Court rules that father's love/concerns about daughter "do not give him the right to keep her alive against her wishes"

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-maid-father-daughter-court-injunction-judicial-review-decision-1.7154794

Just read this article earlier today, where a father in Canada tried to block his adult daughter's access to euthanasia because she is autistic and he believes her to be "generally healthy" despite the woman having a host of physical health problems according to court documents.

The daughter's health issues have not been elucidates by laboratory and imaging tests or other diagnostics, so it is likely there are no treatment options that doctors would have been able to offer her. The only official diagnoses she has are ADHD and autism which the father is using as a justification to say that she is vulnerable and doesn't have the capacity to consent to MAID.

Nonetheless, the court has ruled in favor of the daughter's bodily autonomy, allowing her to move forward with MAID. This was quite a fascinating read, as this is the first time I've seen a lawyer/legal professional openly state that a person's right to self-determination and bodily autonomy in the context of assisted dying usurps the concerns of relatives and any reservations they would have about the procedure.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Canada looking pretty based ngl

 

[sserafim]

If only America could be more like Canada

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Well, of course. They have to because of section 7 of Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Was going to post about this, as I live in Canada. Good to see this precedent being set, although the woman had to wait longer to received MAID as a result. I'm sure there will be no shortage of parents trying to stop their adult children from availing themselves of MAID once it's expanded.

 

[Camper]

Horseshoe theory is real. This is just eugenics under left-wing pretenses.

 

[sserafim]

Horseshoe theory is real. This is just eugenics under left-wing pretenses.

Wdym

 

[Camper]

Wdym

Your "right to self-determination" should not be regulated by the State. It is guaranteed that they have nefarious reasons, and this specific case further proves it. It is not a coincidence that this woman is autistic.

 

[clown_17]

Your "right to self-determination" should not be regulated by the State. It is guaranteed that they have nefarious reasons, and this specific case further proves it. It is not a coincidence that this woman is autistic.

I would typically agree that MAID is iffy due to the governments input being involved in cases relating to disabled peoples deaths. However, as long as peaceful methods such as SN and N are essentially illegal our this country (cops showed up to my house when I ordered SN), MAID may be the only tolerable way to CTB for some and they deserve their freedom too

 

[Archness]

Your "right to self-determination" should not be regulated by the State. It is guaranteed that they have nefarious reasons, and this specific case further proves it. It is not a coincidence that this woman is autistic.

Well a win is a win, rip.

I agree that a state's stance on physician-assisted suicide and suicide in general is largely just a factor of how much they can benefit. But honestly, if they're gonna make everything terrible and only give gaslighting as a solution, I could appreciate getting a way out.

It's kinda weird that the father's outright denying his daughter's health conditions to bar her from MAID and saying she's just being taken advantage of. Couldn't you... talk to her? make things better? actually help?

Your "right to self-determination" should not be regulated by the State.

I would typically agree that MAID is iffy due to the gob's input being involved. However, as long as peaceful methods such as SN and N are essentially illegal our this country (cops showed up to my house when I ordered SN), MAID may be the only tolerable way to CTB for some and they deserve their freedom too

My ideal is that the state wouldn't get so involved and act like a second parent, constantly having health professionals ask me if I'm suicidal, outright putting me on a watchlist and putting on restrictions... posibly forever. I also wouldn't want state-sanctioned programs like MAID to be made, as it's really for penshioners, veterans, and other people putting a strain on state rescorcess. But @clown_17 is right.

 

[sserafim]

Your "right to self-determination" should not be regulated by the State. It is guaranteed that they have nefarious reasons, and this specific case further proves it. It is not a coincidence that this woman is autistic.

What if the daughter *wants* to die? It's not a coincidence that this woman is autistic because autism makes you a bad fit for this world and the world a bad fit for you. I have Asperger's aka autism level 1 so I know firsthand. If the state had nefarious reasons, they would kill off all disabled people, but they don't because they believe that all life is sacred. This is a landmark case and progress in the right to die.

 

[Camper]

What if the daughter wanted to die?

The government shouldn't be involved either way.

 

[sserafim]

The government shouldn't be involved either way.

Why not? I don't like the government getting involved in things either, but with the current state of things, MAiD is difficult to get approved for. The right to die is heavily restricted, and one is not allowed a guaranteed and peaceful death.

I would typically agree that MAID is iffy due to the governments input being involved in cases relating to disabled peoples deaths. However, as long as peaceful methods such as SN and N are essentially illegal our this country (cops showed up to my house when I ordered SN), MAID may be the only tolerable way to CTB for some and they deserve their freedom too

Wdym by "MAID is iffy due to the governments input being involved in cases relating to disabled peoples deaths?"

