but now it's "we"? Is there affirmative action in Croatia? Or have you applied for American citizenship and this is an anticipatory statement?

2. "We" don't need the assistance of affirmative action based on our skin color because we the doors are automatically open to whites. Affirmative action barely wedges it open for a few POCs to trickle in who otherwise wouldn't have gotten in at all, even with equal education, intelligence, and ability. If they were treated equally, affirmative action would not have been necessary. But silly me, of course POCs are automatically welcome to participate in the dominant social order and enjoy all of the benefits, just like they were for school integration, and at lunch counters, water fountains and public restrooms -- there was no need for civil rights legislation any more than for affirmative action. It's downright uppity to imply otherwise.

1. Yes, it is a "we" now because I sympathize with working class American whites and with Europeans who emmigrated to America.

2. Isn't affirmative action basically an implementation of racial quotas in regards to admission to universities etc. and therefore not based on achievements or abilities of the people it is supposed to be helping? I am for a merits based system and I believe that every person who enters the education system/workforce based only on the color of their skin is taking up the place of someone who deserved it by merit alone. The situation for POC is not the same today as it was 60 years ago and nobody is stopping POC to enter higher education and workforce based on merit and personal achievement alone.

 

[epic]

Do you think if developed countries like Germany or Japan become socialist that the economy will be good and since wealth gap will be lower most ppl will be relatively more happy?

I don't think people will be more happy. Wealth gap is a flawed measure for judging how well an economy is doing, per capita GDP is a much better measure Although per capita GDP is not the only economic indicator which should be looked at.

 

[foxdie]

Yes, virtue signalling is a form of narcissism in my opinion.


Some whites, especially in the South are the only members of their race in all their classes. Anyone who lives as a minority in a certain area can experience this. White immigrants from one country to another experience being a minority and being the only member of their ethnic group in all their classes. My friend's 14 year old nephew lives in Germany and he is the only Croat in the class, mixed in with Germans, Turks etc.

Okay, let say for the sake of argument I concede my point here. Could you address any of my other examples?

White people have created the Western society.

Big oof on this one. I don't even know where to start. What is even your point in saying this? So systematic discrimination is okay then?

How so? Can we get help through affirmative action or access any services more easily due to our skin color?

Is downplaying the struggle of many poor whites also a form of racism?

GPE took the words from my mouth. What do you think the point of affirmative action is? Why does it exist in the first place?

So, by vulnerably revealing something really ugly I discovered about myself, I'm virtue signaling and narcissistic? But wait...you explained to me that I was suffering from deluded white guilt. Could you please find a consistent narrative about my inherent wrongness? I'm so confused about how you define me, I'm just totally off balance, because as we already figured out with teamwork, I don't understand myself unless you explain me to me. Looking forward to your clearing this up with your characteristic rapid altruism toward me. I'd like to know who I am before I go to sleep.

Wait...is it really sleep?? Am I defining that wrong, too? Please tell me!




1. So...you wanted separation of European vs. American whiteness, but now it's "we"? Is there affirmative action in Croatia? Or have you applied for American citizenship and this is an anticipatory statement?

2. "We" don't need the assistance of affirmative action based on our skin color because we the doors are automatically open to whites. Affirmative action barely wedges it open for a few POCs to trickle in who otherwise wouldn't have gotten in at all, even with equal education, intelligence, and ability. If they were treated equally, affirmative action would not have been necessary. But silly me, of course POCs are automatically welcome to participate in the dominant social order and enjoy all of the benefits, just like they were for school integration, and at lunch counters, water fountains and public restrooms -- there was no need for civil rights legislation any more than for affirmative action. It's downright uppity to imply otherwise.

Edit: Oh yeah, and @foxdie is Canadian. @foxdie, does your country have an equivalent to affirmative action, or did I just respond to more bait?


