It is sad how this website is not comforting anymore.

[Quiet Desperation]

It saddens me that we can't disagree with each other more respectfully when we're all suffering already. Seems like a good opportunity to apologize to anyone I might have offended with my rambling replies and strident opinions.

 

[OceanBlue]

You cannot say that suicide is a more rational choice for other people. You can only speak for yourself. The generalization of that choice, which you seem to hold to everyone, is pro-death, not pro-choice. If it is invalidating for someone to say suicidal people are delusional, then it is invalidating for you to say non-suicidal people are delusional. It's as simple as that.


Hope and confidence are not necessarily delusions. I'm not going to engage with this point much further, because it's very clear that you're claiming scientific expertise when you have none.


This is cultish thinking, akin to Evangelicals who preach that the devil manipulates people into doing un-Christian things.

Your feelings seem to come from a pro-living bias, where you see it as a preferable choice with pro-suicide side just something to tolerate. What I said, being pro-choice does not imply that pro-living is a more rational decision.

I'm not claiming 'scientific expertise' I said there's research on this that you can and should look up. I'm antinatalist, one of the goals is to minimise the amount of death in the world, so no, I'm not pro-death.

Not a very smart post and to me it reads as a bit pushy towards the pro-living side, without trying to analyse what this choice fully entails including all the possible drawbacks, it's dishonest. Pro-choice does not mean pro-living as a default.

 

[9BBN]

Your feelings seem to come from a pro-living bias, where you see it as a preferable choice with pro-suicide side just something to tolerate. What I said, being pro-choice does not imply that pro-living is a more rational decision.

This is black-and-white thinking. I'm just pointing out a hypocrisy and suddenly you accuse me of a pro-living bias. All I'm saying is that it's invalidating to say people who want to live are delusional. Wouldn't you think it's invalidating for someone else to say suicidal people are delusional?

I'm not claiming 'scientific expertise' I said there's research on this that you can and should look up. I'm antinatalist, one of the goals is to minimise the amount of death in the world, so no, I'm not pro-death.

What's pro-death is saying all people who want to live are delusional and dying is the more rational choice for everyone. Then saying that people who aren't deluded only stay alive because this boogeyman called SI manipulates them into it.

The only issue here was a lack of flawlessly watertight phrasing. Somehow it erupted into World War III.

Maybe that's how it started, but read OceanBlue's posts that RainAndSadness is Liking.

 

[rationaltake]

What I said, being pro-choice does not imply that pro-living is a more rational decision.

Pro-choice does not mean pro-living as a default.

Exactly.

I would have thought that being pro-choice does not imply that any decision is more rational. Neither living nor dying.

I would have thought that being pro-choice means there is no default. Again neither living nor dying.

I think that each person has their own take on it.

If pro-choice were truly available then each person could act on their own choice. That's the salient point for me.

I'm not trying to promote my own personal choice.

I'm trying to promote choice itself. I'd like to think that's one of the things that this site is about.

 

[9BBN]

I agree that being pro-choice doesn't necessarily imply pro-living is a more rational decision. What I'm confronting you about is your belief that pro-living is delusional; SI manipulates us into living when we're not deluded; and the shameless audacity with which you speak for other people about which choice is more rational for them.

it reads as a bit pushy towards the pro-living side, without trying to analyse what this choice fully entails including all the possible drawbacks, it's dishonest. Pro-choice does not mean pro-living as a default.

You are calling my opinion pushy and dishonest? Where am I suggesting pro-living is a default? All I'm daring to suggest is that those who choose to live are not deluded. Really hypocritical of you btw if you think pro-lifers are invalidating when they claim we're deluded.

 

[OceanBlue]

So still enagaging it seems.. I already explained what you were asking.

"What I'm confronting you about is your belief that pro-living is delusional;"

Maybe an example will help:

In ideal world people would be aware enough not to procreate. Since that is probably unlikely and people will continue being born without consent - we have to look at things like legalising elective death in order not to infringe on everyone's bodily autonomy even further.

