Method Carbon monoxide megathread

[Joannf]

By the way, CO is highly explosive if mixed with oxygen or air. A source on chemistry site says: "If mixed with air in a proportion between 12 and 75% it is explosive".

I'm wondering, if its possible to do a test blast? You'd just go to the countryside, setup a tent, seal it, put as much pre-cooked charcoals as you can inside, and put a candle *high* above. Because CO is heavier than air, it will leak down and slowly displace the air. You might want to leave a small hole on the roof. Just wait outside for an hour or so.

In theory, if this 10-12% concentration is attainable, the tent will eventually explode. Giving you the fact that 12% is more than enough since even 1% is already lethal.

What do you think?

I think it's hard to put a candle HIGH above in any tent I have ever seen - put it on the floor and tell me what happens ;)

 

[Joannf]

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone has done any ppm testing that accounts for opening and closing the door to get inside the vehicle. I will be using a meter to see what the ppm level is before i get in. I can of course do some testing on the day but i am curious to see if the information is already out there.

Is it better to get inside with the coals and wait for the ppm to rise? In this scenario i would eventually lose consciousness from pills and alcohol (such as to avoid the effects of low exposure as it builds up).

Thanks in advance.

I think it's a good idea to use a small room in a house rather than a car or a tent, but if you use a car, get inside with the coal and stay there. Opening the door of such a small container will suck much of the contents out and replace them with air.

 

[Joannf]

dumb question maybe, but one of those disposable bbqs? Do they work?

It seems the public are all too unaware of the dangers of these disposable BBQs.

"They spew out carbon monoxide for 12 hours after they have been used and there have been numerous cases of people losing their lives or nearly losing their lives.

Are they talking about these little tin foil things you buy in supermarkets, with about 800 grams of charcoal briqs max ? It seems so... so that was enough for a guy in a van...

 

[Retched]

Forensic Science International
Volume 236, March 2014, Pages e19-e21
Case Report
Suicidal carbon monoxide poisoning using a gas-powered generator
Author links open overlay panelKatharinaBlässerMichaelBohnert
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.forsciint.2013.12.016Get rights and content

Abstract
Purpose
The presented case deals with an unusual suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning. In a car parked in a highway rest area, the body of a middle-aged man was found. In the open trunk of the car there was a gas-powered generator which was switched on, but no longer running. The tank was three quarters full. At autopsy, bright-red livores, cherry-pink fingernails, cherry-red blood and salmon-red skeletal musculature were found. According to the toxicological analysis performed during autopsy, the COHb content in the corpse blood was 68%.

Methods
To reconstruct the event, the emergency generator was started again in the man's car. By means of measuring probes placed in the interior of the car, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and oxygen were measured and recorded in a concentration–time curve; the concentration of cyanide was measured at the end of the experiment.

Results
The lower explosion limit of 500 ppm CO was reached after 30 s already. For technical reasons, no further values could be recorded. After about 14 min the engine started stuttering with approximately 14 vol.% of oxygen in the air, but continued to run at a lower speed until the experiment was stopped after 25 min. The final concentration of cyanide was 7.5 ppm.

Conclusion
In view of the rapid CO increase in the interior of the vehicle it is to be assumed that the victim lost consciousness very fast.

I read about this and thought, wow, what a good method. When I was researching heaters/generators though it seems like a lot of them turn off when oxygen levels are low. :/

 

[Joannf]