I'd also like to say, here's me the the white women sticking up for a capable black man, and it reminds me of how white males had to speak to other white males to convince them to stop slavery and let women have the vote. So @foxdie and other people of color, I want you to know I've had your back this whole thread, and I said earlier I wanted to hear your voices, but I want you to know I'm not standing in front of you nor trying to explain you. I really do have your backs, I cannot speak in your voice, but whatever small amount of power I have, I gladly share to support you until people's ears are open to your voices, just as male ears are so often closed to women's voices and words -- another man can say the exact same thing and suddenly it's equal to God's truth, but if a woman says if, it's automatically wrong.

We do have an employment equity act in Canada which essentially functions as affirmative action.

And don't feel bad about speaking up, it is greatly appreciated! You are not standing in front of us, you are standing with us and never forget that! We need more voices like yours in the world. I do recognize that I benefit from male privilege so I understand where your coming from completely. Woman's voices are so often dismissed, even moreso for women of colour.

 

[whywere]

I am 64 years young, i mention the age factor only becasue of all I have seen through my years. money and the power that comes with it is 100% more destructive to humans evoluing and making this world better for all. I have been at companies where the "head honchos" had private elevators from their heated parking to their office, while the rest of us had a parking ramp and had to walk throught the cold to get to the building. Bonuses , stock options, private jets, limos, yep the works while we got 2% raises and the cost of benefits went up. for us it did NOT matter what color of skin, what language you spoke, nope did not matter. One was with the ahves or have nots period.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

1. Yes, it is a "we" now because I sympathize with working class American whites and with Europeans who emmigrated to America.

2. Isn't affirmative action basically an implementation of racial quotas in regards to admission to universities etc. and therefore not based on achievements or abilities of the people it is supposed to be helping?

1. So you changed sides for solidarity then, or was it to add more weight to existing discriminatory power with your whiteness, since there isn't enough? (Note to self: switch sides tomorrow, I'm contributing way too much to uppitiness, that ish needs to be scaled waaaaay back.)

2. Since you don't know, why don't you Google it and report your findings to the class?

I'm going to sleep now...if that's what it really is. I don't know since you didn't tell me. Kinda stressed about that, along with my newly revealed white guilt and narcissism. It's gonna be a rough night. Well, I assume it's night. I'm probably wrong about that, too.

I am 64 years young, i mention the age factor only becasue of all I have seen through my years. money and the power that comes with it is 100% more destructive to humans evoluing and making this world better for all. I have been at companies where the "head honchos" had private elevators from their heated parking to their office, while the rest of us had a parking ramp and had to walk throught the cold to get to the building. Bonuses , stock options, private jets, limos, yep the works while we got 2% raises and the cost of benefits went up. for us it did NOT matter what color of skin, what language you spoke, nope did not matter. One was with the ahves or have nots period.

I'm curious, how many POCs worked in the offices with you? What percentage? This doesn't include the cleaning crew. And how many of them were in management positions, and what percentage?

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

1. So you changed sides for solidarity then, or was it to add more weight to existing discriminatory power with your whiteness, since there isn't enough? (Note to self: switch sides tomorrow, I'm contributing way too much to uppitiness, that ish needs to be scaled waaaaay back.)

2. Since you don't know, why don't you Google it and report your findings to the class?

I'm going to sleep now...if that's what it really is. I don't know since you didn't tell me. Kinda stressed about that, along with my newly revealed white guilt and narcissism. It's gonna be a rough night. Well, I assume it's night. I'm probably wrong about that, too.

Have a good sleep, people of color will need your altruistic help and guidance tomorrow too.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

This is a genuine question, and maybe I'm overlooking something obvious, or perhaps deviating from the main topic, so let me know if I am: if white privilege really is a significant systemic problem, and I'm not saying it is or is not, then why is it that Asian americans (i.e. those of chinese, japanese, vietnamese, korean etc descent), lead all other ethnic groups, including white, in terms of education and median household income?
A significant proportion of asian people are also hired to work in scientific research, and top tech and communications companies.

Asian students are even required to get higher SAT scores than other ethnic groups to get into elite schools, yet are still the most successful demographic in terms of higher qualifications, proportionately.

Where is the white privilege which is oppressing people of asian descent (apart from having to get higher SAT scores than other groups to get into harvard)?

That being said, I think this new wave of identity politics is not useful for anyone. It divides and doesn't unite, by mentally conditioning people to see everything through the lens of race and gender. It's a zero-sum game.

