Does anyone have experience with ECT?

[perdredenord]

I have undergone two cycles of rTMS sessions, I have done ketamine, I have been on 26 different medications last time I counted... and nothing helps me at all. The ketamine appeared to a bit, but I absolutely cannot afford to keep it up as often as I would need to for it to be sufficient. I am absolutely terrified of ECT, but... it may be my last hope. I'm looking for anyone who has undergone this sort of treatment.

 

[Sherri]

One of my shrinks wanted to try those, but besides being expensive he sad that it can cause me amnesia. So I never tried it cause of that.

 

[perdredenord]

One of my shrinks wanted to try those, but besides being expensive he sad that it can cause me amnesia. So I never tried it cause of that.

That's one of the parts of it that terrifies me. It has the potential to erase chunks of memory.... but... maybe if I forget things I'd be better...

 

[Sherri]

That's one of the parts of it that terrifies me. It has the potential to erase chunks of memory.... but... maybe if I forget things I'd be better...

Yes that's what he told me in medical terms of course.

 

[virginiawoolf86]

I was considering trying this. I brought it up and was told some version of this where I would be confused and disoriented.

Sorry that I don't have advice. I was also offered ketamine treatments, but I don't think that would treat my problem.

 

[perdredenord]

I was considering trying this. I brought it up and was told some version of this where I would be confused and disoriented.

Sorry that I don't have advice. I was also offered ketamine treatments, but I don't think that would treat my problem.

Yeah, that sounds about right. Apparently you're not really functional for ~1-2 hrs after receiving a treatment... which, given the procedure, makes sense.

ketamine was bittersweet. It was the first time I remember not having active thoughts about ctb, and it lasted for about three weeks. Gosh... three whole weeks of not being hyper focused on my own death. But it doesn't last very long and each treatment is $400... and I need 6 of them to last the three weeks. :(

 

[kohaku]

One of my shrinks wanted to try those, but besides being expensive he sad that it can cause me amnesia. So I never tried it cause of that.

The amnesia it causes is temporary only.

 

[perdredenord]

The amnesia it causes is temporary only.

I did hear it can cause some permanent long- and short-term memory loss.

 

[kohaku]

I did hear it can cause some permanent long- and short-term memory loss.

Maybe so, but this study shows most of it is temporary.

Retrograde amnesia after electroconvulsive therapy: a temporary effect? - PubMed

Our results are consistent with the possibility that ECT as currently practiced does not cause significant lasting retrograde amnesia, but that amnesia is mostly temporary and related to the period of impairment immediately following ECT.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

But, yet another shows that long-term(!) use can cause cognitive impairment.

Current Status of ECT—Study Shows Cognitive Side Effects Pose a Problem for Patients - Mental Health Industry Watchdog

A recent study published warns against the dangers of long-term electroshock treatment, which may cause significant cognitive side effects.

news.cchrint.org

It accepts the short-term use of electroconvulsive therapy (also known as electroshock or ECT), in urgent clinical situations, but warns against the dangers of long term treatment.

Therefore, it should be fine to try it once or twice, but it's not a solution.

 

[perdredenord]

Maybe so, but this study shows most of it is temporary.

Retrograde amnesia after electroconvulsive therapy: a temporary effect? - PubMed

Our results are consistent with the possibility that ECT as currently practiced does not cause significant lasting retrograde amnesia, but that amnesia is mostly temporary and related to the period of impairment immediately following ECT.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

But, yet another shows that long-term(!) use can cause cognitive impairment.

Current Status of ECT—Study Shows Cognitive Side Effects Pose a Problem for Patients - Mental Health Industry Watchdog

A recent study published warns against the dangers of long-term electroshock treatment, which may cause significant cognitive side effects.

news.cchrint.org

Therefore, it should be fine to try it once or twice, but it's not a solution.

Thank you so much for this information, ah. This is so incredibly helpful and I haven't read any of these.

unfortunately, if it's only temporary and I can only do it a handful of times before it becomes dangerous, then it's probably not worth the trauma of the actual procedure for me :( I don't know what else to do. I'll keep searching. Thank you so much

 

[dandan]

Yup, I've went to some sessions many years ago, I'm 38, maybe when I was 24? I was threatening to kill myself.... None medicine worked, I felt useless, I asked to be ETC and my (now I know is a creepy) doctor was willing , my mother tells me I did not went to the full procedure, which was like 7 or 8 sessions, I only have a vague memory of it, yup, it fucks up memory , plus later in life I had two bumps in my head real bad which really hurt my memory too.