In the perfect scenario, someone would be able to make a decision to ctb, go through the reasonable process and get approval for a peaceful death with medical professionals etc. In that case (given nothing else happens to them before the set date), a person would be able to say goodbye to the loved ones, sort their affairs and that's it - the future harm is prevented, loved ones are sad, but hopefully understanding knowing it was that person's decision and they left peacefully.

If that person chose to continue living, say because they don't want to put their loved ones through immediate grief, that's their choice, but they should understand that it is also a gamble, because the expected end result is not a certainty and involves hope. This hope is that delusion, because many things can happen to this person that would traumatise his loved ones even more, they could meet their end suddenly, taking opportunity away to say goodbye or any kind of closure. And death is not the worst thing that can happen to us. The 'living' option always includes a possibility of dying at any time, so once a person is born, from our perception, every single second of their life includes the possibility of dying (which is predetermined, but we can't know in advance), so choosing pro-living side is also choosing death, bc it's inevitable, just this time it's not the one you can predict or plan for, only hope for.

It's dishonest not to acknowledge the risks and delusions involved in the pro-living side and FC should have never been criticised for it, it's not talked about often enough, you even called it encouragement, which is really an attempt to censor this conversation. And SI is real and incredibly strong, e.g., it makes people prefer eating other people instead of commiting suicide during famine, I find your reply re:SI quite nasty.

---------------
Some notes:

I noticed that often people react dramatically to the ideas of antinatalism or suicide because of self-importance, the whole anthropocentric worldview that this place is for us and we are special key players in this game. The reality is that this world will end at some point, there's no inherent meaning in life and our species are super predators, actually harmful to everything and everyone else on this planet, so as a vegan I am also very aware that by choosing existence I am also responsible for additional consumption and waste, and even though I try to do activism it's likely not enough to offset all the harm I cause Animals just by existing.

There are many other things in the big picture: the absurdity of existence, being an animal, being a creature made out of flesh. The fact that nature traps you in a cycle of striving for survival, taking care of your daily bodily needs, you are born, age, and die all without consent, and a lack of free-will(!): for people who are aware of this, it's very clearly a prison. Justifying and accepting prison requires quite a bit of delusion, even if it is "the only one we have" and you couldn't expose yourself or others to it without it.

 

[rationaltake]

So still enagaging it seems.. I already explained what you were asking.

"What I'm confronting you about is your belief that pro-living is delusional;"

Maybe an example will help:

In ideal world people would be aware enough not to procreate. Since that is probably unlikely and people will continue being born without consent - we have to look at things like legalising elective death in order not to infringe on everyone's bodily autonomy even further.

In the perfect scenario, someone would be able to make a decision to ctb, go through the reasonable process and get approval for a peaceful death with medical professionals etc. In that case (given nothing else happens to them before the set date), a person would be able to say goodbye to the loved ones, sort their affairs and that's it - the future harm is prevented, loved ones are sad, but hopefully understanding knowing it was that person's decision and they left peacefully.

If that person chose to continue living, say because they don't want to put their loved ones through immediate grief, that's their choice, but they should understand that it is also a gamble, because the expected end result is not a certainty and involves hope. This hope is that delusion, because many things can happen to this person that would traumatise his loved ones even more, they could meet their end suddenly, taking opportunity away to say goodbye or any kind of closure. And death is not the worst thing that can happen to us. The 'living' option always includes a possibility of dying at any time, so once a person is born, from our perception, every single second of their life includes the possibility of dying (which is predetermined, but we can't know in advance), so choosing pro-living side is also choosing death, bc it's inevitable, just this time it's not the one you can predict or plan for, only hope for.

It's dishonest not to acknowledge the risks and delusions involved in the pro-living side and FC should have never been criticised for it, it's not talked about often enough, you even called it encouragement, which is really an attempt to censor this conversation. And SI is real and incredibly strong, e.g., it makes people prefer eating other people instead of commiting suicide during famine, I find your reply re:SI quite nasty.

