It is unethical to have kids given the state of our world

[The Schizoid]

most animals die by being eaten alive it's pure evil if you can't see that then there is something wrong with you maybe a psychopath
how would you like it it were you being eaten alive

It's painful, but it's not evil. It's like saying cancer is evil. No. Suffering is the cost of admission to life, but that cost is not worth it for some people.

Evil involves a conscious and intelligent being inflicting detriment/harm to others for no justifiable reason. E.G. Modern day rape, child molestation, murder for profit or pleasure, scamming people when you're already rich and want to get richer.

Lions killing Warthogs because if they don't they themselves will die.... that is not evil.

There are more painful ways to die besides being killed. If you're killed and eaten by a lion, you'll be unconscious due to shock within a few minutes. Crocodile death would be 2-3 minutes at most.

Certain illnesses take years to kill someone.

 

[parallelluniverse]

The OP said 'If it is considered immoral and selfish to forcefully take one's life (i.e. murder or suicide) then why is it considered moral to forcefully give life?'...

Moral subjectivity exists, imo moral objectivity does not exist. By that I mean quite simply, life didn't come with a handbook from god explaining what is objectively right to do and what is wrong. Naturally it seems, the species seems to have organised itself in such a way so as to thrive and not be a threat to itself, most likely driven by instinct. But this isn't the point...

If morals are involved they are subjective... morally, maybe having a child and ensuring they can have a pleasant life is the moral lesson. Pain is a feature than ensures this moral lesson eventually gets learned. Without pain and such things, the universe would never develop a planet with people capable of making a pleasant existence where pain was minimised.

It does seem immoral though, and the OP has a great point. It's being forced to participate in nature as a human being, with the possibility it could all go wrong.

My reasons for wanting a child (just one, that's enough for me) are that I would like to see them happy and succeed and help make the world into a better place, and to feel joy and not suffer, be supported in education and loved and not be 'brainwashed' or suffer from bad parenting. I think the principle of pleasure (or joy) is what drives this, to feel successful as a parent, to feel like you contribute, like your kids are educated and contribute, that they can be happy and so can you. But if that's morally right or wrong I think it's impossible to tell, It's a feeling I can't explain. People who have kids but neglect them obvs are probably more morally wrong though. For sure.

 

[The Ninth God]

most animals die by being eaten alive it's pure evil if you can't see that then there is something wrong with you maybe a psychopath
how would you like it it were you being eaten alive

Nature have no morality, much less HUMAN morality. Life is a battleground, it doesn't matter if you're weak, young or disabled; if you can't fight, you die. Also, people telling me to "imagine myself in that situation" makes me laugh; how I consider something is irrelevant, because it's subjective and thus have value only inside my own mind.

 

[Z-A]

Just like I wasn't asked to be here, my children also won't be. I find that unfair and will not contribute to that.

 

[Captive_Mind515]

How is this cruel?

The lions aren't doing this because they enjoy seeing the Warthog suffer. Animals don't torture each other, they kill each other for food, territory, to protect themselves or their young, or just out of fear in general.

I think you're missing the point here. It's not that the Lions are cruel, you are correct they're just doing what they have to do. It's more so that life is a cruel game, where these things are a natural part of the system of living and dying. It's completely fucked up!

Like a lot of people, I used to just say "oh well that's life" or "that's nature - kill or be killed, completely natural".... but something changed in me a few years back and I stopped seeing nature or the world through rose tinted glasses. It's actually horrific if you really step back and think about it. There is a barbaric cruel war going on out there every single day. It's ugly and it's total carnage. It's one of the strong motivating factors why I will be happy to exit this life in the near future - I don't want to be part of such a senselessly cruel ecosystem.

 

[Rogue Proxy]

Like a lot of people, I used to just say "oh well that's life" or "that's nature - kill or be killed, completely natural"....

I think the glorification of nature and the desensitized attitudes towards suffering in nature - and life in general - are two elements of human survival instincts. If anyone completely acknowledged and considered the true horrors of nature, without the cloudy lens of biophilia, aesthetics, optimism bias, ignorance, invalidation, hedonism, sense of duty and purpose, religion, spiritualism, ect., chances are they would hesitate to continue existence and procreate. Granted, human survival instincts are very complex, more so than other organisms. As for human reproduction, it's always driven by their ego and instincts.

