Discussion Important - There a big issue here with people accusing others of being "pro-life" far too much.

[Whale_bones]

Unless you are willing to bite a bullet and say everyone should be able to die under any circumstances at any point then your position is actually the position I hold, but it looks like you follow the former, that is, everyone has the right to die at will, including teenagers and children who are suicidal.

It seems like you fundamentally misunderstand what it means to be pro choice. Being pro choice is being in support of the human right to make choices about one's own life and death. It's a right in the same way that people have the right to vote. When someone says they believe in the right to vote, do you say "But what if someone's in a drug induced psychosis?? What if they're running around naked on the street with a knife? You believe anyone, anywhere should be allowed to vote?!"

Do you see how nonsensical that sounds? Granting human rights in no way means that you would support every specific situation. It means the right is the baseline, it's what you START with, and only if you're given evidence and reasons to react differently do you start doing so. Your view is the other way around; you assume that people's suffering is brief and fixable, assume that they haven't made a rational and well thought out decision. They have to EARN their right to self determination, by explaining and convincing you of why they're worthy.

That's exactly what the pro life view espouses; that choices about your own death aren't a right, and will only be earned by meeting the exact bar that person has set. And even then, instead of respecting you, they pity you and have a "poor you" demeaning attitude. They never view you as an intelligent, logical person who has made a carefully thought out choice that's the best for their own circumstances.

Instead of immediately going to these extremes, every time you think of what it means to be pro choice, think of the right to vote, or the right to do anything else. How do you think of *those* rights?

 

[DreamEnd]

It seems like you fundamentally misunderstand what it means to be pro choice. Being pro choice is being in support of the human right to make choices about one's own life and death. It's a right in the same way that people have the right to vote. When someone says they believe in the right to vote, do you say "But what if someone's in a drug induced psychosis?? What if they're running around naked on the street with a knife? You believe anyone, anywhere should be allowed to vote?!"

Do you see how nonsensical that sounds? Granting human rights in no way means that you would support every specific situation. It means the right is the baseline, it's what you START with, and only if you're given evidence and reasons to react differently do you start doing so. Your view is the other way around; you assume that people's suffering is brief and fixable, assume that they haven't made a rational and well thought out decision. They have to EARN their right to self determination, by explaining and convincing you of why they're worthy.

That's exactly what the pro life view espouses; that choices about your own death aren't a right, and will only be earned by meeting the exact bar that person has set. And even then, instead of respecting you, they pity you and have a "poor you" demeaning attitude. They never view you as an intelligent, logical person who has made a carefully thought out choice that's the best for their own circumstances.

Instead of immediately going to these extremes, every time you think of what it means to be pro choice, think of the right to vote, or the right to do anything else. How do you think of *those* rights?

Yes because well, the conversation started about people complaining of other people asking question of whether the person is sure of their decision and have thought of them thoroughly. This isn't voting, it doesn't have the same ramifications as voting. And even then, not everyone is allowed to vote; but if you are going to grant everyone the right to self determination, then what I said about teenagers and people under psychosis should be true according to you. So I'm gonna ask this again. If everyone gets the right to die, which I agree with, does that mean to you that there shouldn't be any interference or questioning about their decision from the outsiders?

 

[Esokabat]

You mean the funeralcry type? This is what I do: I block them. Block funeralcry right now, you will find it will ease SO SO SO much stress.