---------------
Some notes:

I noticed that often people react dramatically to the ideas of antinatalism or suicide because of self-importance, the whole anthropocentric worldview that this place is for us and we are special key players in this game. The reality is that this world will end at some point, there's no inherent meaning in life and our species are super predators, actually harmful to everything and everyone else on this planet, so as a vegan I am also very aware that by choosing existence I am also responsible for additional consumption and waste, and even though I try to do activism it's likely not enough to offset all the harm I cause Animals just by existing.

There are many other things in the big picture: the absurdity of existence, being an animal, being a creature made out of flesh. The fact that nature traps you in a cycle of striving for survival, taking care of your daily bodily needs, you are born, age, and die all without consent, and a lack of free-will(!): for people who are aware of this, it's very clearly a prison. Justifying and accepting prison requires quite a bit of delusion, even if it is "the only one we have" and you couldn't expose yourself or others to it without it.

Thanks for explaining your point of view. Other points of view are available.

 

[9BBN]

I know what antinatalism is already and I'm actually sympathetic to it. The belief that wanting to live is delusional is not antalinatalism, that's promortalism. In my opinion, the decision to keep living is not delusional. And really when you call non-suicidal people delusional you are no better than those who say suicidal people are delusional; it's hypocrisy. Quite telling that you never engage with that part of my argument, it's actually the thrust of it. That's the reason I keep coming back here, you're not acknowledging it. You say I'm dishonest for not acknowledging the risks and delusions of living, but here you are literally not acknowledging any reasons someone would keep living, except the reason of not wanting to traumatize loved ones with a suicide. It's ridiculous.

I bring up cryptic encouragement because telling people they're delusional if they want to keep living is literally the definition of one-sided approval. Uncharitable of you to not take my argument at face value, and instead act like I'm just trying to censor you (and we both know I can't do that anyway, it's actually more likely I get censored considering Rain is liking your comments). I also find it hilarious you think I have any pro-life bend when I'm literally planning to kill myself shortly.

No I don't have a pro-life bend just because I think wanting to live isn't necessarily delusional. The notion that this belief is in any way pro-life is actually horrifying, because by that same logic anyone would have the right to call you pro-death just for thinking that wanting to die isn't necessarily delusional.

You may not like what I said about SI, but it's true that you talk about it that way.

 

[the_town_manager]

You clearly don't have to be delusional (under any normal definition of the word at least) to want to live but it also clearly helps. I'd say it plays an important part in the life-sustaining repertoire of most happy people. It's not for nothing that the majority of the world is still religious. But other things can also do the trick. Obliviousness. Callousness. Love. Hedonism. Living for other people. Luck. Etc. You don't have to have any specific false beliefs about life to want to live. You can just not be all that bothered by all the undeniable negative aspects of life, which any nondelusional person must recognize, because you have some way to compensate.

 

[Idontmatter]

I hate seeing the arguing on the website. We are here to support each other. Many of us are at the end of our rope. Seeing the arguing makes me lose even more hope . I've talked to some very nice people on here and sadly some are no longer with us. My time alive is limited so I'm looking for any hope I can find. I'm always here for anyone who needs to talk. I'm not much, but I enjoy chatting with people on here. I hate myself but I love other people. Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth

 

[rationaltake]

Does the discussion come under the new Politics and Philosophy section?

 

[9BBN]

Does the discussion come under the new Politics and Philosophy section?

The invalidation of those who choose to live by calling them delusional is absolutely fitting for a thread about why this website is not comforting anymore. Look at the way SI is discussed here too, it's literally talked about like I hear Christians talk about the devil. Seriously, if I start a thread titled "suicidal people are delusional," it would not be tolerated. I don't understand how you have the the heart and mind to be both-siding this discussion. Closing your eyes and covering your ears won't change anything about the discomforting, hypocritical attitude toward life and recovery here. Why can't we honest about this forum's failures so we can move forward together stronger than ever?

 

[chocolatebar]

I think I did write about this months ago, but I feel like this even more now. I think that in the past, a long time ago, being on here did comfort me a bit, even know nothing could possibly ever make me feel better and I will always suffer no matter what. I feel like now, there has been too many pro life, harmful and insulting things on here. The last thing that suicidal people need is being made to feel worse. It is a shame how things turn out like this, but after all life is extremely disappointing. Things only seem to get worse.

