Discussion Lowkey Pro-lifers?

[little helpers]

I've had people tell me that I'd be miraculously cured of C-PTSD if I would just decide to open up to miracles. Ask @Persephone ❦ if anything similar has ever happened to her...

I once got a drug counselor who told me that *I* 'd be miraculously cured of C-PTSD if I would just kick my motherfucking habit. rotfl.

I didn't even ask to talk to her. it's the compulsory "therapy" sessions you get (with some places, at least) when you get on methadone or subs.

I've dropped out from the subs program now but man I miss getting so entertained by that motherfucker. /s

or NA/AA, you know. I'd have to hold my impulse to laugh hysterically.

 

[Secrets1]

Seems some just want it to be the polarisation of views and that if you aren't pro death enough then you must be a pro lifer. Somebody else said that many aren't capable or willing to understand there is a middle ground and it's pro choice. We talk about it and pat ourselves on the back saying we are pro choice but just read the posts above and make up your own mind on where the groundswell of opinion sits.

A goodbye thread is a protected place where peoples reasons are not questioned and that makes a lot of sense, although I do see people saying it's ok if you change your mind. Anywhere else I don't understand why you can't ask things of people, you are not invalidating them by doing so unless you dismiss how they are feeling and that's a different matter entirely.

People have some different motivations and senses of morality here which is fine but its starting to feel pro choice only in name

Lol you should've seen this place a couple years ago. It's absolutely not moving in a direction of pro-death. Or even close to legitimately debatable. More people are just talking about the nuance because of outside influence and cherry-picking responses to cite.

Pro-choice means you respect someone else's choice. So regardless of subjective thoughts about merit of an individuals reason, respect that. If they're exhibiting doubt then advising to pause and think more because there is no hard deadline is justified. If they say they want to CTB, or are ready to, pro-choice means not interfering with that shit. At the same time, it's against the rules to cheer someone on in choosing death and that is not the norm. Wishing peace or safe travels is not pro-death. It's a courteous adios with respect.

 

[Robyn]

Is it just me seein' 'em around? Like, they're not outright with it, but there's a lot of leading and manipulative language. It's clear they're not here to actually help or listen. They stress that everything's your choice while telling you it's not too late to change your mind or whatever. That shit doesn't sit right with me. Am I seeing something where there's nothing? Thoughts. I want them.

The internet is rife with sites that offer help to those who want to recover from their suicidal ideation.
It seems to me that some people coming here don't understand what the word "Sanctioned" mean. Etymologically ,

Is it just me seein' 'em around? Like, they're not outright with it, but there's a lot of leading and manipulative language. It's clear they're not here to actually help or listen. They stress that everything's your choice while telling you it's not too late to change your mind or whatever. That shit doesn't sit right with me. Am I seeing something where there's nothing? Thoughts. I want them.

For the people coming to this site who don't know the meaning of the word "Sanctioned": it comes from the same Latin root word as "Sacred"; that is, the sacred right of each individual to determine their own end if they wish to.

Here's the first dictionary entry that came up on my Google search:

"VERB USED WITH OBJECT
C(used with object, i.e. "Suicide")
to authorize, approve, or allow: an expression now sanctioned by educated usage.

to ratify or confirm: to sanction a law.
to authorize, approve, or allow: an expression now sanctioned by educated usage.
to ratify or confirm: to sanction a law."

The internet is rife with anti-suicide, pro-recovery web sites.
Here in the can-do U.S. if you want to leave your life, you are paradoxically encouraged to contact a "Suicide Prevention" hot line. How ironic.

Sanctioned Suicide is a place for self-determined adults who have decided to end their lives to learn and to share the best methods to do just that. It is a place that accumulates information, and whose members share their experiences and sometimes even their expertise on the subject. Authorize. Approve. Allow.

 

[Round Two]

The internet is rife with sites that offer help to those who want to recover from their suicidal ideation.
It seems to me that some people coming here don't understand what the word "Sanctioned" mean. Etymologically ,

For the people coming to this site who don't know the meaning of the word "Sanctioned": it comes from the same Latin root word as "Sacred"; that is, the sacred right of each individual to determine their own end if they wish to.

Here's the first dictionary entry that came up on my Google search:

"VERB USED WITH OBJECT
C(used with object, i.e. "Suicide")
to authorize, approve, or allow: an expression now sanctioned by educated usage.

to ratify or confirm: to sanction a law.
to authorize, approve, or allow: an expression now sanctioned by educated usage.
to ratify or confirm: to sanction a law."

