Discussion Important - There a big issue here with people accusing others of being "pro-life" far too much.

[Lifeaffirmingchoice]

Ok so the neutral action in your view is to let them ctb? Thanks now I understand what kind of person you are. You don't know the circumstances so instead of trying to understand them you should just let the person ctb. For teenagers the same thing I assume right? Wicked.

We aren't talking about just SaSu here. We are talking about regular life, since, I assume you take your philosophy on life and death irl it is possible to make a connection. So yes, if you saw a person under drug induced psychosis jump out of the window and you wouldn't know whether they had psychosis or not, by your logic you should just let them ctb since interfering in their circumstances is wrong, according to you. Again, wicked

No we are talking about SaSu specifically. It's a very different situation for someone to mention suicide vs finding their way here. They latter means they likely put a lot of thought into their decision already.

For me all this thread did is highlight the users who do lean more towards being pro life.

I don't see life as precious at all, there's over 8.1 billion people alive right now over populating the earth and nothing in the world will change if you, me or anyone else dies, it doesn't mean anything.
No one is special and I wouldn't waste my time trying to talk someone out of suicide on this forum, if they wanted actual help they would be on one of the thousands of websites or hotlines for help, not the one forum for sourcing methods and other suicidal people.

Do it now, do it in a few decades, never do it.. It's all the same. I couldn't give a fk when anyone dies or for what reason. I feel nothing when I read goodbye threads. They can't regret or feel anything once they're dead so what does it matter? No use feeling bad for them, they're dead, it's not like they are going to miss the life they didn't live out.

If this makes me a bad person then you know what, I don't give a fk about that either.

Exactly. All this is straight facts.

 

[Abyssal]

M

At this point most new discourse on methods is simply needless repetition. I think people need to have enough media literacy to look at mega threads before starting new threads, as it's turning into a game of telephone where things are being distorted over time and people do not go and fact check. This is incredibly dangerous when it comes to people playing with life and death. Even in your most desperate moments, it is still important to use some critical thinking and do your own research. However, I don't think that these are due to people being pro-life and trying to sway people, I think it is coming from people who are misinformed and anxious.

I say that there's never too much tbh
im as against the whole "tell me how to die" and "is OD painful" shit as much as others, but ultimately I'd rather people go over their thoughts on what they may do to harm themselves than not. We might save someone from doing something crazy stupid or have the chance to correct misinformation. I'd rather they do research and read threads but I'd also rather be able to tell them "no don't do that, that's stupid and you will regret it" than act impulsively.

 

[4am]

You mean the funeralcry type? This is what I do: I block them. Block funeralcry right now, you will find it will ease SO SO SO much stress.

dawg if one user who doesn't even interact with you causes you so much stress i think you might be not okay

 

[Lifeaffirmingchoice]

You mean the funeralcry type? This is what I do: I block them. Block funeralcry right now, you will find it will ease SO SO SO much stress.

FC's posts are like my background music to this site. I would never mute that. Sometimes it's annoying but it mostly adds to the atmosphere and is deeply congruent with it.

 

[Abyssal]

dawg if one user who doesn't even interact with you causes you so much stress i think you might be not okay

I'm literally on SaSu, why would I be okay?

 

[Abyssal]

well i guess whatever condition you have you might add FCDS to it

Idk what that means but it do be like that though. Her posts make me feel unwelcome here, like I don't deserve to have anywhere to talk about my suicidal feelings. Hilariously makes me wish I was more dead which is ironic.

Between anxiety itself and being bullied for not fitting in, the implication that I'm a cancer to this site is triggering as fuck. That's probably why I'm lore dropping on you rn lolol.

That said, the feeling disappeared when i stopped seeing her posts lol

 

[Whale_bones]

That's not how any of this works

Attempters’ Longterm Survival

Nine out of ten people who attempt suicide and survive will not go on to die by suicide at a later date. This has been well-established in the suicidology literature. A literature review (Owens 2002) summarized 90 studies that have followed over time…

www.hsph.harvard.edu

Nine out of ten people who attempt suicide and survive will not go on to die by suicide at a later date.

So in "most cases" as you said. It's actually looking quite the opposite. Having depression stay with you your whole life is a pretty rare occasion

So you are happy that perfectly normal people who had a bump down the road and ctbed are now at peace when they had a full chance to live a normal life after overcoming the bump?

Sometimes a cry for help is the attempt in itself

The way in which you comment on the linked information doesn't properly represent the facts. The page you linked includes the phrase "history of suicide attempt is one of the strongest risk factors for suicide. 5% to 11% of hospital-treated attempters do go on to complete suicide, a far higher proportion than among the general public", to make it clear that one of their conclusions IS that previous attempts indicate a much higher likelihood of completed suicide in the future.