How I agree with you. I came to the same conclusion.
I am relatively new here but I had the impression that this forum is dominated by people that believe that being born is a sin, life is pointless, your parents committed a crime by having you, humanity should not procreate, and you should die regardless whether you are suffering or not because life is meaningless and non-existence is the only worthy thing that one could aim for. Maybe these people on this forum are not the majority, maybe it just seems like it, as they enter all kinds of threads, trying to spread their death religion, pushing their opinion on everyone with a loud and pride voice as anyone that is not on board is just brainless and not seeing "reality". I think we should respect people on this forum that want to CTB not because of death religion but simply because of quality of life. For example a cancer patient might want to CTB but if all of a sudden they have a miracolous recovery, they might decide not to CTB. I understand that there are not many forums for these death religion people to convey their ideology so this forum serves use for them. Even though most of them want everyone else to CTB and yet many of them have been here for years. Which is their business. But I think occasionally they should be reminded that many of us here to CTB without subscribing to death religion beliefs. And also the fact that this site is pro-choice. Not pro-death. (The reason I call it a "religion" is not due to disrespect, is due to the unquestionable, unshakable devotion and conviction they subscribe to their belief system). Due to this dominance on this site, I will try to stick to method discussions only in order to avoid these people as much as possible. But yes, if someone recovers from cancer or mental illness, I will celebrate with them and I will not tell them that you should CTB anyway as humanity's existence and existence itself is a big cosmic error.

 

[neverLoved]

Honestly I have been lurking here for a good amount of time until yesterday that I decided to create an account. One thing which I did notice is that there are indeed some people here who are extremely 'pro death'. Meanwhile like you mentioned they have old accounts and been here for a while.

I really believe that there are some disgusting people on here who love to tell others what to do. There are some with really bad intentions.

 

[Callie Arcale]

I have a knee-jerk reaction to anything pro-life. This whole "oh I feel sorry for you, but life is still worth living" bullshit makes me sick to my stomach. As soon as I catch a wiff of a pro-lifer I avoid them like the plague. In the past I have been burned by a pro-lifer on the forum, it wasn't fun.

Pro-choice is the only stance I respect and believe in.

I really believe that there are some disgusting people on here who love to tell others what to do. There are some with really bad intentions.

This is unfortunately correct.

 

[anonymousbookreader]

Upon reading the discourse in the comments, reading this post, and the thread of the second example. It seems like some people under this thread don't quite even know what they want for themselves but want to talk about what is and isn't okay to say to others.

Some of you claiming you're not pro life, do share similar ideas as pro-lifers. Some of you claiming you're not pro death extremists, are definitely pro-death extremists. Key word is SOME. we don't all fit into the same category. When looking at all that I mentioned earlier, suicidality is like a spectrum and we do not all fall on the same area. Just like anything else in life that isn't one way and one way only.

I see nothing wrong with OP asking if theres anything that can be done medically. Nobody truly wants people to die they want people to have livable lives they want to participate in.

It is sad when someone dies of suicide but it's what they want. That's the point of being pro-choice. Acknowledging the seriousness and the sadness of suicide whilst also wishing the best for someone in the actions they want to take, is possible. Supporting someone's decision doesn't mean you're raving about their death.

I find myself seeing the points of everybody involved. I think we're all too involved in other peoples deaths and that's the real problem. Everybody wants to point fingers at who's wrong when really, we need to focus on the person passing if we're gonna interact with a good-bye post.

I genuinely do think one thing we should all agree on is don't go on those posts to argue with people of opposing views, it's disgraceful. That goes for everybody, not just extremists of either sides.

There's nothing wrong with letting other people know they don't have to rush themselves. Some people are overlooking the fact that sometimes treatment methods are literally unknown to the person passing. When we ask if there's anything that can be done, it isn't to deter, it is to put things into perspective. There's been times when people suggest things to others and they are absolutely willing to try despite wanting to die.

I know that I want to die no matter what. I've tried all I can and for anything left back, I don't care. I don't have the fight, Im worn out and don't have the energy or the will, my body's even attacking itself at this point. But I have NEVER been upset at someone asking if I've tried all I can. I may be tired of the question but it is VERY CLEAR when people have the intent to force life down your throat, vs people who have your best interest at heart and are concerned.

The real problem is everybody wants to view other peoples deaths the way they view their own. Stop it.