The internet is rife with anti-suicide, pro-recovery web sites.
Here in the can-do U.S. if you want to leave your life, you are paradoxically encouraged to contact a "Suicide Prevention" hot line. How ironic.

Sanctioned Suicide is a place for self-determined adults who have decided to end their lives to learn and to share the best methods to do just that. It is a place that accumulates information, and whose members share their experiences and sometimes even their expertise on the subject. Authorize. Approve. Allow.

Doesn't look like you've said much in your three years here. Thanks for this being one of them. Well said.

 

[cambrai33]

Wow, this thread blew the heck up.

Alright, since there seems to be a lot of confusion about what I'm talking about, where my stance is, and also why I think this behavior is harmful no matter what the person's intentions are.

1) Specifically, I'm talking about people who, no matter what their intentions, ask leading questions to extract information from people about their situation. I'm not referring to people legit asking "do you want to talk about it?"--that's fine. No, I'll go a step further and say that's actually helpful. It's reaching out, leaning no way or another, no strings, no motivations, just lending an ear. However, subtly differently saying, "what are the details of these feelings?", or "what led you here?", or "is there anything that might get you to reconsider?", are all leading questions. They're a means of trying to start a discussion over the person's reasons for coming to the decision they've come to.

2) My stance is neither pro-life nor pro-death(for those who didn't bother to read my first response). My stance is pro-choice. And I've seen a lot of things here saying, "well, there's no way to respond without your own will/view/etc. making it in there". Or saying that you'd have to respond in the most basic of ways to achieve this. That's simply not true. Each and every one of you here, if you're a member of this community, has had thoughts of suicide. You may not know exactly what each person is going through, but you should at least be able to empathize at a basic level. And you can communicate that without anything else thrown in. You can say, for example, "I really relate to what you've said", or "gosh, that's a terrible situation", or "I wish the best for you", or any number of other neutral statements, but that would require some careful thought regarding a very serious subject, and I know a lot of people don't want to put in that effort.

3) Now on to why subtlety asking leading questions is harmful, unethical, and insulting.

3.a) The biggest one is harmful. The reason this one is the biggest is because I'm saying this directly to the people who ask these leading questions: you're not helping. You may think, "oh, but I'm saving this person from a terrible mistake", or "I'm just making sure they're super duper sure about this", and I get that. However, what you also have to consider is that almost every single person here has some level of serious trauma. I'm not sure if you're considering this or not, but asking someone to re-live that trauma so that you can feel better about letting them make their own decision could very well be the thing that drives them even further down the road to making that pain and trauma go away. It can be very harmful to subtly drag this information out of people, no matter what your intention is. And that brings us right into why this behavior is unethical.

3.b) You don't know what these people are going through if they don't volunteer it. You have no way of knowing what effect your words are going to have on this person, and you have no right or responsibility to "help" them into what you believe to be a better place, or try to make them reconsider. I wanted to avoid quotes from past posts here since there's no way I could get to all of them, but eryu said something that really encompasses this:


3.c) Now onto why it's insulting. This is probably the least important out of all these really important things, but it's worth mentioning anyway. No matter what someone's reasons are for doing what they're doing, you have no idea what it's like for them. Even if you've gone through the same exactly the same thing or have a similar trauma, everyone's experiences and perceptions are different. What could be an average day for me might emotionally scar and destroy another person's sanity. I've said it before on here and I'll reiterate it: no one gets here without careful consideration and understanding the gravity of choosing to die. Asking people if they're sure or to reconsider is a fucking insult to their intelligence and the significance of their pain. They have a right to choose to live or choose to die.

If my understanding of this forum is correct, it's here to be a safe space for people to express how they feel about their own life and their own death, and it's up to us as a community to support one another emotionally and be mature enough to respect that choice.

I'll finish with this, and this is the culmination of my point:
If I were to go into the recovery section of this forum and ask, "Is there anything that might make you reconsider?", would that be helpful? Would that be ethical? No. No, it most certainly fucking wouldn't be.

PS:

If you're going to be condescending, at least take the time to get my gender right.

Sorry I will be a good little pet and wish everyone well in their ctb journey

 

[Round Two]

Sorry I will be a good little pet and wish everyone well in their ctb journey

If that's all you can come up with in response to everything I said then that's pretty telling. Sure you don't wanna question whether or not I belong here again? Make a point or quit being childish.

 

[motel rooms]

I think it's pro-choice on paper, but it also attracts a lot of people with all kinds of intentions. some good, some evil. So in practice, it's a lot more complicated.

Everything is very complicated in practice, but it's really unfair to call this forum pro-choice only in name/on paper. If this is a death cult, then it's a really lame, ineffective one.