I tested the little round stoves everybody is saying are ideal for lighting up charcoals briqs and found them wanting. Now, I own a large fireplace with a cast iron heat retainer which I can use for comparisons, and I have been using diverse grates inside that on which I collected the briqs, to be ignited by a mix of those little paraffin/"eco"-sawdust cubes they sell as firelighters... ample of those underneath the entire space that the briqs take [about two inches above], needs about three parcels of 32 firelighters, and I filled the spaces with wood pellets - you know the stuff. The pellets will make sure the entire setup burns for about ten minutes rather than just five with the firelighters, so as to make sure that the briqs above start to really burn, ALL AT THE SAME TIME.
The paraffin cubes turned out to be of very unreliable quality, some are rather hard to ignite, [have to test them every time as each packet is different] so it's a good idea if you light this flammable square, under the grid with the briqs, at its four edges, put in an extra lit cube in the middle and then spray it all a bit with methanol so it starts up politically correct in an egalitarian, postmodern way - best AFTER you put the grate with the coals/briqs on top cause it gets hot fast. I get 5 kgs of briqs done like this equally in twenty minutes inside the fireplace, wait another 10 minutes to be sure, then shut off the chimney and open the glass door... zoom.
For comparison, the little metal stoves - you can fill them up with 2 - 3.5 kgs maybe and then you better make sure it really burns underneath... don't just rely on paper. I filled one up to tops and watched it, and it took real long, you could watch it CREEP up from below - I finally took off a layer of about two inches of briqs from the top because this was taking too long for my taste, at 45 minutes. Coals were still burning at the top at 55 minutes but *almost* grey when I put them onto the grill to watch them further. So they burned out on the grill within two, three minutes and glowed nicely and after 70 minutes, the first ones fell to ashes, after 80 minutes 2/3rds of them were gone...
What I'm saying is that when it takes 45 minutes to light up the top coals of the 3 kilos, the lower ones will have almost burned out and you really have only about 20 minutes max left to be sure of your CO effect. I think this may be the reason why so many people fail - If you need more than 2 kgs, the method is just NOT optimal. It's not like, uh, grilling a piece of meat... so what I would do is spread the coals/briqs out one high, or two max as described above and light them in a regular way from directly underneath.
I will personally use the fireplace with 5 kgs, the grill with 3, and I have 10 liters of acid that I'll mix in a metal jerry can in the bathroom [the metal ones can be closed hermetically], from which a 1" 5m garden hose leads to a 20 l plastic jerry can in the small living room with the fireplace (which is btw much too large for the room as such). The plastic jerry can is for filtration and holds a washing system consisting of rock wool mats with water and a layer of pulverized coal on top so as to take care of the acid fumes. I have about 40 cubic meters of air in the small living room and I gather this setup will suffice ;)

 

[Retched]

I tested the little round stoves everybody is saying are ideal for lighting up charcoals briqs and find them wanting. Now I own a large fireplace with a cast iron heat retainer which I can use for comparisons, and I have been using diverse grates inside that on which I collected the briqs, to be ignited by a mix of those little paraffin/"eco-sawdust cubes they sell as firelighters... ample of those underneath the entire space that the briqs take about two inches above, needs about three parcels of 32 firelighters and I filled the spaces with wood pellets - you know the stuff. The pellets will make sure the entire setup burns for about ten minutes rather than just five with the firelighters. The paraffin cubes turned out to be of very unreliable quality, some are rather hard to ignite... so it's a good idea if you light this flammable square at the four edges, put in an eztra lit vub in the middle and then spray it all a bit with methanol so it starts up politically correct in an egalitarian, postmodern way - AFTER you put the grate with the coals/briqs on top. I get 5 kgs done like this equally in twenty minutes inside the fireplace, I then shut off the chimney and open the glass door...
For comparison, the little metal stoves - you can fill them up with 2 - 3.5 kgs maybe and then you better make sure it really burns underneath... don't just rely on paper. I filled one up to tops and watched it, and finally took off a layer of about two inches from the top because this was taking too long for my taste, at 45 minutes. Coals were still burning at the top at 55 minutes but almost grey when I put them onto the grill to watch them further. So they burned out on the grill within two, three minutes and glowed nicely and after 70 minutes, the first ones fell to ashes, after 80 minutes 2/3rds of them were gone...
What I'm saying is that when it takes 45 minutes to light up the top coals of the 3 kilos, the lower ones will have almost burned out and you really have only about 20 minutes max left to be sure of your CO effect. - I think this may be the reason why so many people fail - If you need more than 2 kgs, the method is just NOT optimal. It's not like, uh, grilling a piece of meat... so what I would do is spread the colas/briqs out one high, two max and light them in a regular way from directly underneath.
I will personally use the fireplace with 5 kgs, the grill with 3, and 10 liters of acid I'll mix in a metal jerry can in the bathroom, from which a 1" garden hoes leads to a 20 l plasric jerry can in the small living room with the fireplace (which is too big for the room). The plastic jerry can holds a washing system consisting of rock wool mats with water and a layer of pulverized coal on top so as to take care of the acid fumes. I have about 40 cubic meters of air in the small living room and I gather this setup will suffice ;)

Wow. I wish I had your brain and/or come over & sit with you. Amazing.