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

The government shouldn't be involved either way.

I would agree with this but the reality is that the government is involved no matter how we slice it.

The government and legislative powers are who decide to create restrictions on chemicals and substances, who put laws into place to section/detain people in wards after a suicide attempt or any suicidal intent, and regulate the use of police to be dispatched in this manner. In the vast majority of countries, it is not possible to have a peaceful end without programs like MAID because the government has made the means to do so inaccessible.

Strict suicide prevention at all costs measures and personal freedom/bodily autonomy are not compatible, and this is why MAID exists, for the quiet part they won't say out loud. That one may have a right to end their life, but only in very specific circumstances, and it is going to be gatekept. Originally, this is why these programs only accept terminally ill individuals who no longer have the ability to carry out the act themselves, then it gradually becomes more open to those with non-terminal conditions.

In this case, three different physicians had to agree that the woman had a valid argument to access MAID. One of them said no, and another physician had to be brought in as the tiebreaker. So it was more a case of- does a third party have the ability to block one's access to MAID if they think the process has been carried out inappropriately. In the end, doctors and nurses are the ones who get to decide who is allowed to access euthanasia, but this was a rare case where it went to court and the judge had to weigh in.

It doesn't mention in this specific article, but the daughter has a different health problem unrelated to ADHD and autism that she doesn't want her father to know about and has used her right to privacy to block him from accessing her medical records. This is important to note because she is not being allowed MAID due to autism or ADHD like the headline suggests, it is a seperate issue entirely that allowed her to gain approval. It would be illegal under the current statures in Canada for her to access euthanasia for what are considered solely "mental" conditions.

The daughter is quite determined though, if she will go to court against her father over it. If she did not truly want the option or felt influenced by others, I am not sure she would endure months of legal battles for the right to end her life. In an ideal world, yes, the government would not be involved, but in every country I have ever lived in (not Canada so I'm not sure how different it is there) the government has the right to section you in the court of law if you're deemed a danger to yourself, and law enforcement will take any methods from you if they suspect you have them, so the government is already interfering in the opposite direction.

I'm autistic and I don't see why people think this condition is an invalid reason to want a peaceful exit from this world. Autistic people have high rates of suicide, unemployment, and comorbid health conditions, and our issues are consistently not taken seriously because people think it is a gift instead of a disability.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I just think it's sad that her Dad would actually go against her in court about this. Presumably the medical professionals think she has competency to be able to make the decision. Imagine being 27- I wouldn't say that was a young adult for a start- she's old enough to be a parent herself. Having the guts to tell your parents that you've had enough and them saying they are going to take it to court! She must be suffering badly to want to end it. Why wouldn't they care about that?

I know I shouldn't be judging because I don't know them. But- her Dad saying:

"He says that she is generally healthy and believes that her physical symptoms, to the extent that she has any, result from undiagnosed psychological conditions."

suggests to me that he's simply ignoring things he has decided are psychosomatic. What difference does that make if the doctors can't cure her? And if they aren't diagnosed- then- get them diagnosed! What is she supposed to do? Ignore her worries/pain and they'll just go away? But- he wouldn't be able to ignore the grief he'd experience if his daughter died presumably? Grief is psychosomatic too. If people can't be cured and they tell you they're suffering- what's the answer then? Let them suffer?!!

I'm glad for her that she got her wish. I just hope that she can depart on good terms with her Dad. Surely, it's going to be worse all round if they are fighting right up till the end.

I wonder if any of our parents would act like this... That's inspired me to pose it as a question in a new thread. Hope you don't mind @KuriGohan&Kamehameha .

 

[doneforlife]

Ok. I have a doubt here. I know this is a pro choice platform, but I want people who are against individual autonomy involving self termination to reply.

Whenever I hear such cases , it seems like the "patient" (for lack of a better word) has access to never ending resources? For instance, when someone says they should try all medications , I keep thinking how would they fund it ? Should they be working during such distress periods ? There would be other bills to pay as well ? The severe restrictions in place seem good when you are rich , have enough support system (friends and family) to look after you. But the same restrictions become draconian when you are all alone in this whole wide world, working a job , and struggling in parallel. Some corporates may even fire you sighting incompetency. Does these laws really help the person or push them more towards the final destination?

I would agree with this but the reality is that the government is involved no matter how we slice it.

