Discussion Reincarnation dilemma

[UnluckyYogi]

I read a book by a Buddhist teacher who had been struck by chronic illness. She said that the positive in enduring illness is that you are in the throes of clearing karma. But what if you cant endure it? If the suffering is so great and has so many layers that you are suffering on multiple fronts. That even the life/home situation you are in is causing you suffering. I still wonder how this can be reflecting a karma of someone I believe is not so awful, or been so awful in previous lifetimes, that they earnt this. So then are we really taking what must be an immense karmic debt and compounding it with more through ctb?

I can go along with the concept of continuing the journey where we left off if we terminate early. But if we havent coped with this level of suffering this time, we're unlikely to again.

And where does the concept of a self-organising universe come in? Everything is interactive and outcomes emerge from the complex whole. So its not just our actions we are wearing the consequences of. As someone said they whether something is viewed positively or negatively is partly circumstantial, but also what you do is highly interdependent with others actions, locally and non-locally. Quantum physics talks to entanglement and non-locality. Many of its concepts overlap those of spiritual traditions. We are a giant information store (cf. the book Science and the Alashic field) interacting, co-creating futures and sharing experiences. If, as many traditions talk to, we are One, then we are simply fragments. Can karma be truly an individual thing then? Or is it more beneficial to the whole, for us to continue exploring what we had been experiencing, or contributing through into our next life. Which again talks to us being independent life forms.

And all of these ponderings are based on human frameworks and theories based, as someone said, on the tiniest of understandings of the life that has existed down the ages of this universe. We can only use our current capacities to explore understanding. And we shift that every time we learn more. So we are nowhere near able to even imagine what other possibilities there are for how this is all working. Maybe Quantum mechanics is closer. For now. Energy, all interacting and sharing information in order to create a continual fractal of expansion called life. Where does this energy field exist? Is this the 'afterlife'?

I do fear the karmic debt. Becoz so many traditions and religions talk to it. Even if I'm not sure of karma itself. Eckhart Tolle even said "you ctb to relieve yourself from suffering, with no ability to imagine what worse suffering could wait for you on the other side". Shit

Its hard to reconcile. All made more sense before I got sick. Earning things and paying consequences.

So is the karmic thing impacting people's thoughts of ctb? Dissuading you?

What you quoted from Eckhart Tolle is probably the main reason I'm avoiding CTB.
What if you'll get a worse existence next life? or you'll get worse life as a punishment for CTB? nobody knows for sure, but I prefer not to risk it.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

I read a book by a Buddhist teacher who had been struck by chronic illness. She said that the positive in enduring illness is that you are in the throes of clearing karma. But what if you cant endure it? If the suffering is so great and has so many layers that you are suffering on multiple fronts. That even the life/home situation you are in is causing you suffering. I still wonder how this can be reflecting a karma of someone I believe is not so awful, or been so awful in previous lifetimes, that they earnt this. So then are we really taking what must be an immense karmic debt and compounding it with more through ctb?

I can go along with the concept of continuing the journey where we left off if we terminate early. But if we havent coped with this level of suffering this time, we're unlikely to again.

And where does the concept of a self-organising universe come in? Everything is interactive and outcomes emerge from the complex whole. So its not just our actions we are wearing the consequences of. What happens at our hand is never just at our hand. As someone said, whether actions are viewed positively or negatively is partly circumstantial, but also what you do is highly interdependent with others actions, locally and non-locally. Quantum physics talks to entanglement and non-locality. Many of its concepts overlap those of spiritual traditions. We are a giant information store (cf. the book Science and the Alashic field) interacting, co-creating futures and sharing experiences. If, as many traditions talk to, we are One, then we are simply fragments. Can karma be truly an individual thing then? Or is it more beneficial to the whole, for us to continue exploring what we had been experiencing, or contributing through into our next life. There is a challenge as to how independent we are as a life form. Are we part and contribute to the whole, or are we independent? Non-duality challenges the concept of us being independent at all. That it is our ego imposing grandeur of us being an independent 'I'. That ego is the illusion. Consciousness is the awareness from which thoughts arise. Thoughts are heavier energy, starting to take form, action arising from thought heavier yet, and manifesting in the physical domain. So if the source is awareness, did we really produce our thought or did it produce itself? How does karma relate to this?