Your own comment seems to be claiming the opposite, but that's not what this page says. Additionally, many of their sources are from over 20 years ago, in the 90s and early 2000s. We have much more up-to-date statistics available.

The World Health Organization reports that "a previous suicide attempt was the single most important risk factor for suicide in general populations, and there may be more than 20 suicide attempts for each adult-completed suicide". This study, published in 2017, also found that "there is a close relationship between attempted suicide and completed suicide" and "With increased number of suicide attempts, the risk of reattempting suicide resulting in death increases". You get the picture. This is well established.

Yes, of course some people have a "bump in the road"; a single suicide attempt. But we all KNOW about the "life has ups and downs" "you'll get over this" "it's just a bad time" story; we weren't born yesterday, many of us first heard that decades ago. SS is the one place we can go where that won't be the assumption. In so many facets of life it's literally assumed that your suffering isn't bad enough to rationally consider suicide, *without* someone knowing even one line of your story. Even when you know many of the people saying those things couldn't last a day in your shoes. It's utterly exhausting and defeating.

So yes, use discretion when responding to posts, if it makes sense to give advice or suggestions, then do. For me, the pro life aspect comes in when someone didn't ask for advice at all, and isn't expressing uncertainty about what they want, then someone else comes in with the unsolicited "but have you tried everything?"

I would just hope that people pause before they assume *they* know something the poster doesn't. I'm nowhere near perfect myself, I sometimes feel conflicted when someone is young or things like that. But remember, we're only getting a tiny glimpse of people's lives here, and this might be the one place where someone can express themselves without having to go into a detailed, distressing story to justify their pain. So when they say things are that bad, we should not assume we know different. That is the essence of pro choice, remembering that each of us is the expert on our own lives.

 

[DreamEnd]

No we are talking about SaSu specifically. It's a very different situation for someone to mention suicide vs finding their way here. They latter means they likely put a lot of thought into their decision already.

not really, finding the site and then going to do a deed doesn't always equal a long and carefully considered decision. Yes, they found the site and the methods here but all of that could be done as a result of an impulsive decision during a short term suicidal crisis

Exactly. All this is straight facts.

this is your interpretation of life and doesnt reflect the reality of it at all. Most people are content with their lives

The way in which you comment on the linked information doesn't properly represent the facts. The page you linked includes the phrase "history of suicide attempt is one of the strongest risk factors for suicide. 5% to 11% of hospital-treated attempters do go on to complete suicide, a far higher proportion than among the general public", to make it clear that one of their conclusions IS that previous attempts indicate a much higher likelihood of completed suicide in the future.

Your own comment seems to be claiming the opposite, but that's not what this page says. Additionally, many of their sources are from over 20 years ago, in the 90s and early 2000s. We have much more up-to-date statistics available.

approximately 23% reattempted non-fatally, and 70% had no further attempts. thats 70% percent of people not attempting further. Sources dont mean anything, this is a meta analysis of tens of studies around the topic.

The World Health Organization reports that "a previous suicide attempt was the single most important risk factor for suicide in general populations, and there may be more than 20 suicide attempts for each adult-completed suicide". This study, published in 2017, also found that "there is a close relationship between attempted suicide and completed suicide" and "With increased number of suicide attempts, the risk of reattempting suicide resulting in death increases". You get the picture. This is well established.

This doesnt explain anything. Yes, people who attempt are more likely to die by suicide in the future compared to those who havent attempted that is obvious. But the desistance rate in the study I link still remains the same at 70%

Yes, of course some people have a "bump in the road"; a single suicide attempt. But we all KNOW about the "life has ups and downs" "you'll get over this" "it's just a bad time" story; we weren't born yesterday, many of us first heard that decades ago. SS is the one place we can go where that won't be the assumption. In so many facets of life it's literally assumed that your suffering isn't bad enough to rationally consider suicide, *without* someone knowing even one line of your story. Even when you know many of the people saying those things couldn't last a day in your shoes. It's utterly exhausting and defeating.

To some people yeah sure, not to others though. Some people are impulsive and decide to commit ctb when they are in a short suicidal crisis when they really need help and if they do get help they have a chance of recovering and livin a happy life. My point is: if you do not care about the circumstances than you should be okay with anyone ctbing at any time. Are you sure you want to go there?

So yes, use discretion when responding to posts, if it makes sense to give advice or suggestions, then do. For me, the pro life aspect comes in when someone didn't ask for advice at all, and isn't expressing uncertainty about what they want, then someone else comes in with the unsolicited "but have you tried everything?"

So? there was a thread some months ago of a guy wanting to ctb because he couldnt find a job leavinh his wife and kids. But no, we shouldnt question anything according to you right?

