Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[Endoflifer]

Sorry to bother you all again, this time it's a question about hyperventilating for the exit bag method. Someone said it wasn't strictly necessary, but I'm a smoker and don't want to wait too long before the lights go out, so aside from not smoking for two days prior, I also intend to do the two minutes of hyperventilating beforehand. Now it makes sense to me that it should be done while the bag is inflating on top of your head, which should also take a couple of minutes (including the time to wash out remaining air). But I haven't seen any confirmation of this. Could anyone pitch in? Frankly speaking the idea of hyperventilating beforehand is a bit off-putting to me, as it definitely makes for a much more energizing and therefore nerve-wracking experience (as if it won't be already). I used to do some Wim Hof breathing, which combines a form of hyperventilating with retention, and the retention part is actually very soothing and relaxing. But unfortunately that's exactly the part that makes for a buildup of CO2, so I'm afraid that's not an option :(

 

[kudaphillips]

Sorry to bother you all again, this time it's a question about hyperventilating for the exit bag method. Someone said it wasn't strictly necessary, but I'm a smoker and don't want to wait too long before the lights go out, so aside from not smoking for two days prior, I also intend to do the two minutes of hyperventilating beforehand. Now it makes sense to me that it should be done while the bag is inflating on top of your head, which should also take a couple of minutes (including the time to wash out remaining air). But I haven't seen any confirmation of this. Could anyone pitch in? Frankly speaking the idea of hyperventilating beforehand is a bit off-putting to me, as it definitely makes for a much more energizing and therefore nerve-wracking experience (as if it won't be already). I used to do some Wim Hof breathing, which combines a form of hyperventilating with retention, and the retention part is actually very soothing and relaxing. But unfortunately that's exactly the part that makes for a buildup of CO2, so I'm afraid that's not an option :(

I hate hyperventilating also, did a lot of wim hoff. In my opinion I think 2 full minutes of it is overkill .

I think Ill do it for 20-30 seconds so that I can have less desire to breath after the exhale , whie I pull the bag down , strap my hands , and give any ambient air that got in during the pull down time to blow out before I take the big breath

 

[littleadonis]

Guys, if people might have problems with the bag leaking, why not put one bag on top of another? What I'm saying is, make one exit bag and then put a second oven bag over it. It's harmless and unimpeding, it's easy, it makes the method more reliable, and oven bags are cheap and come in packs anyway. Why not just put one unmade bag over a made bag?

 

[kudaphillips]

Guys, if people might have problems with the bag leaking, why not put one bag on top of another? What I'm saying is, make one exit bag and then put a second oven bag over it. It's harmless and unimpeding, it's easy, it makes the method more reliable, and oven bags are cheap and come in packs anyway. Why not just put one unmade bag over a made bag?

Interesting idea . I don't see a problem with it . Only thing is I haven't heard of bag leaking being an issue . Even if there were micro holes in the bag I think it would still function , air wouldn't get in because of the positive pressure .
Think about it … there's basically holes in the bottom of the bag around your neck , it's not air tight . But anything to feel more comfortable. Why not .

I did my usually daily attempt and chickened out as usual and got mad and tried to rip the bag and I honestly couldn't . The bags are freaking durable . Theyr Meant to cook a turkey at 350 degrees for several hours .

 

[littleadonis]

Only thing is I haven't heard of bag leaking being an issue .

I have seen at least three claims in the small amount of time I've been on the site without looking for them where a person complained that the method didn't work and that they didn't even feel themselves going unconscious. They blamed it on the manufacturers lying about the purity but I and others postulated that it might be a leak in the bag or a different problem with the setup.

Even if there were micro holes in the bag I think it would still function , air wouldn't get in because of the positive pressure .
Think about it … there's basically holes in the bottom of the bag around your neck , it's not air tight .

As far as I understand it, the nitrogen is lighter than the air and co2 so the gravity along with the pressure from the gas flow coming from a hose that should be near the top of the inside of the bag should lead to the n2 purging all the regular air and co2 downwards and out the bag.

