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311

311

Dying cat
Nov 24, 2018
779
Ive always wanted ghb to ctb since it puts you to sleep right away and its a very small amount of liquid. Like 2ml. But its hard to get BUT a prodrug of it that metabolizes into ghb and i guess is not that well known in the US but sold as de facto ghb in Australia and is purchasable on amazon. it carries no risk of incarceration and its reliably fatal. What do you think?

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qbxexv/dark-side-of-ghb-narcomania-003

This method is fairly complicated. Care should be taken upon using this method. Please do due diligence when choosing a method.

Thanks,

mod team
 
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TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
I don't think they sell this on amazon. Can you provide a link if they do?
I typed <1,4 butanediol> into the Amazon search bar and got my choice of sizes up to a 3L jug of the stuff.

8oz is $47.35 with free shipping: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JP8PZ14/ref=twister_B07JPYXWT6?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

A bargain, compared to N.

That said, have a look at the Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,4-Butanediol

Specifically: "Adverse effects in higher doses include, nausea, vomiting, dizziness, sedation, vertigo, and potentially death if ingested in large amounts. Anxiolytic effects are diminished and side effects increased when used in combination with alcohol."

So it looks like antiemetics may be wise, and there's no established ctb protocol by which to guess which antiemetics would work best. In other words, it might be a bit of a gamble. I'm still waiting on @gingerplum to weigh in.
 
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creationisdeath

Specialist
Oct 20, 2018
359
Few things I've gathered so far:

It seems to be banned in Europe and even in a few US states.

There have been almost zero deaths (a handful over many decades).

Those deaths had "extreme overdoses" (it's not defined what extreme is).

So it's not as great as it seems.
 
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gingerplum

gingerplum

Enlightened
Nov 5, 2018
1,450
Ok, here's what I've got:

"1,4-Butanediol is added to a wide variety of dietary supplements to enhance sleep, libido, athletic performance, fat metabolism, and relaxation. It is also used as an industrial solvent. After ingestion, it is rapidly metabolized to gamma-hydroxybutyrate*, which itself is abused for euphoric and sexual side effects. This report describes 9 episodes of severe toxic effects from 1,4-butanediol in 8 patients, 2 of whom died.

Clinical findings included vomiting, urinary and fecal incontinence, agitation, combativeness, labile level of consciousness, coma, and death. 1,4-Butanediol was undetectable in nonfatal cases, but gamma-hydroxybutyrate concentrations in the blood and urine far exceeded normal concentrations. The amount ingested ranged from 5 g to 20 g (88 mg/kg-300 mg/kg) in the patients who died and 1 g to 14 g in those who survived.

Although only 9 toxic episodes related to 1,4-butanediol are reported here, overdoses from gamma-hydroxybutyrate-related compounds occur commonly. Targeted analysis is needed to detect these compounds because routine toxicologic screens do not detect them. Furthermore, given its rapid metabolism, gamma-hydroxybutyrate may be nondetectable in the blood after a few hours but may remain detectable in the urine. Fortunately, most patients recover from overdoses rapidly and uneventfully, as long as good supportive care is instituted
(emphsis mine)."

*See? It's a precursor to GHB, as OP (@311) stated.

https://www.jwatch.org/em200102280000009/2001/02/28/toxic-effects-1-4-butanediol

"From June 1999 through December 1999, cases of toxic effects of 1,4-butanediol involving patients who presented to emergency departments with a clinical syndrome suggesting toxic effects of gamma-hydroxybutyrate and a history of ingesting 1,4-butanediol and patients discovered through public health officials and family members /were identified/. Gas chromatography-mass spectrometry /was used/ to measure 1,4-butanediol or its metabolite, gamma-hydroxybutyrate, in urine, serum, or blood. Nine episodes of toxic effects in eight patients who had ingested 1,4-butanediol recreationally, to enhance bodybuilding, or to treat depression or insomnia /were identified/. One patient presented twice with toxic effects and had withdrawal symptoms after her second presentation. Clinical findings and adverse events included vomiting, urinary and fecal incontinence, agitation, combativeness, a labile level of consciousness, respiratory depression, and death. No additional intoxicants were identified in six patients, including the two who died. The doses of 1,4-butanediol ingested ranged from 5.4 to 20 g in the patients who died and ranged from 1 to 14 g in the nonfatal cases. The health risks of 1,4-butanediol are similar to those of its counterparts, gamma-hydroxybutyrate and gamma-butyrolactone. These include acute toxic effects, which may be fatal, and addiction and withdrawal."