Just because they didn't end up suiciding doesn't mean they weren't still suffering their entire lives.

it also doesnt mean they were, possible they found a way to cope and live a life worth living

"don't twist my words to make me look like a psycho." Yeah, they strawmanned you lol to make your argument seem ridiculous when it's not. All you're saying is that people who have carefully resolved to cbt can take advantage of impulsiveness to do what they have carefully decided is in their best interest

thats not how impulsive suicides happen. The reason why its impulsive is because you arent in the right state of mind to make such a decision. There is nothing good about doing ctb impulsively, especailyl when it comes to teenagers

 

[ijustwishtodie]

For me all this thread did is highlight the users who do lean more towards being pro life.

I don't see life as precious at all, there's over 8.1 billion people alive right now over populating the earth and nothing in the world will change if you, me or anyone else dies, it doesn't mean anything.
No one is special and I wouldn't waste my time trying to talk someone out of suicide on this forum, if they wanted actual help they would be on one of the thousands of websites or hotlines for help, not the one forum for sourcing methods and other suicidal people.

Do it now, do it in a few decades, never do it.. It's all the same. I couldn't give a fk when anyone dies or for what reason. I feel nothing when I read goodbye threads. They can't regret or feel anything once they're dead so what does it matter? No use feeling bad for them, they're dead, it's not like they are going to miss the life they didn't live out.

If this makes me a bad person then you know what, I don't give a fk about that either.

Touché!! It's really rare for somebody to find a forum like this to recover from their situation in ways other than death and, even if they do want to recover from their situation, they know that the recovery forum here exists. We all know ourselves better than other people know us. Aside from that, everything else that you said was just so spot on and beautiful. It mirrors my thoughts exactly but the way you articulated it is far better than how I would have articulated it

 

[joeschmo]

Example 1

So on another thread I posted a comment in response to a person who says their reason for wanting CTB is chronic pain after an accident.

In response to this comment, I said this



Any sane, reasonable person would probably agree that there's nothing wrong with this. It is not me denying him his right to die, nor is it saying he is wrong for wanting to die. I am simply concerned for his wellbeing and would love for this person to be healed and get better. That is all?

I have made posts like this before, and have been called a pro-lifer, but today I received another response and it really pissed me off. See below -



Thankfully, most of you a reasonable, and recognise that you can support someone's right to CTB and also want them to get better.

It is beyond belief that someone would have an issue with someone showing empathy and concern for someone's wellbeing, and consider it "pro-life" simply to ask if there's anything that can be done to get better?

Even the person who I was responding to with chronic pain showed positivity in response to what I said.

----

Example 2

Another example is there was a thread posted by a girl who was in the middle of a CTB attempt with SN which was obviously impulsive and poorly planned. Many of us, including me, showed concern and said there's no harm in backing out now and waiting for a better time.

And some people in the comments section I will not mention, literally started to flame us as if we have no place to show concern and challenge their decision. But we did so out of empathy for them, not because we don't respect their right to die, but because we don't want them to make impulsive decisions and also end up hurting themselves with terribly planned CTB attempts.

And do you know what? The girl in questions literally said "I have regrets" while her CTB attempt was happening, strengthening the absolute necessity to challenge people who are suicidal on their mental clarity and planning.

Do some of you really want to encourage Suicide? Do you really feel good when someone impulsively decides to CTB? Surely you want their CTB to be well planned and thought out?

You can say all I want that "how do you know it wasn't well though out", "stop making assumptions". It was not based on assumptions, the evidence was all well documented in what they posted.

---------

The main reason many people attempt suicide is not because they love or want death, but it's because they are suffering and want to end that suffering. It is absolutely reasonable to assume that if you took away people's problems that they'd no longer want to CTB, as evidenced by the amount of threads on this board where people give their reasons for wanting CTB, and it's not because they having some death fetish or even a lack of interest in a good life, but because they are having shitty lives because of mental or physical illness, or poor life circumstances, among other things.

Plenty of research shows that a massive percentage of people who survive a suicide attempt are glad that they failed eventually when things get better. So it is very important that we make sure that people have thought things through.

What I want is -

1) If I could give happiness to all of you, I would. And if I could give it to you, and take away your problems, most of you would not want to CTB anymore. It is of the upmost importance, if we really want to consider ourselves on the right side of morality compared to "pro-lifers", that we make sure people are not attempting impulsively without thinking things through, and also that their plans are well made and they're not just going to end up hurting themselves in a terrible failed attempt.

BUT....

2) I respect 100% your right to die if you want. It's your body, your life. Many of you have perfectly rational reasons to die, but some of you can be helped. To all of you who say "mind your own business", realise many people share their reasons for wanting to CTB on here, so you cannot share your reasons and opinions on the subject and expect to be exempt from all criticism or differing opinions.