 

[Captive_Mind515]

I think the glorification of nature and the desensitized attitudes towards suffering in nature - and life in general - are two elements of human survival instincts. If anyone completely acknowledged and considered the true horrors of nature, without the cloudy lens of biophilia, aesthetics, optimism bias, ignorance, invalidation, hedonism, sense of duty and purpose, religion, spiritualism, ect., chances are they would hesitate to continue existence and procreate. Granted, human survival instincts are very complex, more so than other organisms. As for human reproduction, it's always driven by their ego and instincts.

Funny thing is, we used to be one of these animals not too long ago. We were a super predator… top of the pyramid of apex predators.

Now, most people see us as civilised and removed from the other creatures on earth. But we're still a highly predatory creature… the difference is we've moved on to a much more grand form - predation on the entire planet's resources and the entire eco-system. But unlike those lions, we've bitten off more than we can chew this time!

The fact only a tiny % of people actually give these issues any real deep thought, is quite disturbing. Natural it may very well be, but it's still bonkers to me! lol

I like that Martin Luther King quote: "But I must honestly say there are some things in our nation and the world to which I am proud to be maladjusted…"

That's how I feel when I look at some of the horrible abominable stuff that goes on in this world and is regarded as "natural" "instinctive" or "normal"… I'd rather be abnormal and never become adjusted to it.

 

[FutureHanger]

I don't think it's cruel or evil or a crime or whatever other exaggeration some certain particularly pro mortalist users would use to describe having children but I still think it's wrong to have kids, especially since most people (willingly) having kids already know that life is hard and their kids will suffer so if you know life is suffering then you shouldn't procreate just because you find life tolerable doesn't mean your kid will.

 

[Darkover]

It's painful, but it's not evil. It's like saying cancer is evil. No. Suffering is the cost of admission to life, but that cost is not worth it for some people.

Evil involves a conscious and intelligent being inflicting detriment/harm to others for no justifiable reason. E.G. Modern day rape, child molestation, murder for profit or pleasure, scamming people when you're already rich and want to get richer.

Lions killing Warthogs because if they don't they themselves will die.... that is not evil.

There are more painful ways to die besides being killed. If you're killed and eaten by a lion, you'll be unconscious due to shock within a few minutes. Crocodile death would be 2-3 minutes at most.

Certain illnesses take years to kill someone.

if there was a creator god then he would be utterly evil just because the universe doesn't have intention
doesn't mean it's not evil, just because a animal doesn't know any better than to kill to survive doesn't mean it's not evil, this universe is amoral and completely indifferent to our survival, the fact we are enslaved in fragile delicate shit against a hellhole and made powerless and helpless to do anything about our demise is a slow form of torture we are just brought alive to live out our misery here life is terrifying when facing a slow painful torturess death, the amount of suffering this universe creates is unbelievable it's just maximum death and destruction on this planet nothing for all time would be better then ever being born into this evil universe life is extremely poor quality enslaved in this awful shit in the face of pure evil there's only one solution in a lose-lose situation mutual assured destruction to put an end to this evil that is called "life" to never exist is the miracle the tragedy is to be born just brought alive to live a miserable lifetime and be killed off it should be a crime to bring anything alive here you should be able to sue your parents for bringing you alive to live out your misery here they took the risk in bringing you alive here why should you have to pay the price for thier shitty decisions.

 

[todiefor]

Overall, I don't think there's any objective moral truths about life. From a biological point of view, we are mere animals, if anything survival of the species I guess is the only objective truth to why we exist, that's why sex is biologically so enjoyable. Morality is subjective and your purpose for life is subjective to how you want to spend life on earth.

Not everyone views the world as terrible, and even if some do, many also don't view it as so terrible as for it to be not worth living. Others view life was really wonderful despite suffering, many even perceive life's struggle to be very meaningful. The view on life is subjective and can change over time. So on the contrary, you can also argue that not giving life is applying your own subjective view of life and morality upon a child, who may grow up to have a different opinion. So arguably it is best left for the child themselves to decide how they perceive the world rather than deciding for them. Giving life I guess can be perceived as giving a choice? no consent can be asked before someone is alive and capable of consent. So the choice of life or death is given to the person once they are capable of deciding for themselves. I obviously agree it should be much easier for someone to choose ctb if they decide that's what's best for them.