Edit: everybody isn't capable of being 100% ready to ctb. Some people have certain fears that can't push them to 100% readiness but that doesn't mean they can't choose what they want. It doesn't make them wanting to ctb any less valid. Nobody on here should be trying to save anybody. That is what the rest of the world is for. What we are here to do is offer support/receive support if needed. I'm not saving anybody and I have no problem being a bystander. However if you're doing something impulsively and it's clearly not going to work, will likely harm you to the point you couldn't even reattempt if you wanted to. Then I have no problem letting someone know they should try later if they actually want success. What's the point of encouraging harm during a suicide attempt that won't succeed? If you want to self harm in the moment don't attempt suicide they are very different and ones permanent.

 

[homesoon.]

YOU CAN SUPPORT PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO DIE WHILST ALSO WANTING TO HELP THEM GET BETTER! THE TWO THINGS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE!!!

I think a lot of people who come here and then complain about sasu becoming "too mainstream," pretty much not being "pro-suicide" enough, or not having what they were looking for at all (e.g., practically exact instructions on how to cbt and where to get the method in easy-bake steps), tend to forget that this website is for people to openly discuss their feelings relating to depression and suicide, provide information relating to suicide (both good and bad), and IS NOT TO ENCOURAGE ANYONE TO ACTUALLY CBT OR SELF-HARM.

As op posted, you can respect the fact that someone is suicidal while also trying to help them through being suicidal. Similarly, if I posted that I was wanting to cbt or was about to do so, I wouldn't be surprised if someone responded empathetically because we are all human beings who simply recognize what it feels like to experience psych-ache without also solely condoning cbt AND not suppressing to choice/right to do so at the same time.

Welcome to my TED Talk.

 

[anonymousbookreader]

I think a lot of people who come here and then complain about sasu becoming "too mainstream," pretty much not being "pro-suicide" enough, or not having what they were looking for at all (e.g., practically exact instructions on how to cbt and where to get the method in easy-bake steps), tend to forget that this website is for people to openly discuss their feelings relating to depression and suicide, provide information relating to suicide (both good and bad), and IS NOT TO ENCOURAGE ANYONE TO ACTUALLY CBT OR SELF-HARM.

As op posted, you can respect the fact that someone is suicidal while also trying to help them through being suicidal. Similarly, if I posted that I was wanting to cbt or was about to do so, I wouldn't be surprised if someone responded empathetically because we are all human beings who simply recognize what it feels like to experience psych-ache without also solely condoning cbt AND not suppressing to choice/right to do so at the same time.

Welcome to my TED Talk.

I completely agree. I think some people are looking for a death eco chamber instead of an expression site and that's the real issue. Instead of leaving they want to berate others for using the site the way they do.

 

[Raindancer]

I can only add to this from my perspective. I think like many I lurked for quite awhile before joining. During this time I felt that the "pro death, life is pointless" were the majority. When I began to post it was very sporadic and careful as I didn't want to offend or go against the forum rules. This is the time I began to notice two things. One there were a lot more people who seemed pro choice, but also admitted they could never let a friend or family commit CTB without trying to stop and offer help, up to not calling police or having them be admitted to a hospital. The second thing I noticed was people stating things as fact, that are opinion. Since we have a wide variety of people and beliefs, I would try to preface what I said, with "this is my opinion" or "I personally believe X"

Over time, I began to personally feel I had a decent vibe for those not sure about what they were doing, or were open to me asking questions about other options. And those whose minds were not only made up, but were not open to suggestions and only wanted support of their decision to CTB. For those I cannot get a read on, I usually will ask questions to try and get a better feel.

As many say, ctbing is final. Not only would I want some push back, it's nice to know people care enough to want to make sure this is your time. As the OP stated, most would want to live if the things that were causing them to want to CTB were resolved. That question is almost asked every or every other week and just read the responses.

Lastly I have only seen one time where someone was told the meaningless platitudes of "if you just give it a chance it will get better" and they were reported immediately Other than that I have only seen caring questions of concern or advice if the method could end really badly. Yet accusations of pro lifers persist.