3) Another thing I want is for attempts to help or save others to not be viewed as "pro-life" evil. Most of us on here are not psychopaths! We care for others, and what most of us want for people besides their right to make their own decisions is a lack of suffering and also positive intentions like happiness.

YOU CAN SUPPORT PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO DIE WHILST ALSO WANTING TO HELP THEM GET BETTER! THE TWO THINGS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE!!!

3b) STOP accusing well intentioned people who are just trying to help others as "pro-lifers".

There are some suicides on here that I don't try to prevent or interfere with, nor do I question further if their reasons seem absolutely solid. I enquire as to why they are doing it and what they've tried, which most people are more than happy to share, despite them having the right to say nothing.

But some people either A) Have clearly not thought through their decision, and are doing it impulsively, and inference may be necessary to prevent a terrible failed attempt or awful death. You do not have to be a "pro-lifer" to want to reduce suffering. B) Have issues that seem a lot more fixable that others, and therefore giving these people life changing advice that could work may lead to a better life, which is is what most of us would have preferred.

--------------------------------

Why this conversation is also important?

Because this is NOT a pro-suicide forum, it is a pro-choice forum. If we go around accusing those who want to help others as "pro-lifers", as if any attempt to save a person is a bad thing, then we are a pro-suicide forum, and should be shut down.

If we're going to in anyway defend ourselves we need to be a pro-choice forum that merely supports people's right to choose we're not here to encourage anyone to kill themselves, nor promote a negative view on improving ones life through getting help.

--------

Final thoughts.

TL;DR - If there's anything I want you to take from this is that trying to help others, which may include convincing someone not to die because there's maybe a way forward, IS NOT A BAD THING.

There's a difference between trying to help others and denying them their rights completely.

Interfering by giving advice, questioning people or showing concern =/= Holding someone hostage and stopping them from making their own decisions.

And such ppl intentionally use "pro-life" as a derogatory label because in the field of abortion pro-life ppl are looked down upon. Of course it makes zero sense to use that label here since we are not fetuses or embryos, but it is effective because of how it is linked to the abortion topic… YOU don't want to be labeled "pro-life" do you now? So you better stop showing care for anyone who might subconsciously be seeking help on a forum where others can relate to them.

Anyways, my 2 cents on this topic since I experienced this judgmental attitude from the beginning.

 

[Lifeaffirmingchoice]

I have no idea what all the circumstances are of every person who comes here. All I know is that is that they have specifically come to a site searching for methods of suicide vs. all the many sites out there for "recovery" from suicidal ideation. That itself is good evidence that they are likely seeking support to ctb, not to be talked out of it. If someone kills themself and would've had a better life if they had not, including myself, fortunately they won't be around to feel the regret, and neither will any of us in a hundred years.

I subscribe to what @ijustwishtodie said: "We all know ourselves better than other people know us." By landing here I can infer one thing and only one thing: that the person is intent on ctb and *not* being talked out of it.

 

[Whale_bones]

Sources dont mean anything, this is a meta analysis of tens of studies around the topic.

To some people yeah sure, not to others though. Some people are impulsive and decide to commit ctb when they are in a short suicidal crisis when they really need help and if they do get help they have a chance of recovering and livin a happy life. My point is: if you do not care about the circumstances than you should be okay with anyone ctbing at any time. Are you sure you want to go there?

But no, we shouldnt question anything according to you right?

" Sources don't mean anything" I'm really not sure what you mean by this. A source is the evidence for your claim. If a source is inaccurate, you could believe something completely false. The page isn't a meta analysis, though; it's like a fact/information page made by Harvard, and they link to a meta analysis in the first paragraph, then go on to mention many other statistics related to suicide, each with their own specific citation, which are listed at the bottom of the page.

If you only read sources that are 20 years old, your information won't be correct today. Just as a quick example, in the U.S. alone the overall suicide rate increased 30% between 2000 and 2020; then there's the culture, attitudes about mental illness, influence of technology and everything else that was significantly different over 20 years ago. This is why people in the health field, for example, try to use relatively recent studies. There's many aspect of a decades old study that can be inaccurate.

Have you read beyond the first paragraph of the page you linked? It's important, because they aren't summing up their entire point in that one paragraph. Yes, we both agree that for people who have a single, brief incident of depression or suicidality, they aren't likely to die by suicide.

You claimed that "having depression stay with you your whole life is a pretty rare occasion" and called suicide a cry for help. I brought up the rest of the information on this page because you were only focusing on the people that have that single instance of suicidality. For those not in that category, people who are already past the "single instance" stage, it's absolutely common for it to stay and not go away- often until death, as the statistics show.

