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TAW122

TAW122

Emissary of the right to die.
Aug 30, 2018
6,644
As we pro-choicers, we are no stranger towards seeing this obligatory message plastered just about everywhere and anywhere with regards to topics about death, mental health, and/or other contents. However, this is very insulting and presumptuous to those who are really determined to CTB because it lumps them all into the same category (in other words, treats them the same as those who impulsively or rashly chose to CTB without thinking it through). This couldn't be further from the truth because if anything, most of us pro-choicers, especially those who have been on SaSu and have deliberated on our decision for an extended period of time knows very well that we just want out. While it's possible that some people "may" change their mind, most who are at that point often don't and just want to be at peace, even if it means to CTB. Before I go on, I want to address the obligatory part. I know that most articles and media/content that talk about such things often have it and part of me believes that they sort of do that in order to shield themselves from liability but also as a secondary purpose, to virtue signal.

Anyways, so onto the main point of this article. Why do I have problem with seeing that obligatory (or even if not) statement in articles and such? The problem with that is the presumption of ignorance as well as invalidating and labeling CTB as some 'medical problem' to be cured rather than a free action. Of course, no one who is serious about CTB'ing would ever openly admit it especially if they know (almost) everyone will try to intervene to foil or obstruct their plans to exit suffering! A good analogy would be where an interrogator expects that a criminal would ever come out and announce their intentions to get caught, most people know that isn't the case and criminals wouldn't just willing sabotage and foil themselves! (Note: I don't condone criminals and their actions nor illegal activity, I'm simply drawing an analogy to clarify my point in more detail.)

Therefore when people claim "If you are having thoughts of CTB, call the three digit number!" or any other similar statements, it is just akin to saying to a suspect or criminal (or even anyone) to incriminate themselves! So imagine if someone said to would be suspects, criminals, or even innocent people "If you are having thoughts of doing something illegal or unlawful, report yourself to law enforcement!" Almost nobody (unless they purposely want to self-sabotage or get caught and get into (legal) trouble) would ever do such a thing! So in conclusion, that's how I see the statement of anti-choicers and pro-lifers trying to get those who are thinking about CTB to confess their intention or plans in order to intervene against the pro-choicers who just want others to mind their own business and not meddle with their bodily autonomy! So this is why seeing and hearing such a statement is rather just insulting and I compared it to how it was like getting someone to incriminate or otherwise say something that could be used against them, even if it isn't in the arena of the legal system. (Note: I used the word incriminate, but in this case, I'm referring to statements that if someone admits they are thinking of CTB or CTB ideation, it could be used against them, meaning they could end up incurring unwanted treatment, possibly temporary loss of liberty (depending on situation), and other negative impacts on their life.) While others may justify it as a necessary evil (most anti-choicers and pro-lifers), that's another article all together and I won't get into that here since this article/vent was mostly about the obligatory, annoying virtue signaling statement that we see plastered just about everywhere.
 
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A

Aplev

Member
Oct 16, 2021
72
My first thought/feeling is "Yeah, it doesn't make any sense".

When I think about it more logically though, they play with your mind, as sadistic or crazy as that may sound. There's this colective idea that "crime is bad and if you are found doing anything of the sort, you will be punished", so if anyone says "If you are having thoughts of doing something illegal or unlawful, report yourself to law enforcement!", nobody will likely do anything because of this colective idea. The same is not true for "If you are having suicidal thoughts, call the three digit number!", because the colective idea is different: "if I call for help, they might help me and I might not have to try anything". This means that some people who are determined won't do anything, but those who are on doubt will and actually do call these numbers. In short, they do it because it "works" (for a certain group of the population).

On the same reasoning, if they don't provide such number/statement, people could come and say "hey, why didn't you add this statement here, why didn't you try to help?", because the colective idea is that these things help. The same is not true in regards to crime where the colective agreement is that such statements wouldn't help at all.
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
7,960
Fair points. It would be more realistic if they tagged in a disclaimer to say mentioning a plan of action with regards to suicide could very well get you sectioned! So- by all means, ring the helpline but then, maybe downplay the suicide bit- the very reason you called in the first place... Same deal with therapists. Ridiculous but, still.