https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+1112

"1,4-Butanediol is also used as a recreational drug known by some users as "One Comma Four", "Liquid Fantasy", "One Four Bee" or "One Four B-D-O". It exerts effects similar to γ-hydroxybutyrate (GHB), which is a metabolic product of 1,4-butanediol.[11][12] When mixed with other drugs, misuse of 1,4-butanediol has resulted in addiction and death.

While co-administration of ethanol and GHB already poses serious risks, co-administration of ethanol with 1,4-butanediol will interact considerably and has many other potential risks. This is because the same enzymes that are responsible for metabolizing alcohol also metabolize 1,4-butanediol so there is a strong chance of a dangerous drug interaction (emphasis mine). Emergency room patients who overdose on both ethanoland 1,4-butanediol often present with symptoms of alcohol intoxication initially and as the ethanol is metabolized the 1,4-butanediol is then able to better compete for the enzyme and a second period of intoxication ensues as the 1,4-butanediol is converted into GHB.[14]

Like GHB, 1,4-butanediol is only safe in small amounts. Adverse effects in higher doses include, nausea, vomiting, dizziness, sedation, vertigo, and potentially death if ingested in large amounts. Anxiolytic effects are diminished and side effects increased when used in combination with alcohol.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,4-Butanediol

"At least two people have died from a chemical cousin of GHB and six others have overdosed in the decade since the government banned the sale of the "date-rape drug," a study found.

More such overdoses have almost certainly occurred but have gone unreported, in part because many coroners and emergency rooms do not test for GHB, said medical anthropologist Deborah L. Zvosec, a Ph.D. who led the study published in Thursday's New England Journal of Medicine."

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n061/a09.html?397

"I decided to start small;
T=0; 1.2ml mixed in a shot of Orange juice.

T+60min; The effects seem to be winding down ever so slightly, so now I feel comfortable going to bed. I am sooooo grateful that I did not take any more when I considered doing so at ten minutes. I feel that, had I taken any more at that time, unrousable sleep would've surely ensued. I had originally considered taking 3ml. Good thing I started with just 1.2ml."

https://erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=9125

"This was the second time my wife and I tried 1,4-Butanediol. The first time we each did 5ml with very little effect. So we tried it again but this time we mixed it in our alcohol in our drinks.

1hour 45min went by and I mixed more 1,4-Butanediol in our drinks, then it started to really hit me but my wife was still sober. at this point I ended up putting a total of 40ml of the stuff between both of our drinks.

...[my wife] was cold, her face was blue, she had no signs of life except she was starting to go into uncontrolable convulsions from time to time. she did not respond to any external stimuli. someone ask me what did we take. I was so out of it I didn't even remember going to the party, let alone what we took.

... [hospital staff] confirmed that her coma would have been induced with the mixing of alcohol and 1,4-Butanediol. she finally came out of her coma after 6 hours, she did not remember anything. not the party or how we got there or any thing. it took another 5 hours till she was recovered enough that they released her. this stuff might be fun, but take it from my own stupidity DO NOT MIX WITH ALCOHOL!!!!"

https://erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=16276

"... according to the Drug Enforcement Administration, there were 49 deaths associated with the use of BD from 1995 through October 1999. "Patients use [1,4-butanediol] to get high, but … the dose needed to get high is close to the toxic dose."

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=117703&page=1

"The lowest reported LD50 (Lethal Dose, 50%; i.e. the dose that is lethal for half of the animals tested) value is 1200 mg/kg bw (body weight) in guinea pigs.

