Method Carbon monoxide megathread

[cappuccinogirl]

Hi can anyone recommend how many disposable bbq would be needed for small room. And how much formic / sulphuric acid. Thanks

 

[406blue]

No. The Australian charcoal maths explanation showed 629 grams of charcoal was lethal in a 100m3 room.
A tent is less than 5m3 and 2lbs of charcoal is 907g so your already using about 60x that ratio.

100m3 is a massive space, are you sure about that? And over what period of time was it lethal etc.

 

[Shalev]

What do you think about lotus grill?

 

[406blue]

V curious about this method. Does anyone know if 1kg of lumpwood charcoal in a 6x8 garden shed is sufficient? Also some people saying hours, I've read elsewhere It can take minutes. Does anyone actually know the time it would take?

It depends i think on how well sealed the shed is. There is a Co megathread with more detail in here.

 

[cappuccinogirl]

It depends i think on how well sealed the shed is. There is a Co megathread with more detail in here.

Where do I find that thread then. Thanks

 

[406blue]

Where do I find that thread then. Thanks

This is it, there are 5 pages of comments and advice. Also, perhaps there may be postings about CO which weren't posted as part of the megathread, you'll have to search around.

 

[406blue]

100m3 is a massive space, are you sure about that? And over what period of time was it lethal etc.

I found the test results, We don't know what kind of charcoal and how they set up but if that's what they found then a kilo in 3 or 4 m3 is going to work if you practice and get the set up right.

 

[406blue]

I think the crucial elements are these, most of which have already been talked about.

Taking a benzo or/and a glass of preferred alcohol to relieve any stress a little, if that's an issue but not enough to confuse.

A kilo in a chimney for 30 minutes maximum. The ones in the lower half will be a furnace and the top layer going grey. It doesn't burn the coals evenly but it seems more even than normal ways of lighting coals. It does burn most of them very quickly and generates a huge amount of heat. As for type of charcoal opinion seems to be divided lump/briquettes.

Emptying them out into a steel bucket. In my experiment i put a few inches of quite large stones in first to keep some of the heat from underneath. A normal sized bucket will easily take this and a kilo of coals with room to spare. This also may stop the red hot coals from burning themselves off too quickly.as the core heat of the bucket will be lower.

Waiting for as long as it takes for the heat given off to become acceptable to place in the car. When i tried it was after an hour it was still pretty warm but much less so than when i tried before with no rocks in the bottom of the bucket. I'm convinced the rocks in the bottom helped dissipate the heat of the bucket as the coals were smouldering and allowed them to smoulder more slowly. During this time as it's cooling i will be taping up the car and boot joints with thick, sticky tape, what is called gaffer tape in the uk, apart from the entry point. And sticking a sign in the window danger CO do not enter etc and drinking a bit more i expect, not too much.

A cocktail of crushed up sleeping aids and benzos in a glass of vodka, which is a quite plain spirit and aids the toxicity of the drugs, to knock me out in 5 minutes for ten hours. Ten hours is probably way too long but it's also about the depth of sleep.

Then i'd put the bucket in the back of the car, on two bricks, perhaps with aluminium foil under the bricks if the bottom of the bucket feels like it still might be an issue, why not.

Putting them in and waiting for co to build up seems the poorer idea, because when you open the door, lots of it will be released and anyway you might get hit with enough it to make it uncomfortable. So the better idea to me seems to down the cocktail and get in right after you put the coals inside and be comfortable, given that the drugs will knock you out quicker than the slower build up of CO and with less risk of early stages of CO poisoning like nausea and headache.

There are lots of opinions and discussion about this method and this is trying to put something together that addresses issues people commonly ask about. Just my perspective and not necessarily advice to anyone else.

 

[406blue]

Now, my greatest fear in attempting this method is waking up brain damaged because there is not enough CO produced and retained. I still don't know which charcoal I should use: Kingsford Original briquettes, https://www.kingsford.com/products/original-charcoal/
Or I'll just buy unbranded chunks of lumpwood charcoal from a market. I've read of several who attempted using kings briquettes and failed, but there is one guy who did and isn't active here anymore. Can't tell if something else was wrong or it's the briqs producing insufficient CO. I don't have a CO meter, so I'll have to risk it without testing.

I found this somewhere, but the link has expired.

Conventional wisdom says lump burns hotter than briquets, but the folks at Cooks Illustrated claimed conventional wisdom to be wrong. They took two typical six quart chimneys and filled one with lump and one with briquets. They fitted two identical grills with seven digital thermometer probes each, and learned that by volume, not weight, and volume is how most of us measure charcoal, especially if we use a chimney, the two burned about the same for about 30 minutes, but after that the briquets held heat longer and the lump turned to ash faster.