A friend's dad also had the same procedure and my friend says his father was never the same.

Before ETC I would try testosterone, gym and Dianabol, or weight lifting which is my current treatment. But hey it's only my experience, we are not the same.

My problem was solved or has been momentarily solved with these. I have a constant check-up every two months with my doctor which is urgent because I have insomnia so maybe somethings wrong somewhere ...

Just my two cents

 

[Isadeth]

I was referred for ect but they never contacted me back. It was due to medication resistant depression apparently, even though they want you on medication while undergoing it usually. @Brokenwithbpd had it extensively. She might be the person to ask. For me, I couldn't risk being one of those that suffered memory loss... even if it could be beneficial since I'd love to not remember some things. My career couldn't allow for the risk.

 

[perdredenord]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I really appreciate it. I think I'm going to just make plans and buy my ticket to ctb. I don't think it's worth more of my time. Thank you all so much though.

 

[Chupacabra 44]

Frankly, if the alternative is CTB, maybe the risk of some potential memory loss should not be the driving factor as to if one should pursue ECT, or not. Last I checked, CTB results in 100% memory loss.

If you have the time to keep fighting, prior to ECT, I would recommend additional interventions to see how you respond. @dandan has good suggestions above. In addition, I recommend drastic dietary interventions, which if you have any interest, I can suggest several. Many anecdotal stories online of those who have fully resolved serious mental health issues through drastic dietary interventions. In my case, I've been able to identify my triggers and to resolve many physical almients and some mental health issues through radical dietary experiments.

Also, have you tried intense cardio, like Tabata exercises? I can vouch for these personally as a huge mood elevator. In fact, in my case, these send me straight into mania.

 

[perdredenord]

Frankly, if the alternative is CTB, maybe the risk of some potential memory loss should not be the driving factor as to if one should pursue ECT, or not. Last I checked, CTB results in 100% memory loss.

If you have the time to keep fighting, prior to ECT, I would recommend additional interventions to see how you respond. @dandan has good suggestions above. In addition, I recommend drastic dietary interventions, which if you have any interest, I can suggest several. Many anecdotal stories online of those who have fully resolved serious mental health issues through drastic dietary interventions. In my case, I've been able to identify my triggers and to resolve many physical almients and some mental health issues through radical dietary experiments.

Also, have you tried intense cardio, like Tabata exercises? I can vouch for these personally as a huge mood elevator. In fact, in my case, these send me straight into mania.

Unfortunately, change in diet doesn't have much of a change on my mental state, though I am more likely to restrict to an extreme; I struggle with bulimia, and my currently antidepressant has made food so unappealing/nausea so constant that I have barely eaten food in the almost 6 weeks I've been on it. I have an appointment with my psychiatrist next week to speak to him about it and have been tapering myself off because of the effects, but I still have not been able to eat. But these feelings have been here for a decade. Exercise was the slightest bit helpful, but I'm at the point where I'm in so much pain that it's hard to do it for too long (plus the nausea as well sadly). I'm in a rough position and the possibility of ctb becoming more and more prominent is due to trying every possible avenue but nothing working. I promise I have tried every single thing that I've been offered. I swear.

 

[LittleJem]

ECT does have some efficacy - and I'm told modern ECT is much better than it used to be.

You are a good candidate for ECT as you have tried so many pills (I haven't tried enough pills to be given ECT).

Here is an article on it: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...try-Carrie-Fishers-beloved-shock-therapy.html

And here is another article with the stand out quote: 'Electroconvulsive therapy helps patients with their symptoms in more than 80% of cases – but its stigma means it may not be helping the people it could.'
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20180502-the-surprising-benefits-of-electroshock-therapy-or-ect

And here is another quote: 'or instance, a study by Wilkinson and colleagues published in Psychiatric Services in 2018 found that less than 1% of patients with treatment-resistant depression receive ECT, even though response rates are between 50% and 70% for such patients.' From this article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/...-electroconvulsive-therapy-one-patients-story

Other things that are worth trying before CTB:
- Ayahuasca
- Microdosing
- FMT (very odd but very promising)
- bigger doses of psychedelics - LSD/psiolcybin

 

[perdredenord]

ECT does have some efficacy - and I'm told modern ECT is much better than it used to be.

You are a good candidate for ECT as you have tried so many pills (I haven't tried enough pills to be given ECT).