Whether or not to have a child is a purely individual choice, morality is subjective, I don't have a problem with anyone choosing or not choosing to have children. For me personally, before having a child, to act morally I think the focus should be on understanding the responsibility that comes with having a child who is dependent on u for not just basic necessities but guidance and emotional nourishment. Do you have the money to provide basic necessities? Are you emotionally available to take on such a huge responsibility? Do you have time and energy and patience available for a child who needs you to show them the way and help and support them into becoming independent capable adults able to solve lives complex problems? Having a child is such a thankless task needing endless sacrifice both emotionally and physically. Are you confident you will step up and do the right thing? You can never be quite ready to have a child but I think morally for me, for the child's sake these questions need to asked and too many people don't get anywhere near thinking about the decision from the perspective of the child's welfare. Having a child is not just about receiving love from a small human but more about giving and showing unconditional love to a little human. Are you willing to do your best? Are you capable of such selfless love? Are you willing to put your child's welfare above your own and your own ego? For me personally, those are the subjective moral questions that are important to me.

I personally have always wanted to have a child and I wanted to do it right. So I guess that's the perspective I'm coming from. I still very much do but since I have become suicidal due to some life events I don't think it would be fair to bring a child into the world unless if I have that figured out first. It wouldn't be fair to put my own happiness above a child's.

 

[SilentSadness]

The worst thing about procreation is how the person is considered unable to make decisions until they're an adult, by which point they've already experienced potentially horrific suffering and pro life brainwashing so they repeat it all over again.

 

[Onomatopoeia]

I thought that animals first clamp the carotid arteries with their fangs, then gnaw through them so that the victim dies before being eaten.
It's horrible.

Lions normally do kill their prey by biting their throats. As you can see, one of the lions was trying to suffocate it. But they were starving. They needed food bad. Unfortunately that warthog suffered the worst death ever as a result of those lions being starved to the point of desperation.

That being said, African Wild Dogs and hyenas always eat their prey alive. If you want to go down that rabbit hole on YouTube...

 

[betternever2havbeen]

I believe most people here have hereditary mental illnesses, so breeding a child as dysgenic as you to suffer just as much as you (likely even more due to you having to settle for a very dysgenic spouse in order to compensate for your own low value) would very much be immoral from a utilitarian point of view.

But no doubt your genes are superior to ours which makes me wonder why you're hanging out on here with the "low value" people according to you?

 

[divinemistress36]

You absolutely do not wish you were eaten to death like that. Look at that warthog. Its guts are hanging out, it is being ripped apart, and somehow it is still alive and screaming. That is the worst death ever. And it happens to humans daily, except it is just for fun and not survival and eating like the lions. This whole world is f*d up.

I know you are right I'm just run by emotions not logic

 

[Onomatopoeia]

I know you are right I'm just run by emotions not logic

I know and I get it. Totally.

I've recently been wishing that I was born on this planet as an African Wild Dog. They are the most fascinating species of animal I've ever studied. Always had posters of them in my classroom, and always used them as examples of how a pack can beat one oligarch.

That video of the lions and the warthog disturbed you and I'm genuinely sorry for even posting it. But look at how Wild Dogs kill and eat lion cubs, while holding the mother lion at bay. No individual Wild Dog can beat a lion. But they are so disciplined, so united. I love them. Humans are just a sick, disgusting species that steals all of their ideas from animals.

Watch how the Wild Dogs pounced when the oligarch tries to hurt one of them. Then watch the 38-second mark. That dog is a military commander, telling his pack to regroup. It's so damn fascinating how survival in this cruel, disgusting world works. But Wild Dogs do it for survival. Humans do it, meaning kill and maim other people, for fun. If only humans could be like Wild Dogs, instead of the domesticated weak, annoying dogs in people's house in 2024.

 

[divinemistress36]

Don't be sorry it was still fascinating makes me want to go on a African Safri. The lioness is one tough female. A mythical godess I like her animal is a lion

 

[4.I.2.Must.Die]

This warthog would like a word with you.

Animals hunt to survive, there's no malice or cruelty in this and the behaviour of other animals makes sense when you don't look at it from a narrow-minded human perspective. And no I'm not saying that you are narrow-minded in particular.

 

[divinemistress36]

It's the animal screaming in pain that gets me I know it's nature. But I can go watch gore videos of people and it won't affect me as bad

 

[4.I.2.Must.Die]

It's the animal screaming in pain that gets me I know it's nature. But I can go watch gore videos of people and it won't affect me as bad

Warthogs can have lions clawing in pain too with their tusks and lions can have their jaws bitten off by angry hippos. Nature is far more brutal on a daily basis (regardless of the reasons) than humans on average are to eachother.

 

[sserafim]

It's painful, but it's not evil. It's like saying cancer is evil. No. Suffering is the cost of admission to life, but that cost is not worth it for some people.

