SaSu on BBC News

[LittleBlackCat]

If they block SaSu then I will have to go soon.. this place keeps me alive, which is the ironic thing. I'm able to be myself here and express my feelings freely.

It's my choice and mine alone to end my life whenever I choose. I really worry they are going to crack down on methods and items required.

If the BBC want to know why I'm suicidal (they can talk to me about this if they want) .. it's because of the absolute joke that is MH support in this country, the fact I can't leave my abusive relationship because there is nowhere for me to live (housing crisis) meaning I'd rather stay in my situation than live in a tent or if im lucky a mouldy rat infested flat. Scared to get ill because there's basically no healthcare anymore. Oh and a biggie (for me at least) the UK govt took my freedom of movement away. So I cannot ever escape this country. My dream was to move to Europe but this is impossible now.. I genuinely believe this would improve my MH. So thanks UK government.

 

[Seered Doom]

If they were willing to listen, they'd at least be able to have the metaphorical balls to actually interview us and be open-minded and utilize actual journalistic integrity, but I guess that practice has been long dead to them.

 

[epiousion]

Typical media nonsense. I wouldn't read much into it.

Yes, you can tell some members are very young, but being 18 doesn't suddenly make you allowed to CTB. Everyone has the universal right to die, it has no restrictions or clauses.

The 18th birthday is just a good place to mark as "the point when most people reach the decision-making capabilities of an adult", something that should absolutely be present in one's choice to CTB.

 

[randal_bond]

I'm not surprised this issue has been in the news. It's a strong story that attracts viewers. And that's all BBC is all about. I didn't watch a program in question and don't plan to. I know what I need and keep planning for it.

Publicity as this one is a reminder to all of us to be quiet about what we decided to do without involving ANYONE from real life, if we really are serious about CTB. It does look like for many people here CTB is rather a cry for help, and they want somebody to pay attention and help them. Unfortunately, it often is counter-productive.
CTB is a very lonely journey, and that's a bitter pill to swallow.

 

[epiousion]

Never let ANY information about your presence on this site fall into the hands of those who don't understand you.

 

[voyager]

I see Callie was autistic. Like a lot of us are.. Doubt they have done any advocacy in that regard even though she literally freaking cited it as a major reason behind her action.

We can't really blame relatives for being angry and unsympathetic towards this site. But grieving people are never the right people to.decide policy. Everything would be banned out of existence if that were so.

You're right of course, recent loss, grief, anger make a poor basis for rational decisions. But as for directing their anger towards this site and supposedly "easy" methods in the long run, I'm not sure I'd agree, in fact, I think this attitude is one of the main reasons their loved ones ultimately turned here and stopped talking to them, because they blocked them off. I'm not saying we effectively knew them better than their relatives did, but at least we'd listen to what they had to say.

As mentioned, Callie's mom wasn't downright hostile towards us in the past (not sure now), but rather felt sorry us trying to help each other. But then let the professionals have a go, yes? Callie was in and out of mental health services for years, but getting no where, and the cops even locked into her a police cruiser over night to stop her from killing herself. Callie told us why she eventually killed herself though, very eloquently and completely sane.

Shawn Shatto, another prominent case. Her parents went after this site, blaming us for her death, and I seem to recall that they even said things were looking up for her and she wanted to become a doctor. Well, according to Shawn she was working at an Amazon warehouse and sometimes even cleaning toilets, according to her, college was impossible due to her issues and she despised her bleak future. Again, completely sane.

Joe Nihill I already mentioned in the post you read. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. The mother is a complete lunatic. What kind of society would take her side when she's terrorising innocent people like @Rue89 for simply talking to her son one time? That on the other hand is not sane behaviour.

As for banning "easy" methods, to me there's no such thing. I'm sure there are somewhat impulsive suicides which may be easier with certain methods but on a whole I doubt it's that what gets people to do it. Personally, I wasn't afraid of the train when aged 24, was standing so close that I could feel the drag pulling me in. I didn't care for the consequences, just wanted it to stop. Ultimately, I didn't do it because I wasn't ready. Banning "easier" methods just leads to one thing and that is dragging it on, and on, and on, either into a lifetime of suffering or until people are so dead inside that they'll go for any method they can find, possibly with catastrophic consequences. Guess they were serious after all, huh.