Is your belief that the majority group that ends up on this website are people going through a solitary, brief episode that will result in them living a happy and fulfilling life if they get through it? If so, I don't know why you would support this website. Through my years here, that's not my experience with the majority of people.

I've already stated that we should use discretion and reply to each post individually, but you're going straight to extremes. By recognizing that adults of sound mind have the right to make their own choice about life or death, and that if they aren't asking for advice on a post they shouldn't be given unsolicited advice, according to you I'm okay with anyone CTBing, anytime. That's clearly not true, and your stance doesn't allow for treating people like individuals.

 

[DreamEnd]

" Sources don't mean anything" I'm really not sure what you mean by this. A source is the evidence for your claim. If a source is inaccurate, you could believe something completely false. The page isn't a meta analysis, though; it's like a fact/information page made by Harvard, and they link to a meta analysis in the first paragraph, then go on to mention many other statistics related to suicide, each with their own specific citation, which are listed at the bottom of the page.

If you only read sources that are 20 years old, your information won't be correct today. Just as a quick example, in the U.S. alone the overall suicide rate increased 30% between 2000 and 2020; then there's the culture, attitudes about mental illness, influence of technology and everything else that was significantly different over 20 years ago. This is why people in the health field, for example, try to use relatively recent studies. There's many aspect of a decades old study that can be inaccurate.

Have you read beyond the first paragraph of the page you linked? It's important, because they aren't summing up their entire point in that one paragraph. Yes, we both agree that for people who have a single, brief incident of depression or suicidality, they aren't likely to die by suicide.

You claimed that "having depression stay with you your whole life is a pretty rare occasion" and called suicide a cry for help. I brought up the rest of the information on this page because you were only focusing on the people that have that single instance of suicidality. For those not in that category, people who are already past the "single instance" stage, it's absolutely common for it to stay and not go away- often until death, as the statistics show.

Is your belief that the majority group that ends up on this website are people going through a solitary, brief episode that will result in them living a happy and fulfilling life if they get through it? If so, I don't know why you would support this website. Through my years here, that's not my experience with the majority of people.

I've already stated that we should use discretion and reply to each post individually, but you're going straight to extremes. By recognizing that adults of sound mind have the right to make their own choice about life or death, and that if they aren't asking for advice on a post they shouldn't be given unsolicited advice, according to you I'm okay with anyone CTBing, anytime. That's clearly not true, and your stance doesn't allow for treating people like individuals.

sound mind is doing a hell lot of work here. Who defines what sound mind is? You or are you gonna trust the person committing ctb?

No my stance is it's better to ask if they need help or sure about their attempt than ignoring it. Because if they have doubts they might seek help and if that doesn't work oh well at least they tried. I think this is the most harmless way of approaching someone thinking of ctbing which is what normally people do irl. If you express your suicidality they will likely tell you to get help which is a preferable outcome to death. And again, if that doesn't work at least they tried it

 

[Whale_bones]

sound mind is doing a hell lot of work here. Who defines what sound mind is? You or are you gonna trust the person committing ctb?

No my stance is it's better to ask if they need help or sure about their attempt than ignoring it. Because if they have doubts they might seek help and if that doesn't work oh well at least they tried. I think this is the most harmless way of approaching someone thinking of ctbing which is what normally people do irl. If you express your suicidality they will likely tell you to get help which is a preferable outcome to death. And again, if that doesn't work at least they tried it

So you don't even believe in the fundamentals of being pro choice. And you're here to ask people if they need help and if they're sure. It would have been a lot easier if you'd just said that in the first place.

I'm not evaluating anyone's soundness of mind, obviously. If you understood what it meant to be pro choice, you'd know that you don't have to try to judge that simply to have a conversation with someone while respecting their choice about their own life and death.

 

[DreamEnd]

So you don't even believe in the fundamentals of being pro choice. And you're here to ask people if they need help and if they're sure. It would have been a lot easier if you'd just said that in the first place.

I'm not evaluating anyone's soundness of mind, obviously. If you understood what it meant to be pro choice, you'd know that you don't have to try to judge that simply to have a conversation with someone while respecting their choice about their own life and death.

Actually in all my time being here I never asked that. I'm simply asking what is your problem with people asking others if they are sure of their decision?? I am pro choice but only when a person comes to this decision through a careful, logical and considerate thought not when it's done on impulse. Saying that anyone can die at absolutely any point in time and that you shouldn't do anything about it is wicked and evil. Because if we take this statement apart then if you see someone about to jump you won't even bother helping them because in your mind death is good and life is bad. In my opinion it is cruel because you see someone go through that and you do nothing about it. If our society worked that way no one would ever want to have kids.

