I'm convinced that when I die I'm just going to come back here.

[Wayfaerer]

Experiences on DMT and other psychedelics.

You use chemistry to fuck with your brain signals and they go haywire. That is a material phenomenon. That is all it is! Nothing magical, nothing mysterious!

Who cares though. If your memories vanish after death then all of this is irrelevant; you'll just be right back here saying the same thing eventually and you'll never know the difference. For all you know, you might have done this hundreds of times before. Ask yourself, if this is the case, are those past lives affecting you now? The answer is no, because your life in the context if what you're able to really process only exists between your birth and death and does not carry over into other lives.

This is how I approach the problem at least.

Because I know that I am being eternally tortured and there is no hope of escape? Even if I don't remember each iteration, the fact that I know this now is tormenting! I've lived a nightmarish existence and I do not want to continue it otherwise I wouldn't be here! I want to be dead! or at the very least, live alternative versions of my life but otherwise I want to be dead! ETERNALLY!!

 

[DamnYourEyes]

My view is strictly materialistic. I think you can have your cake and eat it, too - an infinite variety of lives within a universe chronologically and historically identical to this one up to the moment of conception.

Not to be petty but (because this has always bothered me), how can one eat one's cake if one does not have it in the first place? Just wanted to ask...

 

[Wayfaerer]

Not to be petty but (because this has always bothered me), how can one eat one's cake if one does not have it in the first place? Just wanted to ask...

You know how cakes can be dressed up to look pretty? Well if you eat it, you no longer have it to look at. That's what that means. Not "have" as in "eat."

Back on topic, why does nobody give a fuck about this?! I have been told that death was eternal repeatedly for my entire life but nobody mentioned anything about this eternal return. The logic appears to be rock solid so why isn't this more common in culture? You could not have imagined the SHEER MISERY that could've been prevented having known this at, say, 15 instead of 27 (28 now.) I only find out about this at the worst possible time in my life! Why does no one talk about this? This essentially means that literally everything is luck based. Literally e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g!

 

[muffin222]

You wouldn't be coming back as someone else, you'd be coming back as yourself. Infinitely.

I know, but I don't believe we can re-incarnate into a life that's already existed, so to say. I believe my essence would re-incarnate, but into another physical form. Which, presumably, would mean I would reset as a baby, who would grow into an adult over several decades in the future. Hence the fears about climate change

 

[ExitStageLeft]

Eternal return makes the most sense as a matter of identity also: nothing cannot exist; non-existence doesn't exist (modal realism).

I am convinced that we come back as ourselves.

 

[bravotess]

Eternal return makes the most sense as a matter of identity also: nothing cannot exist; non-existence doesn't exist (modal realism).

I am convinced that we come back as ourselves.

Do we have free will?

 

[ExitStageLeft]

Do we have free will?

Here's an interesting postulation: the universe recurs infinitely - more times than a human can conceive. That means some recurrences will be identical up to the point of your conception, and you are the 'free radical' in the universe. From your perspective in such a universe you might be the only thing with free will in the universe.

Does this make sense? The universe might never recur identically - but there might be iterations in which your actions are the only changing events.

 

[bravotess]

That would mean that my actions don't effect others. Like at all. If someone one sees me driving down a one way street, they wouldn't get out of the way. Right?

Do you believe that we are destined to be exactly where we are, wearing the exact same clothes, and having the exact same dinner?

 

[ExitStageLeft]

That would mean that my actions don't effect others. Like at all. If someone one sees me driving down a one way street, they wouldn't get out of the way. Right?

Do you believe that we are destined to be exactly where we are, wearing the exact same clothes, and having the exact same dinner?

No see, that's what I'm saying.

If the universe is endlessly cyclical but not identical, it follows that every one of us will experience every possible versions of ourselves: every history that could possibly be "ours". Which means inevitably that I (or rather, my sensory inpute) will experience some versions of themselves that are not suicidal.

The eternal return of the different. Everything that can happen will.