I just think that in this world people will always be cruel and that is just the way that people are. At this point, it seems as though there is no peace or comfort in this life, there is only pain, and it is tiring trying to distract myself each day, having to deal with this miserable existence. Sometimes I do envy those who come on here for methods and just go. If euthanasia was legalised then this website would not even need to exist in the first place.

This life is so meaningless and temporary but at the same time so painful. I wish I never felt a need to write about this and I wish that I never felt a need to use the forum, if I was gone from this world I would not have to. I wish that I was gone more than anything, but of course dying is not easy. I envy those who have left this life as they are free from suffering, they do not have to deal with pointless life anymore. Non existence is all that I will ever want.

I feel in the same direction. This place used to be like a safe haven for me, a place that didn't resemble the world out there by a single bit, where people actually cared for each other, a place to express what's deep within us without fear.

These days... this place feels like just another online community, a microcosm of out world

But I also question myself: if this place changed so much, didn't I change as well? What have I become? Would my previous self like my current one? Thinking about it makes me feel a bit scarred, I confess.

"You" will not be there to experience non-existence

The topic about non-existence is a heavy one and many people seem to mess up some things, but it's just natural, because it's hard to think about it and there aren't words to describe. Sometimes I think about creating a topic for that, but I can barely answer to a comment here and there without feeling exhausted.

In this case, non-existence isn't an experience itself, but the lack of. The lack of the very self, so, in fact, there's no "you". However, someone can still want to be non-existent, or, in other words, to vanish themselves so that there will be no "you" anymore

 

[rationaltake]

The invalidation of those who choose to live by calling them delusional is absolutely fitting for a thread about why this website is not comforting anymore.

Good point.

Seriously, if I start a thread titled "suicidal people are delusional," it would not be tolerated. I don't understand how you have the the heart and mind to be both-siding this discussion.

I covered this earlier in the thread.

This is the crux of the matter.

If the site is pro-choice we should afford equal respect to those who choose death and those who choose life. I don't feel this is always the case on here. The attitude sometimes seems to be that choosing to live must entail denying the existence of suffering thereby denying reality.

In my experience some people suffer tremendously and want to live whilst others suffer tremendously and want to die. I would expect that both positions are valid personal choices in a pro-choice community.

Why can't we honest about this forum's failures so we can move forward together stronger than ever?

Absolutely agree.

I'm not trying to promote my own personal choice.

I'm trying to promote choice itself. I'd like to think that's one of the things that this site is about.

I understand where you're coming from.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

The recovery section is there because this is a pro-choice forum, it does not mean that the choice to continue living is a more rational choice. And stating that as a personal view is not encouragement.

It's a fact that if we choose to continue living we are delusional, because delusions like confidence and hope actually minimise the death anxiety and that enables us to face all the potential risks of being alive. You can look up the research.

When I choose to stay alive for another day, I understand that mostly it's SI manipulating me into taking on these risks that I am not comfortable taking and delusions are present as well, like hoping it won't get very bad very fast, which is always a possibility. And it's really difficult to call it a "choice" to begin with.

It would be difficult to call suicide delusional, since it prevents all potential harms, which always outweigh potential pleasures in severity and duration.

It's your own choice, but make sure that you think both options through beyond societal indoctrination. If you actually did that, you wouldn't get offended at people pointing out that delusions play a role in this decision.

@OceanBlue i agree with practically everything you say in your posts on this thread. Your posts are confirming a lot of thoughts i had and had heard nowhere else. I hope you can continue posting on this but i understand if not. You should write a book on this : of course there are no books on this topic imo.

