I'm convinced that when I die I'm just going to come back here.

[Meditation guide]

It's worse than reincarnation. You come back into the exact same world as you and end up having all of the exact same thoughts and doing all of the exact same things. Repeatedly. Over and over and over and over and over... ad infinitum. There would be no escape, not even in death.

That's not that far from the truth. And in between lives, you can "attach" to someone who is alive and sort of go along for the ride, since you don't know what else to do with yourself.

Groundhog Day the movie was how it actually is, although with different settings and faces.

 

[Ghost2211]

I don't think it's even spiritual reincarnation ala Hinduism or anything. I firmly believe it's just universal recurrence. I think the universe is a closed system that repeats endlessly.

Only one way to find out, lol.

I see. That would be amusing in a twisted way. Also, for everything to Happen again time would have to be a fixed concept, and all our choice predetermined, so no free will. Otherwise things couldn't repeat. Well, unless you mean only the brith and death of the universe itself is a constant cycles in which case humans may never even exist in another cycle.

 

[ExitStageLeft]

You come back into the exact same world as you and end up having all of the exact same thoughts and doing all of the exact same things. Repeatedly. Over and over and over and over and over... ad infinitum. There would be no escape, not even in death.

I don't think this is necessarily the case. If the universe oscillates an infinite number of times, there will be versions of you that are born into nearly identical histories but are not necessarily restricted to making the same choices as the past.

 

[Wayfaerer]

I don't think this is necessarily the case. If the universe oscillates an infinite number of times, there will be versions of you that are born into nearly identical histories but are not necessarily restricted to making the same choices as the past.

That's what I want to believe however, a thought came to mind recently. Consider how extremely unlikely it is to exist at all. If just tiny, miniscules changes were made to the world, we probably wouldn't exist. So at the time of your conception the world would (I would think) have to be exactly or near-exactly identical to the one we live in now. If rigid determinism is true, then you would have to assume that with the exact same prior causes would lead to the exact same future events. If this is true, then the universe is really perverse.

Thermodynamics is an inherent part of reality. Thermodynamics applies to everything. Thermodynamics applies forever - it never stops applying. Entropy never "declines". Entropy can "decrease", but that applies only to a "system". Entropy of the universe is continuously increasing and can never decrease, or decline, and it cannot reverse.

Bro are you just trolling?

No, he's right. it is inevitable that within a closed system and an infinite amount of time, entropy will decrease. e.g. If you had dispersed gas molecules within a confined space like a box, then all of the molecules will cluster into a corner at some point, even if it takes a quadrillion plus years to do so. Given an infinite amount of time, the universe is bound to repeat itself but given that we cannot experience non-existence then subjectively from our perspective we will come back right after death with no pause or break. It would just be an endless loop forever and ever.

Even if entropy never decreases, we have to take into consideration quantum fluctuations at the planck level, a la another big bang with one eventually being perfectly identical to our own.

Isn't it odd that we exist in the first place? Where did the big bang come from? If given an infinite amount of time, we are brought in suddenly and then disappear for the rest of eternity?

 

[RedDEE]

This is a mangling of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Once maximum entropy is achieved, the universe will enter a low-entropic state of near equilibrium. This is the state in which Boltmann brains, universes, etc. become plausible.

Once maximum entropy is achieved, the universe will not enter a low entropic state of near equilibrium - it will enter a state of maximum entropy and total equilibrium. For Boltzmann brains or Boltzmann universes to be created in a state of thermodynamic equilibrium, it would require atomic fluctuations. Atomic fluctuations can not occur in a state of total thermodynamic equilibrium - and that's because when everything is in a state of total equilibrium, everything will be at rest. There cannot be fluctuations after the heat death of the universe - the definition of equilibrium itself means to be a state of rest and balance. If things are fluctuating, then it is not in a state of rest or balance.

 

[Wayfaerer]

I'm surprised that this topic has not been given a lot of attention from other atheists considering the logical soundness of the idea. The most common assumption is that we just vanish eternally. If only we were so lucky!

I'm at the point that I don't care what's coming next. Nothingness, reincarnation, heaven or hell. I don't care. I just want to end THIS life.

If eternal return is true, then you will only be restarting THIS life, not ending it. You'd live it all over the exact same way up to the point where you CTB. This idea is fucking horrifying but it's not baseless.

 

[ExitStageLeft]

Once maximum entropy is achieved, the universe will not enter a low entropic state of near equilibrium - it will enter a state of maximum entropy and total equilibrium. For Boltzmann brains or Boltzmann universes to be created in a state of thermodynamic equilibrium, it would require atomic fluctuations. Atomic fluctuations can not occur in a state of total thermodynamic equilibrium - and that's because when everything is in a state of total equilibrium, everything will be at rest. There cannot be fluctuations after the heat death of the universe - the definition of equilibrium itself means to be a state of rest and balance. If things are fluctuating, then it is not in a state of rest or balance.

There are still quantum fluctuations which occur once the universe has achieved heat death.

