Discussion Lowkey Pro-lifers?

[LONE WOLF.]

To any and all Pro-Lifers lurking on here l hope you Pond-Life Low Foreheads wake up tmrw morning with a Million flesh eating insect's on your genitals!!! And a dozen infected piles hanging out of your brown eye! :-)

 

[motel rooms]

Haha thought you couldn't resist.

You can't resist expressing your opinions, so why should I?

Love the bit about you making out I think the mods are pro-deathers, is this you trying to plant a seed?

It's me asking you a question. You sometimes seem to be a bit paranoid that you'll get banned for trying to offer alternative solutions to other members.

Ive only been encouraged to ctb once on here but even you can't think that everyone's intentions on here are what they seem……

Does that mean that you have a feeling many members are creeps who get off on driving people to suicide?


Btw, let's talk about you. I don't want you to die. I think that you're an interesting, compassionate person with a lot to offer & that there's no reason for you to hate yourself. Why do you want to ctb?

 

[cambrai33]

You can't resist expressing your opinions, so why should I?

No and if I'm honest I enjoy the debate

It's me asking you a question. You sometimes seem to be a bit paranoid that you'll get banned for trying to offer alternative solutions to other members.

Yes that is a concern, I have downloaded my method just in case. If you read above you will understand why people may have the opinion that to show compassion for anything other than ctb might make people feel uneasy and label it 'Pro Life'

But you trying to make connection that I think the mods are pro death is mischievous at best

Does that mean that you have a feeling many members are creeps who get off on driving people to suicide?

Many? not sure I said many at all again mischievous

None…. You tell me, people are here for many reasons, why wouldn't that factor for some

Btw, let's talk about you. I don't want you to die. I think that you're an interesting, compassionate person with a lot to offer & that there's no reason for you to hate yourself. Why do you want to ctb?

Thanks, you throw me off guard when you finish on a high like that. Of course I don't want to ctb but I don't want to live and as such i have a few well rehearsed and available methods which I will execute (not simultaneously)once all my administration has been completed.

If someone else has an option that works for them that isn't ctb then I'm happy for them but reading what some put on here I cannot begin to imagine how they have held out for so long

I do enjoy our chats

 

[rationaltake]

Is it just me seein' 'em around? Like, they're not outright with it, but there's a lot of leading and manipulative language. It's clear they're not here to actually help or listen. They stress that everything's your choice while telling you it's not too late to change your mind or whatever. That shit doesn't sit right with me. Am I seeing something where there's nothing? Thoughts. I want them.

Don't know. Sometimes I pick up on the way somebody is posting and feel they are not certain so I then might ask if they need to think further.

 

[Julgran]

Don't know. Sometimes I pick up on the way somebody is posting and feel they are not certain so I then might ask if they need to think further.

This is a great input!

We have people in need of attention who create threads in which they describe their current feelings. Why wouldn't we assume that they have not received the attention or understanding that they need, or that they want someone to comment on their story, or to ask them questions about their decision to come here and write their story?

 

[rationaltake]

This is a great input!

We have people in need of attention who create threads in which they describe their current feelings. Why wouldn't we assume that they have not received the attention or understanding that they need, or that they want someone to comment on their story, or to ask them questions about their decision to come here and write their story?

Thanks for putting this much better than I could.

 

[WonderingSoul]

I know what you're talking about because I've met many pro-lifers in real life and online. For me, it's pretty easy to tell by what they say. No, you are not the only one seeing them because I sometimes I see something a pro-life person would say. Could also just be me though.

 

[stellabelle]

Is it just me seein' 'em around? Like, they're not outright with it, but there's a lot of leading and manipulative language. It's clear they're not here to actually help or listen. They stress that everything's your choice while telling you it's not too late to change your mind or whatever. That shit doesn't sit right with me. Am I seeing something where there's nothing? Thoughts. I want them.

Well.

If people aggressively push you to live, you probably won't respond well. If they aggressively push you to die, it's probably a problem too. If they "park it" right there in the middle and blink blink….well they're doing whatever it is they think they "can" - which is not a bad thing, I guess.