I know what you mean though. I agreed to be put in touch with a helpline to try and get the police to go away on the IC SN welfare checks. Basically make it (me) someone else's problem.

The woman I spoke to initially was nice but then, this other woman rang back and layed a bunch of guilt trips on me- 'Think of what it would do to your family.' Ok- I'll give her the benefit of the doubt- it's not like she knows me but I felt like saying: 'That's why I've limped through the past 34 years! Quit being so presumptious and manipulative!' I didn't say that though. I just wanted to get rid of her too. But yeah, she was also like: 'Will you promise to call us before you take it?' Like- why would I do that? I've made the decision to do something. Why would I ring someone up who'll do everything in their power to stop me? Like- I'm not that much of an idiot! Obviously, I didn't say that either. I just said I knew their number if I felt like I needed them in future.

With regards to seeing hotlines everywhere though, I can't say it really bothers me. It's not like we're being forced to call them and I think- when people are as actively suicidal as a lot of members here are, we are aware of what could potentially happen if we raise too many red flags.

That said, from what I've heard, they don't seem all that great. That saddens me. If people do actually want help, I think that help ought to be good and available at least.
 
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TAW122

TAW122

Emissary of the right to die.
Aug 30, 2018
6,644
My first thought/feeling is "Yeah, it doesn't make any sense".

When I think about it more logically though, they play with your mind, as sadistic or crazy as that may sound. There's this colective idea that "crime is bad and if you are found doing anything of the sort, you will be punished", so if anyone says "If you are having thoughts of doing something illegal or unlawful, report yourself to law enforcement!", nobody will likely do anything because of this colective idea. The same is not true for "If you are having suicidal thoughts, call the three digit number!", because the colective idea is different: "if I call for help, they might help me and I might not have to try anything". This means that some people who are determined won't do anything, but those who are on doubt will and actually do call these numbers. In short, they do it because it "works" (for a certain group of the population).

On the same reasoning, if they don't provide such number/statement, people could come and say "hey, why didn't you add this statement here, why didn't you try to help?", because the colective idea is that these things help. The same is not true in regards to crime where the colective agreement is that such statements wouldn't help at all.
That's actually a very good point! When you mentioned the comparison between two distinct collective ideas of two separate occasions, it made sense. Of course, most people and the populace do not equate loss of liberty, (temporary) incarceration as well as a blemish on one's personal/background record (which will affect their freedoms and civil liberties), as well as debt (medical bills and unwanted bills) to punishment even thought it is, but just under the medical/psychiatric/healthcare system, which is similar to the legal/justice system in terms of punishment and restriction of civil liberties.

Additionally, yes you are correct that people who put these obligatory numbers often do so in a sense to show they care even though they don't (virtue signaling) and also to avoid being criticized for being callous.

Fair points. It would be more realistic if they tagged in a disclaimer to say mentioning a plan of action with regards to suicide could very well get you sectioned! So- by all means, ring the helpline but then, maybe downplay the suicide bit- the very reason you called in the first place... Same deal with therapists. Ridiculous but, still.

I know what you mean though. I agreed to be put in touch with a helpline to try and get the police to go away on the IC SN welfare checks. Basically make it (me) someone else's problem.

The woman I spoke to initially was nice but then, this other woman rang back and layed a bunch of guilt trips on me- 'Think of what it would do to your family.' Ok- I'll give her the benefit of the doubt- it's not like she knows me but I felt like saying: 'That's why I've limped through the past 34 years! Quit being so presumptious and manipulative!' I didn't say that though. I just wanted to get rid of her too. But yeah, she was also like: 'Will you promise to call us before you take it?' Like- why would I do that? I've made the decision to do something. Why would I ring someone up who'll do everything in their power to stop me? Like- I'm not that much of an idiot! Obviously, I didn't say that either. I just said I knew their number if I felt like I needed them in future.