 

[Wayfaerer]

There are still quantum fluctuations which occur once the universe has achieved heat death.

And that's not even taking into account of the multiverse theory which is gaining ground! Eternal oblivion may have been only a sweet lie after all.

 

[Mm80]

Im so unlucky that if reincarnation did exist, Id come back as myself.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Given sufficient time after the heat death of the universe, maximum entropy will have been reached. Once this occurs, there is a non-zero possibility that entropy will reverse.

But non-zero possibility can still be a very remote possibility (1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance is a non-zero possibility), based on infinitesimal odds that quantum field fluctuations once maximum entropy is reached will somehow reverse the process so that the exact same universe will reappear. But I guess given an infinite amount of time, anything that can happen will happen.

I am also not sure that poincare recurrence actually applies to nonlinear chaotic systems like the universe. There is nothing in mainstream physics which implies that poincare recurrence maps over the entire universe, as far as I'm aware.

 

[ExitStageLeft]

It wouldn't be the exact same universe, lol. You'd exist in it and have free will. That's the difference, I think. I am postulating an infinite succession of universes that are deterministic up until the point that the individual is born.

I also don't know that the universe is a chaotic system. It appears to be so.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

the scary thing is is that it's actually plausible.

I don't think it's correct to say it's plausible. Possible, yes, but not plausible.
I don't think it's something you need to worry about.
There are many more plausible hypotheses about the fate of the universe and the nature of reality.

It wouldn't be the exact same universe, lol. You'd exist in it and have free will. That's the difference, I think.

In that case, it's not that bad.
If you can make different decisions based on some kind of free will (which could itself be based on the quantum mechanical world), then at least it's not some kind of identical time loop hell.

 

[GonnaGoBye]

At least you can start fresh, as a new person with the previous you either sealed or you can't remember no matter what

 

[ExitStageLeft]

Right. That's what I'm positing - every time the individual recurs, they are born into a history identical to the history they inhabit now, but one in which they have freedom of choice within that history. So for me, the Holocaust,the Holodomor etc. will always be facts of history, as well as the exact circumstances of my birth and so on, but within that there will be an enormous range of possibilities. George H.W. Bush will always be President, etc.

 

[Wayfaerer]

It wouldn't be the exact same universe, lol. You'd exist in it and have free will. That's the difference, I think. I am postulating an infinite succession of universes that are deterministic up until the point that the individual is born.

I also don't know that the universe is a chaotic system. It appears to be so.

At least you can start fresh, as a new person with the previous you either sealed or you can't remember no matter what

How could one exist in a different universe? The chances of being born as you are in the sixtillions so any change to it would make your life impossible. And if it's the exact same, then why do you think you'd make different decisions even if you had free will? You wouldn't remember because you'd be born again into a new body, thus no prior memories in your brain.

 

[ExitStageLeft]

How could one exist in a different universe? The chances of being born as you are in the sixtillions so any change to it would make your life impossible. And if it's the exact same, then why do you think you'd make different decisions even if you had free will? You wouldn't remember because you'd be born again into a new body, thus no prior memories in your brain.

Because my contention is that history is only predetermined to the point of your conception and no further. Eventually a universe will recur in which all the events leading to your conception occur identically, but which diverge from that point out.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Given an infinite amount of time, the universe is bound to repeat itself

But there would also be an infinite amount of different universes.
And there is no reason why we would have to keep experiencing the exact same universe from the exact same perspective.
If consciousness is some kind of 'non-physical' sub-quantum phenomenon, and beyond strictly deterministic laws, then in theory the exact same universe could keep repeating, but we could just keep experiencing it from the point of view of other people or animals or insects or whatever.

 

[Wayfaerer]

Because my contention is that history is only predetermined to the point of your conception and no further. Eventually a universe will recur in which all the events leading to your conception occur identically, but which diverge from that point out.

That would assume that we do not live in a rigidly deterministic universe. I'm not saying you're wrong but it would necessarily depend on that.

 

[ExitStageLeft]

My view is strictly materialistic. I think you can have your cake and eat it, too - an infinite variety of lives within a universe chronologically and historically identical to this one up to the moment of conception.

 

[Wayfaerer]

But there would also be an infinite amount of different universes.
And there is no reason why we would have to keep experiencing the exact same universe from the exact same perspective.
If consciousness is some kind of 'non-physical' sub-quantum phenomenon, and beyond strictly deterministic laws, then in theory the exact same universe could keep repeating, but we could just keep experiencing it from the point of view of other people or animals or insects or whatever.

This just begs the question: Why are "we" "us?" Why is "my" consciousness tied to "my" body? Consciousness appears to be specific to our individual brain and is merely a by-product of neurochemistry (epiphenominalism.) It would not be reasonable to assume that we would experience consciousness from another being's brain. Recreate our brain under the exact same conditions (not cloning or duplicating) and it would reasonably be assumed that you'd recreate our consciousness.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I think the universe is a closed system that repeats endlessly.