 

[bravotess]

Ahhh. I see. So ctb just gets you to your next life faster. Hopefully you're happier in your next life.

 

[Wayfaerer]

I know, but I don't believe we can re-incarnate into a life that's already existed, so to say. I believe my essence would re-incarnate, but into another physical form. Which, presumably, would mean I would reset as a baby, who would grow into an adult over several decades in the future. Hence the fears about climate change

We are mechanical beings, we do not have "essence."

 

[OnlyBuilt4Linxs]

Imagine being a slave and constantly coming back as a slave for eternity. Holy shit that's evil and torture

 

[Wayfaerer]

Imagine being a slave and constantly coming back as a slave for eternity. Holy shit that's evil and torture

Consciousness is a cruel perversion of the universe. Now that I have learned this, I am unable to reconcile with it. It came at the worst possible time in my life. Now that I know how it works, I cannot unsee it. It makes so much sense! I can't even express my terror over this in person because then people would say "so that means you have to live to the fullest now!" I would if that were practical for me but I'm too far gone now. For fuck's sake, I can just imagine facepalming in frustration in real life. I wouldn't be able to encapsulate the despair without mentioning that CTB is a practical certainty for me.

Here's an interesting postulation: the universe recurs infinitely - more times than a human can conceive. That means some recurrences will be identical up to the point of your conception, and you are the 'free radical' in the universe. From your perspective in such a universe you might be the only thing with free will in the universe.

Does this make sense? The universe might never recur identically - but there might be iterations in which your actions are the only changing events.

I think the point that we disagree on is that of free will. Think about it, if EVERYTHING is the EXACT SAME from the beginning of the universe all the way up to your birth, that would require all human thoughts, feelings, and actions having been the EXACT SAME, so that would indicate no free will or odds extremely faaaaaaaaaar beyond human comprehension. To give you an example of how exact the prior conditions would have to be, If during sex, your mother or father even moved an inch differently or if your father's (hate to be graphic here but there's really no way around this) ejaculation occured even a split second before or after than in this universe cycle, you wouldn't exist. If human actions played out the exact same way before your birth like this, then free will is nonsensical. If there is no free will (which I think unfortunately), then it would play out the exact same after your birth just as before.

 

[PaYo]

You use chemistry to fuck with your brain signals and they go haywire. That is a material phenomenon. That is all it is! Nothing magical, nothing mysterious!


Because I know that I am being eternally tortured and there is no hope of escape? Even if I don't remember each iteration, the fact that I know this now is tormenting! I've lived a nightmarish existence and I do not want to continue it otherwise I wouldn't be here! I want to be dead! or at the very least, live alternative versions of my life but otherwise I want to be dead! ETERNALLY!!

yes it isnt anything mysterious. psychedelics just shut down esentials brrain function to perceive what you consider as a personality and learnd models of cultural behaviour. but it is like taking down the curtain of believes. it does nothing to world but it do something to you thats allows you to see the real world. its like quentum mechanica. on psychedelics you can see things like connectness between thing can not be connect. like quantum entaglement. it is contradictory to relativity as things you can perceive on psychedelics are contradictory to common sense. but scietist however they want to quantum mechanics be a mistake of mesure they can not tell that. they have to admit that world is bizzarre place and thats how it should be viewed.

fear id speaking thrue you. how do you know you didnt chose that life. or you just made a mistake. a definately think taht after death there is no pain. after death you will know who you are and you will forget this life. why not?
i have more radical view. i think i am the only one person in the world. you and people around me are me in the another incarnation. after death time does not exist and everybody lives in theyre own uviverses and this universes exists rigth to each other. in superposition. in state of being and dissapearing constatnly changing. and thisnis ultimate free will. taekwondo of changing the polarity of the energy around me.

We are mechanical beings, we do not have "essence."

bullshit

Consciousness is a cruel perversion of the universe. Now that I have learned this, I am unable to reconcile with it. It came at the worst possible time in my life. Now that I know how it works, I cannot unsee it. It makes so much sense! I can't even express my terror over this in person because then people would say "so that means you have to live to the fullest now!" I would if that were practical for me but I'm too far gone now. For fuck's sake, I can just imagine facepalming in frustration in real life. I wouldn't be able to encapsulate the despair without mentioning that CTB is a practical certainty for me.


