from pro-choice to pro-life?

[thaelyana]

hey! I've been wondering about something. has getting better ever made you shift from a pro-choice mindset to a more pro-life one? like , did you actually feel that change inside?

keep taking care of yourselves and keep healing

 

[RadiantNumber]

I think such person would be quickly banned, especially when they would try to flood suicide discussion board with pro-life messages

 

[Pluto]

 

[thaelyana]

I think such person would be quickly banned, especially when they would try to flood suicide discussion board with pro-life messages

Surely, yes. But what I was really thinking about is someone who, after getting better, started to see things differently, maybe things we can't quite see yet, in the state we're currently in. I guess I'm trying to find some kind of hope in life, lol.
Someone who ends up thinking that no one truly deserves an end like that, or who starts to feel deeply that there's something worth holding onto in life, even in its most fragile forms ? This kind of shift in perspective does exist, doesn't it?
Ty

 

[RadiantNumber]

Surely, yes. But what I was really thinking about is someone who, after getting better, started to see things differently, maybe things we can't quite see yet, in the state we're currently in. I guess I'm trying to find some kind of hope in life, lol.
Someone who ends up thinking that no one truly deserves an end like that, or who starts to feel deeply that there's something worth holding onto in life, even in its most fragile forms ? This kind of shift in perspective does exist, doesn't it?
Ty

Maybe, there are some of such people here i don't know, I speak from the other side

 

[_Gollum_]

Surely, yes. But what I was really thinking about is someone who, after getting better, started to see things differently, maybe things we can't quite see yet, in the state we're currently in. I guess I'm trying to find some kind of hope in life, lol.
Someone who ends up thinking that no one truly deserves an end like that, or who starts to feel deeply that there's something worth holding onto in life, even in its most fragile forms ? This kind of shift in perspective does exist, doesn't it?
Ty

There are plenty of ex-suicidal anti-suicide advocates out there. People who say "I'm so glad I didn't CTB back then, because I'm so grateful to be living now." They claim that while depressed, they were not able to think clearly and their judgement was clouded. They then come to believe that other suicidal people would see the beauty in life if they would just get the help they need and come out of their stupor.

I think this quote puts it well:
"You don't think in depression that you've put on a grey veil and are seeing the world through the haze of a bad mood. You think that the veil has been taken away, the veil of happiness, and that now you're seeing truly [...] you think that truth is a fixed thing [...] You can exorcise the demons of schizophrenics who perceive that there's something foreign inside them. But it's much harder with depressed people because we believe we are seeing the truth. [...] Only one remark was really helpful through all of this. A friend said, 'It won't always be like this. See if you can just remember that. It's like this right now, and it won't always be like this.'"

I don't find any of this convincing, but YMMV.

 

[Kalista]

Surely, yes. But what I was really thinking about is someone who, after getting better, started to see things differently, maybe things we can't quite see yet, in the state we're currently in. I guess I'm trying to find some kind of hope in life, lol.
Someone who ends up thinking that no one truly deserves an end like that, or who starts to feel deeply that there's something worth holding onto in life, even in its most fragile forms ? This kind of shift in perspective does exist, doesn't it?

that shift in perspective is possible and it exists.

however, choice is not some concept that can be changed just because someone started feeling better as it is inherent, consistent, and exists outside of personal opinions. what's changing is that person's 'frame of mind', not choice itself.
based on how you're interpreting 'pro-choice,' it is not automatically a path to suicide. it's simply that, a choice. a choice that every single person in this world has. whether to continue living or to choose to die no matter the circumstance.

being pro-choice respects the person's decisions, their autonomous right.
a shift from pro-choice to pro-life becomes a closed-minded perspective, and ignores and dismisses the inherent choice an individual has. furthermore, it aims to manipulate that decision with external optimism to make themselves feel better -- people thinking they know what's best for the individual as if they truly know their pain when they truly don't. while it's not always a bad thing, it is, however, what the person doesn't want or need in many situations if they're choosing to die. forcing this kind of thinking -- "there's something worth holding on to" -- to someone is false hope to many and shouldn't be used in a generalized manner like many in here annoyingly already do. taking a neutral stance is the best position to be in if individual choice is to be absolutely respected. otherwise it isn't and it becomes what others want, not the person choosing to die.

overall, just because someone is beginning to feel better does not mean that person can make others feel the same. each person's upbringing and current situation is different, each person has different pain thresholds, each person has different wants and needs. these are things that should never be ignored just because someone started to feel something positive in their life.

