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Dark Window

Dark Window

Forest Wanderer
Mar 12, 2024
511
Example 1

So on another thread I posted a comment in response to a person who says their reason for wanting CTB is chronic pain after an accident.

In response to this comment, I said this

Man, that's one thing I'm glad I've never had. So sorry about this.

Is there anything more that can be done medically for you?

Any sane, reasonable person would probably agree that there's nothing wrong with this. It is not me denying him his right to die, nor is it saying he is wrong for wanting to die. I am simply concerned for his wellbeing and would love for this person to be healed and get better. That is all?

I have made posts like this before, and have been called a pro-lifer, but today I received another response and it really pissed me off. See below -

I'm sorry, I no can be quiet anymore. You give me pro-life vibes. If you pro-life then why you here? What do you get out of trying to talk ppl out of ctb? If no, then why you act like one? Ppl choice are their business, not yours! Some things have no solution, thus life is inhumane to them, why you no understand? Maybe me saying this against rules, but someone had to say something...

Thankfully, most of you a reasonable, and recognise that you can support someone's right to CTB and also want them to get better.

It is beyond belief that someone would have an issue with someone showing empathy and concern for someone's wellbeing, and consider it "pro-life" simply to ask if there's anything that can be done to get better?

Even the person who I was responding to with chronic pain showed positivity in response to what I said.

----

Example 2

Another example is there was a thread posted by a girl who was in the middle of a CTB attempt with SN which was obviously impulsive and poorly planned. Many of us, including me, showed concern and said there's no harm in backing out now and waiting for a better time.

And some people in the comments section I will not mention, literally started to flame us as if we have no place to show concern and challenge their decision. But we did so out of empathy for them, not because we don't respect their right to die, but because we don't want them to make impulsive decisions and also end up hurting themselves with terribly planned CTB attempts.

And do you know what? The girl in questions literally said "I have regrets" while her CTB attempt was happening, strengthening the absolute necessity to challenge people who are suicidal on their mental clarity and planning.

Do some of you really want to encourage Suicide? Do you really feel good when someone impulsively decides to CTB? Surely you want their CTB to be well planned and thought out?

You can say all I want that "how do you know it wasn't well though out", "stop making assumptions". It was not based on assumptions, the evidence was all well documented in what they posted.

---------

The main reason many people attempt suicide is not because they love or want death, but it's because they are suffering and want to end that suffering. It is absolutely reasonable to assume that if you took away people's problems that they'd no longer want to CTB, as evidenced by the amount of threads on this board where people give their reasons for wanting CTB, and it's not because they having some death fetish or even a lack of interest in a good life, but because they are having shitty lives because of mental or physical illness, or poor life circumstances, among other things.

Plenty of research shows that a massive percentage of people who survive a suicide attempt are glad that they failed eventually when things get better. So it is very important that we make sure that people have thought things through.

What I want is -

1) If I could give happiness to all of you, I would. And if I could give it to you, and take away your problems, most of you would not want to CTB anymore. It is of the upmost importance, if we really want to consider ourselves on the right side of morality compared to "pro-lifers", that we make sure people are not attempting impulsively without thinking things through, and also that their plans are well made and they're not just going to end up hurting themselves in a terrible failed attempt.

BUT....

2) I respect 100% your right to die if you want. It's your body, your life. Many of you have perfectly rational reasons to die, but some of you can be helped. To all of you who say "mind your own business", realise many people share their reasons for wanting to CTB on here, so you cannot share your reasons and opinions on the subject and expect to be exempt from all criticism or differing opinions.

3) Another thing I want is for attempts to help or save others to not be viewed as "pro-life" evil. Most of us on here are not psychopaths! We care for others, and what most of us want for people besides their right to make their own decisions is a lack of suffering and also positive intentions like happiness.

YOU CAN SUPPORT PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO DIE WHILST ALSO WANTING TO HELP THEM GET BETTER! THE TWO THINGS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE!!!

3b) STOP accusing well intentioned people who are just trying to help others as "pro-lifers".

There are some suicides on here that I don't try to prevent or interfere with, nor do I question further if their reasons seem absolutely solid. I enquire as to why they are doing it and what they've tried, which most people are more than happy to share, despite them having the right to say nothing.

But some people either A) Have clearly not thought through their decision, and are doing it impulsively, and inference may be necessary to prevent a terrible failed attempt or awful death. You do not have to be a "pro-lifer" to want to reduce suffering. B) Have issues that seem a lot more fixable that others, and therefore giving these people life changing advice that could work may lead to a better life, which is is what most of us would have preferred.

--------------------------------

Why this conversation is also important?

Because this is NOT a pro-suicide forum, it is a pro-choice forum. If we go around accusing those who want to help others as "pro-lifers", as if any attempt to save a person is a bad thing, then we are a pro-suicide forum, and should be shut down.

If we're going to in anyway defend ourselves we need to be a pro-choice forum that merely supports people's right to choose we're not here to encourage anyone to kill themselves, nor promote a negative view on improving ones life through getting help.

--------

Final thoughts.

TL;DR - If there's anything I want you to take from this is that trying to help others, which may include convincing someone not to die because there's maybe a way forward, IS NOT A BAD THING.

There's a difference between trying to help others and denying them their rights completely.

Interfering by giving advice, questioning people or showing concern =/= Holding someone hostage and stopping them from making their own decisions.
 
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AllMyDreams

AllMyDreams

Experienced
Dec 12, 2021
279
100% the fact that we believe suicide is a human right does not mean that suicide is the default option, or that we shouldn't try and help people find alternatives if the situation makes sense. I remember Example 2. It was awful.
 
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goodoldnoname923

goodoldnoname923

Wanting to find peace
Mar 28, 2024
835
Ok 1st up what is wrong with "trying to save someone" like this is a pro choice forum and personally i find the people or are pro life as annoying as deathers. Their both as bad as one another like most people here say "we hope you find peace and happiness however that may be" wether it be CTB'ing or finding happiness within your existence or solving your problem like wtf?