I think the point that we disagree on is that of free will. Think about it, if EVERYTHING is the EXACT SAME from the beginning of the universe all the way up to your birth, that would require all human thoughts, feelings, and actions having been the EXACT SAME, so that would indicate no free will or odds extremely faaaaaaaaaar beyond human comprehension. To give you an example of how exact the prior conditions would have to be, If during sex, your mother or father even moved an inch differently or if your father's (hate to be graphic here but there's really no way around this) ejaculation occured even a split second before or after than in this universe cycle, you wouldn't exist. If human actions played out the exact same way before your birth like this, then free will is nonsensical. If there is no free will (which I think unfortunately), then it would play out the exact same after your birth just as before.

i dont know what do you mean by exact same. but this realities with you father moving difrently already exists. its called pararel universes. every planck lenght of time universe splits. thats how the scientists see it . howneverbi think every particle split over plack lenght of time and then interacts woth each other creating every universe.

 

[cyberlordsumit]

I'm surprised that this topic has not been given a lot of attention from other atheists considering the logical soundness of the idea. The most common assumption is that we just vanish eternally. If only we were so lucky!


If eternal return is true, then you will only be restarting THIS life, not ending it. You'd live it all over the exact same way up to the point where you CTB. This idea is fucking horrifying but it's not baseless.

doesn't it make our entire lives pointless and meaningless altogether? even better to make peace with it

 

[Wayfaerer]

doesn't it make our entire lives pointless and meaningless altogether? even better to make peace with it

I can't make peace with it, I'm too far gone.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

You use chemistry to fuck with your brain signals and they go haywire. That is a material phenomenon. That is all it is! Nothing magical, nothing mysterious!

I wouldn't write off the psychedelic experiences too quickly. It could be the case that psilocybin and dmt actually allow our brains to tune in to other frequencies of consciousness, like parallel dimensions. I mean, serotonin is the neuromodulating chemical which our brains normally use to build the everyday 'consensus world'. The world we experience normally is actually a 'model' in our brains built using serotonin and other neurochemicals after photons bounce off objects, enter our retinas, and the optic nerve carries the signals to the visual cortex, etc. Taking dmt reduces serotonin levels, elevates the naturally occurring (though low-level) dimethyltriptamine quantities present in the brain, and produces totally alien experiences of four-dimensional kaleidoscopic worlds.
Who's to say that the everyday serotonin consensus-world is the real one, and the dmt world is just a hallucination? In a way, everything you perceive is about chemistry and brain signals, the question is how is consciousness/perception connected to those?

Saying something is a material phenomenon just begs the question, since we don't know what the true nature of matter really is. We have models and theories, but we don't have access to the absolute truth. For all we know, if we go deep enough, matter might be reducible to some form of consciousness. Certainly the copenhagen interpretation or the von neumann-wigner interpretation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann–Wigner_interpretation of quantum mechanics would seem to suggest something along those lines.

I know that I am being eternally tortured and there is no hope of escape? Even if I don't remember each iteration, the fact that I know this now is tormenting! I've lived a nightmarish existence and I do not want to continue it otherwise I wouldn't be here! I want to be dead! or at the very least, live alternative versions of my life but otherwise I want to be dead! ETERNALLY!!

You seem to be needlessly torturing yourself with an idea that you cannot possibly know whether it's true or not.
There is no evidence for this eternal recurrence theory. It's just a thought experiment with no concrete scientific data to back it up.
Just try to let it go. Wed yourself to a more positive, less anguish-inducing idea.
You seem unhappy with the eternal recurrence idea yet also weirdly masochistically reveling in it, and probably causing other members anguish as well.
I don't understand what you're tying to achieve here?

