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Meditation guide

Meditation guide

Always was, is, and always shall be.
Jun 22, 2020
6,082
time would have to be a fixed concept, and all our choice predetermined, so no free will.
It is and physicists have proven that. It's predetermined. No free will. Think of a loaf of bread and we only see one slice of it, even though the entire loaf is there. To us it looks like each year is new but it's always been there already set in stone what will happen.

Time is an illusion. Free will is an illusion. Neither one exists. Just this block of stuff, set in stone, already there. We are literally trapped in a big illusion. Think of a comic strip. It's already there and you are reading what the characters do in each frame.
 
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Ghost2211

Archangel
Jan 20, 2020
6,015
It is and physicists have proven that. It's predetermined. No free will. Think of a loaf of bread and we only see one slice of it, even though the entire loaf is there. To us it looks like each year is new but it's always been there already set in stone what will happen.

Time is an illusion. Free will is an illusion. Neither one exists. Just this block of stuff, set in stone, already there. We are literally trapped in a big illusion. Think of a comic strip. It's already there and you are reading what the characters do in each frame.

Time is a bit of an asshole for doing all this then. Especially if it's some form of god planned it all out.
 
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Deleted-User-0

Deleted-User-0

Experienced
Jan 30, 2020
217
And it's going to suck lol. Firmly convinced that I am just part of the universe, and that my qualia, my subjectivity, is part of it also, and that the universe oscillates.

If you "firmly convinced" and truly believe in your statement then the most sensible thing for you would be to leave this platform ASAP and get your life together since an escape is absurd according to your belief system
 
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esse_est_percipi

Enlightened
Jul 14, 2020
1,747
It is and physicists have proven that. It's predetermined. No free will.
Time is an illusion. Free will is an illusion. Neither one exists
I don't think physicists have proven this. But I can see what you're saying. You're right in the sense that time has been shown not to be a Newtonian absolute, like a line that the whole universe is moving across at the same time.

But time is not an 'illusion' in physics, it is part of the four-dimensional manifold of spacetime in relativity theory, and has definite properties and measurable effects (time dilation, curvature of time etc). What relativity did was to show that 'time' is not absolute across the universe as the Newtonian model posited, but depends on frames of reference and specifying sets of coordinates (making simultaneous events relative to an observer's reference frame). So 'past' and 'future' have no meaning for the universe as a whole, but depend on specifying a frame of reference.

It is also possible to distinguish the objective 'time' of physics, from the subjective experience of time. The philosopher Bergson had the concept of 'duration'. It is the qualitative flow of consciousness as it is experienced from the first person, and it cannot be measured or dissected like the space of physics, and neither can causation be applied to it. Within duration a subject experiences a feeling of freedom, since the causation and determinism of physics are absent (the flow of consciousness cannot be measured or quantified).

But this feeling of freedom is not an illusion, any more than consciousness itself can be an illusion (if you have a conscious experience, you cannot doubt that you are having that experience, though you can have doubts about what causes that experience). It is situated at a metaphysical level, and can only be grasped by intuition. However, the qualitative experience of time (and freedom) could be called a kind of subjective illusion if you contrast it with the measurable spacetime of physics and assume that only objective measurable things are ultimately real, so you'd be right in that sense. But it's not an illusion in the sense of being a mistake or of being deceived. The inner experience of time and freedom is just as valid and real as the objective spacetime of physics (going by Bergson's philosophy). I think Bergson even had an ongoing debate with Einstein about this, through letters and correspondence.

From another angle, although you are right that on the macro scale of relativity theory determinism seems true, this no longer applies in quantum mechanics. At the quantum level nothing is 'predetermined'; quantum systems are actually in indeterminate states and outcomes can only be predicted using probability theory, until observations/measurements are made (this is the copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics) which make wave functions collapse, and so the system then takes on definite properties (e.g. an electron can be precisely located or given a definite speed).

It would seem that free will could still somehow fit in at the quantum level, or at an even deeper level (string theory?), although no one knows exactly how yet, and it would still come up against the problem of randomness (it would seem that the will is no more free if its decisions are random than if its decision are predetermined).

But the claim 'free will is an illusion' is just an assertion, and not an established fact. Philosophers are still debating and writing papers on the problem of free will and even on the problem of time.

Sorry for the long post, and if I've said things that you already know or if I've misinterpreted what you were trying to say.
Just thought I'd use this as an excuse to talk about philosophy lol
 
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Wayfaerer

Wayfaerer

JFMSUF
Aug 21, 2019
1,938
If you "firmly convinced" and truly believe in your statement then the most sensible thing for you would be to leave this platform ASAP and get your life together since an escape is absurd according to your belief system

That's why I find it so terrifying because it's too late for me to do that. I'm trapped!
 
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esse_est_percipi

Enlightened
Jul 14, 2020
1,747
Isn't it odd that we exist in the first place? Where did the big bang come from? If given an infinite amount of time, we are brought in suddenly and then disappear for the rest of eternity?
Yes, it's all extremely strange, isn't it.
Something just doesn't add up about the whole thing.
If we die then disappear for the rest of eternity, why did we become conscious for that tiny period of time (compared to infinity or even the age of the universe) as that specific being (and not as any of the other trillions of beings throughout time we could have been born as)?
If we die but keep coming back, why do we keep coming back as this specific consciousness and not another?
The more you think about it the less sense any of it makes.
Something more must be going on behind the scenes.
 