As for your 2nd example thats the pro death people for you that are as just as toxic "it doesn't matter how you die just do it life is pain" like you wanna go out in the most peaceful way possible as you put it yourself suicide isn't a pleasure its a solution to problems that seemingly or indefinitely don't have one
 
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Dark Window

Dark Window

Forest Wanderer
Mar 12, 2024
511
100% the fact that we believe suicide is a human right does not mean that suicide is the default option, or that we shouldn't try and help people find alternatives if the situation makes sense. I remember Example 2. It was awful.
It was. Hope she got help or is at peace in death.
 
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TheGoodGuy

TheGoodGuy

Visionary
Aug 27, 2018
2,916
If there's anything I want you to take from this is that trying to help others, which may include convincing someone not to die because there's maybe a way forward, IS NOT A BAD THING.
Yes it is, that is a pro-life mindset the keyword in that sentence being "convincing" someone not to ctb I am also pretty concern it´s against the rules to talk people out of a suicide attempt. We get enough of people convincing us not to die out in society and literally ANY other forum on the internet so that doesn´t belong here at all.

There's a difference between trying to help others and denying them their rights completely.
On this forum people help with suicide methods if you wanna help people you should be looking for the Recovery section.
Do you really feel good when someone impulsively decides to CTB?
Yes I do! These suicidal people have suffered for many years so if their impusilve suicide happens to work out then they will experience no more pain and suffering in life and for many of us we might never feel mentally ready to ctb so we will just be stuck in limbo for years or decades and the only hope for peace is if an impusilve attempt happens to work out.

Also for people like me and others like me also on this forum who suffers from extreme anhedonia and apathy there is no longer any drive to ctb no extreme sadness or excitement to ctb so looking back I wish I would´ve killed myself when I was still a teenager in particular I am thinking back when I was seriously planning to kill myself at 18-19, back then I was still an emotional teenager with depression fuelled by sadness back then the sadness almost felt (in lack of a better word) good, yeah ít felt good to cry and let the feelings out and fantasize about suicide.

My point being I wish I´d rather ctb when I had the drive to do it which people who impusilvely ctb have because they are very emotional and that gives them the drive to do it, now many of us are only stuck with the logical and rational reasons to ctb but there is no drive to do it so yes I feel good when I hear people impulsively killed themselves because their years of suffering is over and now they will never wake up 10,15 or 20 years in the future thinking they should´ve killed themselves back when they had the emotional drive to do it and have spared themselves from decades of suffering.

EDIT: I also would like to add that when people on this forum make threads about weird and unreliable ways to ctb e.g. drinking some household chemical (rare threads but they have been here), or otc meds like paracematol (common threads on here) or using a knife to ctb (also common there even is a thread on this earlier today) we do INFORM them that these methods are unreliable and possibly very painful but informing people about these things is VERY different from convincing them not to ctb.
 
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ForgottenAgain

ForgottenAgain

On the rollercoaster of sadness
Oct 17, 2023
636
I agree with everything said, example 2 stuck to me and I still think about that girl. Wondering if she died regretting it, wondering if she is okay.

I think a lot of people don't have the nuance to see what you just explained. Several people here hold extremist views and simply can't grasp nuance. I'm glad to see someone that holds the same thought process as me.

Really well written, well done.
 
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AllMyDreams

AllMyDreams

Experienced
Dec 12, 2021
279
Yes it is, that is a pro-life mindset the keyword in that sentence being "convincing" someone not to ctb I am also pretty concern it´s against the rules to talk people out of a suicide attempt. We get enough of people convincing us not to die out in society and literally ANY other forum on the internet so that doesn´t belong here at all.


On this forum people help with suicide methods if you wanna help people you should be looking for the Recovery section.

Yes I do! These suicidal people have suffered for many years so if their impusilve suicide happens to work out then they will experience no more pain and suffering in life and for many of us we might never feel mentally ready to ctb so we will just be stuck in limbo for years or decades and the only hope for peace is if an impusilve attempt happens to work out.

Also for people like me and others like me also on this forum who suffers from extreme anhedonia and apathy there is no longer any drive to ctb no extreme sadness or excitement to ctb so looking back I wish I would´ve killed myself when I was still a teenager in particular I am thinking back when I was seriously planning to kill myself at 18-19, back then I was still an emotional teenager with depression fuelled by sadness back then the sadness almost felt (in lack of a better word) good, yeah ít felt good to cry and let the feelings out and fantasize about suicide.

My point being I wish I´d rather ctb when I had the drive to do it which people who impusilvely ctb have because they are very emotional and that gives them the drive to do it, now many of us are only stuck with the logical and rational reasons to ctb but there is no drive to do it so yes I feel good when I hear people impulsively killed themselves because their years of suffering is over and now they will never wake up 10,15 or 20 years in the future thinking they should´ve killed themselves back when they had the emotional drive to do it and have spared themselves from decades of suffering.
I understand where you're coming from but everyone is different. Some people like you may have wished they'd impulsively CTB'd earlier, but some may have gotten better if they hadn't CTB'd.

I think since this is a pro-choice forum it's good to have different perspectives. I'm not saying we should say things like "Don't kill yourself ever" or "You have so much to live for" without even knowing the person. But if someone is saying they want to CTB because of a situation that appears potentially fixable I think it's a good thing to talk to them about it, and make sure, for example, that they have tried other options before deciding to CTB. Or if they appear unsure, that they know what to do if they change their mind during the attempt. Otherwise you get cases like Example 2 which was just heartbreaking.
 
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4am

4am

there’s nothing for you (it/its)
Dec 14, 2023
3,332
link to example 2?
 
Silent_cries

Silent_cries

I wish I could delete my trauma...
Aug 10, 2021
981
Example 1

So on another thread I posted a comment in response to a person who says their reason for wanting CTB is chronic pain after an accident.


In response to this comment, I said this



Any sane, reasonable person would probably agree that there's nothing wrong with this. It is not me denying him his right to die, nor is it saying he is wrong for wanting to die. I am simply concerned for his wellbeing and would love for this person to be healed and get better. That is all?