And all of these ponderings are based on human frameworks and theories based, as someone said, on the tiniest of understandings of the life that has existed down the ages of this universe. We can only use our current capacities to explore understanding. And we shift that every time we learn more. So we are nowhere near able to even imagine what other possibilities there are for how this is all working. Maybe Quantum mechanics is closer. For now. Energy, all interacting and sharing information in order to create a continual fractal of expansion called life. Where does this energy field exist? Is this the 'afterlife'?

I do fear the karmic debt. Becoz so many traditions and religions talk to it. Even if I'm not sure of karma itself. Eckhart Tolle even said "you ctb to relieve yourself from suffering, with no ability to imagine what worse suffering could wait for you on the other side". Shit

Its hard to reconcile. All made more sense before I got sick. Earning things and paying consequences.

So is the karmic thing impacting people's thoughts of ctb? Dissuading you?

I see no free will in a self-organising universe (Key word: Conway's Game of Life). So nobody and nothing can blame my for what I am doing.

 

[UnluckyYogi]

I see no free will in a self-organising universe (Key word: Conway's Game of Life). So nobody and nothing can blame my for what I am doing.

I did a bad thing a few years ago, won't dive deep into what happened and why, it wasn't from an evil intension, but the result was bad.
Anyway, I received the same exact evil did, from someone else at a different country, in a way I didn't expect at all, and even worse.

I probably payed this karma off and I'm happy for it, because I won't need to carry it over into my next life.

Judgement from higher power, if you wanna call it god, is very real.

 

[PhDone]

What you quoted from Eckhart Tolle is probably the main reason I'm avoiding CTB.
What if you'll get a worse existence next life? or you'll get worse life as a punishment for CTB? nobody knows for sure, but I prefer not to risk it.

Thats makes sense. And I ruminate on this a lot. The thought of sitting in my current situation for endless years makes me terrorised. Eckhart Tolle has made a lot of sense to me over the years. Seems to blend many teachings in a non-dogmatic way. But then he said this. Its hard to think I would choose which bits of a teacher to listen to and which to ignore. If, as he says, there could be worse, you could imagine sitting in a worse situation and going "shit, out of the frying pan and into the fire". But I am at a total loss what to do. There are no options for me but suffering here. Its torture every day. Tough one.

For my illness onset: the bullying and negativity I experienced in my workplace caused me to feel negative about the workplace itself. So me creating negative energy and ultimately reflecting that negative energy purely back on myself. Me being pissed only impacts me, not 'them'. So my negativity caused the illness. I had two choices, stop being negative and carry on showing up, or leave and find positivity. But again re the complex system and self-organisation of outcomes, what I was experiencing was not my own creation. My reaction to it was. I remember hoping a big project failed. And straight away going "shit that is a thought that would bring badass karma". So is this the debt? Sure I was anti this place, but I was justifiably hurt by them. I dont believe a lifelong illness was an appropriate debt. And I asked to be moved in my role and was promised and let down. So I wore bad stuff happening even though i tried to take action. I made a v bad decision indeed not to leave. But this outcome????

As I say, up til now I saw everything by a spiritual lens that made sense. Now i'm confused af ….not helpful whilst considering ctb!

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

I did a bad thing a few years ago, won't dive deep into what happened and why, it wasn't from an evil intension, but the result was bad.
Anyway, I received the same exact evil did, from someone else at a different country, in a way I didn't expect at all, and even worse.

I probably payed this karma off and I'm happy for it, because I won't need to carry it over into my next life.

Judgement from higher power, if you wanna call it god, is very real.

That reminds me of medieval executions, where the sinners were happy to be punished in this world and not in the next.

From your point of view you can explain everything. If you are alway a nice guy and treated bad, you pay your dept from a previous life.

I can not imagine to have a free will and therefore words like dept and guilt have no meaning for me.

 

[UnluckyYogi]

That reminds me of medieval executions, where the sinners were happy to be punished in this world and not in the next.