Here is an article on it: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...try-Carrie-Fishers-beloved-shock-therapy.html

And here is another article with the stand out quote: 'Electroconvulsive therapy helps patients with their symptoms in more than 80% of cases – but its stigma means it may not be helping the people it could.'
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20180502-the-surprising-benefits-of-electroshock-therapy-or-ect

And here is another quote: 'or instance, a study by Wilkinson and colleagues published in Psychiatric Services in 2018 found that less than 1% of patients with treatment-resistant depression receive ECT, even though response rates are between 50% and 70% for such patients.' From this article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/...-electroconvulsive-therapy-one-patients-story

Other things that are worth trying before CTB:
- Ayahuasca
- Microdosing
- FMT (very odd but very promising)
- bigger doses of psychedelics - LSD/psiolcybin

What's FMT? That one I have not heard of yet. I am actually planning on taking LSD on Thursday to bring in the new year - I have done this previously and it does help for a while, helps me at least get my shit together momentarily - been more worried about psilocybin due to the more volatile nature/intensity of emotions on those types of trips. Will also look into ayahuasca, and have been interested in microdosing for a while, haven't considered it seriously due to concerns of properly doing my job

 

[LittleJem]

@pedredenord
the reason I am not entirely bedridden is one dose of 3 tabs of LSD. I was bedridden before that, and haven't been bedridden since (though I do also take St John's Wort and currently rTMS and in general weed. I'm not great. But I am not bedridden.). I wasn't cured after the big trip, but could just about function with help from weed/SJW and managed to return to work (I was off work because I was bedridden etc).

FMT is ahem Fecal Matter Transplant. It looks very promising both for depression and Bipolar disorder. The research is really interesting. For example, mice caught depression when given depressed fecal matter.

The issue with it is that I don't know how many treatments are needed for mental illness. I don't know if for example 6 is enough, or it needs to be longer term. I have no idea how to find a donor.

You can look into the research on bipolar and depression - I might have made a thread about it all here. This guy - his life was transformed by FMT. In his case, it was for gut issues and not for mental health, but if you look for the mental health research it is also there: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/boy-bear-dave-hosking-fecal-transplant-919384/
There is also a video about Dave Hosking. He is very down to earth about it - it obviously isn't pleasant treating yourself with FMT every day - as he has to - but for him it means he can function in his every day life, so it is worth it.

I was really grossed out by all of this at first. I am quite germ-phobic - but my depression is so bad even now it is less bad, that right now this is beginning to look like an amazing option. Just finding the right donor.

It's also good for autism.

 

[perdredenord]

R

@pedredenord
the reason I am not entirely bedridden is one dose of 3 tabs of LSD. I was bedridden before that, and haven't been bedridden since (though I do also take St John's Wort and currently rTMS and in general weed. I'm not great. But I am not bedridden.). I wasn't cured after the big trip, but could just about function with help from weed/SJW and managed to return to work (I was off work because I was bedridden etc).

FMT is ahem Fecal Matter Transplant. It looks very promising both for depression and Bipolar disorder. The research is really interesting. For example, mice caught depression when given depressed fecal matter.

The issue with it is that I don't know how many treatments are needed for mental illness. I don't know if for example 6 is enough, or it needs to be longer term. I have no idea how to find a donor.

You can look into the research on bipolar and depression - I might have made a thread about it all here. This guy - his life was transformed by FMT. In his case, it was for gut issues and not for mental health, but if you look for the mental health research it is also there: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/boy-bear-dave-hosking-fecal-transplant-919384/
There is also a video about Dave Hosking. He is very down to earth about it - it obviously isn't pleasant treating yourself with FMT every day - as he has to - but for him it means he can function in his every day life, so it is worth it.

I was really grossed out by all of this at first. I am quite germ-phobic - but my depression is so bad even now it is less bad, that right now this is beginning to look like an amazing option. Just finding the right donor.

It's also good for autism.

uuuuugh, rolling stone won't let me read articles without paying. So rude lol. That's absolutely fascinating. I'm gonna do some more research on this (as well as try to read those ect articles you posted). Thank you so much, new options always give me a glimmer of hope

 

[LittleJem]

Please share anything interesting you find. I definitely think there is hope in this. I mean also even for autism - I have undiagnosed autism wiht my depression. I will share on a separate thread anything else I find out too!
Also, ECT is worth trying. REading the articles also makes me think about it again. It is the medication I don't want to try, and I don't know how many I'd need to try before getting ECT! But maybe I need to just pretend to take some of thsoe medications!

 

[perdredenord]

God medications have been my worst nightmare, everything I take makes everything significantly worse

 

[LittleJem]

Here is one more thing I found on ECT - http://oxleas.nhs.uk/site-media/cms...sive_therapy_ECT_Information_Leaflet_2020.pdf

It's beginning to sound good.