I have made posts like this before, and have been called a pro-lifer, but today I received another response and it really pissed me off. See below -



Thankfully, most of you a reasonable, and recognise that you can support someone's right to CTB and also want them to get better.

It is beyond belief that someone would have an issue with someone showing empathy and concern for someone's wellbeing, and consider it "pro-life" simply to ask if there's anything that can be done to get better?

Even the person who I was responding to with chronic pain showed positivity in response to what I said.

----

Example 2

Another example is there was a thread posted by a girl who was in the middle of a CTB attempt with SN which was obviously impulsive and poorly planned. Many of us, including me, showed concern and said there's no harm in backing out now and waiting for a better time.

And some people in the comments section I will not mention, literally started to flame us as if we have no place to show concern and challenge their decision. But we did so out of empathy for them, not because we don't respect their right to die, but because we don't want them to make impulsive decisions and also end up hurting themselves with terribly planned CTB attempts.

And do you know what? The girl in questions literally said "I have regrets" while her CTB attempt was happening, strengthening the absolute necessity to challenge people who are suicidal on their mental clarity and planning.

Do some of you really want to encourage Suicide? Do you really feel good when someone impulsively decides to CTB? Surely you want their CTB to be well planned and thought out?

You can say all I want that "how do you know it wasn't well though out", "stop making assumptions". It was not based on assumptions, the evidence was all well documented in what they posted.

---------

The main reason many people attempt suicide is not because they love or want death, but it's because they are suffering and want to end that suffering. It is absolutely reasonable to assume that if you took away people's problems that they'd no longer want to CTB, as evidenced by the amount of threads on this board where people give their reasons for wanting CTB, and it's not because they having some death fetish or even a lack of interest in a good life, but because they are having shitty lives because of mental or physical illness, or poor life circumstances, among other things.

Plenty of research shows that a massive percentage of people who survive a suicide attempt are glad that they failed eventually when things get better. So it is very important that we make sure that people have thought things through.

What I want is -

1) If I could give happiness to all of you, I would. And if I could give it to you, and take away your problems, most of you would not want to CTB anymore. It is of the upmost importance, if we really want to consider ourselves on the right side of morality compared to "pro-lifers", that we make sure people are not attempting impulsively without thinking things through, and also that their plans are well made and they're not just going to end up hurting themselves in a terrible failed attempt.

BUT....

2) I respect 100% your right to die if you want. It's your body, your life. Many of you have perfectly rational reasons to die, but some of you can be helped. To all of you who say "mind your own business", realise many people share their reasons for wanting to CTB on here, so you cannot share your reasons and opinions on the subject and expect to be exempt from all criticism or differing opinions.

3) Another thing I want is for attempts to help or save others to not be viewed as "pro-life" evil. Most of us on here are not psychopaths! We care for others, and what most of us want for people besides their right to make their own decisions is a lack of suffering and also positive intentions like happiness.

YOU CAN SUPPORT PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO DIE WHILST ALSO WANTING TO HELP THEM GET BETTER! THE TWO THINGS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE!!!

3b) STOP accusing well intentioned people who are just trying to help others as "pro-lifers".

There are some suicides on here that I don't try to prevent or interfere with, nor do I question further if their reasons seem absolutely solid. I enquire as to why they are doing it and what they've tried, which most people are more than happy to share, despite them having the right to say nothing.

But some people either A) Have clearly not thought through their decision, and are doing it impulsively, and inference may be necessary to prevent a terrible failed attempt or awful death. You do not have to be a "pro-lifer" to want to reduce suffering. B) Have issues that seem a lot more fixable that others, and therefore giving these people life changing advice that could work may lead to a better life, which is is what most of us would have preferred.

--------------------------------

Why this conversation is also important?

Because this is NOT a pro-suicide forum, it is a pro-choice forum. If we go around accusing those who want to help others as "pro-lifers", as if any attempt to save a person is a bad thing, then we are a pro-suicide forum, and should be shut down.

If we're going to in anyway defend ourselves we need to be a pro-choice forum that merely supports people's right to choose we're not here to encourage anyone to kill themselves, nor promote a negative view on improving ones life through getting help.

--------

Final thoughts.

TL;DR - If there's anything I want you to take from this is that trying to help others, which may include convincing someone not to die because there's maybe a way forward, IS NOT A BAD THING.

There's a difference between trying to help others and denying them their rights completely.

Interfering by giving advice, questioning people or showing concern =/= Holding someone hostage and stopping them from making their own decisions.
Look, I quoted the incorrect post, you called someone arrogant, that no okay!
Yes it is, that is a pro-life mindset the keyword in that sentence being "convincing" someone not to ctb I am also pretty concern it´s against the rules to talk people out of a suicide attempt. We get enough of people convincing us not to die out in society and literally ANY other forum on the internet so that doesn´t belong here at all.


On this forum people help with suicide methods if you wanna help people you should be looking for the Recovery section.

Yes I do! These suicidal people have suffered for many years so if their impusilve suicide happens to work out then they will experience no more pain and suffering in life and for many of us we might never feel mentally ready to ctb so we will just be stuck in limbo for years or decades and the only hope for peace is if an impusilve attempt happens to work out.

Also for people like me and others like me also on this forum who suffers from extreme anhedonia and apathy there is no longer any drive to ctb no extreme sadness or excitement to ctb so looking back I wish I would´ve killed myself when I was still a teenager in particular I am thinking back when I was seriously planning to kill myself at 18-19, back then I was still an emotional teenager with depression fuelled by sadness back then the sadness almost felt (in lack of a better word) good, yeah ít felt good to cry and let the feelings out and fantasize about suicide.

My point being I wish I´d rather ctb when I had the drive to do it which people who impusilvely ctb have because they are very emotional and that gives them the drive to do it, now many of us are only stuck with the logical and rational reasons to ctb but there is no drive to do it so yes I feel good when I hear people impulsively killed themselves because their years of suffering is over and now they will never wake up 10,15 or 20 years in the future thinking they should´ve killed themselves back when they had the emotional drive to do it and have spared themselves from decades of suffering.