That's the problem when people lie and say everything's your "choice" - but it isn't if people continue to shut you down from moving forward and drag you back into a bad circle or abusive circles or stare at you and blink blink… as if you're some sort of alien creature rather than a person. What a nightmare, right? Well…. I'll tell you…. It's kind of just "too bad" in general.

I "welcome" the sitting ducks. They quack occasionally and do nothing to help, nothing to hurt, they just are.

And when someone shoots them… feathers everywhere.

pro-life… what does that mean to you?
pro-birth? anti-death?

Well. I attempted to live, I attempted to be, and I attempted to get out of that struggle of abuse, and they ignored me.

They ignored my mother jumping me repeatedly. They ignored every red flag. They ignored that she was a sex offender who raped stacey with a dildo. What was that? About second grade? They ignored me in 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, they ignored the truancy, they ignored the kidnapping, they ignored it.

They ignored me. They ignored me when I said no, 19, they ignored me when I said stop, they ignored me when I said I hated the rapist and that he won't just get the fuck away from me, they ignored me when I said I cannot stand my mother, they ignored me when I said I might as well just commit suicide if I "have to" go back to be with abusers. They ignored me when I said "go away" and "leave me alone" and "let me learn" and "I want to stay in school" and "please listen" but those pleas weren't enough, were they?

Please leave him alone! Don't hurt my classmate. Please stop!

I guess when I said no to drugs, no I don't want to go in there, no, please stop, I don't want it, go away!

That was too little too late wasn't it?

GIVE ME MY KEY AND MY PHONE BACK I AM LEAVING!

(No you can't leave I'm bigger than you and when you try to get it back from me, I push you back down and say too bad and stop your exit, hehehehe sex offender on parole named Matt herrman holding you hostage, and nobody to help! I'll keep hitting you and forcing you to sit here while I abuse you and tell you you have to say something happened that didn't, because if you don't tell me the lie I want to hear, I will keep hitting you and slamming you down and forcing you to be stuck in my prison cell of an apartment where I'll destroy your life every day.)

If I said nothing, they kept pushing and nagging. If I spoke, they twisted what I said. If I tried to die, they blamed me. If I tried to "live", they blamed me for that too. If I said no he still demanded money, he still demanded sex, he still demanded me to be there where I was miserable and he had already done everything behind my back and destroyed any progress I ever tried to make.

My family told them to abuse. And then they lied and told me to "grow up" - I did, but those bastards didn't. They just lied and stole and lied and stole and lied and stole.

I said let me out of the car! They wouldn't. I said it a bunch of times. I begged. I screamed. And nobody would let me out. And then blamed me for being in the car itself as they drove drunk, crazy, aggressive, screaming, lying, hellraising. The mother, the "boyfriend", the friend, all of those people.

I screamed let go of me!

Let go of my motorcycle!

I screamed stop, get rid of it! Don't let those people take everything I own, give it away! It's supposed to be given away or donated! They're fucking LIARS.

They BRIBED RAPISTS. THEY BRIBED STALKERS. THEY BRIBED CRIMINALS. THEY STOLE EVERYTHING, HELD ME HOSTAGE AND THREW ME OUT AGAIN AND AGAIN.

Where's your period? I'll blackmail you and demand you have a rape baby. While your "mommy dearest" fuckin posts pictures of her pweshus jordiiiipieeeee and Matt herrman keeps trying to rape one into you.

Oh you're getting over an abortion? Might as well keep fucking you. Might as well keep grabbing your crotch and refusing to STOP.

Kiss me kiss me, oh, that's right, you didn't want to so I bit you and when you screamed in pain and asked why, I said too bad, get the fuck out, only after I stole your money for half the rent. Keep crying and wailing while I rape you repeatedly. Keep doing it. And keep trying to call your "parents" for help. They won't. They are fucked up people who "enjoyed" the show and the crying and the begging for help.

 

[D&D]

Attaching a label to something, anything, is the quickest and the easiest way to avoid looking at it with any depth. Just label it and shove it into its assigned place. End of the matter.

Trying to understand almost endless variety of human sufferings that brings those who, often if not always, have nowhere else to go, without attaching any label is infinitely harder and could be emotionally draining. What do you say to someone who, so to speak, stands on the edge of proverbial ledge? Jump? Don't jump? Have a peaceful journey? Which of those, hypothetical statements, makes one so called 'pro-lifer' and which one does not?