We don't know if the lump produced more CO during its shorter life. On bags of charcoal there might be a reference to carbon content. I had one with 85 percent, the rest i assume is binding agent, which seems to fairly benign like starch or sugar. There are probably some additives as well to encourage burning.

 

[Missye]

You seem to have it sussed 406 blue. Wish you were in the UK!

 

[406blue]

You seem to have it sussed 406 blue. Wish you were in the UK!

Ha, yes!

But this method seems to succeed best with single person occupancy of the space. I rarely find an account where there were multiple fatalities in a single space, usually one dies and several survive but they tend to be accidents. There may have been one in Taiwan or Japan where several people all went together. I think it's a question of generating enough co and then not having it effectively diluted by having other sets of lungs in there.

 

[Missye]

I hope to be able to do this in my bathroom with three disposable bbqs.

 

[Missye]

Not feeling confident about chimney

 

[406blue]

Quite a few of the failed attempts seem to involve bringing the coals into the space when they were still smoking and very hot, however they went about lighting them. This has to be avoided at all costs. It gives off a lot of heat and smoke in the beginning which i think is not a good thing to start off in a house but outside. Reading and accumulating the ideas of the people in here and adapting them to one's personal circumstances is all you can do.

 

[406blue]

Not feeling confident about chimney

Here is a post by another user that might be useful to you.

I backed out of all attempts but one, my last attempt I laid on the floor of my shed with one disposable bbq smouldering for about 30 mins. I didn't feel any ill effects just slight light headedness when I left the shed.

It was definitely a rushed thing and I think the low quantity charcoal and cracks in the shed are why I failed. I knew my family would be home in some time so I just aborted. Most important thing I took away from the experience is that I can implement my method without panic, I recall feeling empty and despondent with no tears or strong emotion or thought either way and that's how I need to be to succeed.

 

[Missye]

Thanks. Yes will defo attempt to light them outside and wait until they are grey to bring them in.

 

[Nik]

PDF file about CO poisoning in tents.
http://www.kobalenko.com/images/expeditions/CO.pdf

 

[406blue]

PDF file about CO poisoning in tents.
http://www.kobalenko.com/images/expeditions/CO.pdf

Interesting, although the subject is about climbers using CO producing stoves and not charcoal. While there is data available of the equation space/mass of charcoal/time, there isn't regarding CO producing heaters for camping, not yet. Kerosene, propane, white gas stoves were all responsible for incidents and we don't know much about their data for this purpose. There's a lot of interesting stuff though as i used to a bit of climbing.

 

[406blue]

Thanks. Yes will defo attempt to light them outside and wait until they are grey to bring them in.

If you live in a building where there are other people around you, you have to be very careful not to affect them with the co. It can leak from where you are to someone elses space. In a detached house,chalet or shack, a caravan etc but you need to be the only person in the building and put a sign up warning anyone who comes in after.

 

[Mari]

I'd like to know if this could work in stead of a bucket for charcoal in tent:

 

[406blue]

I'd like to know if this could work in stead of a bucket for charcoal in tent:

Fine, as long as it holds a kilo of coals and you take the lid off and insulate it below with a pan of water and a couple of bricks.

 

[406blue]

Do you think it is necessary to load the chimney starter a second time and use twice as much charcoal?

Putting more charcoal in will up the ppm but also other factors like the heat produced in the space, which might be discomforting. It's a bit of a trade off.

 

[Dani Paradox]

Hey, this would actually be perfect to insulate my bucket with. Cool, thanks.

I'd like to know if this could work in stead of a bucket for charcoal in tent:

 

[Dani Paradox]

Putting more charcoal in will up the ppm but also other factors like the heat produced in the space, which might be discomforting. It's a bit of a trade off.

It will be very cold outside. I am hoping that will make me want to snuggle up in there. I think heat may be my only concern. I will make sure to wear very light clothing. And I will be freezing my ass off when I go inside the tent. Not sure how fast it will heat up in there, but if all goes well I will already be shit face obliterated piss drunk, so it shouldn't be long to pass out. I can't imagine the heat waking me up. Once your blood alcohol content reaches .40 you go out cold. If you somehow manage to get it to .50 you go in a coma. When I drink like that, NOTHING wakes me up. If you manage to somehow wake me up, I'm out cold again in maybe a minute.... I should be dead in less than two hours. You do bring up an interesting point.