EDIT: I also would like to add that when people on this forum make threads about weird and unreliable ways to ctb e.g. drinking some household chemical (rare threads but they have been here), or otc meds like paracematol (common threads on here) or using a knife to ctb (also common there even is a thread on this earlier today) we do INFORM them that these methods are unreliable and possibly very painful but informing people about these things is VERY different from convincing them not to ctb.
This is exactly what I try to say. Thank you!
 
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willitpass

willitpass

Don’t try to offer me help, I’ve tried everything
Mar 10, 2020
1,823
I think some people here have confused empathy and compassion for "pro-life". Very few people here feel happiness when someone CTB. We're happy they're no longer suffering, but it's still such an awful thing that an entire soul is gone. Someone felt so horrible that they took their entire being away and that isn't a beautiful thing. If someone here has the potential to get better and live a happy life I absolutely want that for them. I only offer help to people who haven't sought it before and seem desperate for it, as well as seeking like they may actually benefit from it. I would never tell someone whose in my shoes (been suicidal since I was 10, ran out of treatment options years ago, nothing left for me even though I'm in my early 20s) to stick it out, but if someone says they've never tried therapy before, why is it so bad to offer they try it before they take away their entire existence? If someone says "no I have no interest in trying to get help" then that's their choice. I won't argue. Placing a bit of value on life isn't some evil sin like some people think to believe it is. You can want people to be alive and well and accept that people can chose to CTB.
 
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J

Jorms_McGander

Arcanist
Oct 17, 2023
478
Example 1

So on another thread I posted a comment in response to a person who says their reason for wanting CTB is chronic pain after an accident.

In response to this comment, I said this



Any sane, reasonable person would probably agree that there's nothing wrong with this. It is not me denying him his right to die, nor is it saying he is wrong for wanting to die. I am simply concerned for his wellbeing and would love for this person to be healed and get better. That is all?

I have made posts like this before, and have been called a pro-lifer, but today I received another response and it really pissed me off. See below -



Thankfully, most of you a reasonable, and recognise that you can support someone's right to CTB and also want them to get better.

It is beyond belief that someone would have an issue with someone showing empathy and concern for someone's wellbeing, and consider it "pro-life" simply to ask if there's anything that can be done to get better?

Even the person who I was responding to with chronic pain showed positivity in response to what I said.

----

Example 2

Another example is there was a thread posted by a girl who was in the middle of a CTB attempt with SN which was obviously impulsive and poorly planned. Many of us, including me, showed concern and said there's no harm in backing out now and waiting for a better time.

And some people in the comments section I will not mention, literally started to flame us as if we have no place to show concern and challenge their decision. But we did so out of empathy for them, not because we don't respect their right to die, but because we don't want them to make impulsive decisions and also end up hurting themselves with terribly planned CTB attempts.

And do you know what? The girl in questions literally said "I have regrets" while her CTB attempt was happening, strengthening the absolute necessity to challenge people who are suicidal on their mental clarity and planning.

Do some of you really want to encourage Suicide? Do you really feel good when someone impulsively decides to CTB? Surely you want their CTB to be well planned and thought out?

You can say all I want that "how do you know it wasn't well though out", "stop making assumptions". It was not based on assumptions, the evidence was all well documented in what they posted.

---------

The main reason many people attempt suicide is not because they love or want death, but it's because they are suffering and want to end that suffering. It is absolutely reasonable to assume that if you took away people's problems that they'd no longer want to CTB, as evidenced by the amount of threads on this board where people give their reasons for wanting CTB, and it's not because they having some death fetish or even a lack of interest in a good life, but because they are having shitty lives because of mental or physical illness, or poor life circumstances, among other things.

Plenty of research shows that a massive percentage of people who survive a suicide attempt are glad that they failed eventually when things get better. So it is very important that we make sure that people have thought things through.

What I want is -

1) If I could give happiness to all of you, I would. And if I could give it to you, and take away your problems, most of you would not want to CTB anymore. It is of the upmost importance, if we really want to consider ourselves on the right side of morality compared to "pro-lifers", that we make sure people are not attempting impulsively without thinking things through, and also that their plans are well made and they're not just going to end up hurting themselves in a terrible failed attempt.

BUT....

2) I respect 100% your right to die if you want. It's your body, your life. Many of you have perfectly rational reasons to die, but some of you can be helped. To all of you who say "mind your own business", realise many people share their reasons for wanting to CTB on here, so you cannot share your reasons and opinions on the subject and expect to be exempt from all criticism or differing opinions.

3) Another thing I want is for attempts to help or save others to not be viewed as "pro-life" evil. Most of us on here are not psychopaths! We care for others, and what most of us want for people besides their right to make their own decisions is a lack of suffering and also positive intentions like happiness.

YOU CAN SUPPORT PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO DIE WHILST ALSO WANTING TO HELP THEM GET BETTER! THE TWO THINGS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE!!!

3b) STOP accusing well intentioned people who are just trying to help others as "pro-lifers".

There are some suicides on here that I don't try to prevent or interfere with, nor do I question further if their reasons seem absolutely solid. I enquire as to why they are doing it and what they've tried, which most people are more than happy to share, despite them having the right to say nothing.

But some people either A) Have clearly not thought through their decision, and are doing it impulsively, and inference may be necessary to prevent a terrible failed attempt or awful death. You do not have to be a "pro-lifer" to want to reduce suffering. B) Have issues that seem a lot more fixable that others, and therefore giving these people life changing advice that could work may lead to a better life, which is is what most of us would have preferred.

--------------------------------

Why this conversation is also important?

Because this is NOT a pro-suicide forum, it is a pro-choice forum. If we go around accusing those who want to help others as "pro-lifers", as if any attempt to save a person is a bad thing, then we are a pro-suicide forum, and should be shut down.