This is what you said originally.
Do you have any evidence from cosmology and physics?
Do any models of the universe actually point to this?
I know you mention poincare recurrence, and that it could possibly describe the universe as a dynamic system, but this is contentious.

Is this all more of a fear of yours based on an intuition, would you say?

 

[ExitStageLeft]

This just begs the question: Why are "we" "us?" Why is "my" consciousness tied to "my" body? Consciousness appears to be specific to our individual brain and is merely a by-product of neurochemistry (epiphenominalism.) It would not be reasonable to assume that we would experience consciousness from another being's brain. Recreate our brain under the exact same conditions (not cloning or duplicating) and it would reasonably be assumed that you'd recreate our consciousness.

Now say that I'm right about the possibility of differing returns. It follows that your sensory perception would exist again - visions, hearing, etc. - without continuity of consciousness. You never stop perceiving. But "your" identity changes.

This is what you said originally.
Do you have any evidence from cosmology and physics?
Do any models of the universe actually point to this?
I know you mention poincare recurrence, and that it could possibly describe the universe as a dynamic system, but this is contentious.

Is this all more of a fear of yours based on an intuition, would you say?

Mostly intuition, I admit. But it makes sense to me and I doubt it's falsifiable. It's going to give me the courage to CTB.

 

[RedDEE]

There are still quantum fluctuations which occur once the universe has achieved heat death.

No there's not. After the heat death of the universe, everything comes to complete rest in a state of perfect equilibrium. Equilibrium meaning complete rest and balance. There can be no fluctuations in a state of perfect rest/balance/equilibrium. A "fluctuation" is a disturbance. There will be no disturbances after the heat death of the universe.

When a human dies, for them there is eternal peace and eternal rest, with no disturbances to that peace and rest. The same thing goes for when EVERYTHING dies, including the universe. If a human dies and passes into eternal rest, why wouldn't the same thing happen to the universe? Doesn't the universe deserve eternal rest as much as a human does? Why would it be any different?

Listen, you can argue with me all day. But I know everything. When you die, you don't come back. That's a FACT. *mic drop*

 

[ExitStageLeft]

The law of entropy cannot be reversed.
The acceleration of the universe is expanding at such a rate that there's nothing that's going to reverse that.

Once the universe has reached its heat death phase, there will be all manner of quantum activities still occurring. There will be no more entropy once maximum entropy has been reached, and so nothing preventing new universes from forming.

 

[EmpressDean]

If I'm brought back I better get a better brain cuz I'm not going through this cycle twice man

 

[Ghost2211]

This wouldn't make sense with free will since all it would take is one choice for you to not exist in a given cycle. Your mom might have been tired and not gone out the day she met your dad and now you don't exist. Lack of free will would mean the meeting of your parents was a forced event that had to happen to create you in a given cycle.

Logically for us to exists in every universe cycle there cannot be free will, as there are way too many variables that lead to us coming into being. It would suck if we have to do this same thing over and over for eternity.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Consciousness appears to be specific to our individual brain and is merely a by-product of neurochemistry (epiphenominalism.)

This is an assumption, although it is tempting to see consciousness as an emergent property of brains, yes.
Consciousness could be an entirely independent (from biological brains) phenomenon, somehow embedded in the world of quantum mechanics or even deeper.
Brains could be biological devices which 'tune in' to this consciousness-frequency via microtubules or something. We just don't know yet, and maybe we'll never know.

The philosophical position known as 'new mysterianism' states that this problem of 'hard consciousness' cannot be solved, or at least is very unlikely to be solved, because of the paradoxical nature of the task--the object of inquiry is identical to that which is used to inquire into it, consciousness.

i.e. "The brain is a product of evolution, and just as animal brains have their limitations, we have ours. Our brains can't hold a hundred numbers in memory, can't visualize seven-dimensional space and perhaps can't intuitively grasp why neural information processing observed from the outside should give rise to subjective experience on the inside. This is where I place my bet, though I admit that the theory could be demolished when an unborn genius—a Darwin or Einstein of consciousness—comes up with a flabbergasting new idea that suddenly makes it all clear to us." Stephen pinker

 

[ExitStageLeft]

This wouldn't make sense with free will since all it would take is one choice for you to not exist in a given cycle. Your mom might have been tired and not gone out the day she met your dad and now you don't exist. Lack of free will would mean the meeting of your parents was a forced event that had to happen to create you in a given cycle.

And my contention is simply that the universe repeats enough times until you happen. It will repeat itself endlessly.

 

[heraclitus]

I personally do not believe in reincarnation or hell or heaven.

Death is final and irreversible. We came from the void. Into the void we go back again.

Millenia of human existence has happened before us today. I do not feel any connection to the past. I am just a biological growth from a sperm and egg meeting.

I came from the void, and back into the void I'll go.

I believe and hope this!

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Mostly intuition, I admit. But it makes sense to me and I doubt it's falsifiable. It's going to give me the courage to CTB.

Fair enough.
It is an interesting idea to discuss and explore.
I wish you the best in ctb and beyond...