With regards to seeing hotlines everywhere though, I can't say it really bothers me. It's not like we're being forced to call them and I think- when people are as actively suicidal as a lot of members here are, we are aware of what could potentially happen if we raise too many red flags.

That said, from what I've heard, they don't seem all that great. That saddens me. If people do actually want help, I think that help ought to be good and available at least.
Thanks and I fully agree that there should be some disclaimer or warning like "you may be sectioned/hospitalized against your will if it is found that you are at risk of imminent harm to yourself or others", and assuming such a statement is added, I could assure this would give pause to people who otherwise don't understand or know the risks of calling or reaching out to those services.

From your experience, I would say you made the right decision and it's not because these mental health professionals or healthcare providers deserve courtesy, but it's to reassure them and for them to tick off some boxes so that way they don't deem you an imminent threat to yourself and also for them to cover themselves from legal liability. It's certainly awful how these people belittle, play dumb, treat us like children and people who don't know what they want. I hope they at least leave you in peace in the future and not meddle or try to probe into your life anymore...

Finally, yes, for most of us here, we more/less already made up our minds and the last thing we want is some meddler, moral busybody to try to ruin our plans and efforts to escape suffering. Indeed, we would not call such numbers or hotlines because we know what could happen if we do. I do agree that if help is provided is should be voluntary and not forced, in fact, even forced help does more harm in the long run (sure, it may have prevented someone from acting out in the short term, but the long term damage is there and they are even more inclined to CTB when they otherwise wouldn't).
 
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AlexYaBoy

AlexYaBoy

The Lord of Dribblers
Mar 11, 2024
113
This is too massive problem for any government to handle.

They don't know how to actually stop anybody from suiciding. They can't even address any of the fundamental issues.

Most suicides are impulsive, though, and if you experience a thought of self-harm, it's probably better to stand around a hospital doing nothing, than it is to die.

Same reason as to why they tell you to untie ropes and place it somewhere high enough to be an annoyance to you, when you call a helpline.

Having access to a method is concerning.

Having that method readily available?

You're much more likely to die. That's why they enquire as to whether or not you have a method.

Telling people that you have a method in mind, such as hanging, is bad.

Having a rope nearby? Even worse.

Having that rope tied off? That's a no-no, to anybody who can try to help, mostly emergency services and helplines.

Hanging, for example.

If you have a rope, a helpline will tell you to untie it, because all that it takes is a single impulse, and strong impulses can last for quite some time.

Long enough to kill you.

TL;DR:

Nobody knows how to help and, for those who try to help, it's only a short-term solution. Also, the government is slightly better than useless. They can't save everybody.
 
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EvisceratedJester

EvisceratedJester

|| What Else Could I Be But a Jester ||
Oct 21, 2023
1,685
POV: You are about to ctb but you decide to call a suicide hotline first
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There isn't much evidence showing that suicide prevention hotlines are even good at their job. There is a lack of high-quality data supporting the effectiveness of these hotlines, so I don't get why people bother with posting them all over the place. Especially since there is a huge risk of them contacting the police and having them come over, which many have described as being traumatizing. To add insult to injury, this makes suicide hotlines even more dangerous and less accessible to racialized and queer individuals, who are at higher risk of being brutalized by the police.
 
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karmaisabitch

karmaisabitch

Mage
Mar 25, 2024
570
Once you're suicidal nothin
POV: You are about to ctb but you decide to call a suicide hotline first
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There isn't much evidence showing that suicide prevention hotlines are even good at their job. There is a lack of high-quality data supporting the effectiveness of these hotlines, so I don't get why people bother with posting them all over the place. Especially since there is a huge risk of them contacting the police and having them come over, which many have described as being traumatizing. To add insult to injury, this makes suicide hotlines even more dangerous and less accessible to racialized and queer individuals, who are at higher risk of being brutalized by the police.
lol 😂
 
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