Why can't we just treat people as people instead of constantly having to think about the racial or gender power dynamics of situations, like academia and increasingly the mainstream media, have been conditioning the populace to do?

However, I understand the value of trying to understand the world from other people's perspective, and of learning to check one's ego and its illusions, and question one's motivations in anything. Racism is just a symptom, and the disease is the nearly universal belief in humans that the ego really exists and has huge importance and all its pretentions to power must be satisfied.

Maybe I'm totally off with these remarks, and I'm bringing inherent biases and assumptions of which I'm not aware, in which case feel free to criticize or correct me.

I would also like to know what the OP understands by 'meaningful progress'.

money and the power that comes with it is 100% more destructive to humans evoluing and making this world better for all. I have been at companies where the "head honchos" had private elevators from their heated parking to their office, while the rest of us had a parking ramp and had to walk throught the cold to get to the building. Bonuses , stock options, private jets, limos, yep the works while we got 2% raises and the cost of benefits went up. for us it did NOT matter what color of skin, what language you spoke, nope did not matter. One was with the ahves or have nots period.

This is where the real issues lie, I feel.
I think that pure capitalism, especially crony capitalism and neoliberalism, is incompatible with real democracy and social progress.
Even though human nature is already corrupted and deficient, I feel that capitalism brings out the worst in it.
I'm not saying it should be gotten rid of totally, but a possible direction is something like the scandinavian welfare state system, with a mixed economy and highly unionized workforce.

Astonishing inequalities, lack of opportunities for any person near the bottom of the socioeconomic scale, the callous treatment of the poor, meaningless work.
These are all functions of extreme financial liberalization in an increasingly globalized world.
Offshoring of companies, social dumping, transnational virtual senates of investors and lenders which have huge leverage over national government policies through the control of capital flow, all contributing to undermine the power and incomes and job opportunities of the lower classes, regardless of ethnicity.
Identity politics is a diversion from this, I feel.

I tend to agree with richard wolff that the workplace itself needs to be democratized through worker self-directed enterprises (WSDEs).
Link to an article here if anyone is interested in reading more.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Do you think if developed countries like Germany or Japan become socialist that the economy will be good and since wealth gap will be lower most ppl will be relatively more happy?

I think so.
As an example, look at the scandinavian welfare state model, i.e. sweden, norway, finland, denmark.

They are socialist in the sense of redistributing wealth through relatively high taxes and having highly unionized workforces and universal healthcare, and they also happen to be at the top of quality of life indexes and world rankings.

 

[Xocoyotziin]

Its cool to be black as long as you adhere to behaviors dictated by white imperialists. Muslims, wear whatever hats and pray in whichever direction you like! The only thing that's truly abominable is not adhering to our economic structure. As long as you stay in line you can wear whichever costume you like and happily delude yourself into believing it's true diversity! But please read x y and z and never deviate from our conception of reality because then you're mentally ill, unless those deviations are caused by your religion that is literally identical to mine but because they differ in name we can fight holy wars so that we can pretend that we're justified in doing so.

Heavy sarcasm here but fuck everyone. Don't call me out on it or else I'll recontextualize your desperation to resist me and call you a terrorist.

 

[Fedrea]

I was super hesitant to comment on this thread and given the trajectory it's taken I think I was right. But I guess I'm a sucker for punishment so here I am lol. Please note, my tone in this is in no way accusatory and I'm am trying to approach this in as calm a manner as I can. I hope I don't regret this...

I am a POC (person of colour) in North America, Canada specifically. It is super frustrating and invalidating to see a thread full of white people claiming that white privilege doesn't exist. It is a completely ahistorical take. We're all suicidal, so maybe you can understand not having the energy or mental capacity to fight a fight you've been fighting your whole life. But I'll try to help you understand where I'm coming from. Also I'll freely admit that this thread is very triggering for me and I'm always emotional so please try to not be offended.