Evil involves a conscious and intelligent being inflicting detriment/harm to others for no justifiable reason. E.G. Modern day rape, child molestation, murder for profit or pleasure, scamming people when you're already rich and want to get richer.

Lions killing Warthogs because if they don't they themselves will die.... that is not evil.

There are more painful ways to die besides being killed. If you're killed and eaten by a lion, you'll be unconscious due to shock within a few minutes. Crocodile death would be 2-3 minutes at most.

Certain illnesses take years to kill someone.

Why is life suffering? And why is suffering the cost of admission? Personally I see no point or reason in having to suffer. I wish that I were never admitted to life at all. Life just isn't worth the cost. I'd rather have never been born at all than have to suffer. I never wanted this experience anyways.

 

[Onomatopoeia]

Why is life suffering? And why is suffering the cost of admission?

Buddhists believe that human life is all about suffering. We went to Nepal, Tibet, and other parts of China to hang out with Buddhists. They know and accept that human life is all about suffering. And if you suffer and help others along the way, karma will be good to you in the alleged afterlife.

 

[sceáwere]

But no doubt your genes are superior to ours which makes me wonder why you're hanging out on here with the "low value" people according to you?

No I am certainly the lowest of the low here. I didn't mean to sound patronising, sorry..

 

[divinemistress36]

Why is life suffering? And why is suffering the cost of admission? Personally I see no point or reason in having to suffer. I wish that I were never admitted to life at all. Life just isn't worth the cost. I'd rather have never been born at all than have to suffer. I never wanted this experience anyways.

Some says it's to learn lessons. But if it's all suffering it's not worth it and some of us have learned enough

Buddhists believe that human life is all about suffering. We went to Nepal, Tibet, and other parts of China to hang out with Buddhists. They know and accept that human life is all about suffering. And if you suffer and help others along the way, karma will be good to you in the alleged afterlife.

I love this

 

[darkenmydoorstep]

is it even morally right to have a child?

IMO it is always morally wrong to have a child.

Even if you are of the opinion that there is more good than bad in this world, we have an obligation not to bring harm to others, we have no obligation to bring them happiness.

Children never ask to be created, they are always created due to the whims of their parents. Creating a thinking and feeling being, with the knowledge that there is no certainty you can provide or protect it, is wrong.

if the child ends up hating life on the whole, then it will turn out that producing them was wrong.

I'm a firm proponent of "don't have kids if you can't afford kids" which imo is not controversial. It's not eugenics. It's exactly the same as "You shouldn't get x animal if you can't provide y enclosure"

is it really moral to have children? People argue about the morality of abortion and suicide yet they never stop to think about the fact that a child is forcefully brought into existence. The child is then forced to follow the doctrines of their parents and gain whatever schooling they can.

If it is considered immoral and selfish to forcefully take one's life (i.e. murder or suicide) then why is it considered moral to forcefully give life? There is no permission given to parents, they selfishly bring a child into existence. Not everyone wants to exist.

Why do people celebrate the birth of babies when all they have to look forward to is the drudgery of school, college, and jobs?

I find it difficult to celebrate the fact that another human is subjected to the prison sentence that is this capitalistic life. It feels disingenuous to congratulate someone for becoming pregnant, as everyone else does.

Life is far from perfect. Pain, suffering, and indifference are not only common but guaranteed. Plus when we consider that work takes up the vast majority of our waking hours, it's hard to imagine why we would willingly subject someone else to this kind of existence.

I think it's important to acknowledge that the challenges of life are real and that not everyone will have the same positive experiences. In my view, life is 33% sleep, 40-50% work, and the rest is recreation/pleasure - and that's not a ratio worth celebrating.

I don't mean to be too negative, but I would rather congratulate someone for getting a vasectomy or hysterectomy. By doing so, they're giving their potential child the best gift possible - avoiding the struggles and hardships that come with living in this world.

Completely agree. I think once it was instinctual as it was a natural byproduct of sex and it was the sex people wanted rather than kids. But since we found ways of making that not happen, I think pro creating has been popularised by politicians as a 'norm' because if we didn't have kids as a species, the economy wouldn't grow and ultimately they are all about that. It's also been promoted by religion as a way of extending the numbers of religious people.

 

[Silent_cries]

I knew I wasn't the only one! Every time I see a child I feel so sorry for them thinking about what they're going to go through once they get older. It's so unfair! The way I see it, most children will grow up to either cause suffering or suffer themselves, or both and the few percentages who doesn't does not make up for how broken humanity is as a whole. Imo humans were made too intellegent and thus destroys themselves and everything around them, and thus humans shouldn't exist as a species. Yet we keep multipliyng instead... My only comfort is that all life on earth will eventually go extinct to climate change, although it's sad that all the animals will have to sacrifice themselves because of our actions. :( It really isn't fair!