Pro-Lifers in the context of the Op are probably people who don't like people to end things without exploring options first like help etc, the OP labels these low key whatever that means.

I agree with @Suicidebydeath that the people you're referring to aren't necessarily pro-lifers. There are, however, certain members who only speak in insipid platitudes & go completely quiet when politely asked if they're pro-choice even in threads started by people in objectively hopeless situations.

I think that some things might that be attacked as "lowkey pro-life" might just be people respecting the right of people to change their mind to ctb, and so on. Which isn't pro-life, that's pro-choice.

You may have noticed the framing of the low key pro life narrative and intent behind the post being to discourage help, at least that's how it comes across to me and evidently some others.

Well, those who wish to discourage all the SS members from being compassionate & offering help to each other are extremely dumb if they think they'll ever achieve their goal.

 

[cambrai33]

If that's all you can come up with in response to everything I said then that's pretty telling. Sure you don't wanna question whether or not I belong here again? Make a point or quit being childish.

No I accept this is your point of view and that low key pro lifers such as myself should keep quiet. You can read what you like into that but I consider myself educated by you and will refrain from anything other than wishing others well or other non descriptive comments.

 

[Round Two]

No I accept this is your point of view and that low key pro lifers such as myself should keep quiet. You can read what you like into that but I consider myself educated by you and will refrain from anything other than wishing others well or other non descriptive comments.

Everything I said in that post was absolutely my point of view. It's my opinion that the things I described are unethical and have consequences that can't be predicted. If you disagree with that and want to flippantly label yourself that way, then that's your choice. I'm not telling anyone here to be quiet or silence anyone. If you stay quiet, that's your choice, too. I'm expressing what I feel here in the hopes it provokes some thought and consideration before acting. If it doesn't, then that's just how it is. You can go ahead climb down off that cross, though. I didn't put you there.

 

[cambrai33]

Everything I said in that post was absolutely my point of view. It's my opinion that the things I described are unethical and have consequences that can't be predicted. If you disagree with that and want to flippantly label yourself that way, then that's your choice. I'm not telling anyone here to be quiet or silence anyone. If you stay quiet, that's your choice, too. I'm expressing what I feel here in the hopes it provokes some thought and consideration before acting. If it doesn't, then that's just how it is. You can go ahead climb down off that cross, though. I didn't put you there.

Look it may be your opinion and you will have known the motivation behind making it. You might not see this but I have made a lot of thought and consideration before talking to people who are distressed on here, you can no doubt see my posting history but I am tired of being slammed and labelled for actually giving a shit about others.

But actually I will like I said keep quite and I hope you get the type of forum you crave

 

[Round Two]

Look it may be your opinion and you will have known the motivation behind making it. You might not see this but I have made a lot of thought and consideration before talking to people who are distressed on here, you can no doubt see my posting history but I am tired of being slammed and labelled for actually giving a shit about others.

But actually I will like I said keep quite and I hope you get the type of forum you crave

I want to be super clear here, for your sake and everyone else's who read this thread, that post wasn't directed at any specific person who posted here, and it wasn't an attack on you. It was meant to clarify various things that were brought up throughout all the previous posts. The only thing I "slammed" you for was misgendering me and being condescending, which wasn't appreciated. With complete seriousness, I don't think your intentions are insidious. Honestly, I can't remember seeing any post you've made before this thread, so I have no preconceived notions of who you are or what you're like on here. Calling yourself "a good little pet" in response to something that really came from my heart felt incredibly dismissive and absolutely like a personal attack. If I'm misreading that, then that's on me.

 

[liberty_222]

The thing that bothers me is when people criticise other peoples reasons for ctb, saying that is not a valid reason. These people have no say about what others do with their lives. I am fully pro choice meaning that I believe that people have the right to exit at a time of their own choosing. Since my time on this forum, some people have given me pro life vibes. I'm not sure why someone would even come on here if they are against suicide in the first place.

Louder for people in the back

 

[waitingforthehappy]

Can we not argue here? It's bad enough enduring all the conflict in the normie pro life world. Give me a break.

 

[motel rooms]

But actually I will like I said keep quite and I hope you get the type of forum you crave

But why? Stop sulking & just continue to do your thing. No member has the power to silence you. Nobody's gonna bother you unless you suddenly lose your mind & start attacking people & invalidating their pain.

 

[D&D]

A hardcore pro-lifer would tell you that it's your fault miracles haven't happened in your life because you're not open to them...

I don't normally say this but anyone who says something like 'miracles haven't happened in your life because you're not open to them' ... is more of a moron than anything else.

The response that comes to mind is - death is a miracle just as much as life is.