What is having ECT like?

Homeland and other shows portray electroconvulsive therapy as barbaric – but that's simply not true, says one person who feels the treatment changed her life

www.theguardian.com

This person says 'it's the best thing that ever happened to me' about ECT. So some good reviews...
But there are some bad reviews too: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jan/23/anthonybrowne.theobserver

 

[LittleJem]

What's FMT? That one I have not heard of yet. I am actually planning on taking LSD on Thursday to bring in the new year - I have done this previously and it does help for a while, helps me at least get my shit together momentarily - been more worried about psilocybin due to the more volatile nature/intensity of emotions on those types of trips. Will also look into ayahuasca, and have been interested in microdosing for a while, haven't considered it seriously due to concerns of properly doing my job

Hey, how was your trip? Hope you had a good one

 

[LittleJem]

OP - have you tried St John's Wort if it's safe for you? Today it is helping me a lot again - I'm on 900 a day. I came off it, but back on it again. I had a few days of hell (and weeks of hell) so SJW does help

 

[Gnip]

I underwent 20 sessions of outpatient ECT in 2014 and another 20 in 2015 to no avail, even with the use of ketamine as a booster to efficacy. This took place AFTER I had read "Shock: The Healing Power of Electroconvulsive Therapy" by Kitty Dukakis and Larry Tye, and I became quite friendly and familiar with the staff who administered my treatments. (I was the first patient who had actually read that book who they had treated, a book many of them had not read, and I was well respected for that and clinical research I'd previously done on ECT. Mental health unit employees can be assholes to inpatients, but my outpatient ECT OR staffers were first rate and conducted themselves like the customer service professionals who I had hired to work for me.)

Several different psychiatrists administered the procedure. Most of them were male, but a number of them were female psychiatrists. We had some excellent conversations about ECT while I was undergoing preparations.

Concerning memory loss, ALL the male and female psychiatrists told me that amnesia was a problem for female patients but NOT male patients. Three of these psychiatrists had been practicing ECT since the 1960's. (I am male, and in fact my recall was never impaired in any way.)

Females worried about memory loss should avoid this treatment option until last. (In fact, if I was female, I probably would opt for Deep Brain Stimulation if rTMS failed, if I could bypass ECT entirely in getting to DBS.) However, females more worried about weight gain who are depressed might want to consider trying rTMS and then ECT before any medications, since rTMS and ECT cannot alter metabolism the way medications do.


Going in, I was warned that the duration of my depression may well have already rendered me treatment proof, but there was a theory that ECT might not only re-sensitize serotonin receptors but ALL receptors in the brain. However, this wasn't the case with me.

Best thing for me about ECT was going under anesthesia, the fleeting high I got as I succumbed. For me there was no downside except for the fact it didn't work. ECT also made anesthesia a routine experience for me.

Vortioxetine was the next treatment failure for me after ECT, and that was the seventh of the eight classes of antidepressants I have failed on. (I have never been on a monoamine oxidase inhibitor, nor am I obligated to for qualifying to undergo psychiatrist administered euthanasia when it is legalized and implemented. I have been ruled out as a candidate for DBS, and am a weak candidate for rTMS with ECT having failed completely. I am willing to give rTMS a fair chance to fail decisively, but ECT was my final home run swing for the rafters attempt.)

Honestly, if somebody else here knows more about undergoing ECT than I do, I'd love to be made aware of that, but I did the research BEFORE undergoing ECT, so I had some context in advance. (Knowing more about undergoing ECT than me would require ECT having succeeded, in which case that person would probably not have an account here. Incidentally, patients with diseases like terminal cancer have successfully undergone ECT, and ECT has indeed been used to alleviate depression from chronic pain and fatigue.)

One other thing is critical to the success of ECT. Positive expectations that it can help is not a placebo, but clinically verified indicator of chances for success. ECT is much less likely to work if the patient is being unwillingly subjected to it. Unlike many medications, ECT doesn't work well in spite of the patient. People who attempt suicide with massive single doses of fluoxetine have instantly gotten dramatically better. (One girl in the clinical literature with OCD attempted to CTB with 50,000 mg fluoxetine had all signs of her OCD disappear completely for six months.) ECT can't eradicate symptoms like that.


Yes, I am an advocate for ECT, but ONLY for consenting patients who have additionally signed off on understanding the risk of memory loss (especially critical for any females considering this modality). No, I do NOT believe trying ECT should be a requirement before a patient is allowed to undergo psychiatrist administered euthanasia.