 

[406blue]

It will be very cold outside. I am hoping that will make me want to snuggle up in there. I think heat may be my only concern. I will make sure to wear very light clothing. And I will be freezing my ass off when I go inside the tent. Not sure how fast it will heat up in there, but if all goes well I will already be shit face obliterated piss drunk, so it shouldn't be long to pass out. I can't imagine the heat waking me up. Once your blood alcohol content reaches .40 you go out cold. If you somehow manage to get it to .50 you go in a coma. When I drink like that, NOTHING wakes me up. If you manage to somehow wake me up, I'm out cold again in maybe a minute.... I should be dead in less than two hours. You do bring up an interesting point.

The whole thing is a trade off between amount of coals, size of space, temperature of the coals and the ambient temperature etc. I'm planning to get the coals in when they are not giving off very much heat, when i can place my hand 6 inches above the bucket and feel it's not burning me. The metal and glass construction of vehicles transfers the heat outside quite efficiently. I had the idea of putting some stones in the bottom of the bucket, to negate a furnace at the lower areas, allowing the coals to burn more slowly, also on bricks with water or and aluminium paper. There might also be a case for putting some aluminium foil across half of the top of the bucket, which will reduce upward heat and allow less oxygen in, increasing the CO. CO is emitted for a long time after this point of combustion, between 5 to 12 hours so they say but who really knows. At what ppm i can't say but over several hours in the space i have i think it's okay. Another poster here did a test that maxed out his 1000ppm meter pretty quickly, like in a minute and so 4/5000 doesn't seem unreasonable after half an hour. I plan on knocking myself out for at least 5 hours to try to make sure, preferably 10.

There was a case not long ago of a guy with a single disposable bbq in a little peugeot 306. They hold nothing like a kilo, more like 500g.

Night time temps here are about 10c at the moment. Charcoal emits a massive amount of heat at first and for quite a while after, it takes a long time to cool down to the point where you can put it in an enclosed space with no risk. I tend to think that instinctively we want it to be as hot as possible and see that it's 'generating' something.

In summary, i would say that if an accidental camper can die with a virtually cold set of coals still emitting CO, in summer, without paying any attention to taping up seams/flaps and heat output, when there is more than one person in the space and they have had just a glass or two of wine or completely sober.....then coals that are warm and properly insulated, when it's cooler outside, in a well sealed and prepared space and a single occupant smashed out on alcohol and benzos.... it just makes sense.

The only real way of doing proper testing is in a particular scenario with a 10000ppm meter, but i've seen enough to think that it's not necessary for me.

 

[Mori]

I failed with this method about a year ago with some bad consequences (I was pretty unstable at the time, and did not prepare adequately). Part of the problem I think was that I tried to do it in my bathroom, since I con't own a car or any other enclosed space.

Is a tent really a viable option? I have looked at tents on amazon but I find it hard to think they are air-tight enough. I'll keep reading this thread and other's posts, but any insight would be appreciated :)

 

[406blue]

I'm sorry to read about your experience. I haven't looked into tents very much i'm afraid, as car is my method. Tents worry me because we don't know the permeability with gas of the fabrics, whereas with glass and metal we do. On the other hand cars will always leak a bit in other ways, especially old ones with worn out seals on doors. That's why i'm taping up all the door joints with tape.

Tents and cars are not hermetically sealed and a certain amount of leakage is inevitable. Just that with a car, i have a fairly good idea where these points are and know that glass and metal are non permeable. Consult other posts about tents, there are quite a few. Sorry i can't help more. People do die in tents from CO, i just don't know what kind of tents they were. I assume that recent deaths were in recent tents in terms of design. I think i read in here that it has to be waterproof but many tents have a waterproof outer skin and an inner skin of mesh, where the outer waterproof layer doesn't make contact with the ground, which seems useless from this point of view.

 

[DreamFreedom]

I'd like to know roughly how long it takes to kill. I don't usually have much time home alone, so need to plan ahead. Cause I have no idea on time I need.
Example situation;
1kg lumpcoal in a small car.
1-2 hours? 4+ hours?

 

[Deutschv2]

Few question:
1. Technically, do you need to burn off the black stuff on the outside before going inside? Or could you burn it off inside? Ik it gives off smoke but I'm wondering hypothetically because I'm not sure if its carbon or not lol
2. If the coals crumble will they still produce CO? Assuming the conditions are alright
3. Why do you have to wait for the coals to cool off? Why not just bring them inside right after chimney starter? Ik they're hot but again hypothetical.
Thanks a ton everyone.

 

[Mari]

Fine, as long as it holds a kilo of coals and you take the lid off and insulate it below with a pan of water and a couple of bricks.

thank you!