I did my usually daily attempt and chickened out as usual and got mad and tried to rip the bag and I honestly couldn't . The bags are freaking durable . Theyr Meant to cook a turkey at 350 degrees for several hours .

Maybe it wasn't the bag that failed then. It might have been something like the hose leaking. It's hard to say from here.

 

[kudaphillips]

I have seen at least three claims in the small amount of time I've been on the site without looking for them where a person complained that the method didn't work and that they didn't even feel themselves going unconscious. They blamed it on the manufacturers lying about the purity but I and others postulated that it might be a leak in the bag or a different problem with the setup.

As far as I understand it, the nitrogen is lighter than the air and co2 so the gravity along with the pressure from the gas flow coming from a hose that should be near the top of the inside of the bag should lead to the n2 purging all the regular air and co2 downwards and out the bag.

Maybe it wasn't the bag that failed then. It might have been something like the hose leaking. It's hard to say from here.

ya leaks are def a concern but more in the regulator threads / hose etc. you can check for leaks in the bag by inflating it then feeling for leaks . Can check the threads and tube with soap water and check for bubbles .One of the videos demonstrated this , not Betty but another one .

But like I said I don't think I see a problem with double bagging if it makes one feel
More comfortable . But I just know the bags are fucking insanely durable , at least the brand I have . I've been at it for a couple years tons of bags tons of tests never seen one leak .

Now if you leave one out and the cat claws it or something I could see it . But I make sure nothing touches mine .

 

[littleadonis]

ya leaks are def a concern but more in the regulator threads / hose etc.

I guess a wrench is necessary then.

Can check the threads and tube with soap water and check for bubbles .One of the videos demonstrated this , not Betty but another one .

Do you have a link?

 

[kudaphillips]

Trying to post link but it's not working . The guy just inflates the bag and kinda puts pressure on it and feels with his face for leaks .

Ya def wrench needed for some regulators

 

[littleadonis]

Trying to post link but it's not working . The guy just inflates the bag and kinda puts pressure on it and feels with his face for leaks .

No I mean the video you were talking about of the guy testing the connectors and hose.

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

I'm actually going to start by making the exit bag. I do have a question about the hose. I got an aquarium hose that seems to fit tightly onto the hose barb that came with the regulator. Internal diameter is 6 mm. That should be fine, right? Much appreciated!

You can buy oxygen tubing from a pharmacy (or Amzn) as well. I think they're about 6 mm.

Where did you hear this? I was just about to buy a 35x43cm oven bag that I thought would be more than enough.

The smaller it is the more likely it's going to get stuck in your mouth while breathing. I think that's the logic behind the size.

 

[littleadonis]

What do we think is the best excuse when collecting a gas cylinder? I think saying that you're using the gas to fill tyres is the best because everyone has access to tyres presumably and anyone might desire an oxygen free environment for their tyres. Although I think it maybe best to say bike tyres?? Because car tyres are really big requiring a lot of gas and that would be contradictory to the relatively small cylinder that you're collecting.

 

[Endoflifer]

Where I live you don't need an excuse, but you can always say you're picking it up for a welding job someone else is going to carry out, so you don't need to know anything about it.

Now I've been trying out a few different bags I made and checking the setup for leaks. Turned out the regulator wasn't attached tightly enough and some leakage showed (I used leak detecting spray). After tightening the bolt more with a wrench the leakage had stopped. Now my 200 bars are already down to 185, and I haven't had the cylinder valve open for more than two minutes altogether. Even with some leakage, that seems like a steep drop to me. I have a 5-liter cylinder, so I guess I should still be fine. Is the bar pressure drop linear? Should I be worried? I don't know how to go from here, to be honest. Maybe let it flow for another few minutes and see if it still drops as quickly (and hope that it doesn't)?