The government and legislative powers are who decide to create restrictions on chemicals and substances, who put laws into place to section/detain people in wards after a suicide attempt or any suicidal intent, and regulate the use of police to be dispatched in this manner. In the vast majority of countries, it is not possible to have a peaceful end without programs like MAID because the government has made the means to do so inaccessible.

Strict suicide prevention at all costs measures and personal freedom/bodily autonomy are not compatible, and this is why MAID exists, for the quiet part they won't say out loud. That one may have a right to end their life, but only in very specific circumstances, and it is going to be gatekept. Originally, this is why these programs only accept terminally ill individuals who no longer have the ability to carry out the act themselves, then it gradually becomes more open to those with non-terminal conditions.

In this case, three different physicians had to agree that the woman had a valid argument to access MAID. One of them said no, and another physician had to be brought in as the tiebreaker. So it was more a case of- does a third party have the ability to block one's access to MAID if they think the process has been carried out inappropriately. In the end, doctors and nurses are the ones who get to decide who is allowed to access euthanasia, but this was a rare case where it went to court and the judge had to weigh in.

It doesn't mention in this specific article, but the daughter has a different health problem unrelated to ADHD and autism that she doesn't want her father to know about and has used her right to privacy to block him from accessing her medical records. This is important to note because she is not being allowed MAID due to autism or ADHD like the headline suggests, it is a seperate issue entirely that allowed her to gain approval. It would be illegal under the current statures in Canada for her to access euthanasia for what are considered solely "mental" conditions.

The daughter is quite determined though, if she will go to court against her father over it. If she did not truly want the option or felt influenced by others, I am not sure she would endure months of legal battles for the right to end her life. In an ideal world, yes, the government would not be involved, but in every country I have ever lived in (not Canada so I'm not sure how different it is there) the government has the right to section you in the court of law if you're deemed a danger to yourself, and law enforcement will take any methods from you if they suspect you have them, so the government is already interfering in the opposite direction.

I'm autistic and I don't see why people think this condition is an invalid reason to want a peaceful exit from this world. Autistic people have high rates of suicide, unemployment, and comorbid health conditions, and our issues are consistently not taken seriously because people think it is a gift instead of a disability.

Humans are by default prejudiced. It runs at subconscious level. I think some kind of experiment was conducted to see if human prejudices and biases effect their decision making process. I guess it was experimented on a bunch of recruiters who had to hire a set of people. There are people (doctors) who don't believe in assisted death. How does one ensure they are keeping their biases aside ?

 

[LaVieEnRose]

I wish I could receive euthanasia for being autistic. It should be enough on its own to entitle people to that. Instead it is going to have to be extremely messy.

Is there any evidence that this woman was manipulated or pressured in any way? Disabled people act like if one disabled person chooses to avail themselves of euthanasia, then everyone is going to be carted off to the gas chambers. They're holding back progress.

 

[stilhavinightmares]

I wish I knew what qualified her for MAID.

And the dad thinking he should be in charge of her life rather than her? Vile.

 

[CozyTime]

A 27 year old needing permission from the state to die, a father who will be in despair and people in this forum celebrating it as a win.

The world is in a sad state for this to be reality. How I wish none had to suffer like us, like she is and how her father will.

Wishing them both the best.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I wish I could receive euthanasia for being autistic. It should be enough on its own to entitle people to that. Instead it is going to have to be extremely messy.

I wish I could receive euthanasia for that as well. I do think that autism itself should be a sufficient criteria for euthanasia but I don't think society thinks like that as, imo, they treat autism as if it's milder than what it actually is (probably because tons of media tend to portray autistic people as being hyper geniuses who only have social related issues). I know that, if I were to be the one asking for euthanasia instead of that 27 year old woman, I'd be rejected as they'd see me as "high functioning" enough to not require euthanasia. They'd also probably just attribute my issues to laziness and suggest I work harder.

Autism is absolutely awful to have and I can't even function due to it. I'm just curious as to how severe that 27 year old woman's autism was for her to be eligible. It must have been on the "lower functioning" end for sure

 

[PolishPanda46]

I feel bad for the dad tho

 

[astonishedturnip]

I feel bad for the dad tho

Me too tbh. A lot of comments on other sites are shitting on the dad, but when you're a loving parent, you do absolutely anything to keep your child alive. Having to read headline after headline of big gov telling you to kick rocks because your opinion on their health doesn't matter, after spending their whole life taking care of their health without big gov giving af about either of you, must hurt.