How are we going to find out what true reality the truth really is if people aren't allowed to post their different ideas? Many great scientists were prosecuted for new ideas which later proved to be right. this is why this website is so important. This is the only one website where anti-natalism arguments like this can be even posted. I haven't seen this kind of talk anywhere else in the world, irl, youtube, faceook, twitter, instagram, movies, media,news, websites etc no-where else only here. Every where else all i see is the pro-living side and mantra said in many ways but it boils down to the basic mantra "Life is good and Death is very bad" . I happen to believe the oppossite that life is very bad.

i wish i were never born. i wish i could travel back in time and give my ancestors the ever deeper honesty book so maybe they wouldn't have reproduced. But time travel is impossible.

At least i don't have it on my conscience that i brought a child into this world to suffer throughout their life especially in old age. i will never have any children.

If the pro-living mantra deludes me into irrationally risking living one more week then i could have a stroke tomorow then i'll be homeless and brain damaged and suffering even more and then not being able to escape the torture because i won't have the brain power to do it .

i wish more than anything that i wasn't ever born. I've suffered all my life , disabled etc. This can happen to anyone especially at age 80 demented in a nursing home. Now i have to kill these monstrous cells that i'm inprisoned in they call a human body, it's actually a torture chamber. i have to kill "myself" but risk remaining alive with brain damage . if i were never born i wouldn't have to kill myself or suffer pain nor have to do anything.
If i were never born i wouldn't be in this horrible trap.

What am i just a small animal no different than a rat you see killed on the side of the road. That rat has 92% of the exact same genes that i do . so i'm different? no i'm not but just suffering . i am in hell.

Just 2.5% of DNA turns mice into men

Mice and men share about 97.5 per cent of their working DNA, just one per cent less than chimps and humans. The new estimate is based on the comparison of mouse chromosome 16 with human DNA. Previous estimates had suggested mouse-human differences as high as 15 per cent. The new work suggests...

www.newscientist.com

Charles Darwin however was not prosecuted and his new ideas in 1859 were almost immediately accepted and still have not been refuted but confirmed evolution is true.

 

[Pain In The Ass]

I get the feeling this place used to be a giant nihilistic circle jerk!

 

[needforvoid_]

We're unimportant and can't trandescend being a human-agreed. I just think it's hypocritical to say all good shit's an illusion and bad's reality when both are equally products of brain. ❤

Lemme say this: you're delusional for wanting to kill yourself, your pain is not real and any moment something amazing can happen, like unexpectedly that will make you jump up and down

 

[Al Cappella]

We're unimportant and can't trandescend being a human-agreed. I just think it's hypocritical to say all good shit's an illusion and bad's reality when both are equally products of brain. ❤

Lemme say this: you're delusional for wanting to kill yourself, your pain is not real and any moment something amazing can happen, like unexpectedly that will make you jump up and down

That's exactly what I think too. I just don't see the need to get hopping-flipping mad when someone says it's not all bad, and to lapse into this "pro-lifer" shit. That smacks of fanaticism, frankly.

 

[rationaltake]

We're unimportant and can't trandescend being a human-agreed. I just think it's hypocritical to say all good shit's an illusion and bad's reality when both are equally products of brain. ❤

Lemme say this: you're delusional for wanting to kill yourself, your pain is not real and any moment something amazing can happen, like unexpectedly that will make you jump up and down

Bravo! Thanks for cheering me up. I was about to put the word "delusional" on ignore but I'm so glad I didn't as I would have missed your post. I'm so glad "delusional" can bat for both sides.

 

[RainAndSadness]