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Joey

Joey

Enlightened
Jun 14, 2020
1,432
I believe in "The God of Spinoza".

Our universe and everything that has to do with like the cosmos and pure energy.

God has neither intelligence, feeling, nor will. He doesn't act according to purpose, but everything follows necessarily from his nature, according to law.
 
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esse_est_percipi

Enlightened
Jul 14, 2020
1,747
I believe in "The God of Spinoza".

Our universe and everything that has to do with like the cosmos and pure energy.

God has neither intelligence, feeling, nor will. He doesn't act according to purpose, but everything follows necessarily from his nature, according to law.
Is there an ultimate purpose to the whole thing according to you? Like, what's the end point?
 
schopenh

schopenh

Specialist
Oct 21, 2019
385
Convinced is a strong word. The most convincing hypothesis about the afterlife to me is that it's an entirely human-invented abstract concept and in that sense it basically has no meaning. Even then, that's just Occam's razor. To be convinced of anything else suggests there's some extraordinary evidence demonstrating its validity.

Edit: having read some of your comments, I see you're not talking about some meta-physical reincarnation
 
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Wayfaerer

Wayfaerer

JFMSUF
Aug 21, 2019
1,938
Convinced is a strong word. The most convincing hypothesis about the afterlife to me is that it's an entirely human-invented abstract concept and in that sense it basically has no meaning. Even then, that's just Occam's razor. To be convinced of anything else suggests there's some extraordinary evidence demonstrating its validity.

There are convincing arguments for eternal return unlike the rest. To call it an "afterlife" would be misleading as it really isn't, it's just a repeat of the same.
 
schopenh

schopenh

Specialist
Oct 21, 2019
385
There are convincing arguments for eternal return unlike the rest. To call it an "afterlife" would be misleading as it really isn't, it's just a repeat of the same.
Hey I just threw an edit in there I think before you would have seen it.
I'm going to read the entire thread before responding again.
 
S

Spitfire

Enlightened
Apr 26, 2020
1,273
This is a great and interesting conversation you are all having. I enjoyed reading it throughout my day today!

Thanks
 
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esse_est_percipi

Enlightened
Jul 14, 2020
1,747
There are convincing arguments for eternal return unlike the rest
What are those convincing arguments? Apart from assuming that poincare recurrence could apply to the universe, which is very debatable.
An eternal recurrence of the universe isn't a widely held view in cosmology as the evidence just isn't there.
Although the 'big bounce' theory hasn't been falsified yet..
Parallel universes/the multiverse is a more popular theory with more credibility (i.e. the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics which some world class physicists believe in).
 
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Wayfaerer

Wayfaerer

JFMSUF
Aug 21, 2019
1,938
What are those convincing arguments? Apart from assuming that poincare recurrence could apply to the universe, which is very debatable.
An eternal recurrence of the universe isn't a widely held view in cosmology as the evidence just isn't there.
Although the 'big bounce' theory hasn't been falsified yet..
Parallel universes/the multiverse is a more popular theory with more credibility (i.e. the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics).
It doesn't even have to be the big bounce theory. It could be multiverse theory or it could be from quantum fluctuations over an infinite timespan to produce another big bang identical to ours. We would only exist in the universe in which we were born so it's logical to assume that we would only experience the same from a subjective point of view.
 
ExitStageLeft

ExitStageLeft

Experienced
Mar 7, 2020
233
Convinced is a strong word. The most convincing hypothesis about the afterlife to me is that it's an entirely human-invented abstract concept and in that sense it basically has no meaning. Even then, that's just Occam's razor. To be convinced of anything else suggests there's some extraordinary evidence demonstrating its validity.

Edit: having read some of your comments, I see you're not talking about some meta-physical reincarnation

Right. I am referring strictly to a physiological phenomenon.

Moreover, I am convinced that it isn't even an eternal return of the identical- it follows logically that you will exist in universes identical in every respect to the moment of your conception that diverge from that point on.
 
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esse_est_percipi

Enlightened
Jul 14, 2020
1,747
It could be multiverse theory or it could be from quantum fluctuations over an infinite timespan to produce another big bang identical to ours.
Ah, ok, I get you.
Though let's assume quantum fluctuations over an infinite timespan. This would produce infinitely many different universes an infinite amount of times (the multiverse), as well as infinitely many occurrences of this universe (this is basically the infinite monkey/typewriters theorem).
On this picture I see no reason why we couldn't be born as other beings in other universes. In fact, if we are assuming infinity within a fluctuating quantum field, we would experience every universe from every point of view an infinite amount of times. Since infinity produces everything which isn't a logical contradiction.
it is inevitable that within a closed system and an infinite amount of time, entropy will decrease. e.g. If you had dispersed gas molecules within a confined space like a box, then all of the molecules will cluster into a corner at some point, even if it takes a quadrillion plus years to do so. Given an infinite amount of time, the universe is bound to repeat itself
Just wanted to back to this.
I agree about the closed system and entropy decreasing.
But the universe doesn't appear to be a closed system...the fact that it is expanding means that it isn't a closed system, so entropy can never decrease?
 
