Discussion Found a Reddit thread regarding legality of traveling to Switzerland for Dignitas (UK based)

[TAW122]

Disclaimer: Before I begin this thread, I want to say that IANAL (I am not a lawyer) and this is just a thread I found on Reddit fairly recently that discusses about whether one can travel to Dignitas from the UK without interference, obstruction, or impingement on one's freedom of movement. I am also based in the US, so that thread may not necessarily be applicable to me.

Recently, I just came across a Reddit thread that is about a user who has a degenerative disease (MND – Motor Neuron Disease) that would eventually erode said individual's physical capacity to do anything and there are a few users in that thread (they may/not be lawyers or barristers, but common everyday layperson) that have responded and here are a few examples in the quotes below:

A post by u/NortonCommando850 says:

It's against the law in Britain to assist someone to die, but no-one would have the right to prevent you from going to another country to do this, even if they knew that was your intention.

Another quote by u/DinosaurInAPartyHat says:

Nobody can stop you in or from the UK. There have been high profile cases of people leaving the UK to do this. If you're concerned about them taking your passport, hide it. Don't tell them exactly when you're going etc. The police only interfere in suicide for immediate attempts...as in you're on the bridge, looking over the edge - and you're in the UK. Your bridge will be a legal one in Switzerland and I hope gives you the resolution you need.

Also, another reply in quote by u/tardbanana says:

Nobody has a general right to prevent you going to Switzerland for *whatever reason* you want. They have no legal right to retain your passport, and you can't be detained (that would be false imprisonment). The only route here is via the Mental Health Act, but you'd need to be suffering from a mental disorder and it can only be instigated by a medical professional or the police; neither are going to get involved in this. This is not advice in any way shape or form as to what you do, but is what i believe the current legal position to be.

While these users answered the OP's question and thread, it does bring some assurance for UK citizens whom are looking towards going to Switzerland for assisted death, medical aid in dying, to die peacefully some assurance, I'd like to hear what others on SaSu think. What are your thoughts on this? I personally don't know about any US law that will forbid another citizen or any authority/third party/entity in the US to prevent an individual from freedom of travel, especially if it is related to medical assistance in dying or assisted death. Maybe someone might know? @locked*n*loaded

Also, I'm going to tag @Forever Sleep as I believe she is an UK citizen so she may know more specifically about these things.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I don't know specifics. Not being eligible for assisted dying myself, it's not something I've looked in to fully.

UK citizens have used assisted dying clinics though- certainly. Suicide itself has been legal here since the 60's. Prohibition of assisting suicide though is the issue. So- that does presumably put a person who accompanies the person dying at risk. Cruel really, seeing as I think some clinics insist that someone is present with the person- to identify them before and after- as it were.

I think the press have drummed up fears of the relatives/ loved ones that accompanied them being at risk of prosecution- for assisting a suicide- as you mentioned. But, I don't know of any cases actually going to court. I don't keep up with the news though so, there are likely to be more knowledgeable UK people here than me.

I think there would also be an outcry if police went after grieving relatives. To even be eligible for VAD, I imagine the person would have been suffering massively. To then persecute their loved ones I don't imagine would go down well at all.

There have been recent cases where two UK adults in their 40's and 50's went to Pegasos, without their families knowledge and those families are kicking up a hell of a stink. So, that's another issue. Families insisting they be notified.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

I'll, also, preface this posting with IANALE (I Am Not A Lawyer Either. I know of no US law that prevents a person's freedom of travel. That being said, if someone is on parole, or probation, for certain violations, or even awaiting trial, there are provisions in the law that bar people from leaving a state, or even a jurisdiction in some cases, until probation, parole, or trial has ended. I would *suppose* that if someone were the legal ward of someone else, there may, also, be provisions in law that control a person's movement to some extent. And, kind of, as an aside, if you're on that dreaded Terrorist Watchlist, you may have trouble getting a flight to Switzerland to begin with (damn that Patriot Act).

You know, the way the law works here in the US is that laws are interpretive, always being challenged as to what was "really" meant by the lawmakers who wrote them. It just takes one prosecutor with an idea, perhaps an agenda, to challenge a law's original intent and "reimagine" what a law really means. I can see one of these overzealous prosecutors one day taking assisted suicide laws, as they are crafted now, and trying to apply them to someone who merely accompanies a person to, say, Switzerland, to end their life. Or, maybe, someone who gives someone the money for a plane ticket to get to Switzerland. Maybe a prosecutor will decide to go after a person who pays for another's Dignitas fee. Or, someone who helps fill out the paperwork for another. Who knows? Ofc, there are checks and balances on this kind of thing, but often, by the time it all goes through the system, someone has been ruined financially due to the cost of defending themselves.

 

[TAW122]

Thanks for both of you all's responses @Forever Sleep @locked*n*loaded

As for the UK, I just reference them as an general idea of what to expect since there are similarities between the UK and US in terms of Mental Health laws and such.

As for the US, yes given how we are in a really unprecedented time with various challenges and unpredictability with the current state of affairs (around the nation and in the world), I suppose things can vary wildly. As far as detainment, given the things that are mentioned, I don't think I would personally have issues with freedom of movement as none of the restrictions apply to me and I'm a law abiding citizen who has never gotten in trouble with the law. Also, exploring Dignitas is just another possible option even if it may be far or hypothetical for now. It doesn't hurt to know more now even if I never consider or choose that option, it just adds an extra bit of awareness in the (rare) event that I do. Most likely I'll CTB within the borders (of the US).

 

[looking4partner]

The people that probably most deserve to access this option are the ones who are not able to travel on their own :(

I have a condition that other people have traveled to Dignitas because of. And another person with it contacted Nitschke to raise awareness of the diagnosis and promote right-to-die laws. I have no idea how they were able to get there on their own.