From your point of view you can explain everything. If you are alway a nice guy and treated bad, you pay your dept from a previous life.

I can not imagine to have a free will and therefore words like dept and guilt have no meaning for me.

Bad things happen to good innocent people in this life can mean different things, and not necessarily always bad karma carried over from previous life.
Life is very complex, and since we have free will, we get to choose to do good or bad.
And the wrong doing of one soul collides with the story or life of another good innocent soul.
So you may ask, what did that innocent good soul did to deserve being hurt by another? and the answer is more simple than you might think, but it is that we all have free will, and our actions sometimes collide with one another.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

Bad things happen to good innocent people in this life can mean different things, and not necessarily always bad karma carried over from previous life.
Life is very complex, and since we have free will, we get to choose to do good or bad.
And the wrong doing of one soul collides with the story or life of another good innocent soul.
So you may ask, what did that innocent good soul did to deserve being hurt by another? and the answer is more simple than you might think, but it is that we all have free will, and our actions sometimes collide with one another.

Do you know the theory of cellular automats? For me it is a very convincing model of a developing universe, of emergence and increasing complexity. Causality governs everything an so there is no space for a free will.

 

[UnluckyYogi]

Do you know the theory of cellular automats? For me it is a very convincing model of a developing universe, of emergence and increasing complexity. Causality governs everything an so there is no space for a free will.

Free will exists.
If there was no free will at all, then everyone would wear the same clothes, do only good and so on.
Free will is very real, but sometimes can be disrupted by higher power in order to achieve a certain destiny or to go along with a divine plan.

 

[PhDone]

Do you know the theory of cellular automats? For me it is a very convincing model of a developing universe, of emergence and increasing complexity. Causality governs everything an so there is no space for a free will.

Do you have a good recommended article or reading on cellular automats? Something that talks to the how it fits with developing universe, emergence, complexity.

 

[GuessWhosBack]

Free will exists.
If there was no free will at all, then everyone would wear the same clothes, do only good and so on.
Free will is very real, but sometimes can be disrupted by higher power in order to achieve a certain destiny or to go along with a divine plan.

It sounds like what you refer to free will is more akin to 'people being different' than 'people choosing to be different'.

 

[UnluckyYogi]

It sounds like what you refer to free will is more akin to 'people being different' than 'people choosing to be different'.

We have the free will to discuss free will.
Some people think that every little bit of action is scripted before hand and we have zero choice, as if we are a movie character.
That's really not the case, we are more like a character in a game if you will.

 

[GuessWhosBack]

We have the free will to discuss free will.
Some people think that every little bit of action is scripted before hand and we have zero choice, as if we are a movie character.
That's really not the case, we are more like a character in a game if you will.

I'd prefer that for sure.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

Do you have a good recommended article or reading on cellular automats? Something that talks to the how it fits with developing universe, emergence, complexity.

"A New Kind of Science" by Stephen Wolfram. 1197 pages is maybe a little much in a suicide forum, but there are shorter articles from this author.

 

[CantDoIt]

I have read from people who had NDEs that there is no judgment in the afterlife and that they just don't "want" you to commit suicide but it's "allowed" and what basically happens is you get to choose your next reincarnation, you just don't have complete control over the person you are controlling (ego). And apparently that's the case for all incarnations, and sometimes a soul will choose to heal for a long time etc

 

[UnluckyYogi]

I have read from people who had NDEs that there is no judgment in the afterlife and that they just don't "want" you to commit suicide but it's "allowed" and what basically happens is you get to choose your next reincarnation, you just don't have complete control over the person you are controlling (ego). And apparently that's the case for all incarnations, and sometimes a soul will choose to heal for a long time etc

NDEs are the most reliable form of evidence we have about the afterlife. I do believe most of them, and many of these stories come from genuine people.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

Free will exists.
If there was no free will at all, then everyone would wear the same clothes, do only good and so on.
Free will is very real, but sometimes can be disrupted by higher power in order to achieve a certain destiny or to go along with a divine plan.

Take artifical intelligence as an example, depending on how you teach the software there will be a great diversity of results and I am sure this algorithm has no free will.