Look. Pretty much all online spaces out there - that's approximately 99.999999% - are heavily biased towards life. That means there is just one acceptable narrative out there: life is good, no matter what happens you have to keep going, your personal autonomy is a myth. Keep swimming against the drain until you've lost any dignity and self-respect. That's the sentiment in most online spaces. Some even go so far to call the cops on you if they think you're a danger to yourself. That's how much respect and tolerance they have for someones viewpoints and decisions. Navigating in these spaces is very toxic for people who disagree with that mindset. And then we have this forum, which is basically the only place that provides space for different narratives, for different perspectives, for different ideas and for different ethical considerations about life and death. There aren't that many forums out there where you're allowed to voice these thoughts without experiencing radical invaliditation or, even worse, intervention. There are some extremely unregulated places and some tiny cliques where you're allowed to say what you think. But in most forums out there, saying something that favors death over life from a moral perspective will result in people unleashing their worst side on you. I've experienced it all the time myself, people are relentless and vicious and to this day there is one(!) single forum where I know I'm welcome to talk about my suffering and a more (or even inherently) pessimistic outlook on life and that's this forum here. I've tried it over and over again and it just doesn't work anywhere else and I'm very confident the thread of FuneralCry wouldn't have been tolerated in many places out there due to the nature of that topic. So I really don't understand why people think we should police posts that put negative value to life, which in that particular case also is a very philosophic statement and it's a point of view that's strongly correlates with anti-natalism. And it's an opinion a lot of members understand and even relate to because of our own traumatic experiences in life, as I've explained earlier. That doesn't mean it's the empirically correct statement but it's an opinion that has a place here. I'm not gonna censor it. And that's really all that's there to it. That does not mean we're pro-death. But you will obviously, obviously(!) encounter more nihilistic viewpoints that attribute negative values to life in a forum with suicidal people. People that were let down by life due to a variety of reasons. And you're allowed to vent or talk about that in the suicide subforum, especially when it's a point that derives from your own experience.

you're delusional for wanting to kill yourself, your pain is not real

I'm not saying you're "pro-life" but that is indeed an invalidating statement if it's directed at someone personally and if you mind we're still in the suicide discussion subforum. Exactly this type of sentiment will push people away from this forum because the premise that your suffering won't experience invalidation in the suicide discussion subforum is what drives people to this place. It's the guarantee that you're allowed to voice your honest opinion about your suffering but also about your philosophies and world views that have developed as a result of that without all the empty plattitudes, gaslighting and emotional manipulation you experience else where. I think every post that criticized FuneralCry for their thread completely ignored the context and what was actually said. She is simply stating her opinion based on her experience and understanding of life. She starts every paragraph with a description of how life looks like to her. I think the criticism completely misrepresents the point she tried to make. I can't believe I need to clarify that.

 

[needforvoid_]

I was just venting

 

[Symbiote]

 

[OceanBlue]

@pthnrdnojvsc E. Cioran is a good example. As many people on this website will know, he wrote extensively on these topics, which always includes suicide and he kept 'writing himself out of it': "It's not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late.", "A book is a suicide postponed." I think he understood that it may not be the best decision, but he waited it out and ended up getting Alzheimer's, lost the ability to reason and could no longer exit on his own terms.

 

[rationaltake]

So I really don't understand why people think we should police posts that put negative value to life, which in that particular case also is a very philosophic statement and it's a point of view that's strongly correlates with anti-natalism. (...) I'm not gonna censor it.

Thanks for your explanation. I may have missed it but I don't remember anyone asking you to police any posts or censor them. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

All along I have been putting the case for equally respecting both positions. A member said I was both-siding this discussion.

I don't understand how you have the the heart and mind to be both-siding this discussion. Closing your eyes and covering your ears won't change anything about the discomforting, hypocritical attitude towards life and recovery here.

I don't see this as criticising FC at all. It seems to be criticising me and my even-handedness but then mentions the bias against life and recovery on this site.

I don't mind being criticised btw as long as it's not insulting which this post isn't. I actually see it as a compliment in a way.

It seems to me that some of us are just saying that we'd like to be able to express the opinion that life isn't always all bad. I personally don't want either view to be censored.

I do appreciate the point you made that this is one place where people are allowed to express the view that life is bad and they want to die. I agree this is censored in most other places and people need this site to be able to express this view.

There is another view which I find is censored in most other places. My view that life can be good for a privileged few but that my own personal existence is hell so I want to die. The general view is that I should limp along and be grateful. I'm in agony over the life that could have been. For me and all those others who suffer.

I feel censored in general society and I don't always feel my position is acceptable on this site.

Just to say Rain. People like me need this site too!