 

[GentleJerk]

If I comment on a goodbye thread, I do always remind people that it's okay if they change their minds and no longer wish to die, but I also state that I wish them nothing but peace if they proceed with their plans. I myself have incurable conditions and "full recovery" is impossible for me, so I am not preaching or imposing a view on others. I still consider myself firmly pro-choice.

It is not an attempt to influence or stop someone if they are sure that dying is what they want. It's simply a reminder, and reassurance that they will be supported and respected regardless of what they do. As @4eyebiped said, I sometimes worry that those who make goodbye threads may feel pressured if they do not follow through. There have also been past incidents on this forum where members have not gone through with their attempts for various reasons, and have been criticised and shamed for it. I would never want someone to think they must do anything due to pressure or fear of backlash - it is their decision and theirs alone.

Having said this, I think that pro-choice is at times conflated with pro-death. I believe strongly in people's autonomy and right to self-determination, but that does not mean I necessarily want people to die. In an ideal world, I would want everyone to have the ability to lead a good life. I am always happy for those who do manage to recover, whatever recovery means for them. However, I completely understand that this sadly isn't an ideal world. I understand that recovery isn't desirable or even possible for everyone, and I disagree with anyone being forced to live against their will or denied access to a dignified, peaceful passing. We should all be entitled to make an informed choice about our lives and ultimately our deaths.

I always say just make sure that's what you want, but that doesnt mean I'm trying to change that person mind . if they go ahead or not I, respect their final decision. No matter what it would be.

I very much relate and agree, I fall under this category too. @Persephone ❦ 's comment explains it really well.

I think it's a good thing that people here are cautious of members that might be against suicide on the down-low. They want to maintain the integrity of this place and I agree with that. I will support a person through whatever decision they make, because that is what people who ctb don't get from anywhere else and what makes this place so special. But with such a big decision there should be some balance.

I think that with the current climate and all the scrutiny, a little balance would help people see that this isn't some evil place where everybody encourages to ctb and just says good luck hope you succeed. The 'pro-lifers' as you call them would eat this up and use it against us.

 

[Round Two]

I very much relate and agree, I fall under this category too. @Persephone ❦ 's comment explains it really well.

I think it's a good thing that people here are cautious of members that might be against suicide on the down-low. They want to maintain the integrity of this place and I agree with that. I will support a person through whatever decision they make, because that is what people who ctb don't get from anywhere else and what makes this place so special. But with such a big decision there should be some balance.

I think that with the current climate and all the scrutiny, a little balance would help people see that this isn't some evil place where everybody encourages to ctb and just says good luck hope you succeed. The 'pro-lifers' as you call them would eat this up and use it against us.

Couldn't agree more. Balance is vital, especially with a place such as this. The people who really want to offer hope for a possible better future to people who are looking for it need to have a space to do that. That's why there's a Recovery section literally right next to this part of the site. Coming in this section of the site with a desire to "help" in that way isn't balanced, it's tipping the scales. It's coming from a good place, but this isn't the space for it.

 

[motel rooms]

I don't normally say this but anyone who says something like 'miracles haven't happened in your life because you're not open to them' ... is more of a moron than anything else.

Btw, a much more common version of this occurs when therapists tell their patients the only reason therapy isn't working is that they aren't fully open to it/cooperative...

 

[cambrai33]

Yep totally agree, if people want help why don't they call a fucking helpline.

I very much relate and agree, I fall under this category too. @Persephone ❦ 's comment explains it really well.

I think it's a good thing that people here are cautious of members that might be against suicide on the down-low.

What a strange statement to make, how do you know if they 'might' be against it.

They want to maintain the integrity of this place and I agree with that. I will support a person through whatever decision they make, because that is what people who ctb don't get from anywhere else and what makes this place so special. But with such a big decision there should be some balance.

People here talk about balance but they are just going through the motions, what they mean is keep help hidden away where it belongs and let's get on with death, which is why we are here

I think that with the current climate and all the scrutiny, a little balance would help people see that this isn't some evil place where everybody encourages to ctb and just says good luck hope you succeed. The 'pro-lifers' as you call them would eat this up and use it against us.

So we play up that it's a caring place because we are under a bit of scrutiny, the truth is that most people do just wish peace or whatever which is fine but seldom comes across well meaning to Those who seek to ban this site

Couldn't agree more. Balance is vital, especially with a place such as this. The people who really want to offer hope for a possible better future to people who are looking for it need to have a space to do that. That's why there's a Recovery section literally right next to this part of the site.

You are literally going through the motions about balance. What concerns you so much about people being asked if they have tried alternatives? Are you concerned they might not ctb as quickly, what is your motivation here in this respect? After 10 days you seem disenchanted with how the site has been running for a long long time.