The logic appears to be rock solid

Can you explain the logic again? It doesn't appear to me to be a question of logic, but a scientific/cosmological/metaphysical question. As far as I am aware the scientific evidence just isn't there. Could you name one prominent cosmologist/physicist who believes in the eternal recurrence of the universe?
Unless you are the greatest genius in cosmology and astrophysics and metaphysics that ever existed, the faith you have in your conclusions seems much stronger than the actual evidence for the idea. It's a thought experiment from Nietzsche with the infinite monkey theorem thrown in, as well as some very questionable cosmological assumptions. Poincare recurrence doesn't seem to be applicable to the universe. The theorem that applies is the no-intersection theorem of nonlinear dynamics (a system that includes chaos can never attain the same state twice.)

"The result (Poincare recurrence) applies to isolated mechanical systems subject to some constraints, e.g., all particles must be bound to a finite volume" (wikidepia). This means that it cannot apply to an ever-expanding universe. The end of the universe would have to be a big crunch for the poincare recurrence theorem to be valid. But the cosmological data point to heat death, not big crunch.

What you seem to be describing is apeirophobia, a fear of infinite things, infinite recurrences like in fractals etc.
It is a phobia, i.e. an irrational fear...

 

[DeadButDreaming]

If you're convinced this is the case the best option is to commit suicide so you spare yourself additional suffering in subsequent lives.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Now that I have learned this, I am unable to reconcile with it

Now that I know how it works, I cannot unsee it

Being more willing to use critical thinking might be useful for you. I'm not saying that to be facetious, what I mean is that it might be good for you to be less certain of yourself and more willing to accept that no one can possible know the absolute truth about anything. You could try to come up with counter-claims and counter-arguments to the eternal recurrence idea so it's more of a dialogue, and less you making yourself more miserable by just accepting the ideas that are the most emotionally overwhelming to you. You could also learn more about cosmology and physics to see just how plausible the idea really is, instead of accepting it at face value and screaming it from the rooftops as if you suddenly know more about reality and the meaning of life than anyone who ever lived, and making yourself more miserable in the process.

I mean, I can see how the boltzman brain thought experiment works, or the brain in a vat thought experiment, I can see the logic of buridan's ass thought experiment, I understand how the mary's room idea tries to show that qualia are non-material, but that doesn't mean that I have to believe these thought experiments or think they are true or apply to reality.

 

[muffin222]

We are mechanical beings, we do not have "essence."

I wish I believed that- if I did I wouldn't still be here vacillating between living and ending it constantly :\ I would just go

 

[ExitStageLeft]

I wish I believed that- if I did I wouldn't still be here vacillating between living and ending it constantly :\ I would just go

Even if you knew you'd just be born again into identical circumstances?

 

[Wayfaerer]

Being more willing to use critical thinking might be useful for you. I'm not saying that to be facetious, what I mean is that it might be good for you to be less certain of yourself and more willing to accept that no one can possible know the absolute truth about anything. You could try to come up with counter-claims and counter-arguments to the eternal recurrence idea so it's more of a dialogue, and less you making yourself more miserable by just accepting the ideas that are the most emotionally overwhelming to you. You could also learn more about cosmology and physics to see just how plausible the idea really is, instead of accepting it at face value and screaming it from the rooftops as if you suddenly know more about reality and the meaning of life than anyone who ever lived, and making yourself more miserable in the process.

I mean, I can see how the boltzman brain thought experiment works, or the brain in a vat thought experiment, I can see the logic of buridan's ass thought experiment, I understand how the mary's room idea tries to show that qualia are non-material, but that doesn't mean that I have to believe these thought experiments or think they are true or apply to reality.

I believe what makes the most sense, unlike ghosts living in our brains pulling levers and pressing buttons like a CAT driver. I am open-minded but no one has been able to counter this theory so far and that is what I am looking for. This is more than just a mere thought experiment, it's accepted as a fully-fledged theory.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I believe what makes the most sense, unlike ghosts living in our brains pulling levers and pressing buttons like a CAT driver. I am open-minded but no one has been able to counter this theory so far and that is what I am looking for. This is more than just a mere thought experiment, it's accepted as a fully-fledged theory.