This isn't to say that a loved one's feelings should trump your own desire to CTB, and self-determination absolutely is a net good, and we don't know her full medical profile -- but no parent is thrilled about burying their child.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Me too tbh. A lot of comments on other sites are shitting on the dad, but when you're a loving parent, you do absolutely anything to keep your child alive. Having to read headline after headline of big gov telling you to kick rocks because your opinion on their health doesn't matter, after spending their whole life taking care of their health without big gov giving af about either of you, must hurt.

This isn't to say that a loved one's feelings should trump your own desire to CTB, and self-determination absolutely is a net good, and we don't know her full medical profile -- but no parent is thrilled about burying their child.

Unfortunately we live in a world where not every problem has neat and tidy solutions that leave everyone happy.

A 27 year old needing permission from the state to die, a father who will be in despair and people in this forum celebrating it as a win.

The world is in a sad state for this to be reality. How I wish none had to suffer like us, like she is and how her father will.

Wishing them both the best.

She doesn't need permission from the state to die. Just permission for them to facilitate it. I don't think she would have changed her attitude towards suicide had she been rejected. Those of us who are intimately acquainted with the challenges posed by her condition are happy that she has access to a peaceful way to end her suffering.

The only way to make sure no one suffers like her or her father suffer is to completely wipe out autism. Otherwise this will repeat itself in perpetuity. Just a whole lot merrier most of the time unless measures like what is described are more universally adopted.

 

[CozyTime]

Unfortunately we live in a world where not every problem has neat and tidy solutions that leave everyone happy.


She doesn't need permission from the state to die. Just permission for them to facilitate it. I don't think she would have changed her attitude towards suicide had she been rejected. Those of us who are intimately acquainted with the challenges posed by her condition are happy that she has access to a peaceful way to end her suffering.

The only way to make sure no one suffers like her or her father suffer is to completely wipe out autism. Otherwise this will repeat itself in perpetuity. Just a whole lot merrier most of the time unless measures like what is described are more universally adopted.

I didn't mean it as a pure permission to die rather that the fact the state has legal "ownership" over your life is insanity. Obviously her suicidal thoughts and intentions would remain I meant my comment more as pointing out the absurdity of the situation.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

I didn't mean it as a pure permission to die rather that the fact the state has legal "ownership" over your life is insanity. Obviously her suicidal thoughts and intentions would remain I meant my comment more as pointing out the absurdity of the situation.

They already gladly lock you up and deprive you of your autonomy for being suicidal. That's certainly anathema here but doesn't seem to be going anywhere anytime soon. I just see this as the other side of the same coin. Thankfully DIY suicide still exists as an option but I'd take the guaranteed peaceful and successful and open nature over principled objections in this case personally speaking.

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

Unfortunately we live in a world where not every problem has neat and tidy solutions that leave everyone happy.


She doesn't need permission from the state to die. Just permission for them to facilitate it. I don't think she would have changed her attitude towards suicide had she been rejected. Those of us who are intimately acquainted with the challenges posed by her condition are happy that she has access to a peaceful way to end her suffering.

The only way to make sure no one suffers like her or her father suffer is to completely wipe out autism. Otherwise this will repeat itself in perpetuity. Just a whole lot merrier most of the time unless measures like what is described are more universally adopted.

One of the saddest parts about all of this is that she's going to spend her final months fighting in court against her father, rather than spending quality time with him in the moments that are left. If the world was more open to honest conversations about these difficult topics, there would be no winding legal battle in the first place most likely and father and daughter could come to a mutual understanding and respect of her decision.

Judging by what I have read in the other news articles, the daughter seems to feel invalidated by her father's choices of words and actions and will no longer share the details of her medical problems with him as he thinks her being autistic makes her vulnerable and unable to make a choice for herself.

Only the judge and legal team have access to the details of everything she has spoken to with doctors about, her father doesn't know fully to my knowledge. Which has to feel incredibly isolating for both of them, the father is about to lose his daughter but desperately wants to prevent it, and the daughter feels as if she can't confide in her father anymore- losing that sense of trust especially towards the end of life is heartbreaking.

From what the father has said, he thinks his daughter has not tried enough doctors and treatments yet, and in turn she has decided to keep her health issues private. Can't say I blame her, after experiencing similar things myself from well-meaning individuals who want nothing more than to see you keep on living and have hope that there's going to be some sort of treatment on the horizon, when the only person who truly knows your own experience is YOU and no one else can ever truly catch a glimpse of what your life is like, what you have to endure in the day to day, how many times you've had to face setbacks only to never reach any sort of recovery. It's just incredibly grim and undoubtedly tragic for everyone involved.