Legally, if you want to undergo ECT, and are a consenting adult who has read literature like "Shock" by Dukakis and Tye, then your psychiatrist is probably obligated by law to grant you a referral to undergo the procedure.

 

[Gnip]

Please share anything interesting you find. I definitely think there is hope in this. I mean also even for autism - I have undiagnosed autism with my depression. I will share on a separate thread anything else I find out too!
Also, ECT is worth trying. Reading the articles also makes me think about it again. It is the medication I don't want to try, and I don't know how many I'd need to try before getting ECT! But maybe I need to just pretend to take some of those medications!

Yes, agreed completely, and I say this as somebody for whom ECT failed.

You should not need to try any medications before rTMS, ECT, or other alternatives to drugs. Pharmaceuticals can permanently alter and ruin one's metabolism (most usually resulting in life shortening and health ruining morbid obesity).

Nobody ever suffered massive weight gain rebound from rTMS, ECT, biofeedback (including EEQ Neurofeedback). cognitive behavioral therapy or other alternatives to drugs. Nobody has ever developed an addiction to drug free alternatives.

Do not permit any prescribers to act as dope pushers. Your right to refuse crack, amphetamines, Prozac, benzodiazepines, marihuana, heroine, LSD, Ambien, Effexor or any other substance before you are allowed to try rTMS or ECT is absolute, and you can fire charge any prescriber who balks with malpractice.

ECT was not available in my area in November 1996, and "Shock" by Dukakis and Tye was not published and available for reading until September 2007.

Today, in 2021, ECT would have been the very first treatment for addressing my major depressive disorder that I would have tried, but drug vendors and Big Pharma want psychiatrists to poison their patients with addictive medications first, for maximum drug profits.

What is available in your area may vary, but in a place like say, Florida, I'd avail myself of ready access to all modalities of biofeedback, rTMS and ECT before contemplating prescribed medications last.


By having failed on everything, I now qualify for psychiatrist administered euthanasia wherever it is legal and in practice, but along with my having nailed down full lifelong disability 19 years ago, that is the only advantage to my having done everything backwards (the only option I had in my backwards isolated rural area in 1996). If I was Dutch or Belgian, I'd have had myself euthanized before Sanctioned Suicide ever came into existence.

 

[dandan]

I have undergone two cycles of rTMS sessions, I have done ketamine, I have been on 26 different medications last time I counted... and nothing helps me at all. The ketamine appeared to a bit, but I absolutely cannot afford to keep it up as often as I would need to for it to be sufficient. I am absolutely terrified of ECT, but... it may be my last hope. I'm looking for anyone who has undergone this sort of treatment.

I'm sorry, I do understand and felt what you have had. Been through it myself, only testosterone has kept me un-depressed for year and a half now. Sorry to be where you are, where I've been. Sorry man, nothing helped me either, with N in my fridge I tried testosterone and Dianabol, now I've got a liver thingy to take care for, it's better than the depression I was going through.

 

[perdredenord]

I'm sorry, I do understand and felt what you have had. Been through it myself, only testosterone has kept me un-depressed for year and a half now. Sorry to be where you are, where I've been. Sorry man, nothing helped me either, with N in my fridge I tried testosterone and Dianabol, now I've got a liver thingy to take care for, it's better than the depression I was going through.

I found out two years ago I'm allergic to testosterone hahaha. It's a mess here... my body doesn't want to accept anything

 

[lost_soul83]

I did hear it can cause some permanent long- and short-term memory loss.

Yes it can cause permanent memory loss, from which I suffer as a result of ECT. I've gotten some of my memories back but not all. My suggestion to anyone that's thinking about trying ECT is to reconsider. Exhaust all your possible options before going through with ECT. In the end, having the treatments stopped me from killing myself but it never helped for very long and now I've still got big chunks of my memory missing and I haven't had a treatment in almost 10 years.

 

[perdredenord]

Yes it can cause permanent memory loss, from which I suffer as a result of ECT. I've gotten some of my memories back but not all. My suggestion to anyone that's thinking about trying ECT is to reconsider. Exhaust all your possible options before going through with ECT. In the end, having the treatments stopped me from killing myself but it never helped for very long and now I've still got big chunks of my memory missing and I haven't had a treatment in almost 10 years.

This is the part that scares me the most. I went to see my psychiatrist last week and mentioned ECT, and he lit UP, saying he thought it would work really well for me and blah blah blah... but reading over experiences, even a lot of the ones that said it helped said they'd had to stop due to the memory issues. My memory is already so, so bad... I'm scared that it would ruin me.