Afterlife proof?

[Lisa]

some replies on this thread make me tired lmao

idk if there's another brazilian on this forum but i was raised in an afro-brazilian religion called umbanda. unfortunaly the resourses about it in english are not really trust worty so i don't recommend reading those. the religion believes in an afterlife and reincarnation, it also believes that spirits can help humans on earth. the spirits "posseses" the bodies of mediums and talk to us. idk how to really explain it since my english is pretty limited but i do believe it. many times the spirits have talked to me about things that only i know, especific things. one example is when i was like 15 and dating another girl for the first time, i was very terrified of people finding out that i'm gay and one spirit told me to be calm and that they wouldn't tell anyone. that was a big relief.

you can believe it or not but that sort of thing happened to me many times.

edit: pressed send before i finished lol

I believe it

Do you know of a good medium I can speak with?

 

[Lucas]

I think the whole concept of afterlife is silly if you think it with logic. What happens to a baby who dies in the womb? Does it still get an afterlife as a baby? Yeah, we are animal creatures like the rest and once our brain dies, we are done, though our physical matter lives on in a form or another. Everything in the universe gets recycled, no energy is wasted. So I'd say my money is on reincarnation.

 

[Fylobatica]

Dude, "100% unsure" isn't even a meaningful phrase. Do you actually know anything about probability?

I thought that sarcasm was obvious, but... Perhaps it isn't.
On a second note, I'm a woman

Fylobatica, several people here have brought up another interesting point: rebirth.Since rebirth does not depend on surviving without a brain, I wonder how you intend to rule out that one

I think is the usual "random point", rather than an "interesting" one. Because here people like to make a lot of assumptions based on nothingness. That is why I started to talk about the phylogenesis of our brain, genetics (which rules out reincarnation 100%-- but common sense and a bit of knowledge of the evolutive history we share with other animals, not only mammals would also help), and yada yada but nobody of course listened because they had to protect with all of their inner strength the hypothesis - based on absolutely no proof whatsoever - that 'afterlife' exists.

However, as I previously said, it would be nice to share an afterlife with dinosaurs, mosquitos, birds, etc. etc. But I still think it'd be a bit useless, kind of pointless. Living forever in this way does not solve anything about the main issues of life.

 

[Life sucks]

However, as I previously said, it would be nice to share an afterlife with dinosaurs, mosquitos, birds, etc. etc. But I still think it'd be a bit useless, kind of pointless. Living forever in this way does not solve anything about the main issues of life.

I agree about life being imperfect and I don't see whats the point to live another one. Unless there is another way of living but then its out of our imagination and we won't be the same thing.

 

[Fylobatica]

I agree about life being imperfect and I don't see whats the point to live another one. Unless there is another way of living but then its out of our imagination and we won't be the same thing.

My point is that --let's buy into this afterlife theory for a while-- a billion years existence, whether it's sustained by 'reincarnations', 'another kind of transmigrated consciousness', whatever- does not add any particular meaning to existence itself. We'd still be out there around trying to find what to do next to keep ourselves amused or whatever.

Maybe I'm too much of an existentialist, but I'm in good company, lol.

 

[Life sucks]

I think the whole concept of afterlife is silly if you think it with logic. What happens to a baby who dies in the womb? Does it still get an afterlife as a baby? Yeah, we are animal creatures like the rest and once our brain dies, we are done, though our physical matter lives on in a form or another. Everything in the universe gets recycled, no energy is wasted. So I'd say my money is on reincarnation.

This is a problem also for the non-babies. If we suppose you die at age 80, what age and shape will you be in the afterlife? Unless someone believes in souls and these stuff, then it might be compatible.

 

[Life sucks]

My point is that --let's buy into this afterlife theory for a while-- a billion years existence, whether it's sustained by 'reincarnations', 'another kind of transmigrated consciousness', whatever- does not add any particular meaning to existence itself. We'd still be out there around trying to find what to do next to keep ourselves amused or whatever.

Maybe I'm too much of an existentialist, but I'm in good company, lol.

I think everyone (both sides of belief) is struggling to find a meaning or distract themselves. So it doesn't matter at the end when all of us are being tortured in this life.

 

[Tiredman]

I used to be a borderline atheist but it made the prospect of existence make little sense to me so I guess I'm now more of what you would call a very agnostic Christian. Being half Native American, I also have a lot of spiritual beliefs which led me to think that all things seem to have a sort of interconnected life force within them (kind of like Avatar lol) and that life is cyclical in nature. I was once told by a psychic that I was an "old soul". Who knows if he was the real deal or not but I would like to think he was.

In terms of existence / afterlife (I.e. why we're here etc) I would like to think of it this way: we're sent here to learn something so that our soul/spirit/higher self/ can progress to the next level of being/heaven/higher realms or whatever. If we fail at what we're meant to learn or do in this existence then we get reincarnated until we succeed at our given task. So if in all of my past lives I screwed my life up and committed suicide then I'm destined to get reincarnated and hopefully next time I'll make better choices so I wont have to ctb. I could be completely wrong in my beliefs but who knows! Only death is certain.