White privilege doesn't exist because poor white people or suicidal white people exist? Have you ever consistently been the only member of your race in all of your classes growing up. Have you had authority figures call you "boy" in front of your friends and family? Have you been called a nigger on the playground with no recourse? Have you been followed by security in almost every store you go in basically since you hit puberty? Do you get pulled over by the police a conspicuous amount of times in your life when just trying to go about your life? When I was 13 or 14 my stepdad had a long conversation with my about how I should interact with the police and how to make sure I didn't get hurt. I've had girls fetishise me because they wanted to knock off "black dick" from their bucket list when I was just looking for genuine emotional connection. Do you fear any time you date someone of another race whether or not they see you as a person or just your skin colour? My point being in all this, it is a privilege to not have to experience or even think about these things.

I'm not trying to attack white people or blame them for the sins of their ancestors but to act like white people don't have a leg up in western society is blinding yourself to the struggle of POC.

Why are POCs disproportionately represented in prison? Is it because we have lesser moral value? Are we just worse people by default? Or maybe there's something else to this.

I've also noticed a lot of people taking the concept of white privilege very personally. This is not about individual white people, this is a systematic issue. I'm not denying poor white people struggle but you still benefit from the systems. (See @GoodPersonEffed first reposne for some examples) Are you ever afraid of getting angry (when you are justified in being so) for fear of being labeled an angry white man? There are so many lived experiences I could reference but it would take forever. Do you know anyone who has been killed by police? I do. It's goes on and on. Also threads like this make me feel crazy. Am I just overreacting? Did it take me 6 years to get a promotion that it took my white colleagues 2 years to get? Am I just shit? This constant questioning of so many interactions in my life is just an ever present aspect of my life.

Here's a long satirical/informative look into systemic racism. He also touches on white privilege. I will forewarn you this guy is extremely snarky and if you're going into watching this video believing white privilege and systemic racism aren't real, you might feel attacked and offended. Because he's a bit of a dick about it lol. But he's not wrong.



Also I know I live in Canada and racism in the US is not a one to one comparison. But it still helps to elucidate how systemic racism or white privilege can function in any society. It's maybe the easiest example to cite in the world.

Let me finish by citing a Canadian example, to try to stop any pedandic arguments in this vein. The last residential school closed in Canada in 1996. Do you know what a residential school is?

"The school system was created for the purpose of removing Indigenous children from the influence of their own culture and assimilating them into the dominant Canadian culture, "to kill the Indian in the child." (from Wikipedia)

I'll say again, the last school closed in 1996. Less then 30 years ago. They would kidnap indigenous children to make them confirm to the "Canadian" (ie white) culture.

Please be kind but feel free to call me out where you think I'm wrong. But remember this is my lived experience and I'm just trying to find some middle ground here. Also I'm a very weak debater so I'm not even sure I'd be able to convince anyone further beyond the points I've tried to make in this post. Just a heads up. I've also agonized over this post for hours, rereading it over and over so please forgive any mistakes or typos I missed.

Thank you for this excellent post

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I don't understand what you mean by ideology, especially as it applies to my comment in particular

I can't speak for how wayfarer was using the term 'ideology', but if I could make a few remarks about it myself (sorry about the length).

I think ideology can find its way anywhere. Zizek has argued that ideology is not only an obscuring discourse used to push false and distorting ideas about the world for political and economic ends, it has especially become a subconscious phenomenon which actively represents ideas about the world through a language or even cultural practice. So in a way, because everyone uses language, everyone is trapped within ideological grids which carve the world up in certain ways. Most of the time we are not aware of these ideological grids. It would be the job of a discipline like philosophy to make us more aware of those grids, all the while guarding against the unconscious ideological presuppositions of whatever philosophical discourse is being used to do the unmasking.

Zizek has given this example to illustrate ideology finding its way into an apparently neutral and mundane setting: "A man comes into a restaurant. He sits down at the table and he says, 'Waiter, bring me a cup of coffee without cream.' Five minutes later, the waiter comes back and says, 'I'm sorry, sir, we have no cream. Can it be without milk?'"