In rats and mice, reported values are in the range of 1525-1830 mg/kg bw and 2060 mg/kg bw respectively."

https://www.nicnas.gov.au/chemical-information/factsheets/chemical-name/butanediol-1,4-butanediol

So, the quick takeaway here is the stuff seems to be very lethal when mixed with alcohol. What I can't tell you is dosage; the LD/50 tests on animals are measured in mg per kg, and I don't know how to extrapolate mg/mL from a liquid chemical, even with the level of purity at a known 99%. However, from the anecdotal information I'm reading, and as @311 stated, it's relatively a very small amount, at or less than 5 mL.

Is it even possible to figure out the mg per mL? Is there a chemist in the house?!?

I'm kind of shocked these reports have been coming in for ~ 20 yrs, and this stuff is still readily available to anyone online.

Without further research-- I'm done for now-- my question would be how much time is necessary to be safe.

@311, I'm super impressed. This merits further discussion and research. Amazing find!!
 
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Retched

Retched

I see the chaos in your eyes.
Oct 8, 2018
837
Again, 1,4 butanediol is a precursor to GHB.
The case studies sound pretty awful, I there is no easy way but I guess something to look into? It's gotta be awful to take in the form of an industrial solvent....
 
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gingerplum

gingerplum

Enlightened
Nov 5, 2018
1,450
I think a reliable cocktail, this drug and alcohol plus a benzo would reliably kill you.

Based on everything I'm reading, I'm convinced it will, especially in combination with alcohol.
 
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gingerplum

gingerplum

Enlightened
Nov 5, 2018
1,450
How would you ctb with this Gingerplum?

I'm not 100% on this yet, but from what I've seen, I've formed an impression that a small amount of this-- maybe ~5 mL-- mixed with alcohol is enough to be lethal.

Research GHB and how alcohol potentiates the effects... it's a "date rape" drug for a reason. This is essentially the same thing... very small difference between a recreational amount and a lethal dose, especially when alcohol is involved.
 
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gingerplum

gingerplum

Enlightened
Nov 5, 2018
1,450
Because the dose is so massive. I cant be certain but hundreds of people have died from it.

Here's the kicker: I suspect those numbers are actually a lot higher, because GHB doesn't show up on a basic (standard) tox screen... you need gas chromatography/mass spectrometry (GC/MS) for it to show, not just standard blood & urine screens.
 
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311

311

Dying cat
Nov 24, 2018
779
Can any write down their recipe for doing this?
I would use metoclopramide before. Then drink some alcohol, like 4 shots of booze, then 2-4 ounces of this drug. That's how I would do it and I'm def planning to get it.
 
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O

OkTotti

Wizard
Nov 6, 2018
616
The reason I think it's so lethal is that party goers who take just a little too much end up on ventilators. What would happen if you took a HUGE dose, like 2 oz. If people die from ghb there must something here.
Yes, but with SN. You're not supposed to over do it and only ingest a specific amount (15 grams?), anymore would cause great pain and agony. What if GHB is the same ? I guess it make sense if a little puts you in a coma, then a lot must mean it will put you to death, but without any research how can anyone know for certain?
 
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A

Arak

Enlightened
Sep 21, 2018
1,176
You lucky Americans. Even if I would be able to import this stuff, customs might intercept it. In fact, they likely would if it was labeled correctly.
 
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311

311

Dying cat
Nov 24, 2018
779
Yes, but with SN. You're not supposed to over do it and only ingest a specific amount (15 grams?), anymore would cause great pain and agony. What if GHB is the same ? I guess it make sense if a little puts you in a coma, then a lot must mean it will put you to death, but without any research how can anyone know for certain?
Because there are hundreds of recorded deaths, and dozens of articles about overdoses. You can never be certain, not even with a gun. But it seems legit.
 
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sadsoul

sadsoul

Alive and unwell
Sep 9, 2018
440
Would you need a strong antiemetic like metoclopramide or is an OTC one enough since the amount of BDO you need to swallow is so small?

I really wonder what the LD50 in humans is. And it would be interesting to know what happens when you drink far more than the lethal dose (50-100 mL for example).
 
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311

311

Dying cat
Nov 24, 2018
779
Would you need a strong antiemetic like metoclopramide or is an OTC one enough since the amount of BDO you need to swallow is so small?