 

[Seered Doom]

They don't seem to realize that censorship is only leading to more actions done behind the veil. They say they're not censuring enough when that can't be any further from the truth. Think of me crazy, I know many do. Allow me to say this; the more they try to hide, the more people will be morbidly curious of what's exactly being hidden. Going behind a veil like this reminds me of one very influential book that served as a warning if we have too much government surveillance and censorship. What was the name of it? Oh, 1984!

 

[lachrymost]

I dislike this mentality that adults need to stop doing things on the internet that may be inappropriate for children. It's a topic in fandom discourse, too. I want adult-only spaces online! The fact that children can and do access them can't really be helped, but it seems so wrong to censor the internet because of it.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

But as for directing their anger towards this site and supposedly "easy" methods in the long run, I'm not sure I'd agree, in fact, I think this attitude is one of the main reasons their loved ones ultimately turned here and stopped talking to them, because they blocked them off. I'm not saying we effectively knew them better than their relatives did, but at least we'd listen to what they had to say.

Actually I was referring to how they *feel* (and feelings aren't always perfectly sound as such). Their actions are a separate matter.

 

[brokeandbroken]

I've been listening to about it on the radio and here is a link to an article.

BBC News - 'Failure to act' on suicide website linked to 50 UK deaths

'Failure to act' on suicide website linked to 50 UK deaths

Families are angry at the lack of action to shut it, despite multiple concerns from police and coroners.

www.bbc.co.uk

Funny how these people won't look into the mirror and blame themselves. The fifty deaths were preventable if these families gave a shit about their family members. I'm not convinced family means anything to anyone anymore... Easier to blame the only support people have then themselves for not providing it. People are don't want easy solutions and that rarely works. If things were great it wouldn't exist.

 

[tiger b]

It seems that if you have a family relative who dies, suddenly you're an automatic expert on suicide, so here's the TV camera, fire away folks. Just like anyone who's ever gone to school automatically is an expert on education.

Also, far easier to leave the impression that a cruel bully gang took 'ar Kev and warped his mind than actually admit Kevin wanted to die and the help he was offered in irl was lacking or contributed to it.

And on the children theme - the internet was not invented for children. It was never intended as a surrogate parent.

 

[NeedAnEscape]

I do feel sorry for the families of course. So many say their loved one would still be alive if it weren't for this site. For one, I'm not sure- if they were that desperate, I expect they would have simply used a well known and brutal method like jumping. You don't need the internet for that...

The information is available elsewhere. One of the first places I found out about SN was a police report (of all things!) They had even provided a picture of the kit they had ordered off the dark web, including the antiemetics they used.

On the other hand though- maybe there loved one would still be here- but- would they be ok? Or, would they be desperately unhappy and suffering? Do they really have so much faith in things like the mental healthcare system- especially in the UK? Do they really think life is a breeze and young people have the most brilliant opportunities and futures ahead of them. (As always- the focus was on young people...)

I hate the way these articles are always so surface level. Why did these people kill themselves? How long had they been suicidal for? What were the support systems like around them? Had they had any kind of treatment? Why did it fail?

Why aren't they more concerned that people want to kill themselves in the first place?!! Especially young people. Young people killing themselves clearly indicates that they don't want to be a part of the world that has been created for them. Why do you think that is? I wish a journalist would consider that one day.

My Mum died of natural causes when I was very young. When I used to get upset, my Dad would say- 'You couldn't wish her back as she was at the end. She was in so much pain. It would be selfish to wish her back in that state.' I guess families of suicides just don't understand how much pain that person was in to enable them to consider suicide. Maybe they truly think their loved one could have recovered. I wonder how likely that was though. Would it really not bother them that their loved one was in terrible pain- so long as they were still alive?

Besides that- yes- sites like these maybe give us the detail so that an attempt may be more likely to succeed. Again- would they prefer the alternative? We only maim ourselves? Is any form of life really preferable in their eyes?

Still- it doesn't help with the act itself. They can all be reassured that people are still taking an enormous risk when they attempt. Seeing as everything is so restricted- we have no idea if what we've purchased will do the job. It will probably still be terrifying and painful. That will still be enough to deter people. And others will fail with possibly horrible consequences. But- that's ok is it? They're still alive.