 

[outrider567]

Where I live you don't need an excuse, but you can always say you're picking it up for a welding job someone else is going to carry out, so you don't need to know anything about it.

Now I've been trying out a few different bags I made and checking the setup for leaks. Turned out the regulator wasn't attached tightly enough and some leakage showed (I used leak detecting spray). After tightening the bolt more with a wrench the leakage had stopped. Now my 200 bars are already down to 185, and I haven't had the cylinder valve open for more than two minutes altogether. Even with some leakage, that seems like a steep drop to me. I have a 5-liter cylinder, so I guess I should still be fine. Is the bar pressure drop linear? Should I be worried? I don't know how to go from here, to be honest. Maybe let it flow for another few minutes and see if it still drops as quickly (and hope that it doesn't)?

I've never tested mine for leaks, no need to, because Greenberg always stated to always use a wrench to tighten it securely

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

What do we think is the best excuse when collecting a gas cylinder? I think saying that you're using the gas to fill tyres is the best because everyone has access to tyres presumably and anyone might desire an oxygen free environment for their tyres. Although I think it maybe best to say bike tyres?? Because car tyres are really big requiring a lot of gas and that would be contradictory to the relatively small cylinder that you're collecting.

Over here there are at least 2 shops where you can order online and delivered or pick it up at a delivery point. Helium = welding, Nitrogen = beer brewing (not common, but it can be used for that). Both for my uncle whose regular supplier went broke and who doesn't know anything about ordering on the Internet.

 

[Endoflifer]

I've never tested mine for leaks, no need to, because Greenberg always stated to always use a wrench to tighten it securely

Well, I'm glad I did. I thought I'd tightened it secur

Well, I'm glad I did. I thought I'd tightened it securely but apparently not. It's because I watched some videos about attaching a regulator and they warned about exerting too much force and damaging the threads. I suppose that's for when you intend to use it more than once though, which we mostly don't (unless you want to practice assembling the setup first, of course). Any thoughts about the question regarding the pressure drop?

You can buy oxygen tubing from a pharmacy (or Amzn) as well. I think they're about 6 mm.

The smaller it is the more likely it's going to get stuck in your mouth while breathing. I think that's the logic behind the size.

I think it also has to do with the amount of gas you need to create and sustain an oxygen-free environment. But maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Schmopo]

I kinda almost accidentally ctb in the process...
I tried the soap test for leakages and I put on my EEBD with the gas on to see there was enough going through and no leakages (aside from underneath the tube of EEBD?). Suddenly I could see my room and next thing I was falling back and heard my door bang and took off the hood immediately. Accidental stupid suicide would be the most fitting way to go the way my life is lol.

Is there a way to safely test if the set up works without buying dummy head you would put the hood on?

 

[outrider567]

Well, I'm glad I did. I thought I'd tightened it secur



I think it also has to do with the amount of gas you need to create and sustain an oxygen-free environment. But maybe I'm wrong.

I'm glad you tested for leaks too--But in my case, with the EEBD Hood, I tested the setup on myself at 25 LPM, after just 5 breaths or so and then taking the Hood off, my Oxygen level dropped from 98 to 40! can't be any leaks with those sorts of results

 

[littleadonis]

I tested the setup on myself at 25 LPM, after just 5 breaths or so and then taking the Hood off

I thought you pass out immediately after like 2 breaths.

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

Is there a way to safely test if the set up works without buying dummy head you would put the hood on?

If you're using an exit bag, then you can put the bag on top of your head, open the valve to fill it up, then turn off the valve and pull the bag down. You should be out in 3 minutes or less. I realize this is not for everybody; I'm not a big fan of it either. Also, I don't think you can do this with an EEBD.

I thought you pass immediately after like 2 breaths.

In 'Uitweg' (Dignified Dying) by Boudewijn Chabot there are numbers of 7 persons who used nitrogen (numbers are roughly the same for helium): they all lost consciousness between 34 seconds and 1 minute 59 seconds. If you're not out after 3 minutes, then something's wrong (leaks, oxygen in helium, ...).