If that's what you want to believe, then you are free to believe it.
I think the 'ghost in the machine' idea is a bit of a straw man, but hey.
As far as I'm aware, Nietzsche first talked about it in the gay science,
and yes, there are cyclic models in cosmology, and they are theories, but it's not the consensus view.

 

[Wayfaerer]

If that's what you want to believe, then you are free to believe it.
I think the 'ghost in the machine' idea is a bit of a straw man, but hey.
As far as I'm aware, Nietzsche first talked about it in the gay science,
and yes, there are cyclic models in cosmology, and they are theories, but it's not the consensus view.

I am not basing this off Nietzsche, I'm basing this off any deterministic cosmological model. It is simply too strange to have been dead for a near-eternity, pop into conscious existence for a microscopic number of years, and then just pop out of existence for the rest of eternity. If determinism could somehow be proven true then repeating our lives would necessarily be inevitable. I cannot find a flaw in this reasoning.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

If determinism could somehow be proven true

You would need a lot more assumptions and variables in place than just determinism to get the eternal recurrence outcome.
And also, proving determinism to be true is a big task. Half of physics concerns itself with things that are not determined.
But listen, if this is what you're convinced of then what can anyone else say. I agree it's pretty terrifying to think about, but I think there could be more going on that we don't know about.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy..."

 

[muffin222]

Even if you knew you'd just be born again into identical circumstances?

I just don't believe in 100% identical circumstances. I believe every lifetime is unique and can only exist in its precise form once. I believe in a "soul" that is formless and timeless that can "choose" to be born into another physical body. The precise circumstances, people, and events that have shaped my relatively miserable existence in this lifetime won't re-spawn in the exact same way in another lifetime. I believe every moment only exists once and that by making different choices or by slightly altering the details of a circumstance or moment, you can alter the outcome, quite dramatically in some cases. The butterfly effect. I want to emphasize that my personal view on re-incarnation is much more metaphysical in nature than the re-incarnation you guys seem to be debating in this thread, so my views may not sync up with that.

I think that even if I was born again into the exact same physical circumstances in a different physical body, the outcome and the course of my life would not be exactly the same as it is right now. I'm a minority, Autistic, a female. These factors are all tied to my physical body, and all of them cause additional stress and suffering that influences my responses to my circumstances, my perceptions, and even the opportunities that are available to me. If even one of these factors were to change (say, I'm an autistic boy of a different race) in my next lifetime, then the course of my life would be different than it right now, even in the exact same outer circumstances. It could be easier to cope with, or it could be even harder. Of course, I could be re-incarnated as the exact same race, Autistic, in the same physical circumstances, but even then it wouldn't be 100% identical to the life I'm living now because all of the moments I've experienced in this lifetime cannot be re-lived or replicated 100%. They've passed, they've been lived already. I believe every moment in its precise form only exists once, and once it's passed, it doesn't return in that same form again, even if you make the exact same choices because I believe our perceptions, emotions, and physical body are constantly in a state of flux and change.


Also, beyond that, people's perceptions change, society changes, cultural attitudes shift, resources that weren't available 20 years become available, knowledge that wasn't yet known 20 years ago or even right now becomes known, things change with the passage of time. All of these factors converge to impact a person's life, their circumstances, and their responses to those circumstances. That includes oneself and the people around you (family, friends, society, etc). Maybe how people responded to me in 1997 isn't how they would respond to me in 2040. You know? It's more than just the everyday living circumstances. There are so many forces at play that help shape our lives. If these forces change (and they will, and do), then the outcome cannot be exactly the same as it is right now. It just can't. It could be a worse life for me, or it could be better. I can't possibly ascertain it, so I hesitate and agonize over whether suicide is really an escape. The logical conclusion would be to just accept that I cannot know for sure, but I was never the type of person who could settle for such mental acquiescence. I always want to know the answers

 

[Wayfaerer]

You would need a lot more assumptions and variables in place than just determinism to get the eternal recurrence outcome.
And also, proving determinism to be true is a big task. Half of physics concerns itself with things that are not determined.

