If God exists, why did he give such a thing as suicide? Means something? Why don't animals commit suicide?
I believe animals can commit suicide. Just by other means.
For example, for some reasons, animals may be abandoned by their herd. They become lethargic. Because of their abandonment they don't reproduce and because of their lethargy they will end up as food for other animals higher in the food chain.
For reference:
Animal suicide - Wikipedia
I have drawn that analogy in my theory about depression:
My theory on depression
After ruminating about my own life, a lot of reading in this forum, and some valuable conversations in private messages, I found some common patterns that lead me to develop my own theory about depression. What is depression? There are many forms of depression in ICD-10 and DSM-5, and all of...
sanctioned-suicide.net
LookAway
Student
- Mar 19, 2023
- 181
at least suicide is possible. Imagine the torture if it wasn't.
Homo erectus
Mage
- Mar 7, 2023
- 560
Valky
Petulant Child
- Apr 4, 2023
- 1,322
Honestly a very hard question. God gave us the ability to do everything, good and bad. What we do with that responsibility is up to us and our conscience. Now if suicide is right or wrong in biblical terms is not specified as far as I know. I haven't heard of any stories of suicide in the Bible so that is just a big mysterium. But fact is that we are able to do a lot of bad things and if suicide is one of them that is the big question.
Edit: my bad, I forgot about some mentions in the Bible talking about suicide/self sacrifice but it still leaves a lot of question open (see thread)
Edit: my bad, I forgot about some mentions in the Bible talking about suicide/self sacrifice but it still leaves a lot of question open (see thread)
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There are suicides mentioned in the bible:
Seven Suicides in the Bible | Bible.org
1. [Abimelech] called hastily unto the young man his armour-bearer, and said unto him, Draw thy sword, and slay me, that men say not of me, A woman slew him. And his young man thrust him through, and he died (Judges 9:54). 2. And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed with...
Unattainable666
Enlightened
- Mar 31, 2023
- 1,346
If god exists (which I don't believe it does), why does he let children die, why does it allow wars, etc. etc. Because there is no god. Humans are left to their own stupidity (not saying all humans are stupid - just the majority). Believing in something that promises to protect you and love you is fruitless.
Darkover
Angelic
- Jul 29, 2021
- 4,731
The Bible views suicide as equal to murder, which is what it is—self-murder. God is the only one who is to decide when and how a person should die, delusional bullshit, the bible is full of contradictions.
God is the giver of life. He gives, and He takes away (Job 1:21). Suicide, the taking of one's own life, is ungodly because it rejects God's gift of life. No man or woman should presume to take God's authority upon themselves to end his or her own life.
but god decides when and how i will die even if thats via suicide
God is the giver of life. He gives, and He takes away (Job 1:21). Suicide, the taking of one's own life, is ungodly because it rejects God's gift of life. No man or woman should presume to take God's authority upon themselves to end his or her own life.
but god decides when and how i will die even if thats via suicide
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Valky
Petulant Child
- Apr 4, 2023
- 1,322
Damn you are completely right, I forgot about these. But still, there is really no justification mentioned for what they did. It just happened. So does that mean suicide is always okay? Or only in specific scenarios. Was it suicide or was it a self sacrifice that needed to be done. Somehow these mentions still leave a lot of questions open.There are suicides mentioned in the bible:
Seven Suicides in the Bible | Bible.org
1. [Abimelech] called hastily unto the young man his armour-bearer, and said unto him, Draw thy sword, and slay me, that men say not of me, A woman slew him. And his young man thrust him through, and he died (Judges 9:54). 2. And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed with...bible.org
I forgot about the source but there was a video of a priest that commented on this issue.
Basically his position was that its the responsibility of anyone around a suicidal person to offer every possible support.
If someone commits suicide, it was his understanding that it must have been as a reaction to uttermost pain and that this person failed to see any alternatives. For this, he said, there is no right or wrong here, just a deeply saddening situation for which there — according to his belief — is no special punishment by god
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Homo erectus
Mage
- Mar 7, 2023
- 560
Jesus was interpreted as the final sacrifice. Was it also a form of suicide?
The old biblical world doesn't seem to be that rigidly pro-life. Then Christianity encouraged people to be peace-loving, pro-life, which was probably what the Roman authorities wanted.
Some animals do commit suicide, either to maintain their own populations and ensure continued success of their species or by losing interest in living, typically after successfully procreating and then allowing themselves to fall prey to the food chain. Suicide is just one of many ways an organism can die.