And I think if someone from another state (such as the U.S.) who supports the decision travels there with you to help you, they can be arrested as soon as they enter back into the U.S. :(

 

[Tired_birth_1967]

Just a silly observation: I am always amazed at how we do not have access to a dignified death. People die every day in all sorts of ways. Violence, accidents, illnesses, lack of money for hospitals, treatment or medicine... Death is a common event. It only becomes uncommon when we try to do it ourselves. Suddenly death becomes prohibited by law, by society, etc. However, no country cares when it sends its soldiers to die in wars. In this case life is not important, there is no persecution of any pro-lifer, etc. Human hypocrisy has no limits.

 

[tormentedhusk]

And, kind of, as an aside, if you're on that dreaded Terrorist Watchlist, you may have trouble getting a flight to Switzerland to begin with (damn that Patriot Act).

Thankfully that wouldn't be an issue, as in Europe you can just take the train.

 

[tiredoflife2]

I emailed them I had some horrible replies and I won't be contacting them again. They seemed more concerned about what my family would think of my decision even though I informed them that they had abused me and we where estranged, really inappropriate, they kept saying I was relatively young at 42. So yes maybe they only take over 50s.

 

[doneforlife]

I emailed them I had some horrible replies and I won't be contacting them again. They seemed more concerned about what my family would think of my decision even though I informed them that they had abused me and we where estranged, really inappropriate, they kept saying I was relatively young at 42. So yes maybe they only take over 50s.

Sorry for asking. What is it you suffer from? If its terminal, age doesn't matter. Also, if you are estranged and have no contacts with your family, it must be very difficult to manage yourself from whatever you are suffering from! Hope there is someone with you to take care of you. I don't know, but if you have kids or spouse, it's better to notify them atleast , even if you don't want them by your side. I am not sure, but organizations need family's consent I guess. Also in case your family has abused you and doesn't want your wellbeing, they can just be notified, but need not be involved. The organisations respect your autonomy.

 

[tiredoflife2]

Sorry for asking. What is it you suffer from? If its terminal, age doesn't matter. Also, if you are estranged and have no contacts with your family, it must be very difficult to manage yourself from whatever you are suffering from! Hope there is someone with you to take care of you. I don't know, but if you have kids or spouse, it's better to notify them atleast , even if you don't want them by your side. I am not sure, but organizations need family's consent I guess. Also in case your family has abused you and doesn't want your wellbeing, they can just be notified, but need not be involved. The organisations respect your autonomy.

No they dont need families consent for an autonomous sovereign individual with a sound mind, that's ridiculous. What about people who are physically and sexually abused by their families?

And notifying your next of kin or significant other is just that, notifying them. It should not impact or override the individual choice in making their decision or Pegasos.

Also, there are plenty of lonely, disabled people who dont have any external help or assistance, don't be so ignorant. You can find out for yourself a few clicks away on Reddit. It sounds like you work for Pegasos.

 

[doneforlife]

No they dont need families consent for an autonomous sovereign individual with a sound mind, that's ridiculous. What about people who are physically and sexually abused by their families?

And notifying your next of kin or significant other is just that, notifying them. It should not impact or override the individual choice in making their decision or Pegasos.

Also, there are plenty of lonely, disabled people who dont have any external help or assistance, don't be so ignorant. You can find out for yourself a few clicks away on Reddit. It sounds like you work for Pegasos.

Sorry if I hurt your sentiments. I am aware of lonely, disabled people. I was asking as a concern for someone suffering. Also, no I don't work for any of those orgs. I was just laying out what I know. Again, I might not be right with my information. I am also not sure what decision those orgs take if one is abused and hence estranged from family. Probably it's more of a case by case basis. Again sorry for your suffering..

 

[gregisss]

I've sent a lot of papers to Dignitas in 2015 , saying my bipolar disorder ruined my life.

They didn't accept to help me.

 

[tiredoflife2]

I've sent a lot of papers to Dignitas in 2015 , saying my bipolar disorder ruined my life.

They didn't accept to help me.

They're cruel

 

[wham311]

They're cruel

Is your disability physical?


Sucks mental illness isn't accepted. Or poverty, or really just whatever you want. I'm unemployable but I have somehow managed to make enough money for this, it just sucks.

 

[tiredoflife2]

Is your disability physical?


Sucks mental illness isn't accepted. Or poverty, or really just whatever you want. I'm unemployable but I have somehow managed to make enough money for this, it just sucks.

Well I've got dyspraxia and autism, and now I have got a physical disability in my hip. It is wrong, if you're not rich in this world you need to work and mental health makes that really difficult.

I don't know what the answer is, I guess I will have to research the most reliable methods as best I can with the least suffering and chances of survival, because I can't live much longer like this. I am 42 and they kept saying I was relatively young. They might take you if you're older.

Sorry if I hurt your sentiments. I am aware of lonely, disabled people. I was asking as a concern for someone suffering. Also, no I don't work for any of those orgs. I was just laying out what I know. Again, I might not be right with my information. I am also not sure what decision those orgs take if one is abused and hence estranged from family. Probably it's more of a case by case basis. Again

Sorry if I hurt your sentiments. I am aware of lonely, disabled people. I was asking as a concern for someone suffering. Also, no I don't work for any of those orgs. I was just laying out what I know. Again, I might not be right with my information. I am also not sure what decision those orgs take if one is abused and hence estranged from family. Probably it's more of a case by case basis. Again sorry for your suffering..

That's ok, yes it probably is case by case but they made me feel worse so I wouldn't recommend them if someone is struggling mentally.