What I have, thus far, learned is that unless asked - remaining respectfully silent shows compassion and offers dignity. If/when people ask, not just vent their pain, but ask for views, opinions, and in some instances help - we can each only do our best. Which comes down to what we know and have experienced. Unlabeled.

 

[LastLoveLetter]

If I comment on a goodbye thread, I do always remind people that it's okay if they change their minds and no longer wish to die, but I also state that I wish them nothing but peace if they proceed with their plans. I myself have incurable conditions and "full recovery" is impossible for me, so I am not preaching or imposing a view on others. I still consider myself firmly pro-choice.

It is not an attempt to influence or stop someone if they are sure that dying is what they want. It's simply a reminder, and reassurance that they will be supported and respected regardless of what they do. As @4eyebiped said, I sometimes worry that those who make goodbye threads may feel pressured if they do not follow through. There have also been past incidents on this forum where members have not gone through with their attempts for various reasons, and have been criticised and shamed for it. I would never want someone to think they must do anything due to pressure or fear of backlash - it is their decision and theirs alone.

Having said this, I think that pro-choice is at times conflated with pro-death. I believe strongly in people's autonomy and right to self-determination, but that does not mean I necessarily want people to die. In an ideal world, I would want everyone to have the ability to lead a good life. I am always happy for those who do manage to recover, whatever recovery means for them. However, I completely understand that this sadly isn't an ideal world. I understand that recovery isn't desirable or even possible for everyone, and I disagree with anyone being forced to live against their will or denied access to a dignified, peaceful passing. We should all be entitled to make an informed choice about our lives and ultimately our deaths.

 

[Sherri]

I always say just make sure that's what you want, but that doesnt mean I'm trying to change that person mind . if they go ahead or not I, respect their final decision. No matter what it would be.

 

[thefoodispoison]

I find it so sketchy that you joined right after the NYTimes article and immediately started complaining when people are supportive to others and remind them that it's okay to ask for help if they're not ready. That's not pro-life -- we're here respecting people's choices but reminding them they can change their minds and nobody will think less of them (except you apparently).

 

[motel rooms]

We have people in need of attention who create threads in which they describe their current feelings. Why wouldn't we assume that they have not received the attention or understanding that they need, or that they want someone to comment on their story, or to ask them questions about their decision to come here and write their story?

That's exactly what routinely happens... Yes, there are people whose incredibly pessimistic, clichéd comments are as annoying as toxic optimism, but there are always enough compassionate members who are willing to truly listen to the sufferer & offer them realistic advice. Of course, some people aren't open to any type of advice & we have to respect that.

 

[cambrai33]

I find it so sketchy that you joined right after the NYTimes article and immediately started complaining when people are supportive to others and remind them that it's okay to ask for help if they're not ready. That's not pro-life -- we're here respecting people's choices but reminding them they can change their minds and nobody will think less of them (except you apparently).

Good point the timing I hadn't noticed, been here less than a couple of weeks and calling people out.

OP what would make this space more comfortable for you?

 

[OnlyTheWind]

Hey pro-lifers! My life won't get better without a miracle, and I'm going to fucking kill myself!

 

[motel rooms]

Hey pro-lifers! My life won't get better without a miracle, and I'm going to fucking kill myself!

A hardcore pro-lifer would tell you that it's your fault miracles haven't happened in your life because you're not open to them...

 

[cambrai33]

Most of the Pro Lifers in the true sense of the word are screen grabbing threads and not participating in them then putting them on twitter in in a file for later but if it helps you inside to say that then good for you

 

[myopybyproxy]

The thing that bothers me is when people criticise other peoples reasons for ctb, saying that is not a valid reason. These people have no say about what others do with their lives. I am fully pro choice meaning that I believe that people have the right to exit at a time of their own choosing. Since my time on this forum, some people have given me pro life vibes. I'm not sure why someone would even come on here if they are against suicide in the first place.

Probably morbid curiosity or trolling - or perhaps writing an academic article on how the unstable think and how they can best be helped. Good lord, the latter gets me hopping mad.