As predicted- they also only focus on demonizing the site- saying how everyone is encouraging everyone else to CTB. So many people here claim they are still alive because of this site. Because of the sense of community and support here. They seem happy to take that away without providing an alternative. Where else on the internet can we speak about suicide openly? Is that what they really want? To ban all talk of it in the hopes that will make it go away? To ensure people can only talk about it on helplines? Who are already overwhelmed and from what I've heard- are only really interested if you are about to attempt.

What I feel confident will happen will be that people- including minors will still kill theselves but- if they do manage to take the site down, they will feel utterly isolated and afraid before they do it.

A while back, a Mum of a daughter who had CTB came on here. She was incredible. She was actually grateful that her daughter had found some comfort at the end. She was so brave and understanding.

I could completely understand if their son or daughter was being bullied or coerced into it but I'd argue- that doesn't happen here. Plus- sorry but you don't just stumble onto a site discussing suicide thinking it was Facebook. I wonder if they think a site full of platitudes instead would have 'saved' their loved one. People come here to get away from that. Why can't they see that?

It's easier to blame SaSu for their deaths, rather than hold a government or an institution responsible. Pro-lifers cannot comprehend what our suffering is like, so they assume that something else must have caused it. Not all of it comes from a place of malice. They just cannot understand that a loved one would genuinely want to end their own lives. So, they turn to SaSu for something surface-level to blame. But, like you've stated, pro-lifers miss the important questions. We all have our reasons for venturing into this forum. Nobody decided to join this forum because they are content with their lives. They came to find something -- answers, an escape, a community, peace, whatever it may be.

Taking this site away won't stop suicide from happening. At least, on this forum, people can find peace in their final moments. Pro-lifers always see suicide as a violent mistake, that people needed to do xyz to fix their lives and save themselves. We came here because we are out of options, because there's no way out of our misery.

Mental health struggles have become more vocal lately, in the aftermath of the pandemic. More than ever, people want to hide these issues and make us go away. Everyone talks about the mental health crisis and how it must be fixed. But, what's the solution? Locking us all up for experiencing misery? Overwhelming an already-overwhelmed system? The 'solutions' are just ways to shut us up and stigmatize suicide more than it already has been.

I agree with everything you've said and more. Pro-lifers will never understand us.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I dislike this mentality that adults need to stop doing things on the internet that may be inappropriate for children. It's a topic in fandom discourse, too. I want adult-only spaces online! The fact that children can and do access them can't really be helped, but it seems so wrong to censor the internet because of it.

I do really feel like this too. I wonder if putting parental locks on devices would prevent a site like this from being accessed. I expect kids these days can work out how to get around them though. Do parents really not realise their child is so unhappy that they are considering taking there own life? (Maybe- mine didn't and I'd say mine were actually good parents overall.) You do have to wonder though- if it was strictly adults only here- maybe even older adults- 24+, would they care as much?

It really annoys me that people like that Tantacrul guy thinks it should be up to the (very pessimistic and depressed) members here to push younger people towards recovery. I'd argue that we do nudge people of all ages towards recovery if it still looks viable for them. But- we're not therapists! Or life coaches. We're struggling ourselves. It shouldn't be up to us to fill the gap of supporting these youngsters because they clearly can't find that support elsewhere! Why can't one of these journalists cover that? That's the real story here. Why aren't they asking themselves why people come here in the first place?

It might be initially to find methods but people stay because of the sense of support, community and openness I would argue. They come here to talk because if they try and do it elsewhere, they get met with platitudes that serve to shut them down; disgust, hatred and emotional blackmail because people can't cope with the shock of potentially losing them; and in the very worst scenario- they can be sectioned!

I wish they'd stop treating suicidal people of all ages like we are all acting impulsively or- out of character. Or- that we are so disconnected from ourselves that we have become so impressionable as to be lead towards suicide by an online forum. (That we likely searched really hard for in the first place!) I actually find it really insulting the way pro-lifers clearly judge us to be dumb.

 

[tiger b]

The minute the argument about "we must protect the children" comes out, regardless of validity, the public 'debate' is lost. What's the first argument that's trotted out when teachers dare to complain about condition or go on strike? It's worked for years.