I really wonder what the LD50 in humans is. And it would be interesting to know what happens when you drink far more than the lethal dose (50-100 mL for example).
I think otc might work since it takes time to be metabolized so you wouldnt throw it up.
 
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gingerplum

gingerplum

Enlightened
Nov 5, 2018
1,450
Would you need a strong antiemetic like metoclopramide or is an OTC one enough since the amount of BDO you need to swallow is so small?

I really wonder what the LD50 in humans is. And it would be interesting to know what happens when you drink far more than the lethal dose (50-100 mL for example).

I'd always err on the side of taking metoclopramide. There's animal studies for the LD/50 in mice, but that's all I've seen so far.
 
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creationisdeath

Specialist
Oct 20, 2018
359
I'm a skeptic by nature. Why do doctors not recommend this? At least as an alternative to N?

I know dignitas/exit etc. are only in it to make their bosses massively rich, but surely they must have at least one legit MD that would have known about this?

There is very little material online which seems pretty weird.
 
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TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
Let's say you go with overkill, so to speak: you measure out 6oz of 1.4B

That's not even half a cup of mild-tasting, slightly salty liquid, compared to the notoriously nasty four gulps of N. Swig that down and chase it with a couple shots of your favorite hooch... And you're done.

Even better, it sounds like even if you don't get a lethal dose, for whatever reason, you're looking at a complete recovery. Missing memory and you've crapped your pants, but that's a pretty small price to pay for an unsuccessful attempt. Sure beats blowing your face off with a shotgun.

And without a serious tox screen, involving GC/MS, they'll never trace it.

If this is for real, it'll sure bite into A's business.

@311, @gingerplum, you make an awesome team.
 
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JohnDoe1

Arcanist
Sep 13, 2018
474
What would be the lethal dose of GHB?
How much GHB is contained in 1 ml of 1,4Butanediol?
 
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gingerplum

gingerplum

Enlightened
Nov 5, 2018
1,450
Let's say you go with overkill, so to speak: you measure out 6oz of 1.4B

That's not even half a cup of mild-tasting, slightly salty liquid, compared to the notoriously nasty four gulps of N. Swig that down and chase it with a couple shots of your favorite hooch... And you're done.

Even better, it sounds like even if you don't get a lethal dose, for whatever reason, you're looking at a complete recovery. Missing memory and you've crapped your pants, but that's a pretty small price to pay for an unsuccessful attempt. Sure beats blowing your face off with a shotgun.

And without a serious tox screen, involving GC/MS, they'll never trace it.

If this is for real, it'll sure bite into A's business.

@311, @gingerplum, you make an awesome team.

Thank you!! These are all excellent points you're making. Can't believe this hasn't been seriously discussed on this forum before. So glad you weighed in!
 
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TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
Thank you!! These are all excellent points you're making. Can't believe this hasn't been seriously discussed on this forum before. So glad you weighed in!
I'm weighing in as someone without any significant knowledge of medical chemistry, so I'm mostly just an enthusiastic onlooker. But boiling it down to basics --relatively easily available, relatively inexpensive, small dose, not unpleasant dose, peaceful transition to unconsciousness, minimal consequences in event of failure-- it sure looks good.

The next question to explore would be: what would contraindicate/negate 14B/GHB?

Just as Fentanyl sounds awesome (in theory, assuming you could get it), but would be ineffective for someone with a history of opiate use, and N can't be used by those with a history of heavy alcohol use, is there something that would make 14B/GHB ineffective?

In short: what are the possible pre-antidotes to 14B?
 
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gingerplum

gingerplum

Enlightened
Nov 5, 2018
1,450
I'm a skeptic by nature. Why do doctors not recommend this? At least as an alternative to N?

I know dignitas/exit etc. are only in it to make their bosses massively rich, but surely they must have at least one legit MD that would have known about this?

There is very little material online which seems pretty weird.

I'm a skeptic's skeptic, believe me. I question everything and everyone. I don't have a verifiable answer for you, but I'm guessing that most physicians know very little, if anything, about GHB. Probably only ER docs know what it is, and how to manage an OD.

There's an awful lot of information online, both medical documentation and anecdotal reports of death and near death experiences. I haven't seen any specific to suicide, but that becomes incidental when studying dosages and outcomes.
 