Are Lemmings not renowned for committing mass suicide ?
I'm not sure I even believe in God but from what I can ascertain from what we DO know- God seems to want ABSOLUTE compliance. He/she/it wants us to obey them in spite of what we might want. If you think about it- we have been designed to struggle. Think about the things we are forbidden to do- the sins- pride, greed, wrath, envy, lust, gluttony and sloth. We are all VERY capable of any/ all of them. In fact- we are pretty much designed to WANT to do a lot of them.
Honestly- I REALLY struggle with the whole God/ religion thing. Do you suppose these sins apply to the animal kingdom? Can sloths be criticized for being slothful?
If God ONLY wanted beings that obeyed him/her/it- why didn't they create robots? Why create a being that can choose? Because God clearly wants us to CHOOSE to obey them- even if it isn't in our own interests. So- we can choose to be proud, greedy, angry, jealous, lustful, glutonous and lazy but God supposedly hopes that we won't. We can choose to murder one another or ourselves.
Personally- I feel like it's more likely God and religions are manmade myths invented to try and curtail some of mankinds unpleasant characteristics. I suspect the period when there became enough of us that we started to need to live in communities- it became advantagous to create methods to control people. Social laws and punishments are one way, religion is another. Anti suicide is just another one- to keep the labour force intact.
Honestly- I REALLY struggle with the whole God/ religion thing. Do you suppose these sins apply to the animal kingdom? Can sloths be criticized for being slothful?
If God ONLY wanted beings that obeyed him/her/it- why didn't they create robots? Why create a being that can choose? Because God clearly wants us to CHOOSE to obey them- even if it isn't in our own interests. So- we can choose to be proud, greedy, angry, jealous, lustful, glutonous and lazy but God supposedly hopes that we won't. We can choose to murder one another or ourselves.
Personally- I feel like it's more likely God and religions are manmade myths invented to try and curtail some of mankinds unpleasant characteristics. I suspect the period when there became enough of us that we started to need to live in communities- it became advantagous to create methods to control people. Social laws and punishments are one way, religion is another. Anti suicide is just another one- to keep the labour force intact.
Valky
Petulant Child
- Apr 4, 2023
- 1,322
That is sadly the problem with the Bible. Asides from if I think the priest is wrong or right. A lot of things being said in connection to the Bible are assumptions or interpretations. We sadly can't know for certain if that is right or wrong. We can only shape our own path to what we believe is the verdict of certain situations. And those will always be influenced by our own beliefs and consciousness.
trist
Student
- Mar 21, 2023
- 114
i once read something about a dolphin committing suicide
That's actually a myth... It's claimed that Disney (of all companies
) faked the footage that supposedly 'proved' this theory:
Lemming Suicide Myth, Alaska Department of Fish and Game
Alaska Wildlife News is an online magazine published by the Alaska Department of Fish and Game
It's even rumoured that they forced or even threw the poor animals off the cliff! Horrendous!
That said- some zoo animals have been claimed to commit suicide.
Amakishiyo
Despite everything, it's still you
- Mar 5, 2023
- 118
Same can be said for anything, terminal and chronic illness, babies dying at birth and whatever else that is just pointless and cruel. No point to discuss it, if god exists he's a sick bastard.
Valky
Petulant Child
- Apr 4, 2023
- 1,322
They do tho :) for example there is this plant (don't remember the name, sorry) that burns so badly for days once you come in contact with it that even animals are reported to have commited suicided due to the pain. Maybe it is just a stress response tho? But Dolphins are also claimed to bonk their head against walls, etc. as a way of killing themselves.
Someone mentioned lemmings, although their behavior of running off a cliff when their population grows too big is attributed to trying to find other territory, but many of them die in the process. Many animals may chose to be taken by predators for various reasons. I can't say whether suicidal thoughts in humans that stem from depression are also experienced by animals. But generally speaking self-destruction or allowing oneself to die intentionally is considered a form of suicide and many organisms can experience this.
There's no 'god' figure who tells us what's ok and not ok and what we should or shouldn't do. These all stem from our biological nature and the culture or the common behavioral expectations set by a given community.
That's so true! No book – holy or not – contains all the answers to the meaning of life.
We're on our own. Our whole existence is formed by our reaction to a perceived reality.
Objectively, there is no meaning. We all die; no one leaves traces in the big scheme of things.