 

[CatLvr]

Absolutely not.

I was pro-choice LONG before a suicidal thought ever crossed my mind.

It doesn't matter who. It doesn't matter why. All that matters is the right to choose to end your life whenever you want, for whatever you want, should be THE one basic human right we all honor. In my opinion, of course. No one should have the right to decide if your reason for wanting to leave this life is "okay".

 

[thaelyana]

that shift in perspective is possible and it exists.

however, choice is not some concept that can be changed just because someone started feeling better as it is inherent, consistent, and exists outside of personal opinions. what's changing is that person's 'frame of mind', not choice itself.
based on how you're interpreting 'pro-choice,' it is not automatically a path to suicide. it's simply that, a choice. a choice that every single person in this world has. whether to continue living or to choose to die no matter the circumstance.

being pro-choice respects the person's decisions, their autonomous right.
a shift from pro-choice to pro-life becomes a closed-minded perspective, and ignores and dismisses the inherent choice an individual has. furthermore, it aims to manipulate that decision with external optimism to make themselves feel better -- people thinking they know what's best for the individual as if they truly know their pain when they truly don't. while it's not always a bad thing, it is, however, what the person doesn't want or need in many situations if they're choosing to die. forcing this kind of thinking -- "there's something worth holding on to" -- to someone is false hope to many and shouldn't be used in a generalized manner like many in here annoyingly already do. taking a neutral stance is the best position to be in if individual choice is to be absolutely respected. otherwise it isn't and it becomes what others want, not the person choosing to die.

overall, just because someone is beginning to feel better does not mean that person can make others feel the same. each person's upbringing and current situation is different, each person has different pain thresholds, each person has different wants and needs. these are things that should never be ignored just because someone started to feel something positive in their life.

Thank you your answer is great!! Thank you the question was running a lot in my head

Absolutely not.

I was pro-choice LONG before a suicidal thought ever crossed my mind.

It doesn't matter who. It doesn't matter why. All that matters is the right to choose to end your life whenever you want, for whatever you want, should be THE one basic human right we all honor. In my opinion, of course. No one should have the right to decide if your reason for wanting to leave this life is "okay".

I agree with you, it's nice of you to have answered me!! It was very annoying to think about that lol, when I asked the question to the AI I was stupidly answered!! "UH YES! AND WE MUST NOT CTB " THANK YOU!

 

[lost_one]

I think there is a big difference between getting better, wanting to live, "recovery" and turning pro-life.

I think like others have said that you can theoretically turn pro-life when you get better, but I find that question a bit silly, cause I think you don't need to be pro-life to recover. And be pro-choice is exactly that, is to support people and what they want, and support people if they want to live and get better too. It's just accepting that people should have the right to choose for themselves, it is autonomy.

You can, like you said belive that there is something worth holding on to in life, and still be pro-choice, you found that, you want to live and we support that, that is why we have a recovery section on this website. Shifting one's perception is hard, but not impossible, but don't confuse you choosing to live and find meaning even in suffering with forcing others to do the same.

(edit: typos, so many...)
Good luck

 

[thaelyana]

I think there is a big difference between getting better, wanting to live, "recovery" and turning pro-life.

I think like others have said that you can theoretically turn pro-life when you get better, but I find that question a bit silly, cause I think you don't need to be pro-life to recover. And be pro-choice is exactly that, is to support people and what they want, and support people if they want to live and get better too. It's just accepting that people should have the right to choose for themselves, it is autonomy.

You can like you said belive that there is something worth holding on to in life, and still be pro-coice, you found that, you want to live and we support that, that is why we have a recovery section on this website. Shifting one's perseption if hard, but not impossible, but don't confuse you choosing to live and find meaning even in suffering to forcing others to do the same.

Good luck

Thank you very much! it helps to think

 

[GhostInTheMachine]

I personally hate the terms pro-life and pro-choice in this context. I understand it's shorthand, but frankly it's really stupid. I prefer pro-mercy and anti-mercy, because at the end of the day the choice isn't about life and death, it's about suffering and not suffering. There's a prevailing attitude here that life is this unsalvageable experience that can only be "resolved" by dying, but I think that's really closed-minded thinking. For most people here, if their life circumstances (physical, emotional, material, etc) were remarkably improved, they wouldn't be strongly advocating that people just kill themselves. Does that make them "pro-choice"? I wouldn't say so, it's just that they no longer have a strong desire to essentially be mercy killed.