If you feel comfortable with a free will, no problem. I personally live as if I have a free will though it is likely an illusion.

 

[UnluckyYogi]

Take artifical intelligence as an example, depending on how you teach the software there will be a great diversity of results and I am sure this algorithm has no free will.

If you feel comfortable with a free will, no problem. I personally live as if I have a free will though it is likely an illusion.

We don't have the means to comprehend the true nature of reality.
The closest we can compare reality to is to a computer program, which is not true. Existence is far more complex and science haven't figured out a lot of it yet.
We can't jump into conclusions so fast just yet, but feel free to believe whatever you want.
Why cars brands have these specific names and not other names for example? - free will.
I can go on and on.
If you read my other posts, you will see that I experienced paranormal events that can't be explained physically. Bizarre things have happened to me and I have nothing to gain by lying.
Some things we may won't have answers to, and it's totally fine.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

NDEs are the most reliable form of evidence we have about the afterlife. I do believe most of them, and many of these stories come from genuine people.

Near death has nothing to do with being dead. NDEs are experiences of people who are alive. A ouija board will bring probably more evidence about afterlive.

 

[UnluckyYogi]

Near death has nothing to do with being dead. NDEs are experiences of people who are alive. A ouija board will bring probably more evidence about afterlive.

I personally don't believe in Ouija board.
Some NDE stories are about people who actually were pronounced dead, like heart stopped beating and lungs stopped moving. You can't say their evidence doesn't count :)

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

I personally don't believe in Ouija board.
Some NDE stories are about people who actually were pronounced dead, like heart stopped beating and lungs stopped moving. You can't say their evidence doesn't count :)

There are heart and loung transplants, only brain death is real death. Only when your EEG is flat they are allowed to harvest your organs. I had NDEs and I am sure I only experienced the rebooting of my brain.

 

[PhDone]

"A New Kind of Science" by Stephen Wolfram. 1197 pages is maybe a little much in a suicide forum, but there are shorter articles from this author.

Brilliant thank you. Love this sort of thing.
The concept of free will is interesting from the perspective of non-duality. The suggestion that we are the awareness behind our thoughts and that it is only ego that creates the illusion of being a separate entity suggests we are not as individual as we think and are not the creators of our thoughts hence actions. In this scenario, thoughts arise from awareness. We think we've thought them. Think we've made conscious decisions. But even the decisions arise as a thought from awareness. We can practice this by observing our thoughts as they arise. So then decisions are partly unconscious patterning and something arising from premanifestation. It appears as free will. But it is not. The classic example in ND circles is being asked if we want tea or coffee. We tell the person our answer, thinking we've made a decision. But the thought that arose before we answered appeared in our awareness. Then we recognised it as a thought. Then we spoke it externally.

There are some amazing books with activities to help test this out and experience it. ND kindov negates a lot of what we're talking about here. Coz why would a non separate self have a separate karma or soul even? Is the non-dual source God, the Dao, divine, akashic field?

And if we are just a fragment of the whole, would it 'mind' if we ctb? Our egos are so full of their importance they dont like the concept of death and non existence. But from a ND perspective its no biggee.

 

[doneforlife]

I did a bad thing a few years ago, won't dive deep into what happened and why, it wasn't from an evil intension, but the result was bad.
Anyway, I received the same exact evil did, from someone else at a different country, in a way I didn't expect at all, and even worse.

I probably payed this karma off and I'm happy for it, because I won't need to carry it over into my next life.

Judgement from higher power, if you wanna call it god, is very real.

What was the bad thing you did? What was the bad thing received? How can you correlate 2 events?

 

[UnluckyYogi]

What was the bad thing you did? What was the bad thing received? How can you correlate 2 events?

I'm ashamed of it, but I received an equal response, almost exactly.