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A

Ayeitsalaska

Student
Dec 19, 2018
117
If I buy one ounce of this stuff and just purely drink that ounce will I die?
I'm 5'5, 155 lbs and 18 years old
 
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TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
If I buy one ounce of this stuff and just purely drink that ounce will I die?
I'm 5'5, 155 lbs and 18 years old
That's what we're trying to figure out.

I'd say 1oz was too little. From what I'm reading here, I'd say your minimum dose would be 5oz.

BUT!! We are still exploring 14B as a possibility, there's obviously a lot we don't know, so don't take anything here as gospel.
 
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gingerplum

gingerplum

Enlightened
Nov 5, 2018
1,450
I'm weighing in as someone without any significant knowledge of medical chemistry, so I'm mostly just an enthusiastic onlooker. But boiling it down to basics --relatively easily available, relatively inexpensive, small dose, not unpleasant dose, peaceful transition to unconsciousness, minimal consequences in event of failure-- it sure looks good.

The next question to explore would be: what would contraindicate/negate 14B/GHB?

Just as Fentanyl sounds awesome (in theory, assuming you could get it), but would be ineffective for someone with a history of opiate use, and N can't be used by those with a history of heavy alcohol use, is there something that would make 14B/GHB ineffective?

In short: what are the possible pre-antidotes to 14B?


Good question. As far as I have gotten, there is potential for tolerance, and people report addiction and relying on larger & larger doses for the same effect. So, habitual users would obviously have to factor that in.


If anyone else has any thoughts on possible contraindications, please chime in!
 
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TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
Wait, no, unless I'm misunderstanding. We're talking mLs, not ounces. 5 mL (usually with alcohol) is more than ingested in cases of respiratory failure. One oz is 30 mL, which would be huge.
Correct!

From your own earlier post:

"I decided to start small;
T=0; 1.2ml mixed in a shot of Orange juice.

T+60min; The effects seem to be winding down ever so slightly, so now I feel comfortable going to bed. I am sooooo grateful that I did not take any more when I considered doing so at ten minutes. I feel that, had I taken any more at that time, unrousable sleep would've surely ensued. I had originally considered taking 3ml. Good thing I started with just 1.2ml."

https://erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=9125

"This was the second time my wife and I tried 1,4-Butanediol. The first time we each did 5ml with very little effect. So we tried it again but this time we mixed it in our alcohol in our drinks.

1hour 45min went by and I mixed more 1,4-Butanediol in our drinks, then it started to really hit me but my wife was still sober. at this point I ended up putting a total of 40ml of the stuff between both of our drinks.

...[my wife] was cold, her face was blue, she had no signs of life except she was starting to go into uncontrolable convulsions from time to time. she did not respond to any external stimuli. someone ask me what did we take. I was so out of it I didn't even remember going to the party, let alone what we took.

... [hospital staff] confirmed that her coma would have been induced with the mixing of alcohol and 1,4-Butanediol. she finally came out of her coma after 6 hours, she did not remember anything. not the party or how we got there or any thing. it took another 5 hours till she was recovered enough that they released her. this stuff might be fun, but take it from my own stupidity DO NOT MIX WITH ALCOHOL!!!!"

https://erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=16276

Sorry, @Ayeitsalaska, I gave bad info.
 
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TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
It's incredible how small the amount is!! There are multiple other anecdotes on erowid.
I'm confused will one ounce kill me or not?
So yes, 1oz = 28.4mL = from what we can tell, you are likely to be dead. Make sure to take it with alcohol, as a potentiator. Perhaps with antiemetics, too --but that's just a guess...?

Please think carefully about this! This method is still very, very "experimental", if you will. No guarantees, as there are with N.
 
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gingerplum

gingerplum

Enlightened
Nov 5, 2018
1,450
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TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
Heavens to Mergatroid. I just looked at my measuring cups: 1oz, 28.4ml --a lethal dose-- is only four tablespoons.

What questions remain?

1) Effective amount of GHB per amount of 14B
2) Time to death
3) Contraindications
4) Volume of alcohol to effectively potentiate 14B
 
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