ExitStageLeft

ExitStageLeft

Experienced
Mar 7, 2020
233
It appears to be expanding now. But once it reaches heat death it will no longer expand- it will become a closed system.
 
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esse_est_percipi

Enlightened
Jul 14, 2020
1,747
I'm certainly no expert in physics or cosmology, so I don't know if it's true or not that the universe will become a closed system at heat death.
This is what I've read on the wikipedia article on 'heat death of the universe':

"If the topology of the universe is open or flat, or if dark energy is a positive cosmological constant (both of which are consistent with current data), the universe will continue expanding forever, and a heat death is expected to occur"

I know this is just wikipedia, so I'm not sure how accurate the statement "will continue expanding forever" is.
If the universe eventually becomes 'closed' at heat death, then it will become a sphere, since that is the only way it could become closed.
I just don't know how plausible this is.
I wish I knew more about physics.
 
InterstateFlowers

InterstateFlowers

Experienced
Apr 16, 2020
235
I don't know what the afterlife is going to be like but I'm excited to find out when I die.
 
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esse_est_percipi

Enlightened
Jul 14, 2020
1,747
that the universe is a forgiveness engine- that you'll always have the chance to "get it right"
not necessarily restricted to making the same choices as the past.
one in which they have freedom of choice within that history.
it follows logically that you will exist in universes identical in every respect to the moment of your conception that diverge from that point on.
I find your perspective quite interesting.
So do you believe in actual free will in the sense of being able to choose between real possibilities at any point in time?
Or is everything determined within each specific iteration of the universe, but whatever small differences there are are due very small differences in the initial quantum conditions at the big bang?
 
muffin222

muffin222

Enlightened
Mar 31, 2020
1,187
I suspect the same. It's what keeps me here for the most part. I'm terrified of coming back in another lifetime, especially in the future when climate change ravages the planet even further
 
Wayfaerer

Wayfaerer

JFMSUF
Aug 21, 2019
1,938
I suspect the same. It's what keeps me here for the most part. I'm terrified of coming back in another lifetime, especially in the future when climate change ravages the planet even further

You wouldn't be coming back as someone else, you'd be coming back as yourself. Infinitely.
 
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Homecoming

Wizard
Aug 14, 2020
643
We have freewill not to come back to this physical existence once we slough of this mortal coil (meatsuits). There are way... way more realm or existence outside this universe that human mind cannot even comprehend/imagine what it's like :ohhhh: :ohhhh::ohhhh:
 
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Nutmeg

Nutmeg

Maybe I ate all the marshmallows, maybe I didn't.
Aug 16, 2020
48
And it's going to suck lol. Firmly convinced that I am just part of the universe, and that my qualia, my subjectivity, is part of it also, and that the universe oscillates.
I think you need to learn more how the brain works.
 
Wayfaerer

Wayfaerer

JFMSUF
Aug 21, 2019
1,938
We have freewill not to come back to this physical existence once we slough of this mortal coil (meatsuits). There are way... way more realm or existence outside this universe that human mind cannot even comprehend/imagine what it's like :ohhhh: :ohhhh::ohhhh:

Okay but you have no rational reason to think that whatsoever.
I think you need to learn more how the brain works.

I think you do.
 
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PaYo

Experienced
Jul 28, 2018
225
You won't. You will be dead, there is no coming back.
there is no being dead. my friend was sitting in the bus station. then he thinks what it would feels like to get up, run and get hit deadly by a car. the he open his eyes. the girl next to him stood up and run into a car and died
if he done that he felt the future. therefore science is wrong. and science is telling us that death is the end. therefore death is not the end
Experiences on DMT and other psychedelics.
i took mushrooms and i know what is reality. reason is only the tool thats operate inside cultural norms that allow us to live together in society. forget about others and you will find outbthat there is other ways ot comprehending reality and these resons allow you to consider eternal life
 
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Deleted member 17949

Deleted member 17949

Visionary
May 9, 2020
2,238
Who cares though. If your memories vanish after death then all of this is irrelevant; you'll just be right back here saying the same thing eventually and you'll never know the difference. For all you know, you might have done this hundreds of times before. Ask yourself, if this is the case, are those past lives affecting you now? The answer is no, because your life in the context if what you're able to really process only exists between your birth and death and does not carry over into other lives.

This is how I approach the problem at least.
 
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PaYo

Experienced
Jul 28, 2018
225
Who cares though. If your memories vanish after death then all of this is irrelevant; you'll just be right back here saying the same thing eventually and you'll never know the difference. For all you know, you might have done this hundreds of times before. Ask yourself, if this is the case, are those past lives affecting you now? The answer is no, because your life in the context if what you're able to really process only exists between your birth and death and does not carry over into other lives.

This is how I approach the problem at least.
the beast anwer i have heard here
 
H

heraclitus

Student
May 22, 2020
120
Time is a bit of an asshole for doing all this then. Especially if it's some form of god planned it all out.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
 
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