 

[motel rooms]

Most of the Pro Lifers in the true sense of the word are screen grabbing threads and not participating in them then putting them on twitter in in a file for later but if it helps you inside to say that then good for you

I've had people tell me that I'd be miraculously cured of C-PTSD if I would just decide to open up to miracles. Ask @Persephone ❦ if anything similar has ever happened to her...

 

[OnlyTheWind]

A hardcore pro-lifer would tell you that it's your fault miracles haven't happened in your life because you're not open to them...

The things these people say are beyond ridiculous. And all to maintain their delusion that life is good and always worth living regardless of circumstances.

 

[cambrai33]

I've had people tell me that I'd be miraculously cured of C-PTSD if I would just decide to open up to miracles. Ask @Persephone ❦ if anything similar has ever happened to her...

I really thought you believed in miracles, nobody gets cured, some fragments always remain be they physical or mental, typically both

Actually what the fuck do I know, I'm not a believer of that horseshit, like I'm not a believer that destiny is set until it happens

 

[motel rooms]

Most of the Pro Lifers in the true sense of the word are screen grabbing threads and not participating in them then putting them on twitter in in a file for later but if it helps you inside to say that then good for you

You know, it's quite funny (in both senses of the word) that you don't think that hardcore pro-lifers are a thing, yet you're convinced that this forum is pro-choice only in name, which can mean only one thing- that it's full of people who are pro-death. Are hardcore pro-deathers real, but hardcore pro-lifers aren't?

It's also interesting that you still think you might get banned.

You sometimes seem to be a bit paranoid that you'll get banned for trying to offer alternative solutions to other members.

Yes that is a concern, I have downloaded my method just in case. If you read above you will understand why people may have the opinion that to show compassion for anything other than ctb might make people feel uneasy and label it 'Pro Life'.
But you trying to make connection that I think the mods are pro death is mischievous at best

Only the mods can ban you. If you don't think that any of them are pro-death rather than pro-choice, why are you worried? You're definitely not the kind of person who would tell someone that vomiting all day every day isn't enough to make them want to end it all, so there's absolutely no reason for you to be so paranoid...

 

[user_name_here]

Their not all pro-lifers though, there's quite a few edge lords who signed up to watch people die because they think its some kind of Dark Web Red Room.

 

[motel rooms]

Their not all pro-lifers though, there's quite a few edge lords who signed up to watch people die because they think its some kind of Dark Web Red Room.

Do you think that this place is pro-choice only in name too?

 

[ket]

gentlemen, please, you can't fight here, this is the suicide room.

 

[DEATHYON]

you got me there. to me, it seems there is a problem when the "recovery" section is hosted on the same page as ctb discussions. *not* that I think this place should be unwelcoming to the "recovery" folks, whatever that means. and I'm very much aware that everyone is entitled to their own opinion - on life and on death.

"opinions are like assholes, everyone has one." philosophies too, are personal, and personal only. it's a matter of whether someone's merely stating their personal experience of things, or if they're tryna gag you with that.

IMHO much of the "hidden pro-lifers", the way you referred to them, could very well be in a state of being passively suicidal. that suicidality is egodystonic for them.

for many others, though, it's egosyntonic. but it's outside their (the previous group's) range of experience, and thus cognition, so there comes the pathologizing, and sometimes outright villifying of our existence.

it no wrong that my suicidality is egosyntonic. it just is. I welcome it. the way I welcome egodystonic experiences of suicidality as well. many people opt into thinking that suicidality has to be some "foreign, alien stuff injected to your head". but how could they prove that their thoughts are really theirs? do you truly *own* every bit of your cerebral experience? is the "ego" truly separable from "whatever things your brain's been telling you"? how do you even discern between the two, and knew that your judgement is correct? *who* is making that discernment?

is this existence integral and gestalt, or split between "your ego" and "the cerebral environment" that the ego is born into?
even then, the ego would interact with and accomodate to its environment.

the brain is meant to work for us. every piece of perception, cognition, emotional reaction. they mean something. and "you" are nothing more than a tiny sense-of-self area in your brain. it puts stuff into the context past experience, creates a internal illusion of volition, processes the information coming to it, but not controlling how that information came to it and how it was represented.

the brain communicates. sense-of-self is part of the machineware that assists its operation. it's but an illusion that "I" am thinking. the thinking areas is where the brain runs on its own, and where sense-of-self overlaps. and presents it on the accessible layers of consciousness.