 

[doneforlife]

Brilliant thank you. Love this sort of thing.
The concept of free will is interesting from the perspective of non-duality. The suggestion that we are the awareness behind our thoughts and that it is only ego that creates the illusion of being a separate entity suggests we are not as individual as we think and are not the creators of our thoughts hence actions. In this scenario, thoughts arise from awareness. We think we've thought them. Think we've made conscious decisions. But even the decisions arise as a thought from awareness. We can practice this by observing our thoughts as they arise. So then decisions are partly unconscious patterning and something arising from premanifestation. It appears as free will. But it is not. The classic example in ND circles is being asked if we want tea or coffee. We tell the person our answer, thinking we've made a decision. But the thought that arose before we answered appeared in our awareness. Then we recognised it as a thought. Then we spoke it externally.

There are some amazing books with activities to help test this out and experience it. ND kindov negates a lot of what we're talking about here. Coz why would a non separate self have a separate karma or soul even? Is the non-dual source God, the Dao, divine, akashic field?

And if we are just a fragment of the whole, would it 'mind' if we ctb? Our egos are so full of their importance they dont like the concept of death and non existence. But from a ND perspective its no biggee.

What's ND ? I guess we have free will to certain extent, but certain events are destined to happen and we have no free will in such scenarios. A person born into poverty operates with limited free will. A wealthy person with good health operates with much higher level of free will. The least level of free will is with people suffering from coma or in vegetative state.

 

[UnluckyYogi]

What's ND ? I guess we have free will to certain extent, but certain events are destined to happen and we have no free will in such scenarios. A person born into poverty operates with limited free will. A wealthy person with good health operates with much higher level of free will. The least level of free will is with people suffering from coma or in vegetative state.

That's exactly what I believe in.
But even more than this, sometimes god intervenes and he make sure that certain events will happen in your life, so that's taking control over your free will a bit. But most of the time, we have free will fully and completely.

 

[doneforlife]

I'm ashamed of it, but I received an equal response, almost exactly.

It's good that you are experiencing these things. Kundalini awakening, knowing that your bad karma has been balanced etc. People might never notice these stuff ..

 

[Valhala]

Take artifical intelligence as an example, depending on how you teach the software there will be a great diversity of results and I am sure this algorithm has no free will.

If you feel comfortable with a free will, no problem. I personally live as if I have a free will though it is likely an illusion.

If we take "purposive causality" as the basis of intra-existential being and action in accordance with Aristotle's Causa finalis, it is clear that the arrangement of free will is impossible because every action is conditioned by billions of other actions, every voluntary action is conditioned by billions of different factors that are unfathomable for us in their entirety due to their number. and complexity. If, however, we had the possibility to review all the correlations and synergies in the environment and in the minds of those who interact, we could theoretically predict everything that will happen with absolute precision. Another, very complex topic that goes beyond the scope of this post is the problem temporality, time and the "vulgar concept of time" (Heidegger). In short, everything happens now and simultaneously, the linear flow of time, the past and the future are only perceptive illusions of a limited human mind. I think this thesis about time certainly deserves a special thread.

 

[UnluckyYogi]

It's good that you are experiencing these things. Kundalini awakening, knowing that your bad karma has been balanced etc. People might never notice these stuff ..

I feel so lucky to experience such events.
It changed me from an atheist, that believed all of this was by chance to a person who fully believes in a higher power, although I'm not sure if it is one entity or multiple, but I guess it's one, omnipresent higher mind.

As much as kundalini changed my life for the better, it also destroyed it, by indirectly causing me brain damage.

 

[Uk2023]

Just opinion

I don't think reincarnation is real as in you die and come back

I see it as a concept for the living in this life - to end a cycle/pattern and the reality of it being for the better or worse is still relevant

With that in mind - how to end a cycle and for the better is my focus.

You do live now and with access to resources, but what to look for? You could make a list of what you do want and in your end of cycle stick with that

 

[doneforlife]

I feel so lucky to experience such events.
It changed me from an atheist, that believed all of this was by chance to a person who fully believes in a higher power, although I'm not sure if it is one entity or multiple, but I guess it's one, omnipresent higher mind.

As much as kundalini changed my life for the better, it also destroyed it, by indirectly causing me brain damage.

Anything good can't destroy. If it destroys, it's not good. Yes , I do believe in a higher power. But, I don't know what could be the reason behind that higher power creating this creation and starting this cycle.