Instead the question should be "Do you believe those who suffer should be allowed the mercy of death"? Thus, are you pro-mercy or anti-mercy?

 

[thaelyana]

I personally hate the terms pro-life and pro-choice in this context. I understand it's shorthand, but frankly it's really stupid. I prefer pro-mercy and anti-mercy, because at the end of the day the choice isn't about life and death, it's about suffering and not suffering

I will inquire about this; thank you

 

[Praestat_Mori]

For most of my life, I've not been suicidal. However, sometimes I got notice of some "celebrities" in the news who took their life. I've never understood how someone could do this, but it was always clear that they had their personal reasons, and I clearly had no influence on this - it's their choice, not mine. I didn't think about it further.

Despite not being suicidal myself for most of my life, it was always clear to me that I might end up in a kind of critical situation myself where suicide is an option. That includes failure, severe health issues or even other circumstances that make suicide more preferable than to go on living for many different reasons.

Since I joined SS more than 2 years ago, my general situation hasn't improved in the sense of solving the core problem that makes me suicidal, but the situation has calmed down, and everything has settled on a fragile bottom, so to say. I won't ever change my mind about pro-choice bc imo there's always an uncontrollable reason behind each suicide. Any life form is programmed to live at all costs, but we humans can consciously decide and make a choice - however, dying by our own hands is a difficult task even with the most peaceful method.

I believe, most suicidal people would prefer a permanent and positive solution to their problems that makes them suicidal instead of suicide.

 

[Lookingtoflyfree]

hey! I've been wondering about something. has getting better ever made you shift from a pro-choice mindset to a more pro-life one? like , did you actually feel that change inside?

keep taking care of yourselves and keep healing

Pro-choice forever - nobody is going to determine my choice over bodily autonomy, full stop.

 

[BlueLock]

For myself yes. I still feel suicidal from time to time but only when I feel backed into a corner or when things get really bad. For the most part I'm feeling like living life isn't so bad right now.

For others it's complicated. I understand the appeal of suicide really really well so I can't really criticize it too much. But I also think it's not the best option for most people. I think this site can be heavily biased towards thinking every suicide is valid and justified and the most merciful option. For a lot of people on here I think they can recover. It's not encouraged to say this thing on here but it's what I think.

I don't think suicide should ever be encouraged by anyone else. I don't think doctors should suggest MAID. And I don't think dual suicides are ethical just because it could be coercive. I also think professionals have a duty to discourage suicide attempts in their patients. But I do think people should have the right to commit suicide if they want to. It's complicated and very hard to give a straightforward answer.

I guess to simplify it's your right to commit suicide but I will feel sad about and I hope you consider your other options.

 

[thaelyana]

For myself yes. I still feel suicidal from time to time but only when I feel backed into a corner or when things get really bad. For the most part I'm feeling like living life isn't so bad right now.

For others it's complicated. I understand the appeal of suicide really really well so I can't really criticize it too much. But I also think it's not the best option for most people. I think this site can be heavily biased towards thinking every suicide is valid and justified and the most merciful option. For a lot of people on here I think they can recover. It's not encouraged to say this thing on here but it's what I think.

I don't think suicide should ever be encouraged by anyone else. I don't think doctors should suggest MAID. And I don't think dual suicides are ethical just because it could be coercive. I also think professionals have a duty to discourage suicide attempts in their patients. But I do think people should have the right to commit suicide if they want to. It's complicated and very hard to give a straightforward answer.

I guess to simplify it's your right to commit suicide but I will feel sad about and I hope you consider your other options.

Yes!! I think exactly the same thing, it's hard!! Thank you.

 

[Hymn223]

I think such person would be quickly banned, especially when they would try to flood suicide discussion board with pro-life messages

i'm pretty sure being pro life isnt against the sasu rules

 

[thaelyana]

i'm pretty sure being pro life isnt against the sasu rules

No, there are even pro life debates - pro choice :) .

 

[RadiantNumber]

i'm pretty sure being pro life isnt against the sasu rules

no it isn't but gaslighting other user to not CTB I think isn't much welcomed

 

[EmptyBottle]

I believe, most suicidal people would prefer a permanent and positive solution to their problems that makes them suicidal instead of suicide.

I agree, when I had CTB wishes, escape from annoying conditions thru other means would also have helped.