 

[Joannf]

dumb question maybe, but one of those disposable bbqs? Do they work?

It seems the public are all too unaware of the dangers of these disposable BBQs.

"They spew out carbon monoxide for 12 hours after they have been used and there have been numerous cases of people losing their lives or nearly losing their lives.

It may be a good idea to gather up four or five of these disposables as opposed to using a grill and lighting briqs from a bag in a stove...

 

[Joannf]

5 minute video explains #charcoal #briquette #production.
I suppose not all have anthracite coal inside, which may mean they light up faster but don't last as long, or whatever...
better stick with a brand and run a few tests before you go-go.
As anthracite has 85% carbon content, it seems briqs may have 70 or less as compare dto lump charcoal which should have 80 -

Here's a quote from a different source where they don't seem to be using that much sawdust - quite a difference :
Charcoal briquettes are made of two primary ingredients (comprising about 90% of the final product) and several minor ones. One of the primary ingredients, known as char, is basically the traditional charcoal, as described above. It is responsible for the briquette's ability to light easily and to produce the desired wood-smoke flavor. The most desirable raw material for this component is hardwoods such as beech, birch, hard maple, hickory, and oak. Some manufacturers also use softwoods like pine, or other organic materials like fruit pits and nut shells.
The other primary ingredient, used to produce a high-temperature, long-lasting fire, is coal. Various types of coal may be used, ranging from sub-bituminous lignite to anthracite.

Minor ingredients include a binding agent (typically starch made from corn, milo, or wheat), an accelerant (such as nitrate), and an ash-whitening agent (such as lime) to let the backyard barbecuer know when the briquettes are ready to cook over.

Well, well... the contradictions explain why the results can be surprising.
We don't want that.
I'll be back after testing how to get better results with REAL charcoal.

 

[Joannf]

Wow. I wish I had your brain and/or come over & sit with you. Amazing.

Well, we have to remove these insecurities. I refuse to die in an arbitrary, ineffective, at worst torturous manner ;)

 

[Joannf]

Comparison charcoal/charcoal briquettes - as briqs seem to come in entirely different mixes with strange ingredients, I decided to compare the briqs from my earlier post (a bit above) with the lump charcoal I had acquired... this is a 15 kg sackand its local Portuguese produce, they will deliver large chunks, almost logs thickness... about 15 cm by 20 cm apiece. These I sawed into slices about an inch thick with a little wood saw (cuts like a charm but use gloves and expect lots of active coal dust), which I then collected on a grill with some of the briqs to light them together and compare the reaction. I first covered the (even) floor of the grill with wood pellets, about 2 cms high, then added firelighters on top of that, close enough to each other that they would ignite each other, then I doused the entire setup with alcohol to urge fast ignition, lighting this at the four ends. It's important to have a nice layer of wood pellets or chips as these will burn for about 15 minutes (while the firelighters burn about 5 only, before the chips ignite) and this will make sure your coals/briqs, collected on a grid about 3-5 cms above, will ignite evenly...
Like this, the evenly cut coal slices as well as the briqs, burned out after about 35 minutes and were quite ready to be prcoesses... transported indoors though they weren't yet entirely grey. Consider that waiting till they're grey may result in unvoluntarily life-saving procedures...
Result : THERE WAS NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE TO BE SEEN BETWEEN THE COALS AND THE BRIQS, and they both glowed for about another 45 minutes till they disintegrated.
This makes me think that evenly cut charcoal slices may be the better choice than charcoal briquettes, especially as the C concentration is higher in the original charcoal... then again, this may not be as important as some people assume, I've heard about CO deaths from gas convectors run with propane or butane. Everything that burns badly (reddish flame) will produce CO rather than CO2, and it will kill as long as you're drowsy enough to stay through they night ;)

 

[Pointlesslife]

Cars do not release enough CO anymore to be effective. A filter or something has been added that I cannot remember the name of. If you know how to remove it I think it would still work but I'm unsure.

I could be wrong but I believe it is called a catalytic converter.

 

[Pointlesslife]

My biggest struggle now is the place where people won't be nosy and cops won't be patrolling. I CANNOT GET CAUGHT. Where is this magical place? I was thinking of forests, but I don't want the park rangers to stumble upon me while I'm not dead yet and "save" me. I also don't want to cause a forest fire. I'm even looking up where ppl have car sex in my city to find the most isolated and secluded place.