 

[NeedAnEscape]

I do really feel like this too. I wonder if putting parental locks on devices would prevent a site like this from being accessed. I expect kids these days can work out how to get around them though. Do parents really not realise their child is so unhappy that they are considering taking there own life? (Maybe- mine didn't and I'd say mine were actually good parents overall.) You do have to wonder though- if it was strictly adults only here- maybe even older adults- 24+, would they care as much?

It really annoys me that people like that Tantacrul guy thinks it should be up to the (very pessimistic and depressed) members here to push younger people towards recovery. I'd argue that we do nudge people of all ages towards recovery if it still looks viable for them. But- we're not therapists! Or life coaches. We're struggling ourselves. It shouldn't be up to us to fill the gap of supporting these youngsters because they clearly can't find that support elsewhere! Why can't one of these journalists cover that? That's the real story here. Why aren't they asking themselves why people come here in the first place?

It might be initially to find methods but people stay because of the sense of support, community and openness I would argue. They come here to talk because if they try and do it elsewhere, they get met with platitudes that serve to shut them down; disgust, hatred and emotional blackmail because people can't cope with the shock of potentially losing them; and in the very worst scenario- they can be sectioned!

I wish they'd stop treating suicidal people of all ages like we are all acting impulsively or- out of character. Or- that we are so disconnected from ourselves that we have become so impressionable as to be lead towards suicide by an online forum. (That we likely searched really hard for in the first place!) I actually find it really insulting the way pro-lifers clearly judge us to be dumb.

It's not just that we're stupid. We're all 'victims' of the tragedy that is suicide. In our deaths, our agency is taken away from us. We're looked down upon with pity, as people cry about the mental health crisis. But, in the next breath, pro-lifers advocate for shutting down SaSu and locking us up like animals. Just for having a mental illness, we are seen as 'dangerous' by society, when statistics show that we are more likely to be harmed, than to hurt. If they genuinely cared about us, they would try to understand us. They would advocate for increased support and resources. They wouldn't stigmatize us or fear us. But, in the twisted world we live in, pro-lifers treat us in the opposite way we want to be treated.

SaSu, we must stick together and stand up to this bullshit.

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

I've been listening to about it on the radio and here is a link to an article.

BBC News - 'Failure to act' on suicide website linked to 50 UK deaths

'Failure to act' on suicide website linked to 50 UK deaths

Families are angry at the lack of action to shut it, despite multiple concerns from police and coroners.

www.bbc.co.uk

What a load of Shit !!!!
Lets NOT try to improve peoples lives, just make them suffer longer by taking away their support system and means to exit peacefully.
If life wasn't so shitty people wouldn't want to die.
Also.... The BBC didn't uncover anything new about who started SS. It was already known.
Meanwhile... In the U.S.
Another mass shooting that NO ONE will do anything about !!!
18 dead .... Damn .... I'm always in the wrong place at the wrong time.
My luck I wouldn't die, just be wounded for an even shittier life.

 

[tiger b]

Reports that the Chinese, Iranian and North Korean embassies have sought inspiration from the UK, the world leader in internet '(in)security' have yet to be established...

The bill, if anyone's interested. I'll wait until Nov 6, that seems to be a day of some reckoning.

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3137

 

[Seered Doom]

Reports that the Chinese, Iranian and North Korean embassies have sought inspiration from the UK, the world leader in internet '(in)security' have yet to be established...

The bill, if anyone's interested. I'll wait until Nov 6, that seems to be a day of some reckoning.

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3137

Considering what's around the 5th of November, I call that ironic timing

 

[voyager]

Actually I was referring to how they *feel* (and feelings aren't always perfectly sound as such). Their actions are a separate matter.

Yes, and I acknowledged that in my first sentence, but if you think this *feel* justifies years of permanent irrational behaviour, then yea, I disagree. If their relatives hadn't crossed paths with this site the media would've long forgotten themy by now, they seldom report on suicides anyway, and the parents would've had to find another scapegoat. That's all there's to it, really.

 

[Seered Doom]

Most news coverages don't cover suicides unless it happens to little kids or famous people sadly. Your average person will not have their suicide reported on the news.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

but if you think this *feel* justifies years of permanent irrational behaviour,

I guess it's a good thing I never said that. Understanding doesn't constitute condoning or excusing anyways.

People (speaking generally) here can be as quick to make assumptions about the relatives as the relatives are about the members here.