We're unimportant and can't trandescend being a human-agreed. I just think it's hypocritical to say all good shit's an illusion and bad's reality when both are equally products of brain. ❤

Lemme say this: you're delusional for wanting to kill yourself, your pain is not real and any moment something amazing can happen, like unexpectedly that will make you jump up and down

I understand what you're saying about this post. Would it be acceptable if it was posted in the Recovery Section as a vent? And if the poster made it clear it was an opinion and referred to "people" instead of "you"?

On a personal note I experienced extreme trauma from birth and have multiple severe conditions as a result including DID.

 

[needforvoid_]

Lemme say this: you're delusional for wanting to kill yourself, your pain is not real and any moment something amazing can happen, like unexpectedly that will make you jump up and down

It's a fact that if we choose to continue living we are delusional, because delusions like confidence and hope...

...hoping it won't get very bad very fast, which is always a possibility.

they should understand that it is also a gamble, because the expected end result is not a certainty and involves hope. This hope is that delusion, because many things can happen to this person that would traumatise his loved ones even more, they could meet their end suddenly, taking opportunity away to say goodbye or any kind of closure. And death is not the worst thing that can happen to us. The 'living' option always includes a possibility of dying at any time, so once a person is born, from our perception, every single second of their life includes0 the possibility of dying...

It's not what I actually think, was just making a point. Can't believe I have to clarify that Rain.
I never said FC should be policed. I like her posts and nihilistic posts in general.

I should really chill and not care this much, idk wth is wrong with me sometimes.
Over and out.

 

[OceanBlue]

Also, why these discussions are accused of 'encouragement' is because there's fear that learning about the true nature of the world and existence may shift people's preference towards the pro-suicide side. And the outrage comes from the standard anti-suicide view where everyone instinctively tries to 'save' people from it, most often whilst celebrating pro-natalism - even though the first thing that condemns people to death is creating them. If you understand that reality could be so unpleasant that people may prefer to remove themselves from it, then the reality is the problem not conversations about it. That's why these accusations show a pro-living bias, and since living means putting yourself in danger it could also be called pro-danger, pro-suffering, pro-surprise death bias.

This world is a place where children get cancer (nature is an offender), get r@ped and shot(humans are an offender, humans are created by nature), there's no reasonable way to defend it, it's an oppressive entity. Everything bad that ever happened to or was commited by people is a cost of natalism, most people think it's a reasonable collateral.. is anything you consider pleasurable in life worth a kid being shot or dying from cancer? If you're willing to argue this side, then at least research all the biases that compel you to do this, cause it's irrational, unreasonable, and disturbing.

 

[WorthlessTrash]

Honestly, life is only worth it for those that don't suffer. FC has a right to feel the way she does and people have a right and people who want to live and find it fulfilling have a right to feel that way. In the end, we're just screaming into the void and at anyone who will listen. I don't believe FC's words to have been malicious. Can she word them better? Possibly. At the end of the day though, this site is a safe heaven to vent frustrations and people should not take it to heart unless they are directly antagonized.

 

[9BBN]

If you've been reading my posts I'm making it clear I'm not criticizing FC, I've actually been focusing on OceanBlue's post here that Rain liked. I'm not going to repeat myself more.

I find it odd that Rain takes Needforvoid's sarcasm seriously:

Lemme say this: you're delusional for wanting to kill yourself, your pain is not real and any moment something amazing can happen, like unexpectedly that will make you jump up and down

I'm not saying you're "pro-life" but that is indeed an invalidating statement if it's directed at someone personally

The whole point is the hypocrisy that this is considered invalidating while OceanBlue's post isn't. Is it really that hard to restrain yourselves from calling other people delusional? You are doing the exact same shit the pro-lifers do.
The bit you added at the end, "if it's directed at someone personally," is dishonest. A statement like "you're delusional for wanting to kill yourself" is invalidating, full stop, whether it's directed at someone personally or not. The real reason you're tolerating this invalidation of suicide now is because you have committed to enabling the invalidation of those who want to live.

Exactly this type of sentiment will push people away from this forum

OK, but using your exact same logic, the reverse sentiment that "people who want to live are delusional," will push people away from living: suicide encouragement (!)