I've written that in another thread:
But what if these "distractions" of normal (happy?) people are the act of creating meaning? That's almost god-like. They're creating meaning out of nothing in a meaningless world. How cool is that?
Valky
Petulant Child
- Apr 4, 2023
- 1,322
I don't think it was suicide. Considering how Jesus stood on the hill yelling to God 'why are you doing this to me?' (Warum tust du mir das an?). It makes it sound like he didn't want to die but he knew it was his purpose.
Again, sadly a lot of people just sadly interpret the Bible the way they want it to be. Words and biblical stances are often bend to fit their will, not making it a very reliable source of information.
Spiders and Mantis are the obvious ones- the male sometimes gets eaten after mating- sometimes before! I'd argue that the intention isn't to commit suicide though- it's to mate. Even though they seem to be aware of the risks- that desire seems to overwhelm everything else.
In some octopus species- the mother will stop eating after laying eggs and will eventually die. Apparently scientists are now researching a change in their optic gland (similar to the pituitary gland in mammals) which may cause this self destructive behaviour. Again though- while this may well turn out to be mental illness that causes this- I'd argue that it maybe isn't the octopus' intention to kill themselves.
I wonder if there are parallels with humans. Some people seem to experience UNWANTED suicidal impulses and destructive behaviour- whereas- other people experience it as a natual, logical response to their lives.
It's hard to judge how much intention there is to die when an animal becomes injured or ill and chooses to isolate itself. Sometimes I suspect it will do this for it's own safety. I think SOME animals will react negatively to sick animals within their own pack. Others seem to protect them though. I certainly think animals can become stressed and depressed though and I'm sure this can lead them to early deaths. It's just whether their early demise is intentional I suppose.
Valky
Petulant Child
- Apr 4, 2023
- 1,322
Imagine we actually had that though. That would be hilarious. 'The path to life' hmm, 'how to live life'? 'The path to happiness'? It for sure would have a stupid name haha
'Our whole existence is formed by our reaction to a perceived reality'
That is so very true. I love how you worded it.
The meaning of life; definitely something worth writing thousands of pages about. For me personally:
the meaning of life is to find your very own meaning of life. What makes you happy? What fulfills you? What are your passions and interests? And so on :)
That is what creates meaning for me. Our existence is meaning. We are meaning.
Actually, I think it's better that we don't have it. It leaves room for people to create entirely new experiences.
And just imagine someone who feels they failed at life but hasn't read the book. When it's too late, he finds that book just to realize how easy it would have been not to fail. It would for sure increase suicide rates.
Well said. In that sense we become our own god. Creating meaning out of nothing.
I have to disagree with that one, though. It takes more than sheer existence to "have" (for the lack of a better word) meaning. Meaning is an act of creation. Existence in and of itself is meaningless. This makes creating it all the more substantial.
Sadly, this act of creation can fail. As godlike as it sounds, eventually, we are no gods as we're not infallible. Accepting this means accepting that some people's lives can fail and degrade to existence in pain beyond repair. That's "rational suicide" then.
Valky
Petulant Child
- Apr 4, 2023
- 1,322
Having such a book would be way too boring. But I also feel like that would be a school lecture or smth. I would certainly fall asleep during it. Wait, maybe that's what's been going wrong this whole time -.-
But aren't we a creation? If we are a creation we are also meaning. Our meaning is to live life as well. If our world becomes meaningless then we lose the quality of our whole existence and our meaning seems to vanish.
This is precisely the point here. Some people's lives brought them to a point where they lost the quality of their existence. Suicidal thoughts come from exactly this point.
Unfortunately, meaning cannot always be recreated. We're not infallible – we can fail, we can fail repeatedly, and we can fail terminally. In these cases, the only choice is between enduring and suicide. To some, the latter is more appealing because their pain cannot be endured any longer. Just like with any illness, there is no cure for every case.
I would gladly help anyone with suicidal intention to find hope again, to rebuild their motivation to continue. But if they have tried, given their best, and still suffer, telling them to find pleasure in their existence when they don't is not helping them. It's pointless in the same way as not stopping resuscitation attempts when there clearly is no hope.
Valky
Petulant Child
- Apr 4, 2023
- 1,322
I try to believe otherwise. I like to believe there is hope for everyone. I really do. But sadly it seems that that is the inevitable truth I still need to accept. But if I don't have hope, who does. I also like to believe that there is always still a chance for a better life. Miracles exist….but I understand that they don't exist for everyone.
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