 

[voyager]

Actually I was referring to how they *feel* (and feelings aren't always perfectly sound as such).

but if you think this *feel* justifies years of permanent irrational behaviour

I guess it's a good thing I never said that.

We can't really blame relatives for being angry and unsympathetic towards this site.

Well, you kinda did, and I even agreed with you on most relatives' initial reaction, valid or not, but certainly not on a permanent basis for years. That is not sane behaviour and in no way excused by loss or grief.

People (speaking generally) here can be as quick to make assumptions about the relatives as the relatives are about the members here.

Not necessarily. For my part I merely called out those I know full well were/are trying to harm this site. They literally terrorised members here. Posting real life pictures, contact information (both for @mahakaliSS_MahaDurga), screenshotting everything they said and did, ridiculing them, egging them on to kill themselves, taking delight in their fear when going through ctb (@Rue89). It was all on social media at the time. They got banned several times on twitter for this behaviour and on here, but would continuously sneak in again trying to cause more trouble. These are some really nasty pieces of work and no way in hell can normal grief explain or excuse such behaviour. The founders were also doxxed through an NYT article and resigned as a consequence, and it's obvious who the instigators were, because they too were named in the article, but as impartial interviewees, and it's the same people we can't really blame, as you say.

I do accept that you (now) mean it broadly, but you did quote my post and thereby defended those I specifically mentioned and if you didn't mean them, then please prove where anyone here has ever attacked a relative of anyone without previous provocation, but in light of the aforementioned, could you even blame anyone here for making such assumptions? Let's face it, stating that most relatives/society fail suicidals isn't even an assumption but plain fact, and perhaps the main reason why their anger is so focused on here.

For what it's worth, you weren't here back then and are maybe seeing this for the first time, so if you want we can drop this.

Edit: Added @mahakaliSS and final assumption.

 

[TraumaEscapee:)]

I've been listening to about it on the radio and here is a link to an article.

BBC News - 'Failure to act' on suicide website linked to 50 UK deaths

'Failure to act' on suicide website linked to 50 UK deaths

Families are angry at the lack of action to shut it, despite multiple concerns from police and coroners.

www.bbc.co.uk

I did see that on the news. I knew immediately which site they was talking about. It didn't bother me.

Kinda funny that they would rather blame a website thats helping people die peacfully rather than the atorcious uk mental health services, treatment of LGBTQ individuals by the goverment, cost of living and NHS treatment of cronic illnesses and a host of other problems that have been spiriling in british society

To be honest if it wasn't for this website I wouldn't be here. What's not mentioned is that this website keeps people alive aswell. It enables people to divulge their feelings and thoughts without judgement which in turn improves mental health.

 

[chinadoll]

I've been listening to about it on the radio and here is a link to an article.

BBC News - 'Failure to act' on suicide website linked to 50 UK deaths

'Failure to act' on suicide website linked to 50 UK deaths

Families are angry at the lack of action to shut it, despite multiple concerns from police and coroners.

www.bbc.co.uk

Yeah, found SaSu through this

 

[Blurry_Buildings]

Can confirm I'm killing myself because of the state of the bbc

How could you say that about the USA's number 1 most trusted news source?! I am shocked and mildly appalled.

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

Every single one of these articles are a joke, if you actually wanted to stop the site you wouldn't talk about it instead of giving it free promotion.

I just want to highlight a few things because I find them personally ridiculous.

There's the collage of 9 people who visited the forum with their full names. Has nobody considered that they almost definitely didn't want to be used on a terribly written article for pure sympathy points? In my eyes it's very disrespectful to the dead, I'd be rolling in my grave if I was ever featured in one of these.


Three days they waited outside his house! He doesn't even have anything to do with the forum anymore.

This entire article just feels so wrong and so misguided. They say they did their research but haven't done their research on these types of articles in the past spiking registry queues and having the opposite effect.

I'm not familiar with UK law but that definitely feels like stalking to me. The cameraman who filmed Lamarcus definitely felt emotionally charged just the fact they waited 3 days for a minute video is just absurd to me.

"We're in Huntsville, Alabama and that, we think, is where Lemarcus Small lives. We've been waiting here all day and seen no sign at all, but we really want to try to talk to him. "

We wait into night and for two more full days. Nothing. Until suddenly there he is. At last, Lamarcus Small.