So the black coffee changes according to the waiter's thought about it, through the prism of language. We may conceptualize coffee without milk and coffee without cream as two different things. Ideology, impacting how we subconsciously see the world through words and grammatical constructs, determines if we view black coffee as lacking cream or lacking milk, or as not lacking anything. Ok, there's nothing obviously political or radical in this example, but it shows how an ideology can filter down through language chunks and their interpretation even in an everyday setting, and alter someone's representation of the world.

Zizek has also argued that ideology can be found in apparently neutral and purely utilitarian cultural practices like toilet arrangement.
I'll just put one more quote, excuse the length and unsavory imagery:

"In a traditional German toilet, the hole into which shit disappears after we flush is right at the front, so that shit is first laid out for us to sniff and inspect for traces of illness. In the typical French toilet, on the contrary, the hole is at the back, i.e. shit is supposed to disappear as quickly as possible. Finally, the American (Anglo-Saxon) toilet presents a synthesis, a mediation between these opposites: the toilet basin is full of water, so that the shit floats in it, visible, but not to be inspected. [...] It is clear that none of these versions can be accounted for in purely utilitarian terms: each involves a certain ideological perception of how the subject should relate to excrement. Hegel was among the first to see in the geographical triad of Germany, France and England an expression of three different existential attitudes: reflective thoroughness (German), revolutionary hastiness (French), utilitarian pragmatism (English). In political terms, this triad can be read as German conservatism, French revolutionary radicalism and English liberalism. [...] The point about toilets is that they enable us not only to discern this triad in the most intimate domain, but also to identify its underlying mechanism in the three different attitudes towards excremental excess: an ambiguous contemplative fascination; a wish to get rid of it as fast as possible; a pragmatic decision to treat it as ordinary and dispose of it in an appropriate way. It is easy for an academic at a round table to claim that we live in a post-ideological universe, but the moment he visits the lavatory after the heated discussion, he is again knee-deep in ideology." (in 'the plague of fantasies')

To go back to the original point, I think it was mainly your use of the term 'whitesplaining' which could be seen as carrying ideological baggage.
I'm not sure if it serves a genuine epistemic purpose (in the same vein as 'mansplaining'), apart from its being used as a weapon by some to shut others up who don't have the right skin color to be able to have a valid opinion on certain issues (I am not saying this is what you were doing, as you were also applying it to yourself, I'm proposing that this is why it exists as a word in our discourse in general, the function of which is ideological).

 

[foxdie]

@worried_to_death the Asian American example you bring up I will freely admit is not a clear cut issue. I'd recommend looking up the "model minority" trope for reference as well as looking into the supreme court case regarding Asian students admissions in the US. Look into both sides, it's a pretty grey issue.

If you're interested in Dr. Wolff here is a link to an article he wrote in the relationship between capitalism and racism.

Why can't we just treat people as people instead of constantly having to think about the racial or gender power dynamics of situations, like academia and increasingly the mainstream media, have been conditioning the populace to do?

I would love to live in world like this but this hasn't been my lived experience. POCs are still getting discriminated against and women are harassed in the workplace in the daily. It wasn't the mainstream media that passed my POC colleagues over for promotions. It wasn't the mainstream media that told my female colleague to suck it up essentially when they we inappropriately touched by their superiors, it was my HR department.

I don't really know what else to say on this topic to be honest. People get very defensive like it's an attack on an individual when it's really a critique of a system. I've never successfully been able to convince anyone who holds these views that my life experience or that of my peer are genuine examples of white privilege and systemic racism. Maybe I am just shit, I don't know. This issue is nuanced and ironically not a black and white issue.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I'd recommend looking up the "model minority" trope for reference as well as looking into the supreme court case regarding Asian students admissions in the US. Look into both sides, it's a pretty grey issue.

I agree that the issue isn't clear cut, and the experiences and histories of different ethnic groups, especially in america, are different and diverse.
There may be more widespread subconscious bias and prejudice against black people than against east asians in america, for example, given the long history of slavery, jim crow laws, etc.

 

[kane]

I think the problem is maybe that it's been over-extended into an overarching theory of reality, through which everything must be seen. At base, ethnic majority privilege means not having to worry about being mistreated because of the colour of your skin. And that is meaningful. People are still targeted because of ethnicity, sometimes explicitly. Real hate crimes still happen. So not having to think about that is something. But it's far from everything.