I know and I find that very frustrating and disappointing as I am on a time crunch and have a series of major decisions that I'll have to make in the future. CTB seemed the obvious choice but if I did that then I'd just be experiencing eternal torture with the exception of the first 12 years of my life which really weren't all that great anyway save for rare occasions.

But listen, if this is what you're convinced of then what can anyone else say.

I could be convinced if someone put forth a reasonable counter-argument that is based on facts and sound logic and not wishful thinking.

I agree it's pretty terrifying to think about, but I think there could be more going on that we don't know about.

There is still a lot to be learned for sure but based on what we know now we can still make reasonable conclusions.

 

[OnlyBuilt4Linxs]

Consciousness is a cruel perversion of the universe. Now that I have learned this, I am unable to reconcile with it. It came at the worst possible time in my life. Now that I know how it works, I cannot unsee it. It makes so much sense! I can't even express my terror over this in person because then people would say "so that means you have to live to the fullest now!" I would if that were practical for me but I'm too far gone now. For fuck's sake, I can just imagine facepalming in frustration in real life. I wouldn't be able to encapsulate the despair without mentioning that CTB is a practical certainty for me.


I think the point that we disagree on is that of free will. Think about it, if EVERYTHING is the EXACT SAME from the beginning of the universe all the way up to your birth, that would require all human thoughts, feelings, and actions having been the EXACT SAME, so that would indicate no free will or odds extremely faaaaaaaaaar beyond human comprehension. To give you an example of how exact the prior conditions would have to be, If during sex, your mother or father even moved an inch differently or if your father's (hate to be graphic here but there's really no way around this) ejaculation occured even a split second before or after than in this universe cycle, you wouldn't exist. If human actions played out the exact same way before your birth like this, then free will is nonsensical. If there is no free will (which I think unfortunately), then it would play out the exact same after your birth just as before.

I seriously doubt it's true though

 

[Wayfaerer]

I seriously doubt it's true though

I sure hope not! There are many possibilities for it to be true, whether that's Many Worlds interpretation, simulation theory and even the big crunch is not 100% ruled out even if it seems unlikely now. It's really shitty being put into a situation like mine and CTB is a huge gamble. It seems intuitive, though.

No see, that's what I'm saying.

If the universe is endlessly cyclical but not identical, it follows that every one of us will experience every possible versions of ourselves: every history that could possibly be "ours". Which means inevitably that I (or rather, my sensory inpute) will experience some versions of themselves that are not suicidal.

The eternal return of the different. Everything that can happen will.

Even if there are other copies of us in parallel universes, the big question would be if we would subjectively experience them.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

the big question would be if we would subjectively experience them.

Yes, just as with clones.
Because different versions of 'us' in parallel universes would be more like clones but with tiny differences.

if someone put forth a reasonable counter-argument that is based on facts and sound logic and not wishful thinking.

If you're basing eternal recurrence on poincare recurrence, then: Poincare recurrence doesn't seem to be applicable to the universe. Poincare recurrence theorem requires not only that the volume of available space is finite, but also that the system is volume-preserving, things that are ruled out by an ever-expanding open universe. The theorem that applies to the universe is the no-intersection theorem of nonlinear dynamics (a system that includes chaos can never attain the same state twice.)

"The result (Poincare recurrence) applies to isolated mechanical systems subject to some constraints, e.g., all particles must be bound to a finite volume" (wikidepia). This means that it cannot apply to an ever-expanding universe. The end of the universe would have to be a big crunch for the poincare recurrence theorem to be valid. But the cosmological data point to heat death, not big crunch.

Also, for poincare recurrence to be true for the universe, the universe would need to be a system with a probability distribution over a set of states (density matrix for a quantum world) in a time stationary theory.
But for this, you need an observer external to the universe. But we are internal observers, so we can only see a non stationary single state scenario (so there can be no recurrence for us who are inside the universe).