If we're going to in anyway defend ourselves we need to be a pro-choice forum that merely supports people's right to choose we're not here to encourage anyone to kill themselves, nor promote a negative view on improving ones life through getting help.

--------

Final thoughts.

TL;DR - If there's anything I want you to take from this is that trying to help others, which may include convincing someone not to die because there's maybe a way forward, IS NOT A BAD THING.

There's a difference between trying to help others and denying them their rights completely.

Interfering by giving advice, questioning people or showing concern =/= Holding someone hostage and stopping them from making their own decisions.

You're not in the wrong. Other users should know better than to behave like that. The resolve to CTB is a personal thing and you won't be able to change my behaviour once I am prepared because I won't be harbouring guilt and negative emotions anymore.

What you experienced is people who are harbouring negative emotions about their own suicides. They projected that onto you. They need to process their own feelings of guilt rather than attack you for suggesting that people might be able to CTB without a team of cheerleaders, of their own volition and without dear (edit: I meant deer)

If I'm wrong flag me to a moderator and explain what I've said in the wrong and the moderator will explain to me that I need to change my behaviour here.

I also suggest you do that every time you end up verbally attacked. IMHO you're helping people process. Suicide is a solution but when people aren't clear on wanting it for themselves it would cross a line to encourage them. I'm sure if I look into the sticky thread on pro-suicide views here, I will find more perspective relevant to your experience.

Sorry people tried to exclude you.
 
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Silent_cries

Silent_cries

I wish I could delete my trauma...
Aug 10, 2021
981
Dark Window
Experienced
Mar 18, 2024
Add bookmark
#54
RemainingDubious said:
Things decay overtime. Our sun will even burn out one day.


Yes i'm sure. Years ago (before my reality was this bad) a psychologist or psychiatrist (when i was in a psychiatric hospital and they were trying to get me on the right medication) said he thinks the reason medications aren't doing what they're supposed to very well, is because i don't just have a chemical imbalance in my brain. my heart is full of pain too.


ignorance isn't a solution.
I never said anything about ignorance did I?

Sigh. I really do find it sad when someone thinks they've figured everything out and therefore don't need to bother being open to other ideas.

If you want to have a deeper discussion about this, feel free to DM me if you're willing to put aside your arrogance.

I've had similar experiences to what you are describing.
----------------------------------
This is what I meant to quote. I see you try to talk ppl out of ctb multiple times, you even have with me. I'm no accusing you of anything. I just felt the need to say how I feel. Being talked out of ctb is no always what ppl need. Sometimes ppl just need to be understood. I'm glad you being supportive to ppl, but pls no talking ppl out of ctb if they say no, it can be very tiring when ppl does that. That all I'm trying to say rly.
 
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4am

4am

there’s nothing for you (it/its)
Dec 14, 2023
3,332
yeah the second example girl was probably regretful because of the pain she was in, not because of a conscious decision. when you're in pain you obviously want it to end. i don't think that her situation was sad, because it was just a natural reaction to pain. anyway i'm happy she succeeded because now she's at peace
 
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H

Hotsackage

Elementalist
Mar 11, 2019
848
I think everyone should be allowed to voice their opinion, within reason. We are all smart people, which have been given a terrible deal at life. So let's all just get along. If people want to ctb, that's their prerogative, if some stick around then that's theirs. I mean this isn't ww2 Germany
 
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A

Anon1337

Mage
Oct 1, 2018
527
It really depends on the context. When I'm venting I find advice unhelpful. All I want is for people to understand and relate.
 
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anhedonya

anhedonya

Use common sense!
Apr 14, 2024
159
I could not agree more. I know this is completely hypocritical considering I'm walking around talking about CTB and expecting everyone to remain calm and just accept it- but I cannot be a bystander for others. Yes, we have the right to choose whether we want to be here, and I will uphold that. I would never place someone in a psych ward and destroy their life like that. But I can't just watch either, I have to make an effort. Like willitpass said, it is not happy or good that people commit suicide. It shows there's something DEEPLY wrong with our society that isn't being fixed. So why is it so awful to show basic empathy and compassion to people suffering and try to offer kindness before going all "I wish you peace go die now btw you need another cup to make it work"? Several times I have had people misconstrue my basic kindness as me being a pro lifer- we need nuance in these discussions.

All I'm saying is when I go, I don't want people posting "I hope she's at peace now" and all that other stuff. The fact that I'm gone will be sad. I could've had a life. It should be treated as a regrettable event that could've been prevented by the world.

Honestly there's many bad apples on this site that I think actively enjoy watching people's goodbye threads and seeing them fail or stop responding or slowly stop being able to type. People who like to be cheerleaders for it. It's sickening and we need sensitivity when talking about these things- sensitivity and nuanced approaches about it all.
 
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Silent_cries

Silent_cries

I wish I could delete my trauma...
Aug 10, 2021
981
I think everyone should be allowed to voice their opinion, within reason. We are all smart people, which have been given a terrible deal at life. So let's all just get along. If people want to ctb, that's their prerogative, if some stick around then that's theirs. I mean this isn't ww2 Germany
Exactly, and you should be allowed to be honest if you dislike something ppl say or do. I was just trying to be honest about how I feel. I was in no way trying to accuse anything. There is a difference.
 
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WoNkEy_DoNkEy

WoNkEy_DoNkEy

As Useful As A Chocolate Teapot 🫖
Apr 6, 2024
187
@Dark Window I totally agree with most of what you've said even though it's mostly a minority that are potential repeat culprits. I would just say that referencing a specific user probably isn't a good idea as the message you were quoting was more important.
 
R

rozeske

Maybe I am the problem
Dec 2, 2023
2,972
@anhedonya out of curiosity, what do you wish to see on people's goodbye threads then? I doubt that I have ever seen a 'go die now' comment on one of those, I honestly don't know where you got that from but anyway, other than wishing someone peace, which all of us are searching for, what are the magical words you would like to see or say for yourself on those goodbye threads that would automatically change the persons circumstances so they don't go through the act of suicide?
 