This isn't about actively stopping people from ctb. It is finding ways for them to get better and if they don't get better they will always have that option

 

[Whale_bones]

Actually in all my time being here I never asked that. I'm simply asking what is your problem with people asking others if they are sure of their decision?? I am pro choice but only when a person comes to this decision through a careful, logical and considerate thought not when it's done on impulse. Saying that anyone can die at absolutely any point in time and that you shouldn't do anything about it is wicked and evil. Because if we take this statement apart then if you see someone about to jump you won't even bother helping them because in your mind death is good and life is bad. In my opinion it is cruel because you see someone go through that and you do nothing about it. If our society worked that way no one would ever want to have kids.

This isn't about actively stopping people from ctb. It is finding ways for them to get better and if they don't get better they will always have that option

You're going to extremes again, making claims like " saying anybody can die at absolutely any point in time" which I've never said nor inferred, and when I previously went in to detail about specific points, you ignored most of the post and only responded to my last couple sentences. So I think this conversation has gone as far as it can go. I've laid out my beliefs and where I stand. I wish you a good day, night or whatever time it is where you are.

 

[DreamEnd]

You're going to extremes again, making claims like " saying anybody can die at absolutely any point in time" which I've never said nor inferred, and when I previously went in to detail about specific points, you ignored most of the post and only responded to my last couple sentences. So I think this conversation has gone as far as it can go. I've laid out my beliefs and where I stand. I wish you a good day, night or whatever time it is where you are.

You too. Thanks

 

[4am]

And such ppl intentionally use "pro-life" as a derogatory label because in the field of abortion pro-life ppl are looked down upon. Of course it makes zero sense to use that label here since we are not fetuses or embryos, but it is effective because of how it is linked to the abortion topic… YOU don't want to be labeled "pro-life" do you now? So you better stop showing care for anyone who might subconsciously be seeking help on a forum where others can relate to them.

Anyways, my 2 cents on this topic since I experienced this judgmental attitude from the beginning.

true, pro-suffering label suits both of them best

 

[Ambivalent1]

It's always funny when basic users make posts well above their station trying to influence our paradigm. No paradigm shift here!

 

[Lifeaffirmingchoice]

So you don't even believe in the fundamentals of being pro choice. And you're here to ask people if they need help and if they're sure. It would have been a lot easier if you'd just said that in the first place.

I'm not evaluating anyone's soundness of mind, obviously. If you understood what it meant to be pro choice, you'd know that you don't have to try to judge that simply to have a conversation with someone while respecting their choice about their own life and death.

Exactly. Everything @DreamEnd has said indicates they are fundamentally not pro choice and do not believe in people's right to agency over the circumstances of their death. That's the heart of it. And then @DreamEnd strawmans everyone who provides valid arguments to paint them as heartless "pro-death cultists." That's not arguing in good faith.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

I don't think it stems from a pro-life mindset. I think what happens is user X joins the site, they start reading SN threads. They see some where people say they're in pain. They get nervous that the method will be painful. They are anxious because they want to CTB but are terrified of being in pain and feel trapped in life. User Y then makes a post asking about SN. User X, despite not having tried it or being very knowledgeable, responds that it is painful from what others have said, because user X is anxious, worried, and doesn't want themselves or others to die in pain. User Y takes what user X said as fact without considering other aspects and the goes on to post to other threads that SN is painful. None of it stems from pro-life, it stems from struggling, misinformed people not considering the implications of what they say. It happens in any major group, but unfortunately on a site like this misinformation can be outright dangerous. It is a difficult thing to moderate without taking away the free speech discussion aspect of a forum. It's also difficult to manage because if a user is convinced something, and a user with personal experience and extensive knowledge says "No XYZ does not to blah blah blah", the user will seek out confirmation bias and refuse to believe otherwise. I don't believe it comes from a pro-life issue though.


To clarify: I have survived SN but this is not meant to turn into a discourse on whether SN is painful or not. It was simply the first example in my head. It isn't a discussion on SN and pain, it is an example of how misinformation is spread and nothing more.

Can i just say how accurate this is with regard to a lot of what I've seen take place here time and time again.

 

[DreamEnd]

Exactly. Everything @DreamEnd has said indicates they are fundamentally not pro choice and do not believe in people's right to agency over the circumstances of their death. That's the heart of it. And then @DreamEnd strawmans everyone who provides valid arguments to paint them as heartless "pro-death cultists." That's not arguing in good faith.