For the original topic, I don't want to push others to choose life, tho I feel better when I see someone choosing life themselves. The best I can do is try and be helpful, and maybe they will choose life... tho if not, not much can be done (yes, there are more complex and non-invasive ways to help online... but I'm not an expert)

I can however, push myself a little to choose life, coz that is the only person I have almost full control over, and wouldn't mind me using the control (no, I don't have DID)

 

[thaelyana]

h

I agree, when I had CTB wishes, escape from annoying conditions thru other means would also have helped.

For the original topic, I don't want to push others to choose life, tho I feel better when I see someone choosing life themselves. The best I can do is try and be helpful, and maybe they will choose life... tho if not, not much can be done (yes, there are more complex and non-invasive ways to help online... but I'm not an expert)

I can however, push myself a little to choose life, coz that is the only person I have almost full control over, and wouldn't mind me using the control (no, I don't have DID)

Ahah thank you for your answer! I share this opinion exactly. saying goodbye is too difficult I always hope that the person chooses life .. but at the same time I would hate someone telling me what to do.. thank you

 

[Cloud Busting]

I think it is a mistake to conflate pro-choice with promortalism or pro-death views. Also consider that promortalist philosophies like Buddhism or the philosophical pessimism of Arthur Shopenhauer believe non existence is preferable as it ceases suffering, yet think suicide does not solve the problem of say samsara (Buddhism) or the will (Shopenhauer.)

You can support a persons right to exist within this life while also supporting non existence or the right to die. These views are not mutually exclusive imo.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

I'm more of a pro-make-life-worth-living-for-everyone kinda guy. Everyone has their choice, but when their choice is to make life awful for others, well pal, you've crossed the line.

 

[AnimeSlayersFan]

Fuck no lol.
I'm kinda pendulum swinging through my mental states, and with meds I may get better, so when I feel those "feel good hopeful moments" and then they go away, then I get to feel them again, despair, then hope, in a cycle, I think I can get a bit more of a perspective myself.

I will never deny a person who truly wants it the choice, now, when you "been there" you can also help people a lot more, when people around me feel like shit or have like a panic attack, I'm more accepting than people who never been in that situation, kind of gallows humor compassion.
Being in a mental ward for a bit was really eye opening for me to the struggles of people. So when my aunt started having a panic attack in front of me, I just grabbed the knife sitting close to her in the table and waited it out, while everyone else was really distressed and talking to her.
You don't talk to someone that's having an anxiety attack, you will trigger them more, I know cause I have had moments like that.
I also remember feeling like I wanted to stab myself at times during a panic attack or something, so I also took that measure.

So no, when you "get better" for me, even momentarily, you just feel more compassion for other people who are going through struggle.
But I hated being put in a mental ward when I wanted to kill myself, I hated it so goddamn much. I truly wanted to go, and while I "got better" in a way, meaning, returned to a baseline kinda, I don't feel there's inherent value on "saving people". Because my life may very well turn into a nightmare now, or heaven, but it's like schrondinger's cat, until you live it out, your life is both in a state of being good, and shit at the same time, therefore, it doesn't hold any value but "neutral value".

I'd say suicide is a neutral activity. And therefore, I'm pro choice, because being pro-life doesn't take any detail of the situation into consideration. It just assumes that life is inherently more worth it, just because.

 

[JealousOfTheElderly]

I'm not pro life at all... 100% believe in abortion and suicide as fundamental rights. "My body, my choice".

 

[Sweet Tart]

I think the recovery process is unique to each person who goes through it. The idea of someone determining what others should or shouldn't do, seems like a lack of empathy for how different all of our situations are.

I guess I think of myself as "in recovery" but not recovered. I am pro-choice (in all the ways) & can't imagine being any other way. People deserve the dignity to live or not live, according to how they feel.

 

[WeepingWorm]

I'm in an interesting position. I used to entertain nihilistic thoughts, but at this stage I believe that it is good to preserve life or at least not destroy it willingly, and that a person in trouble should be helped as much as possible so it would not lead to suicide. Unfortunately, circumstances often leave much to be desired. That said, I also believe that everyone has a will of their own and should make and be responsible for their own choices.
I don't believe in "human rights" though, and neither do the governments which claim they do.
So what does that make me?

 

[cat_enjoyer22]

Sometimes! Not for very long periods of time, though.

 

[INYGTRMTFMO]

I'm more of a pro-make-life-worth-living-for-everyone kinda guy

This. I'm pro-choice in pretty much all regards, be it this context, the original context, ect. Of course, I don't want people to die in this way, but I think they should have the right to. I wish none of us were sad enough, ill enough, hopeless enough, in enough pain or stress or trauma, ect. to want to take our own lives.