You can still be poor, and pale, and find yourself more tangibly mistreated by society than someone who is wealthy and dark-skinned, due to numerous other factors. There are so many other 'privileges' that go unrecognised.

 

[Despondent]

White privilege exists and it's disgusting. I said what I said.

 

[Mistake of Nature]

The ability to ignore that white privilege exists or pretend that it doesn't actively oppress POC is white privilege. It's disheartening, but unsurprising, that there are several (presumably) white people here claiming that either white privilege isn't real or that it doesn't profoundly affect POC's lives.

Capitalism and systemic racism are two heads of the same beast. They interact with each other to create and maintain inequality. Yes, poor white people struggle, but poor Black people have even more challenges to overcome. White privilege doesn't mean that all white people have it good or that white people never struggle. It means that white people's race is not something that will likely hold them back in life as it does for many POC.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I can't speak for how wayfarer was using the term 'ideology', but if I could make a few remarks about it myself (sorry about the length).

I think ideology can find its way anywhere. Zizek has argued that ideology is not only an obscuring discourse used to push false and distorting ideas about the world for political and economic ends, it has especially become a subconscious phenomenon which actively represents ideas about the world through a language or even cultural practice. So in a way, because everyone uses language, everyone is trapped within ideological grids which carve the world up in certain ways. Most of the time we are not aware of these ideological grids. It would be the job of a discipline like philosophy to make us more aware of those grids, all the while guarding against the unconscious ideological presuppositions of whatever philosophical discourse is being used to do the unmasking.

Zizek has given this example to illustrate ideology finding its way into an apparently neutral and mundane setting: "A man comes into a restaurant. He sits down at the table and he says, 'Waiter, bring me a cup of coffee without cream.' Five minutes later, the waiter comes back and says, 'I'm sorry, sir, we have no cream. Can it be without milk?'"

So the black coffee changes according to the waiter's thought about it, through the prism of language. We may conceptualize coffee without milk and coffee without cream as two different things. Ideology, impacting how we subconsciously see the world through words and grammatical constructs, determines if we view black coffee as lacking cream or lacking milk, or as not lacking anything. Ok, there's nothing obviously political or radical in this example, but it shows how an ideology can filter down through language chunks and their interpretation even in an everyday setting, and alter someone's representation of the world.

Zizek has also argued that ideology can be found in apparently neutral and purely utilitarian cultural practices like toilet arrangement.
I'll just put one more quote, excuse the length and unsavory imagery:

"In a traditional German toilet, the hole into which shit disappears after we flush is right at the front, so that shit is first laid out for us to sniff and inspect for traces of illness. In the typical French toilet, on the contrary, the hole is at the back, i.e. shit is supposed to disappear as quickly as possible. Finally, the American (Anglo-Saxon) toilet presents a synthesis, a mediation between these opposites: the toilet basin is full of water, so that the shit floats in it, visible, but not to be inspected. [...] It is clear that none of these versions can be accounted for in purely utilitarian terms: each involves a certain ideological perception of how the subject should relate to excrement. Hegel was among the first to see in the geographical triad of Germany, France and England an expression of three different existential attitudes: reflective thoroughness (German), revolutionary hastiness (French), utilitarian pragmatism (English). In political terms, this triad can be read as German conservatism, French revolutionary radicalism and English liberalism. [...] The point about toilets is that they enable us not only to discern this triad in the most intimate domain, but also to identify its underlying mechanism in the three different attitudes towards excremental excess: an ambiguous contemplative fascination; a wish to get rid of it as fast as possible; a pragmatic decision to treat it as ordinary and dispose of it in an appropriate way. It is easy for an academic at a round table to claim that we live in a post-ideological universe, but the moment he visits the lavatory after the heated discussion, he is again knee-deep in ideology." (in 'the plague of fantasies')

To go back to the original point, I think it was mainly your use of the term 'whitesplaining' which could be seen as carrying ideological baggage.
I'm not sure if it serves a genuine epistemic purpose (in the same vein as 'mansplaining'), apart from its being used as a weapon by some to shut others up who don't have the right skin color to be able to have a valid opinion on certain issues (I am not saying this is what you were doing, as you were also applying it to yourself, I'm proposing that this is why it exists as a word in our discourse in general, the function of which is ideological).