Why would I argue in good faith with people who don't think I'm pro choice? I had this argument long time ago so sure we can play it. If you see a teenager about to jump will you stop them? Because interfering in their attempt is not pro choice. What about people under alcohol intoxication or drug induced psychosis? Will you stop them if you didn't know they had it? Unless you are willing to bite a bullet and say everyone should be able to die under any circumstances at any point then your position is actually the position I hold, but it looks like you follow the former, that is, everyone has the right to die at will, including teenagers and children who are suicidal. This is why I said it's evil and cruel. You aren't offering them help they desperately need, you are just letting them die. And if you think life is bad objectively and death is preferable in all circumstances then you are pro death.

 

[lostinwoe]

You're going to extremes again, making claims like " saying anybody can die at absolutely any point in time" which I've never said nor inferred, and when I previously went in to detail about specific points, you ignored most of the post and only responded to my last couple sentences. So I think this conversation has gone as far as it can go. I've laid out my beliefs and where I stand. I wish you a good day, night or whatever time it is where you are.

twisting words is how they manipulate readers into believing everything they say, tried to do the same to me

Why would I argue in good faith with people who don't think I'm pro choice? I had this argument long time ago so sure we can play it. If you see a teenager about to jump will you stop them? Because interfering in their attempt is not pro choice. What about people under alcohol intoxication or drug induced psychosis? Will you stop them if you didn't know they had it? Unless you are willing to bite a bullet and say everyone should be able to die under any circumstances at any point then your position is actually the position I hold, but it looks like you follow the former, that is, everyone has the right to die at will, including teenagers and children who are suicidal. This is why I said it's evil and cruel. You aren't offering them help they desperately need, you are just letting them die. And if you think life is bad objectively and death is preferable in all circumstances then you are pro death.

I think you're going off track again this entire argument stems from the fact that we are talking about people on this site. no one in the middle of a drug induced psychosis is going to find this site make an account (that has it get accepted so there's a waiting time) choose a method and post a goodbye thread. there's a whole lot of thinking and consideration that goes into all of that so obviously it wouldn't be impulsive. all of your arguments are specifically targeted to make the other person look like a horrible person.

 

[DreamEnd]

twisting words is how they manipulate readers into believing everything they say, tried to do the same to me

i just took the argument and made an analogy to show that what you are arguing for doesnt make sense

I think you're going off track again this entire argument stems from the fact that we are talking about people on this site. no one in the middle of a drug induced psychosis is going to find this site make an account (that has it get accepted so there's a waiting time) choose a method and post a goodbye thread.

Why be so specific?? there are lurkers who ctb. People who make an acct and make a first post goodbye thread and ctb. And people can register on the site, discover methods and then get into a drug induced psychosis

there's a whole lot of thinking and consideration that goes into all of that so obviously it wouldn't be impulsive.

You cant generalize like that at all, everyones situation is different, some people dont think at all about that decision

all of your arguments are specifically targeted to make the other person look like a horrible person.

All of my arguments are specifically targeting the fact that if we take your stance to the extreme then it becomes wicked and cruel. If you assume everyone here has suffered for a long time(which may not be the case) and thought about the ctb carefully (which may not be the case) then we could entertain the argument that its better not to interfere at all; however, this isnt the case for everyone and people should be able to ask if the person is sure of the decision they are making.

 

[lostinwoe]

i just took the argument and made an analogy to show that what you are arguing for doesnt make sense

Why be so specific?? there are lurkers who ctb. People who make an acct and make a first post goodbye thread and ctb. And people can register on the site, discover methods and then get into a drug induced psychosis

You cant generalize like that at all, everyones situation is different, some people dont think at all about that decision

All of my arguments are specifically targeting the fact that if we take your stance to the extreme then it becomes wicked and cruel. If you assume everyone here has suffered for a long time(which may not be the case) and thought about the ctb carefully (which may not be the case) then we could entertain the argument that its better not to interfere at all; however, this isnt the case for everyone and people should be able to ask if the person is sure of the decision they are making.

if they are lurkers then how are you going to offer them help? your entire point doesn't make sense? firstly, we were talking about not trying to give help to people who have accounts that didn't ask for it then you turned into a Irl analogy now lurkers?
if they found this site then went into a drug induced psychosis then they were suffering in the first place I've seen people on here who took all sorts of drugs before cbting to make it easier with going through with it

 

[DreamEnd]

if they are lurkers then how are you going to offer them help? your entire point doesn't make sense?

they lurk, then register to post a goodbye thread

firstly, we were talking about not trying to give help to people who have accounts that didn't ask for it then you turned into a Irl analogy now lurkers?

When i quoted you originally, nothing you said was specifically about accounts that didnt ask for it. It was never mentioned. I merely criticized your stance of never questioning anyones decision on SaSu which is in my opinion wrong.

if they found this site then went into a drug induced psychosis then they were suffering in the first place I've seen people on here who took some sort of drug before cbting to make it easier with going through with it

Thats nott what I meant. They could have a short suicidal crisis caused by an event that made them seek methods. And, if they are a habitual drug user then its likely they would cope using drugs which will lead to a psychosis which can lead to ctb.