 

[outrider567]

I thought you pass immediately after like 2 breaths.

Never--As a matter of fact, both Das-Nichts(who passed out and was only saved by hitting his head)and I saw nothing happen after the first two breaths, we thought, 'Is this thing even working!?'--But that's just the delayed reaction in the Nitrogen reaching the fingertips

Well, I'm glad I did. I thought I'd tightened it secur



I think it also has to do with the amount of gas you need to create and sustain an oxygen-free environment. But maybe I'm wrong.

Let me add something else too regarding leaks--I have a 3500 Liter tank, huge--Although the PSI has dropped from 2200 to 1600 in 2.5 years, there is still enough Nitrogen in that tank to kill me 12 times over

If you're using an exit bag, then you can put the bag on top of your head, open the valve to fill it up, then turn off the valve and pull the bag down. You should be out in 3 minutes or less. I realize this is not for everybody; I'm not a big fan of it either. Also, I don't think you can do this with an EEBD.

In 'Uitweg' (Dignified Dying) by Boudewijn Chabot there are numbers of 7 persons who used nitrogen (numbers are roughly the same for helium): they all lost consciousness between 34 seconds and 1 minute 59 seconds. If you're not out after 3 minutes, then something's wrong (leaks, oxygen in helium, ...).

Good info there--Yes, after about 5 breaths or so, 30 seconds maybe, I was feeling maybe a bit lightheaded--I took the Hood off after my oximeter dropped to 77, it then continued to plummet to 40, a delayed reaction

 

[Intoxicated]

In 'Uitweg' (Dignified Dying) by Boudewijn Chabot there are numbers of 7 persons who used nitrogen (numbers are roughly the same for helium): they all lost consciousness between 34 seconds and 1 minute 59 seconds. If you're not out after 3 minutes, then something's wrong (leaks, oxygen in helium, ...).

1 minute 59 seconds is too long, it's a sign that something's wrong with the setup or with breathing. In case of hyperventilation with nitrogen, loss of consciousness may happen in just 17-20 seconds

The effect of brief profound hypoxia upon the arterial and venous oxygen tensions in man - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If you breathe normally, the time before LOC probably increases (in relation to the one that can be achieved with overbreathing), but not too much. If fainting doesn't happen in 1 minute, I'd be suspicious about the setup.

 

[littleadonis]

I have a 3500 Liter tank, huge

Yeah the one I ordered is 3000L (10L@300bar) lol. It was one of the cheapest I could find.

 

[devils~advocate]

Method Tutorial - Graphical w parts lists etc

I am in the process of writing a visual guide (hopefully in pdf format or other) for these inert gas methods.
I have graphical images for various set-ups etc.

But needing someone(s) to help with reviewing these or procuring more images for various set ups.

I have set ups for USA connections and parts....nothing at the moment for UK or EU...this also where I need input.

I don't want to unload this on the general forum with inaccurate information. So will need someone to help who will not release it prematurely.

PM me if interested.

 

[littleadonis]

I don't want to unload this on the general forum with inaccurate information. So will need someone to help who will not release it prematurely.

Brother, the PPH has been revised a number of times. Science in general is being constantly revised due to past mistakes. That's just how information in general works. It's unlikely that you will provide an immaculate piece of work that will never be refuted in the future. You should just openly discuss what you have but be clear about how certain/uncertain you are of some things.

I have set ups for USA connections and parts....nothing at the moment for UK or EU...this also where I need input.

I'm from the UK so I can talk from that perspective. After talking to welders, I was told that argon regulators are created for more precise flowrates whereas nitrogen regulators are created for adjustable cylinder pressure and no care for flowrate due to the different common use cases of each gas. So I've actually bought a nitrogen cylinder but an argon regulator which I'm picking up tomorrow so you can ask me about it then if you want. There are also such things as dual stage regulators which are specifically designed for precise constant flowrates. The usual single stage regulator is not necessarily designed for that and is usually more focused on maintaining the cylinder pressure. Actually, everything I've said here is universally applicable, not just for the UK.