 

[RainAndSadness]

[...]
I understand what you're saying about this post. Would it be acceptable if it was posted in the Recovery Section as a vent? And if the poster made it clear it was an opinion and referred to "people" instead of "you"?
[...]

Regarding your question, I'd like to respond with a question myself. Do you think it's appropiate to invalidate someones suicidal ideation in this forum? Even if it's posted in the recovery section? I mean, it's a community that essentially recognises the right to die, right? I'd actually question if that's the right forum for that member in your hypothetical scenario if they have the intention to invalidate someones suicide ideation and imply that their suffering isn't real. At first glance that seems highly inappropiate even for the recovery section, I don't think talking down your struggles and gaslighting yourself into recovery is very helpful for your journey towards a better life but I guess it highly depends on the context and the content of that thread. I just don't think the statement you proposed belongs to a community that recognises the right to die and that's subjected to persistent invalidation. We're constantly confronted with the sentiment that we're delusional in real life. All of us. We get involuntary committed for no reason, even when we're able to justify and reason our desire to die in a rational manner, we're still treated as insane people. It doesn't matter what we do. And even the vast majority of the online space is heavily biased towards one "pro-life" narrative. And we're here because we want to escape the gaslighting we experience everywhere in our every day life because we know we can talk about our subjective experience without invalidation we would otherwise receive in other places. Does that make sense? Again the Sanctioned Suicide subreddit was banned from Reddit because the open talk about suicide and related topics "violated" their guidelines, just to give you some history - which brings me back to my initial point in my previous post about there being no space for people like us. But you have basically a quadrillion places out there to say that suicide is wrong. Suicide is delusional. Suicide is bad. I could go on and on. You can say this on every single website out there, nobody is even gonna challenge that as a controversial statement, let's be honest here. You would probably even garner an audience that applauds you for these brave and bold statements. But you have almost no alternatives to this website when you want to express a sentiment that is negative towards life. And that's the difference I think.

[...]
OK, but using your exact same logic, the reverse sentiment that "people who want to live are delusional," will push people away from living: suicide encouragement (!)

She didn't say that people who want to live are delusional in her title, she said they must be delusional, as in "I can't believe people want to live in this horrible world". The following text in her initial post makes that very clear, that's how I read it at least. But I don't want to interpret the meaning of her thread. This will be my last post here anyway, I don't think this discussion leads anywhere. I see what was actually written in her post and the meaning of said thread is obvious to me, she even clarified later on that wanting to live is valid. So she isn't really taking anything away from people who want to live. I know what she meant. And I just don't agree with judging the entire thread on its title in a vacuum when there is more to it. And that's all I have to say about this topic on my behalf.

 

[9BBN]

She didn't say that people who want to live are delusional in her title, she said they must be delusional, as in "I can't believe people want to live in this horrible world". The following text in her initial post makes that very clear, that's how I read it at least. But I don't want to interpret the meaning of her thread. This will be my last post here anyway, I don't think this discussion leads anywhere. I see what was actually written in her post and the meaning of said thread is obvious to me, she even clarified later on that wanting to live is valid. So she isn't really taking anything away from people who want to live. I know what she meant. And I just don't agree with judging the entire thread on its title in a vacuum when there is more to it. And that's all I have to say about this topic on my behalf.

Again, I'm not talking about FC, I don't know why you keep bringing that up. I'm talking about OceanBlue saying, "It's a fact that if we choose to continue living we are delusional," which is much stronger than what FC said, and btw you "Liked" this post. I think it's hypocritical of you to not only enable that kind of invalidating statement but also to give it a Like, when you would not allow a pro-lifer to say the same thing about suicidal people.
The fact that every other forum out there is pro-life does not grant you the immunity to promote pro-death rhetoric and censor pro-life rhetoric while under the guise of being pro-choice. Either make it a forum that respects invalidating statements from either side, or a forum that doesn't tolerate invalidating statements from either side. You can argue that FC's post is grey area, but OceanBlue's post which you Liked crosses the line, much more clearly.