 

[Linda]

It seems to me that there are situations in which the right thing to do is clearly to discourage someone from catching the bus. In other situations, the right thing is clearly to respect someone's choice and support them. I have done both on this site.
Sometimes, if I get the impression that a poster is not sure themselves what to do (even if they don't say so explicitly), I may try to buy some time, e.g. by explicitly suggesting that they wait for a while until it becomes clearer, or by some other means.
And there are also situations where I just don't know what is the right thing. Usually I don't comment at all then, or I may try to offer emotional or other support that is not directly relevant to ctb.
Everyone's situation is different. We can't adopt simplistic rules about how to respond. We have to think carefully about the needs of each poster, and then do our best to be helpful.

 

[pilotviolin]

i think theres a lot of misunderstanding and miscommunication on intent on this site when it comes to people giving others advice for their life, death and when they say goodbye. im not a mind reader but i think its best to talk to people more and get to know them or observe because theres many users when i first joined i thought had "evil" intent on either side of the spectrum but the more i observe the more i think most don't mean to wreak havoc or be malicious, they just have a different perspective. i doubt many users are here sitting behind the screen grinning thinking theyre gonna get to torture you by keeping you alive or seeing you so miserable you get to decline and die. i know this doesnt give a well thought out take on the other facets of this issue but i hope more people will try to not jump to conclusions that others are trying to ruin their lives or go on a crusade despite disagreeing or wanting a different kind of response.

 

[Linda]

i think theres a lot of misunderstanding and miscommunication on intent on this site when it comes to people giving others advice for their life, death and when they say goodbye. im not a mind reader but i think its best to talk to people more and get to know them or observe because theres many users when i first joined i thought had "evil" intent on either side of the spectrum but the more i observe the more i think most don't mean to wreak havoc or be malicious, they just have a different perspective. i doubt many users are here sitting behind the screen grinning thinking theyre gonna get to torture you by keeping you alive or seeing you so miserable you get to decline and die. i know this doesnt give a well thought out take on the other facets of this issue but i hope more people will try to not jump to conclusions that others are trying to ruin their lives or go on a crusade despite disagreeing or wanting a different kind of response.

I agree with you. The most frustrating thing about this site, and the reason I posted nothing at all for about 2 years, is the sheer difficulty of understanding someone else's situation when all you have are a few short posts. Sometimes you have only one short post. A few people's situations are clear and simple, and don't need much explanation, but most are not. I have learned to try to draw people out a little, and get them to explain more about themselves, so I have a better chance of commenting constructively. But it's still difficult.
The same problem exists in the other direction too. I have to try to make my own comments clear and comprehensive, to reduce the risk that they will be misunderstood, but I also also have to keep them short, because nobody is going to read a very long one. It's a difficult balancing act.
What it comes down to, I think, is that communication using only a keyboard and a screen has serious limitations. Face to face is much easier. You can say more, more easily, and you get valuable (and instantanous) feedback from body language too. Even a telephone is much easier than this site, since the tone of a voice tells you a lot.
However, we have to work with the tools we have. This site is a lot better than nothing.

 

[Whale_bones]

Unless you are willing to bite a bullet and say everyone should be able to die under any circumstances at any point then your position is actually the position I hold, but it looks like you follow the former, that is, everyone has the right to die at will, including teenagers and children who are suicidal.

It seems like you fundamentally misunderstand what it means to be pro choice. Being pro choice is being in support of the human right to make choices about one's own life and death. It's a right in the same way that people have the right to vote. When someone says they believe in the right to vote, do you say "But what if someone's in a drug induced psychosis?? What if they're running around naked on the street with a knife? You believe anyone, anywhere should be allowed to vote?!"

Do you see how nonsensical that sounds? Granting human rights in no way means that you would support every specific situation. It means the right is the baseline, it's what you START with, and only if you're given evidence and reasons to react differently do you start doing so. Your view is the other way around; you assume that people's suffering is brief and fixable, assume that they haven't made a rational and well thought out decision. They have to EARN their right to self determination, by explaining and convincing you of why they're worthy.

That's exactly what the pro life view espouses; that choices about your own death aren't a right, and will only be earned by meeting the exact bar that person has set. And even then, instead of respecting you, they pity you and have a "poor you" demeaning attitude. They never view you as an intelligent, logical person who has made a carefully thought out choice that's the best for their own circumstances.

Instead of immediately going to these extremes, every time you think of what it means to be pro choice, think of the right to vote, or the right to do anything else. How do you think of *those* rights?