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anhedonya

anhedonya

Use common sense!
Apr 14, 2024
159
@anhedonya out of curiosity, what do you wish to see on people's goodbye threads then? I doubt that I have ever seen a 'go die now' comment on one of those, I honestly don't know where you got that from but anyway, other than wishing someone peace, which all of us are searching for, what are the magical words you would like to see or say for yourself on those goodbye threads that would automatically change the persons circumstances so they don't go through the act of suicide?
It was a bit of an over exaggeration as people aren't allowed to quite literally say "go ahead and xyz now hurry up", but many people push the line and sound too... encouraging. I personally cannot engage with goodbye threads because like I said, I can't just stand by, nor would I personally make one myself as I don't expect others to stand by that far for me either. But for the goodbye threads I did see during my time lurking before I joined, I'd like to see people treating it as a sad event rather than a way to find peace. I know there's not really a lot you can say to a person about to kill themselves hundreds of miles away from your location, but honestly anything besides "I hope you find peace, by the way make sure you have an extra cup just in case you need it" as your first response would be SO much better.

Again, my words are being misconstrued by yet another person as being pro life. I never said people shouldn't have the choice and should be forced to stay alive. I said we need nuance.
 
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willitpass

willitpass

Don’t try to offer me help, I’ve tried everything
Mar 10, 2020
1,823
It was a bit of an over exaggeration as people aren't allowed to quite literally say "go ahead and xyz now hurry up", but many people push the line and sound too... encouraging. I personally cannot engage with goodbye threads because like I said, I can't just stand by, nor would I personally make one myself as I don't expect others to stand by that far for me either. But for the goodbye threads I did see during my time lurking before I joined, I'd like to see people treating it as a sad event rather than a way to find peace. I know there's not really a lot you can say to a person about to kill themselves hundreds of miles away from your location, but honestly anything besides "I hope you find peace, by the way make sure you have an extra cup just in case you need it" as your first response would be SO much better.

Again, my words are being misconstrued by yet another person as being pro life. I never said people shouldn't have the choice and should be forced to stay alive. I said we need nuance.
I think there's nuance even to what you are saying. It can be a sad event AND a way for someone to find peace. It's horribly sad they couldn't find peace in life, and they are now at peace. It is awful that they couldn't find life livable, and I'm happy they no longer have to suffer. You can be glad someone is pain free while being happy they are out of their suffering. It's no different than someone who died of cancer. It's horrible they had cancer but they aren't in pain anymore. I personally think wishing someone peace is a great thing to say, especially when phrased as "I hope you find peace in whatever decision you make", meaning if they don't do it you are wishing them to find something meaningful in living.
 
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lostinwoe

lostinwoe

woefully bound to death.
Mar 1, 2024
154
Example 1

So on another thread I posted a comment in response to a person who says their reason for wanting CTB is chronic pain after an accident.

In response to this comment, I said this



Any sane, reasonable person would probably agree that there's nothing wrong with this. It is not me denying him his right to die, nor is it saying he is wrong for wanting to die. I am simply concerned for his wellbeing and would love for this person to be healed and get better. That is all?

I have made posts like this before, and have been called a pro-lifer, but today I received another response and it really pissed me off. See below -



Thankfully, most of you a reasonable, and recognise that you can support someone's right to CTB and also want them to get better.

It is beyond belief that someone would have an issue with someone showing empathy and concern for someone's wellbeing, and consider it "pro-life" simply to ask if there's anything that can be done to get better?

Even the person who I was responding to with chronic pain showed positivity in response to what I said.

----

Example 2

Another example is there was a thread posted by a girl who was in the middle of a CTB attempt with SN which was obviously impulsive and poorly planned. Many of us, including me, showed concern and said there's no harm in backing out now and waiting for a better time.

And some people in the comments section I will not mention, literally started to flame us as if we have no place to show concern and challenge their decision. But we did so out of empathy for them, not because we don't respect their right to die, but because we don't want them to make impulsive decisions and also end up hurting themselves with terribly planned CTB attempts.

And do you know what? The girl in questions literally said "I have regrets" while her CTB attempt was happening, strengthening the absolute necessity to challenge people who are suicidal on their mental clarity and planning.

Do some of you really want to encourage Suicide? Do you really feel good when someone impulsively decides to CTB? Surely you want their CTB to be well planned and thought out?

You can say all I want that "how do you know it wasn't well though out", "stop making assumptions". It was not based on assumptions, the evidence was all well documented in what they posted.

---------

The main reason many people attempt suicide is not because they love or want death, but it's because they are suffering and want to end that suffering. It is absolutely reasonable to assume that if you took away people's problems that they'd no longer want to CTB, as evidenced by the amount of threads on this board where people give their reasons for wanting CTB, and it's not because they having some death fetish or even a lack of interest in a good life, but because they are having shitty lives because of mental or physical illness, or poor life circumstances, among other things.

Plenty of research shows that a massive percentage of people who survive a suicide attempt are glad that they failed eventually when things get better. So it is very important that we make sure that people have thought things through.

What I want is -

1) If I could give happiness to all of you, I would. And if I could give it to you, and take away your problems, most of you would not want to CTB anymore. It is of the upmost importance, if we really want to consider ourselves on the right side of morality compared to "pro-lifers", that we make sure people are not attempting impulsively without thinking things through, and also that their plans are well made and they're not just going to end up hurting themselves in a terrible failed attempt.

BUT....

2) I respect 100% your right to die if you want. It's your body, your life. Many of you have perfectly rational reasons to die, but some of you can be helped. To all of you who say "mind your own business", realise many people share their reasons for wanting to CTB on here, so you cannot share your reasons and opinions on the subject and expect to be exempt from all criticism or differing opinions.

3) Another thing I want is for attempts to help or save others to not be viewed as "pro-life" evil. Most of us on here are not psychopaths! We care for others, and what most of us want for people besides their right to make their own decisions is a lack of suffering and also positive intentions like happiness.