I can't remember the title of the video now, but I saw something the other day where a woman who knew she would die in the coming months hosted a living funeral where everyone she loved could get lasting moments of closure, leave no words unspoken, and come to grips with what was going to happen soon and the grief that will follow. I wish such a thing was more common, as well as more honest conversations about death in general, to remove this veil of great fear that enshrines the entire process.

But touching upon what we have been saying in this thread, I seriously don't think the cultural zeitgeist is going to shift as long as people have to beg for a right to a peaceful death- and in the vast majority of countries such a basic liberty does not even exist still even for the terminally ill.

It is dystopian that a place like this forum even has to exist in the first place, because in an ideal world no one would have to worry about being locked up or lambasted for thinking about leaving this world or having ownership over our bodies. Taking fate into one's own hands is still deeply taboo and extremely uncomfortable for most.

The general population does not seem ready for this conversation, nor are they willing to hear how awful life can be for us autistic individuals (now that the pendulum has swung towards depicting the savant stereotype and framing autistic people as misunderstood geniuses rather than acknowledging the actual struggles that we face as a marginalized and handicapped group). Every discussion around autism seems to involve, can you hold employment and make money to the detriment of everything else? Who cares if we are happy or not or functional in any other aspect of life, as long as more autistic people join the workforce!

 

[LaVieEnRose]

One of the saddest parts about all of this is that she's going to spend her final months fighting in court against her father, rather than spending quality time with him in the moments that are left. If the world was more open to honest conversations about these difficult topics, there would be no winding legal battle in the first place most likely and father and daughter could come to a mutual understanding and respect of her decision.

Judging by what I have read in the other news articles, the daughter seems to feel invalidated by her father's choices of words and actions and will no longer share the details of her medical problems with him as he thinks her being autistic makes her vulnerable and unable to make a choice for herself.

Only the judge and legal team have access to the details of everything she has spoken to with doctors about, her father doesn't know fully to my knowledge. Which has to feel incredibly isolating for both of them, the father is about to lose his daughter but desperately wants to prevent it, and the daughter feels as if she can't confide in her father anymore- losing that sense of trust especially towards the end of life is heartbreaking.

From what the father has said, he thinks his daughter has not tried enough doctors and treatments yet, and in turn she has decided to keep her health issues private. Can't say I blame her, after experiencing similar things myself from well-meaning individuals who want nothing more than to see you keep on living and have hope that there's going to be some sort of treatment on the horizon, when the only person who truly knows your own experience is YOU and no one else can ever truly catch a glimpse of what your life is like, what you have to endure in the day to day, how many times you've had to face setbacks only to never reach any sort of recovery. It's just incredibly grim and undoubtedly tragic for everyone involved.

I can't remember the title of the video now, but I saw something the other day where a woman who knew she would die in the coming months hosted a living funeral where everyone she loved could get lasting moments of closure, leave no words unspoken, and come to grips with what was going to happen soon and the grief that will follow. I wish such a thing was more common, as well as more honest conversations about death in general, to remove this veil of great fear that enshrines the entire process.

But touching upon what we have been saying in this thread, I seriously don't think the cultural zeitgeist is going to shift as long as people have to beg for a right to a peaceful death- and in the vast majority of countries such a basic liberty does not even exist still even for the terminally ill.

It is dystopian that a place like this forum even has to exist in the first place, because in an ideal world no one would have to worry about being locked up or lambasted for thinking about leaving this world or having ownership over our bodies. Taking fate into one's own hands is still deeply taboo and extremely uncomfortable for most.

The general population does not seem ready for this conversation, nor are they willing to hear how awful life can be for us autistic individuals (now that the pendulum has swung towards depicting the savant stereotype and framing autistic people as misunderstood geniuses rather than acknowledging the actual struggles that we face as a marginalized and handicapped group). Every discussion around autism seems to involve, can you hold employment and make money to the detriment of everything else? Who cares if we are happy or not or functional in any other aspect of life, as long as more autistic people join the workforce!

Maybe and hopefully the father will come around and relent.

Well, productivity and economic contribution are the sacred cows of Western society. Look at any mental health or disability organization's manifesto and you will see that they give full focus to how important it is to be a "productive member of society".

The suicide rate continues to rise and rise and rise and shows no sign of slowing down. It seems like it would be a good idea to give euthanasia and societal attitudes towards suicide the consideration that these topics deserve.