A bathroom isn't bad. It's a small place. I don't know about your bathroom but if I put everything in my bathtub I don't think the bathroom itself would catch fire.

 

[vfghjkjhilkj]

What about a portable propane gas stove , if used inside ? Obviously each cartridge of gas only holds so much but , if done in a car, would it work ? As the incomplete combustion must produce CO.

I believe one gets around 1.5 hours of continuous "gas" from a regular propane gas cyclinder for a typical gas stove.

 

[sini]

Well, I can assure you that if benzine generator is kept on so long that it shuts down, there is many times the deadly amount of CO in the air.

It goes on normally with CO
13 000ppm in the air. It's just 1.3% of CO of the air. That's not much of the air.

OTERetched, post: 125487, member: 3209"]I read about this and thought, wow, what a good method. When I was researching heaters/generators though it seems like a lot of them turn off when oxygen levels are low. :/[/QUOTE]

 

[sini]

I read about this and thought, wow, what a good method. When I was researching heaters/generators though it seems like a lot of them turn off when oxygen levels are low. :/

Flaws

As you can read they didn't have combustion meter witch is used in professional measuring of CO from combustion. They had meter witch can measure up to only 500ppm. Those are sold in ebay for 20$. Even if it was better one those are made to measure small amounts of CO with automatic alarm system that activates on very small amounts of CO. As you know combustion meters are made to measure high amounts of CO.
So that explains the low measures.

In one cubic meter CO level rises really fast to 1.5% (=15 000 CO). If car is 3 cubic meters like somewhere it was said then I would guess it gets
gets to above 1% in about 5-minutes (depends on generator too).

Portable generators produce CO as much as 200 cars. I read somewhere that it produces 70 000ppm straigh from it. So that's why people have dropped dead when plugging the electric core when when it's already on. They have big airholes on both sides for ventilation so a lot of smoke comes straight to your face when doing it. You can feel dizzy even when turning it on so one have to hold breath when doing it.

 

[sini]

Flaws

As you can read they didn't have combustion meter witch is used in professional measuring of CO from combustion. They had meter witch can measure up to only 500ppm. Those are sold in ebay for 20$. Even if it was better one those are made to measure small amounts of CO with automatic alarm system that activates on very small amounts of CO. As you know combustion meters are made to measure high amounts of CO.
So that explains the low measures.

In one cubic meter CO level rises really fast to 1.5% (=15 000 CO). If car is 3 cubic meters like somewhere it was said then I would guess it gets
gets to above 1% in about 5-minutes (depends on generator too).

Portable generators produce CO as much as 200 cars. I read somewhere that it produces 70 000ppm straigh from it. So that's why people have dropped dead when plugging the electric core when when it's already on. They have big airholes on both sides for ventilation so a lot of smoke comes straight to your face when doing it. You can feel dizzy even when turning it on so one have to hold breath when doing it.

Funny how my writing system writes twice same words. Sorry about errors.

I always speed write without checking it in freetime and english is not my native language. It's my third (in my country you have to speak 4 languages to pass schools). So sometimes I also mix up with the similar words too creating my very own language.;)

 

[sini]

In future generators are made safer like cars lowering their CO emissions. There is readily available technology for that already.

 

[stargazer]

http://www.wsfm.com.au/newsroom/mot...nd-dead-inside-car-in-suspected-suicide-pact/

Sorry if i'm not allowed to post website attachments, I am new, but I've seen others have posted news site links. Should I assume this was charcoal and not related to the tailpipe fumes?

How painless and easy is charcoal inside a car?

 

[stargazer]

i'm very excited about this method now, if it's as easy as getting into the car, locking the doors, and just sitting back and relaxing, thinking it'll all be over painlessly in a few minutes, without being disturbed for hours, in a home garage maybe. ahh peace :)

 

[stargazer]

The only thing now can i ask you all is, do you prefer a car with leather seats or vinyl seats? new or old car? gosh im excited!!!

 

[cappuccinogirl]

Hi does anyone know what symptoms you might get with co2. Does it make you sleepy. I presume can be quite quick. Tested levels with mixing acids and they go quite high quickly. thanks x

 

[stargazer]

I feel the charcoals inside a car will be my method. Now I just have to wait to hear back from my guy/or someone in the other partners mega thread. thanks for this great resource carbon monoxide mega thread.