YOU CAN SUPPORT PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO DIE WHILST ALSO WANTING TO HELP THEM GET BETTER! THE TWO THINGS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE!!!

3b) STOP accusing well intentioned people who are just trying to help others as "pro-lifers".

There are some suicides on here that I don't try to prevent or interfere with, nor do I question further if their reasons seem absolutely solid. I enquire as to why they are doing it and what they've tried, which most people are more than happy to share, despite them having the right to say nothing.

But some people either A) Have clearly not thought through their decision, and are doing it impulsively, and inference may be necessary to prevent a terrible failed attempt or awful death. You do not have to be a "pro-lifer" to want to reduce suffering. B) Have issues that seem a lot more fixable that others, and therefore giving these people life changing advice that could work may lead to a better life, which is is what most of us would have preferred.

--------------------------------

Why this conversation is also important?

Because this is NOT a pro-suicide forum, it is a pro-choice forum. If we go around accusing those who want to help others as "pro-lifers", as if any attempt to save a person is a bad thing, then we are a pro-suicide forum, and should be shut down.

If we're going to in anyway defend ourselves we need to be a pro-choice forum that merely supports people's right to choose we're not here to encourage anyone to kill themselves, nor promote a negative view on improving ones life through getting help.

--------

Final thoughts.

TL;DR - If there's anything I want you to take from this is that trying to help others, which may include convincing someone not to die because there's maybe a way forward, IS NOT A BAD THING.

There's a difference between trying to help others and denying them their rights completely.

Interfering by giving advice, questioning people or showing concern =/= Holding someone hostage and stopping them from making their own decisions.
I agree with a lot of this except things like "some of you can be helped" idk about you guys but i only come on here to find ways to off myself not find mental help ig there are some people that need/want help but there's a recovery channel for a reason these self help posts are overcoming suicide posts for ex. posts like "anyone wanna talk" or just the random questions or even what i see a lot ppl just saying every method is very painful to try to get you to not try it, i honestly think trying to convince a suicidal person that theres another way or to get help is a disgusting and horrible thing to do because its just repeating their process over and over instead of finally escaping and being at peace, all it does is prolong peoples suffering

maybe im wrong tho who knows
 
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R

rozeske

Maybe I am the problem
Dec 2, 2023
2,972
It was a bit of an over exaggeration as people aren't allowed to quite literally say "go ahead and xyz now hurry up", but many people push the line and sound too... encouraging. I personally cannot engage with goodbye threads because like I said, I can't just stand by, nor would I personally make one myself as I don't expect others to stand by that far for me either. But for the goodbye threads I did see during my time lurking before I joined, I'd like to see people treating it as a sad event rather than a way to find peace. I know there's not really a lot you can say to a person about to kill themselves hundreds of miles away from your location, but honestly anything besides "I hope you find peace, by the way make sure you have an extra cup just in case you need it" as your first response would be SO much better.

Again, my words are being misconstrued by yet another person as being pro life. I never said people shouldn't have the choice and should be forced to stay alive. I said we need nuance.
I think what you don't understand is there is a big difference between supporting someone in their decision regarding their life and their choice to end their suffering and encouraging someone to go die. When someone wants to die and makes it clear that they don't want to survive their attempt or worse survive it as a vegetable telling them a second cup is recommended is not encouragement but an advice and those things are discussed in the suicide methods discussion. As the name indicates it's a discussion about suicide, what kills you is what will be discussed. How the world is unfair that someone has to commit suicide and how sad it is someone takes this action is discussed or just written under venting.

You have only mentioned what you wish to not see but you still haven't shared with us examples of what you wish to see written under GTs that would be helpful to the poster or their situation?
 
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willitpass

willitpass

Don’t try to offer me help, I’ve tried everything
Mar 10, 2020
1,823
I agree with a lot of this except things like "some of you can be helped" idk about you guys but i only come on here to find ways to off myself not find mental help ig there are some people that need/want help but there's a recovery channel for a reason these self help posts are overcoming suicide posts for ex. posts like "anyone wanna talk" or just the random questions or even what i see a lot ppl just saying every method is very painful to try to get you to not try it, i honestly think trying to convince a suicidal person that theres another way or to get help is a disgusting and horrible thing to do because its just repeating their process over and over instead of finally escaping and being at peace, all it does is prolong peoples suffering

maybe im wrong tho who knows
I think many of the methods being strongly discussed right now ARE painful. I come from a medical background as well as having tried many methods to CTB and when I comment that someone trying VSED or injecting water into their heart is painful I am saying it out of genuine concern for the person. Sometimes people I think just say that out of fear without a true base for things (hanging for example, if done properly, shouldn't be very painful) but I think many times it is well founded.
 
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anhedonya

anhedonya

Use common sense!
Apr 14, 2024
159
I think there's nuance even to what you are saying. It can be a sad event AND a way for someone to find peace. It's horribly sad they couldn't find peace in life, and they are now at peace. It is awful that they couldn't find life livable, and I'm happy they no longer have to suffer. You can be glad someone is pain free while being happy they are out of their suffering. It's no different than someone who died of cancer. It's horrible they had cancer but they aren't in pain anymore. I personally think wishing someone peace is a great thing to say, especially when phrased as "I hope you find peace in whatever decision you make", meaning if they don't do it you are wishing them to find something meaningful in living.
^ This is what I mean for sure. Thank you for the response! I feel like if I keep responding to rozeske it's just going to clog the thread with two people that can't agree so I'm using this message instead to give an example. That is exactly what I mean by nuance and trying to use sensitivity, compassion, and kindness. Even my own words can have many different ways to be viewed and can be subjective when asked a more personal, direct way of what I "want" to see. And there is definitely a compassionate way to handle goodbye threads if it's the right person doing so, such as you with the way you speak about it, who does have good intentions and is not trying to be overly encouraging. I think phrasing is also very important to it all, that's a good addition to the point.

But yes, as a general response, this is exactly what I mean by nuance and what I'd like to see people on here implement within their daily lives and conversations. ❤️ Thanks again!!
 