I appreciate that you put a lot of thought and effort into this comment, and having similar academic and philosophical interests, you often write things I find applicable. In this case, I didn't. It didn't answer what I asked @Wayfaerer, and I didn't find any illumination about myself or my words or actions in the context of this thread.

Neo-Marxism had been brought up by that member in response to my asking, and implied that it's an ideology I'm perhaps subject to/controlled by and reifying, yet I've always disliked Marxism, I'm more Foucauldian and Barthesian (and your comment leans toward Barthesian, I just didn't find it applicable in this instance, I don't see the myth I'm purportedly buying into). I recall one professor who was quite into Marx and detested Foucault, and didn't want to make space for having a dialogue with me and Foucault, he just shoved us aside as long as we were together. I'm getting the same feeling here with the other member -- disdain and refusal to engage as long as I bring my ethics with me. I get the sense I'm being treated as if I've entered someone else's battle arena and am not being told what the layout, rules or weapons are, just attempted to be beaten up and left confused. There's at least one term for that: bad form.




Continuing the reply, but addressing the entirety of the thread and not just @worried_to_death

I note that the arena was set up by @StateOfMind, and she still has not responded to requests to clarify the boundaries of the arena in the title: what is progress or meaningful progress, which would have given focus to the discussion. Without focus, it's a melee and represents the ever-present melee in the US about whether or not abuse toward POCs exists, and whether it matters. The ideology that promotes this struggle is found in the US constitution and the Bill of Rights, in the invitation on the Statue of Liberty, and prior to all of that, in the French Revolution, in the Magna Carta, and in the Age of Reason. When the concept of individual rights was born, then the struggle ensued over which individuals get those rights; imperialism tends to say, "Not POCs." I've also studied post-colonialism, and the race struggle in the US is evidence of that: give up your cultural and racial self, buy into the dominant power's ideologies, and we'll get along just fine, because you know you want what we've got. Keep beating the shit out if each other like we taught you, and if you "rise above" to our level and be a good whatever we called you (it's different in every colonized and/or enslaved culture), then we'll let you benefit maybe, perhaps even reach high levels, but you'll never truly be one of us.

On a final note, east Asians have been brought up a lot in this thread, and I've given it consideration. First, let's not forget the US interment (read: concentration).camps of the Japanese during WWII (and don't forget the reservations for Native Americans, still going). When white folks are marginalized and mass imprisoned, I'll reconsider my stance about POCs being treated differently. Second, Asians have a few "advantages": comparable skin tone to Caucasians, and socio-cultural beliefs that promote self-sublimation of individuality and honoring hierarchical structures and those at higher levels in the hierarchies, even if there is abuse, dominance and oppression.

This thread...it's indicative of what I see wherever there is abuse, and what's happening in America: when the abused speaks up, the response of the entitled is, "How dare you, it's not that bad, you're not experiencing what you think you are, I have the right, I've done nothing wrong, and if you think you matter, there are plenty of others who do, too -- what about them and what about me? Can we please stop focusing on you? Your whining is getting on my nerves." And when the abused finally blows, they lose rights and privileges, they get punished. Enough is never enough until the dominant one says it is, and why would they do that? To them, sharing power is losing power; having equals means they're diminished, and more voices being heard means they lose speaking time.

Spoiler

 

[StateOfMind]

I note that the arena was set up by @StateOfMind, and she still has not responded to requests to clarify the boundaries of the arena in the title: what is progress or meaningful progress, which would have given focus to the discussion.

I'm a dude but never mind lol.
I posted this mainly to see how people thought about the subject so I kept the title relatively open.
Read some very interesting reply's (including yours) for which I am thankful.
I'm aware that racism is still a thing sadly, but in grand scheme of things I don't feel it contributes to as much suffering as political and economic corruption.
In my opinion the "race card" was served by the elites and propagated by the MSM to distract and to divide.