Coming in this section of the site with a desire to "help" in that way isn't balanced, it's tipping the scales. It's coming from a good place, but this isn't the space for it.

People don't 'come' into this section of the site, we are already here because we have varying degrees of suicide idealation in the most part. Some come here in the first post asking for methods to die because they feel low, some because they lost someone else to ctb, a number of reasons and to not feel allowed to engage with them except to low key encourage them to get on with it is thankfully against the site ethos and rules.

 

[D&D]

Btw, a much more common version of this occurs when therapists tell their patients the only reason therapy isn't working is that they aren't fully open to it/cooperative...

I can easily imagine that. No doubt if therapy 'works' (whatever is meant by that) - it is thanks to the therapist's skill/knowledge. If it does not - it is because the patient/client is not open/not cooperating with it. Either way - the hourly rate remains the same.

 

[Round Two]

I can easily imagine that. No doubt if therapy 'works' (whatever is meant by that) - it is thanks to the therapist's skill/knowledge. If it does not - it is because the patient/client is not open/not cooperating with it. Either way - the hourly rate remains the same.

It's super lame that there's so little help to be found in those spaces. I feel like a lot of us would be able to manage at least a little better if it wasn't so expensive and they didn't immediately throw you into a facility for any suicide talk.

 

[medjooled11]

They stress that everything's your choice while telling you it's not too late to change your mind or whatever.

There is nothing wrong with this. It's great to offer different perspectives. It helps our self-reflective thought. Some people do not lean strictly on one side.
I believe you can harbor pro-choice and pro-life sentiments.

 

[cambrai33]

There is nothing wrong with this. It's great to offer different perspectives. It helps our self-reflective thought. Some people do not lean strictly on one side.
I believe you can harbor pro-choice and pro-life sentiments.

Different perspectives will be consigned to the recovery section under the new proposals, it's a chilling prospect and some here only want it to be an echo chamber of their own narrative

 

[Round Two]

This thread picked up way more traction than I anticipated. So, thanks a bunch for comin' in and sharing your opinion on this! All I really hoped to accomplish here was getting all this more into the light rather than just silently simmering in the background. I have my own views on this stuff, but at the end of the day, all that really matters is that people came in and took a minute or two to think about it. And you all helped with that. So, thanks.

I'm gonna consider this a success and unwatch, but I hope anyone who has more feelings to share on it will. Best of luck to you all on your journies, and thanks for bein' a part of mine.

 

[vinie]

some here only want it to be an echo chamber of their own narrative

Thank you for bringing this up. Though uncommon, there have been instances on SaSu where I have contradicted someone's viewpoint on life and was called delusional for it. As this is a pro-choice forum, it is important to acknowledge everybody's hardships and outlooks, no matter their age or situation. Though I believe that we can all agree life is utterly cruel, there is nothing wrong with making sure a person knows that they are in control of their existence. Everybody is free to make a choice, which should be supported unconditionally.

 

[little helpers]

Btw, a much more common version of this occurs when therapists tell their patients the only reason therapy isn't working is that they aren't fully open to it/cooperative...

they got their defense tactics but so what? hey shrink, *you*'ve not been fully open to believing me, OR believing that I'm fully open to your shit as well! people say I need a miracle? heck, *you* need a miracle to fix your ignorance!

literally all of those tactics can be used back at them. that's the point.

 

[motel rooms]

I believe you can harbor pro-choice and pro-life sentiments.

You don't seem to understand what SS members mean by the term "pro-lifer". Those people, a significant number of whom are religious fanatics, believe that even euthanasia for the terminally ill is completely unacceptable. They are fervently anti-choice. I think we should call them that rather than pro-life.

That's why there's a Recovery section literally right next to this part of the site. Coming in this section of the site with a desire to "help" in that way isn't balanced, it's tipping the scales. It's coming from a good place, but this isn't the space for it.

I disagree with this. It isn't against the rules to respectfully offer help to people on the main forum.

Different perspectives will be consigned to the recovery section under the new proposals, it's a chilling prospect and some here only want it to be an echo chamber of their own narrative

You're so freakin' paranoid, dude. The mods would never sign off on such "proposals".

 

[StevieNixs]

Is it just me seein' 'em around? Like, they're not outright with it, but there's a lot of leading and manipulative language. It's clear they're not here to actually help or listen. They stress that everything's your choice while telling you it's not too late to change your mind or whatever. That shit doesn't sit right with me. Am I seeing something where there's nothing? Thoughts. I want them.

I really believe this.