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lostinwoe

lostinwoe

woefully bound to death.
Mar 1, 2024
154
I think many of the methods being strongly discussed right now ARE painful. I come from a medical background as well as having tried many methods to CTB and when I comment that someone trying VSED or injecting water into their heart is painful I am saying it out of genuine concern for the person. Sometimes people I think just say that out of fear without a true base for things (hanging for example, if done properly, shouldn't be very painful) but I think many times it is well founded.
for those methods I agree i cant say anything on the pain part since i don't know anything abt it, but I'm talking about when people just completely discourage methods like partial hanging I saw a post of someone saying that partial hanging is a complete lie(because of stuff others said) but when they actually tried they almost passed out w/o pain i think instead of discouraging methods like that we should instead just teach people how to do them properly, also a thing I've seen a lot with people discouraging methods because of the risk of being brain dead w/o giving advice they say it like becoming brain dead is super common and if you make the smallest mistake it will happen

i just don't like posts like these cause it puts more fear into everything, and it works great on stopping people cause suicidal people are usually more vulnerable
 
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willitpass

willitpass

Don’t try to offer me help, I’ve tried everything
Mar 10, 2020
1,823
for those methods I agree i cant say anything on the pain part since i don't know anything abt it, but I'm talking about when people just completely discourage methods like partial hanging I saw a post of someone saying that partial hanging is a complete lie(because of stuff others said) but when they actually tried they almost passed out w/o pain i think instead of discouraging methods like that we should instead just teach people how to do them properly, also a thing I've seen a lot with people discouraging methods because of the risk of being brain dead w/o giving advice they say it like becoming brain dead is super common and if you make the smallest mistake it will happen

i just don't like posts like these cause it puts more fear into everything, and it works great on stopping people cause suicidal people are usually more vulnerable
At this point most new discourse on methods is simply needless repetition. I think people need to have enough media literacy to look at mega threads before starting new threads, as it's turning into a game of telephone where things are being distorted over time and people do not go and fact check. This is incredibly dangerous when it comes to people playing with life and death. Even in your most desperate moments, it is still important to use some critical thinking and do your own research. However, I don't think that these are due to people being pro-life and trying to sway people, I think it is coming from people who are misinformed and anxious.

Especially with all of the misinformation being spread around, it's even more important to ask people to stop and self reflect when they appear anxious, unsure, or seem to have picked up false information about something. That does not make someone pro-life.
 
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Dark Window

Dark Window

Forest Wanderer
Mar 12, 2024
511
Yes it is, that is a pro-life mindset the keyword in that sentence being "convincing" someone not to ctb I am also pretty concern it´s against the rules to talk people out of a suicide attempt. We get enough of people convincing us not to die out in society and literally ANY other forum on the internet so that doesn´t belong here at all.


On this forum people help with suicide methods if you wanna help people you should be looking for the Recovery section.

Yes I do! These suicidal people have suffered for many years so if their impusilve suicide happens to work out then they will experience no more pain and suffering in life and for many of us we might never feel mentally ready to ctb so we will just be stuck in limbo for years or decades and the only hope for peace is if an impusilve attempt happens to work out.

Also for people like me and others like me also on this forum who suffers from extreme anhedonia and apathy there is no longer any drive to ctb no extreme sadness or excitement to ctb so looking back I wish I would´ve killed myself when I was still a teenager in particular I am thinking back when I was seriously planning to kill myself at 18-19, back then I was still an emotional teenager with depression fuelled by sadness back then the sadness almost felt (in lack of a better word) good, yeah ít felt good to cry and let the feelings out and fantasize about suicide.

My point being I wish I´d rather ctb when I had the drive to do it which people who impusilvely ctb have because they are very emotional and that gives them the drive to do it, now many of us are only stuck with the logical and rational reasons to ctb but there is no drive to do it so yes I feel good when I hear people impulsively killed themselves because their years of suffering is over and now they will never wake up 10,15 or 20 years in the future thinking they should´ve killed themselves back when they had the emotional drive to do it and have spared themselves from decades of suffering.

EDIT: I also would like to add that when people on this forum make threads about weird and unreliable ways to ctb e.g. drinking some household chemical (rare threads but they have been here), or otc meds like paracematol (common threads on here) or using a knife to ctb (also common there even is a thread on this earlier today) we do INFORM them that these methods are unreliable and possibly very painful but informing people about these things is VERY different from convincing them not to ctb.

Impulsive implies that they didn't think it through, which is never good a thing. It may work out for some people, but the more impulsive it is, the the increased chances of it being a disaster for the person involved.

Surely any reasonable individual would agree that it's probably better to think through the decision to CTB before you do it?

How is impulsive suicide ever any better?

The more impulsive it is the more likely -

A) It will be a Poor/rushed attempt and therefore failed attempt, or a far more painful death.
B) They haven't reviewed all of their options and therefore may have been able to create a better life if they did think it through more
C) They get desperate and do it in a way that brings harm to others directly, such as throwing themselves in front of a vehicle.

There is absolutely not benefit in a suicide being less thought through and more impulsive.. Or at least the pros don't outweigh the cons.

Also where in the rules does it state that convincing someone not to kill themselves is against the rules?

Convincing them does not = forcing them not to. You could convince someone to remain alive for many different reasons that are not manipulative.

You're almost implying that convincing someone not to do something is a negative thing, as if it's a form of manipulation, which it may not be.

I could convince someone not to do it because I make them aware that I and others care about them, and that gives them reason to live. And what if that person goes on to resolve their issues and lives a good life now? How is that a bad end result? If the only thing stopping them is that they changed their mind because of what you've said, they still maintain their individual autonomy anyway!!!

Convincing someone not to kill themselves doesn't necessarily involve any manipulation, coercion, lying or any necessarily detriment to the person being convinced to stay alive.

If you've been convinced to remain alive, then there's a good chance you're not ready to do it yet anyway.

If someone on the internet can make an argument to convinces me to stay alive, then I'll accept i'm not 100% sure, therefore I should consider holding off.
 
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