I still have no idea why people think anyone really "recovers" from suicidality. every decision people take is egosyntonic - "to follow the path of no resistance". if anyone "recovered", it's cuz they now find better meaning than what suicide offers. and that's not something we can squarepeg ourselves into. I didn't create no meanings but I can identify with them when they come.

TL;DR: wall of text concerning neuroscience and philosophy.

Thank you for this. It's put very eloquently.

 

[cambrai33]

You know, it's quite funny (in both senses of the word) that you don't think that hardcore pro-lifers are a thing, yet you're convinced that this forum is pro-choice only in name, which can mean only one thing- that it's full of people who are pro-death. Are hardcore pro-deathers real, but hardcore pro-lifers aren't?

You may be getting the point confused slightly. So Pro-Lifers in the context of the Op are probably people who don't like people to end things without exploring options first like help etc, the OP labels these low key whatever that means. Another group of pro lifers exist outside (and on fake accounts here) and they believe ctb is not an option for anyone because they believe all life is precious. The OP joins both these groups together support his narrative.

So gouls who get a kick out of people dying, yes I would say they probably exist here but not so much in the open, other manifestations are those who's lives are completely fucked and hate everything and everyone, thus believing ctb is not only the light for them but everyone else because……..

It's also interesting that you still think you might get banned.

You may have noticed the framing of the low key pro life narrative and intent behind the post being to discourage help, at least that's how it comes across to me and evidently some others.

Only the mods can ban you. If you don't think that any of them are pro-death rather than pro-choice, why are you worried? You're definitely not the kind of person who would tell someone that vomiting all day every day isn't enough to make them want to end it all, so there's absolutely no reason for you to be so paranoid...

 

[user_name_here]

Do you think that this place is pro-choice only in name too?

I don't know.

I think it's pro-choice on paper, but it also attracts a lot of people with all kinds of intentions. some good, some evil. So in practice, it's a lot more complicated.

 

[Suicidebydeath]

Long thread, so much to reply too as well as read.

It's important to remember that pro-choice means that its just as okay to recover/not want to ctb as it is to want to ctb.

Asking if someone wants to talk about situation is ok imo, and not in the same league as that other stuff. This includes asking if someone is sure about that decision, that's a prelude to asking if someone wants to talk or think about it. We all know that Surv.Inst that is rough and that its unfair to pressure someone either way. It seems that if someone is sure they want to ctb then being asked doesn't deter them.

Remember that an unhealthy amount of paranoia can exist. Its easy to make someone feel awful by accusing them directly without having any proof, that is unacceptable. Especially on a suicide forum, where you can basically be pushing someone to commit suicide by bringing their feelings down.

We should also be as wary as "pro-death" people as "pro-life", because someone here may have an agenda to push that makes SS look bad in the public eye. There are also sick people at both extremes, sick "deathers" and "lifers" here for their own amusement, saviour complex or predatory behaviour, and so on. However not wary to the extent where people are made to feel uncomfortable in their thread, which is something that happened recently when paranoia gets out of hand.

Most of the Pro Lifers in the true sense of the word are screen grabbing threads and not participating in them then putting them on twitter in in a file for later but if it helps you inside to say that then good for you

Yes, they don't really care about any of us.

You know, it's quite funny (in both senses of the word) that you don't think that hardcore pro-lifers are a thing, yet you're convinced that this forum is pro-choice only in name, which can mean only one thing- that it's full of people who are pro-death. Are hardcore pro-deathers real, but hardcore pro-lifers aren't?

I don't know, the way I read that was that @cambrai33 just meant that there's both pro-life and pro-death here. I personally think there's a healthy amount of pro-choice here, but that's how I read that. Not that he meant it was pro-death only here. edit- I just read his explanation of his comment and I agree. I think that some things might that be attacked as "lowkey pro-life" might just be people respecting the right of people to change their mind to ctb, and so on. Which isn't pro-life, that's pro-choice.