Note: The camera points to Lamarcus while positioned in a bush.

"Hi Lamarcus, how are you? I'm Angus from the BBC. I want to talk to you about the suicide forum you set up. You know hundreds of people have died after going on that. Children are even going on that. Have you got anything to say to the relatives of the dead?"

Lamarcus now shuts the front door.

"Lamarcus, surely you've got the guts to come out and talk to me?" (silence for around 5 seconds) "So it looks like Lamarcus has no remorse, no regret and nothing to say to the relatives of the dead."


Sounds like a documentary being narrated by David Attenborough.

Here on Planet Suicide we cautiously wait for the ever elusive Notwannaby in it's habitat.
Our crew has been stalking our victim for over 3 whole days, just for a 3 minute video of this fantastic creature.
Not much is known about them. We just can't understand the many reasons why they choose not to exist.... Other than crippling health, financial issues, mental health, wage slavery, crippling fear of being in public, bullied on facebook and twitter, chronically poor or just seeing a lifetime of mindfuckery... choose to end it.
One just can't understand what reasons that this creature could possibly have to CTB ???

 

[voyager]

Sounds like a documentary being narrated by David Attenborough.

Had to laugh at that too, but it actually reminded me more of a satirical caricature of a sensationalist reporter. Think the "Scary Movies" or somthing like that. Reporting live from the scene; "One teenager was found dead today... *teenagers in background disturb the reporter with waving and rude gestures*, reporter pulls gun and shoots another kid, "Two teenagers were found dead today...."

As for reality: Can't believe people actually take such reporting quality seriously.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Well, you kinda did, and I even agreed with you on most relatives' initial reaction, valid or not, but certainly not on a permanent basis for years. That is not sane behaviour and in no way excused by loss or grief.

No, I didn't. I said we can't blame relatives "for being angry and unsympathetic". That does not imply any way of expressing those feelings, nothing beyond merely having those feelings. People will feel what they feel; actions are what matters (which was not what I had in mind). You read more into it. Besides, there are more relatives affected than the contingent of relatives who mobilized against this site. I have seen sentiments expressed to the effect that they have no right to feel angry or even genuine confusion as to why people oppose this site. And yes I am familiar with the history of this site.

I do accept that you (now) mean it broadly, but you did quote my post and thereby defended those I specifically mentioned and if you didn't mean them, then please prove where anyone here has ever attacked a relative of anyone without previous provocation, but in light of the aforementioned, could you even blame anyone here for making such assumptions? Let's face it, stating that most relatives/society fail suicidals isn't even an assumption but plain fact, and perhaps the main reason.

I meant everything I said broadly from the beginning. You can accuse me of lack of clarity but don't accuse me of backtracking to save face. The first part of my comment was responding to your comment, the second part was a general statement defending the right of the bereaved to feel what they feel (a right often challenged), which related to the thread as a whole and to a perennial issue affecting this site. Even if it is true that most people are failed assumptions are still sloppy thinking that should not be coddled no matter how understandable is why we people make them (and we are all susceptible to them). I get why you want me to provide receipts but I'm not going to go digging looking for specific comments. As you can see by my stats I have been an active participant on the forum for a while (as well as on the Reddit incarnation) and this is what I have observed. There is an undercurrent of immaturity here in how people approach the topic of suicide and I find it troubling. And yes I do consider this place my home of sorts and won't hesitate to defend it. But I stand by the idea that we all should strive to avoid intellectual laziness and as an intellectual and emotional minority we have more of a burden to do so. Unfair, but that's the way it is.

Do you see what I mean?

But I don't want to quarrel with you.

 

[NoHorizon]

Broadband providers block suicide website linked to 50 deaths

Bereaved families had asked internet providers to block the forum, following a BBC investigation.

www.bbc.co.uk

Sorry if this has already been posted elsewhere (couldn't see it had). It's been blocked by two ISPs, but only when their safety filter is on. That sounds fair enough to be honest as adults are unlikely have that feature activated.

 

[RainAndSadness]

I responded to some points of the BBC article.

It's time to address the BBC...

So the BBC wrote an article about us a few days ago and I decided to respond to some questionable claims. But I want to point out right away I'm not going to address the claim that we're pro-suicide in this thread. I'm working on a thread right now, parallel to this thread, deconstructing that...

sanctioned-suicide.net