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

1 minute 59 seconds is too long, it's a sign that something's wrong with the setup or with breathing. In case of hyperventilation with nitrogen, loss of consciousness may happen in just 17-20 seconds

FYI all 7 people died; no pulse at the neck occurred between 7:25 and 16:30. The person who lost consciousness after 1 minute 59 died within 8:56. The quickest loss of consciousness was after 34 seconds. It just shows it's not the same for everyone.

So what your saying is not true. Chabot states for helium and nitrogen, loss of consciousness:
- 30 seconds if it's fast
- 1,5 minutes if it's slow
- not out after 3 minutes then there's something wrong

Also, hyperventilating isn't really necessary.

 

[littleadonis]

1 minute 59 seconds is too long, it's a sign that something's wrong with the setup or with breathing. In case of hyperventilation with nitrogen, loss of consciousness may happen in just 17-20 seconds

The study you cited said the flowrate was 80lpm though. It's also a different method of delivery. They aren't using a plastic bag.

 

[Intoxicated]

FYI all 7 people died; no pulse at the neck occurred between 7:25 and 16:30. The person who lost consciousness after 1 minute 59 died within 8:56. The quickest loss of consciousness was after 34 seconds. It just shows it's not the same for everyone.

It doesn't show that the difference is determined by physiological properties of the subject, since the time to LOC highly depends on the technique of breathing. Hyperventilation with pure inert gas gives you the quickest onset and the lowest possible time, while breath holding (implying a lack of ventilation) gives you the largest possible time to LOC (that can be 4 minutes or more).

It's possible to imagine lots of intermediate conditions between hyperventilation with inert gas and the absence of ventilation. The protocols for exit bags described in PPH/PPeH suggest that you exhale as much air as possible prior to putting the bag over the head, then make a deep inhale when the head is placed inside the bag. If you skip these steps, you delay the onset in relation to the lowest time achievable with hyperventilation. If you do short rare breaths in addition to this, you delay the onset even more, so those monstrous 1:59 could be achieved without having some extraordinary physiological properties.

If you minimize the amount of air prior to breathing with inert gas as suggested and don't slow down your breathing too much afterwards, 30 - 60 seconds before LOC would look reasonable. But 1.5 minutes or more would look weirdly.

Also, hyperventilating isn't really necessary.

It's unnecessary, but the time to LOC measured with hyperventilation can give us some interesting data regarding how fast unconsciousness can be achieved, and it's possible to estimate approximate time to LOC depending on how far the actually used technique is from the fastest method.

 

[littleadonis]

Guys, you cannot buy high purity inert gas in the UK. It's become a controlled substance due to ctb apparently. You have to be able to demonstrate that you're using it for business purposes. Wtf am I going to fucking do?

 

[ramon]

Guys, you cannot buy high purity inert gas in the UK. It's become a controlled substance due to ctb apparently. You have to be able to demonstrate that you're using it for business purposes. Wtf am I going to fucking do?

What's your opinion on other (impossible to control) methods such as full hanging, partial hanging, or night-night?

My country's government does not impose those kinds of restrictions your government does, but should I (somehow) get denied the right to purchase inert gas, I'd turn to the methods I mentioned before.

How about moving to another European country that doesn't regulate inert gas like the UK does? If you have the money to buy the equipment required to do what you want to do, then I'd dare to say you have additional resources to buy a train/plane ticket and reserve a hotel room on those countries.

 

[Intoxicated]

If you're ready to consider unpopular methods of gas asphyxiation (including those which do not rely on maintaining a constant gas flow), you can notice that CTB through asphyxiation is doable with non-inert gases like nitrous oxide, R-134a, R-152a, propane, butane, and others.