 

[yppah71]

If I tried the CO method in a small sealed bathroom in my house, how long would the gas linger and what would be the danger to someone who came into the house in the next day or so? I live alone, but don't want to harm the next person who comes in for the inevitable wellness check, in case they where to come within the next day or so.

Appreciate any thoughts.

 

[weedoge]

To clarify some points brought up recently, as others have pointed out, 10000ppm is equivalent to 1% volume in the air. This is extremely lethal and knocks you out in seconds, using charcoal we struggle to push 10000ppm depending on the they execution. Therefore no need to worry about explosions, nobody has ever accidentally blew themselves up using this method.

Second, if you're going to research anthracite coal then I'd suggest doing tests before recommending it to others. Some charcoals have less carbon but going by weight you can make a safe estimate of how much charcoal you need for your space. 1-2kg is already plenty for a small tent but rooms and vehicles may need more. The worry with anthracite coal is that it may burn differently in some ways, because it is mineral rather than a processed briquette it may behave in unexpected ways such as burning hotter or colder, faster or slower than other charcoal, and most importantly is it likely to smoulder as reliably as a barbecuing charcoal?

I have tested a chimney burner and others have had great success with then, stuff the underneath with paper and even if you don't see much flame rather than smoke, leave it for a while and they'll be golden. I'll say that I bought a proper weber one to get the version with great ventilation. I think the chimney burner is most desirable because very little extras are needed and you can get a clean smoulder with no impure or gasoline type fuels.

Hi does anyone know what symptoms you might get with co2. Does it make you sleepy. I presume can be quite quick. Tested levels with mixing acids and they go quite high quickly. thanks x

Wikipedia is your friend, but yes personally I believe that many people could perform this method even without sedatives, carbon monoxide is known as the invisible or silent killer because there is usually no warning before you pass out. BTW this is CO, CO2 is very different.

 

[Joannf]

Hi does anyone know what symptoms you might get with co2. Does it make you sleepy. I presume can be quite quick. Tested levels with mixing acids and they go quite high quickly. thanks x

They tried CO2 to kill pigs in slaughterhouses and they went nuts with panic - CO2 will suffocate you, might as well jump from a bridge ;)

 

[Joannf]

If I tried the CO method in a small sealed bathroom in my house, how long would the gas linger and what would be the danger to someone who came into the house in the next day or so? I live alone, but don't want to harm the next person who comes in for the inevitable wellness check, in case they where to come within the next day or so.

Appreciate any thoughts.

If you cover up all air/ventilation outlets, it will stay for days - bathrooms are ideal. If you're using a hotel bathroom, don't use one of those "do not disturb" plastics, they always ignore them... paste some paper on the outside of the door with a stylized skull, saying "SURPRISE!"

 

[sini]

After reading many accident cases (that are easily found in Internet) I believe people just fall asleep, then become unconscious and then die. If any of them suffered or had noticed it there would be signs of struggle and they would have called 911.

If using acids there should be lots of CO or it can be hard to do.

But many can do anything when there is enough will.

They tried CO2 to kill pigs in slaughterhouses and they went nuts with panic - CO2 will suffocate you, might as well jump from a bridge ;)

I'm pretty sure he meant CO which can be made with acids. ;)

 

[sini]

But I agree that

After reading many accident cases (that are easily found in Internet) I believe people just fall asleep, then become unconscious and then die. If any of them suffered or had noticed it there would be signs of struggle and they would have called 911.

If using acids there should be lots of CO or it can be hard to do.

But many can do anything when there is enough will.


I'm pretty sure he meant CO which can be made with acids. ;)

But I agree with you on CO2. It should never be used to kill animals and hopefully no human will ever test it either. I heard Nitrogen and Helium being most humane ways to kill livestock. I'm happy people have started to do it humanely and that in future meat will be made in labs.

 

[Arak]

I read this thread once upton a time ... not today. if I were to choose this, it wouldn't be a car, it wouldn't be a tent. it would have to be a room. I'd rather not kill the neighbours, especially if I survive. Well, I got a room with a door I can lock.

But I get that it can be complicated to set up properly. A room, maybe 4.5 by three by 2.1 metres ? And the headaches and such ...

 

[sini]

What headaches?