It's difficult to know because it was never specified in the OP exactly what they meant by lowkey pro-life, but this post did come after another member was attacked for not wanting to ctb, so it could be related. We'll never know either because they could change their mind now.

 

[Round Two]

Wow, this thread blew the heck up.

Alright, since there seems to be a lot of confusion about what I'm talking about, where my stance is, and also why I think this behavior is harmful no matter what the person's intentions are.

1) Specifically, I'm talking about people who, no matter what their intentions, ask leading questions to extract information from people about their situation. I'm not referring to people legit asking "do you want to talk about it?"--that's fine. No, I'll go a step further and say that's actually helpful. It's reaching out, leaning no way or another, no strings, no motivations, just lending an ear. However, subtly differently saying, "what are the details of these feelings?", or "what led you here?", or "is there anything that might get you to reconsider?", are all leading questions. They're a means of trying to start a discussion over the person's reasons for coming to the decision they've come to.

2) My stance is neither pro-life nor pro-death(for those who didn't bother to read my first response). My stance is pro-choice. And I've seen a lot of things here saying, "well, there's no way to respond without your own will/view/etc. making it in there". Or saying that you'd have to respond in the most basic of ways to achieve this. That's simply not true. Each and every one of you here, if you're a member of this community, has had thoughts of suicide. You may not know exactly what each person is going through, but you should at least be able to empathize at a basic level. And you can communicate that without anything else thrown in. You can say, for example, "I really relate to what you've said", or "gosh, that's a terrible situation", or "I wish the best for you", or any number of other neutral statements, but that would require some careful thought regarding a very serious subject, and I know a lot of people don't want to put in that effort.

3) Now on to why subtlety asking leading questions is harmful, unethical, and insulting.

3.a) The biggest one is harmful. The reason this one is the biggest is because I'm saying this directly to the people who ask these leading questions: you're not helping. You may think, "oh, but I'm saving this person from a terrible mistake", or "I'm just making sure they're super duper sure about this", and I get that. However, what you also have to consider is that almost every single person here has some level of serious trauma. I'm not sure if you're considering this or not, but asking someone to re-live that trauma so that you can feel better about letting them make their own decision could very well be the thing that drives them even further down the road to making that pain and trauma go away. It can be very harmful to subtly drag this information out of people, no matter what your intention is. And that brings us right into why this behavior is unethical.

3.b) You don't know what these people are going through if they don't volunteer it. You have no way of knowing what effect your words are going to have on this person, and you have no right or responsibility to "help" them into what you believe to be a better place, or try to make them reconsider. I wanted to avoid quotes from past posts here since there's no way I could get to all of them, but eryu said something that really encompasses this:

It's such a struggle to commit suicide, all our biology and cultural conditioning are working against us. So it is probably a real kick in the balls for a lot of people when someone comes in to their thread and says something that appeals to their will to live (which means continued, unabated suffering).

3.c) Now onto why it's insulting. This is probably the least important out of all these really important things, but it's worth mentioning anyway. No matter what someone's reasons are for doing what they're doing, you have no idea what it's like for them. Even if you've gone through the same exactly the same thing or have a similar trauma, everyone's experiences and perceptions are different. What could be an average day for me might emotionally scar and destroy another person's sanity. I've said it before on here and I'll reiterate it: no one gets here without careful consideration and understanding the gravity of choosing to die. Asking people if they're sure or to reconsider is a fucking insult to their intelligence and the significance of their pain. They have a right to choose to live or choose to die.

If my understanding of this forum is correct, it's here to be a safe space for people to express how they feel about their own life and their own death, and it's up to us as a community to support one another emotionally and be mature enough to respect that choice.

I'll finish with this, and this is the culmination of my point:
If I were to go into the recovery section of this forum and ask, "Is there anything that might make you reconsider?", would that be helpful? Would that be ethical? No. No, it most certainly fucking wouldn't be.

PS:

You may be getting the point confused slightly. So Pro-Lifers in the context of the Op are probably people who don't like people to end things without exploring options first like help etc, the OP labels these low key whatever that means. Another group of pro lifers exist outside (and on fake accounts here) and they believe ctb is not an option for anyone because they believe all life is precious. The OP joins both these groups together support his narrative.

If you're going to be condescending, at least take the time to get my gender right.