 

[Christopher Reeve]

Throughout history, many people and even religious groups preach anti-natalism or at least flirt with this idea.
Buddhism has anti-natalist overtones according to the writings of Hari Singh Gour below:

Oblivious of the suffering to which life is subject, man begets children, and is thus the cause of old age and death. If he would only realize what suffering he would add to by his act, he would desist from the procreation of children; and so stop the operation of old age and death.

In bible

³ Yes, happier than the dead or the living seemed he who has not ever been, who has not seen the evil which is done under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 4:3

the heretical Cathar Christians, were in favor of non-procreation, were peaceful but just as governments are with suicides today, they were silenced, but by the sword of the pope in the Albigensian Crusade.
From my point of view, someone like me who entertains the idea of suicide, not bringing a child into the world is my moral duty, if I myself cannot stand this world it would be psychopathy on my part to bring someone else into misery. Even if This hypothetical child would have a life considered as happy as a fairy tale movie, it would still not be worth it, he or she would suffer for something along this path and the end of all lives is death.

my sincere words:

For he did not kill me in the womb,
with my mother as my grave,
her womb enlarged forever.

Why did I ever come out of the womb
to see trouble and sorrow
and to end my days in shame?

Jeremiah 20:17,18

 

[Throwawayacc3]

I knew I wasn't the only one! Every time I see a child I feel so sorry for them thinking about what they're going to go through once they get older. It's so unfair! The way I see it, most children will grow up to either cause suffering or suffer themselves, or both and the few percentages who doesn't does not make up for how broken humanity is as a whole. Imo humans were made too intellegent and thus destroys themselves and everything around them, and thus humans shouldn't exist as a species. Yet we keep multipliyng instead... My only comfort is that all life on earth will eventually go extinct to climate change, although it's sad that all the animals will have to sacrifice themselves because of our actions. :( It really isn't fair!

That was my pattern recognition at secondary school. Bad parents, single parent house and/or trauma was either me (genetics play a part but let's put that aside) or the other side was they become bullies. The worse the household, the more extreme both sides become. One kids family was in poverty from what I saw and his parents are always shouting and arguing (I saw this at a teacher/parent meeting) they were pretty loud - he was out of control most of the time (not a bully) but he was targeted for this. My situation was more quiet and don't bring attention otherwise there is trouble.
Other extreme - picking up chairs (metal legs) and throwing them across the classroom - saw this twice where one time chair hit another student and the teacher actually screamed/shouted - it was an extremely chaotic event. He got suspended but not expelled.

TLDR - this is a catholic school in the UK btw lol. Looks like religion didn't do any good for any of these lot (including me).

 

[Silent_cries]

That was my pattern recognition at secondary school. Bad parents, single parent house and/or trauma was either me (genetics play a part but let's put that aside) or the other side was they become bullies. The worse the household, the more extreme both sides become. One kids family was in poverty from what I saw and his parents are always shouting and arguing (I saw this at a teacher/parent meeting) they were pretty loud - he was out of control most of the time (not a bully) but he was targeted for this. My situation was more quiet and don't bring attention otherwise there is trouble.
Other extreme - picking up chairs (metal legs) and throwing them across the classroom - saw this twice where one time chair hit another student and the teacher actually screamed/shouted - it was an extremely chaotic event. He got suspended but not expelled.

TLDR - this is a catholic school in the UK btw lol. Looks like religion didn't do any good for any of these lot (including me).

There are some ppl who are born into good families too who still end up suffering or becoming bullies or bad people, but I get where you're coming from. I've stopped caring about climate change at this point bc I want the earth to go under so that humanity can go extinct coz it's just too horrible!

 

[TiredOfAllThis]

A lot of people are breeding just to make slaves to serve them at the old age. Also, for societal pressure.

the species seems to have organised itself in such a way so as to thrive and not be a threat to itself

Not applicable to humans though

 

[Raindancer]

Yeah but to survive in nature, animals have to literally fight, kill and eat other living beings…seems pretty cruel to me. We also have to kill and eat other living beings.

I think this is one of the reasons I believe what I do. It wasn't supposed to be this way. We were supposed to all live in harmony, not kill and eat animals. At the beginning all animals were vegetarians, didn't kill each other.