 

[Lisa]

I used to be a borderline atheist but it made the prospect of existence make little sense to me so I guess I'm now more of what you would call a very agnostic Christian. Being half Native American, I also have a lot of spiritual beliefs which led me to think that all things seem to have a sort of interconnected life force within them (kind of like Avatar lol) and that life is cyclical in nature. I was once told by a psychic that I was an "old soul". Who knows if he was the real deal or not but I would like to think he was.

In terms of existence / afterlife (I.e. why we're here etc) I would like to think of it this way: we're sent here to learn something so that our soul/spirit/higher self/ can progress to the next level of being/heaven/higher realms or whatever. If we fail at what we're meant to learn or do in this existence then we get reincarnated until we succeed at our given task. So if in all of my past lives I screwed my life up and committed suicide then I'm destined to get reincarnated and hopefully next time I'll make better choices so I wont have to ctb. I could be completely wrong in my beliefs but who knows! Only death is certain.

That's for sure.

By the way I replied to your thread on your reasons for not ctb yet

I'm not sure if you saw it

 

[Fylobatica]

I'd like to point out that if people's beliefs about 'reincarnation' to learn something more at each lifecycle or whatever were remotely true, we'd all be ultra savants by now, after thousands of supposed 'reincarnations'.
Also, what about newborns who die as soon after they are birthed?

It's somewhat difficult to integrate 'reincarnation' and genetic hereditariety. Either you get along with one or another, you can't have both at the same time. But genetics exists. That would be the problem

 

[El Topo]

I believe it

Do you know of a good medium I can speak with?

Someone I know talked to this psychic and said he knew things like the names of his dead pets and ex-girlfriends:
https://www.psychicmediummichael.com/

He must be popular. His next available appointment isn't until September.


My mom's co-worker's husband died in a fire. He was a contractor, and the building he was working in started burning down. He died trying to save an old lady. Afterwards she went to a medium to try to contact her dead husband. The spirit that spoke through the medium told her that before he died, he had bought her a necklace and had hidden it in a certain place in the house. When she looked there, she found the necklace.

 

[Lisa]

Someone I know talked to this psychic and said he knew things like the names of his dead pets and ex-girlfriends:
https://www.psychicmediummichael.com/

He must be popular. His next available appointment isn't until September.


My mom's co-worker's husband died in a fire. He was a contractor, and the building he was working in started burning down. He died trying to save an old lady. Afterwards she went to a medium to try to contact her dead husband. The spirit that spoke through the medium told her that before he died, he had bought her a necklace and had hidden it in a certain place in the house. When she looked there, she found the necklace.

Wow thank you so much El Topo

Is that the psychic you sent me the contact for that told her about the necklace?

Is your username based on the movie?

 

[El Topo]

Wow thank you so much El Topo

Is that the psychic you sent me the contact for that told her about the necklace?

Is your username based on the movie?

No, the psychic my mom's co-worker talked to is this lady:
https://www.almapura.com/

Haha yeah, my username is from the movie. I'm not crazy about the movie or anything, but I was trying to think of a username and it popped into my head. lol

 

[Lisa]

No, the psychic my mom's co-worker talked to is this lady:
https://www.almapura.com/

Haha yeah, my username is from the movie. I'm not crazy about the movie or anything, but I was trying to think of a username and it popped into my head. lol

Thank You so much I will try her

That's funny about your username

 

[kaffeekaethe]

I'm almost certain there is nothing BUT that little bit of uncertainty is what makes me want to go through with it. Like someone else said, if i knew with 100% certainty that there was nothing i probably wouldn't suicide...or maybe i would because its N. Any other method though forget about it. The risks are not worth just drifting into nothingness.

That's interesting, for me it is the other way around. I am also rather certain there is nothing, but I am very afraid that there is one of the very few things that still make me debate whether to do it, is that tiny voice telling me I am signing up for an enternity in hell (like physical torture and stuff, just for anyone saying "current life is hell", there could at least in my case be a lot of worse things, though I am not particularly fond of life). I mean it sounds like total BS typing that out

 

[Irukinj]

There's only one way to find out. Pascal's wager is you're best bet though. If I'm wrong I don't lose anything and you don't gain anything if your right (Your dead). If I'm right I gain everything, while you... yea. At least explore the issue rather than dismiss it.

 

[Kogoruhn]

I believe in reincarnation. When a person dies, he/she comes back to life in another time/space. You could be a person again, or an animal, or even an alien living in another system. I believe this process is random, and it depends on the birth ratio. For example, if i was to reincarnate today, and only taking into account life on Earth, i would most probably be born in a country like India, Nigeria, etc. Maybe my vision seems a bit horrific, having to repeat this process indefinitely, but i believe the world is slowly getting better, despite what most people say.
Sorry for my english.

 

[dangier_to_myself]

I thought that sarcasm was obvious, but... Perhaps it isn't.
On a second note, I'm a woman



I think is the usual "random point", rather than an "interesting" one. Because here people like to make a lot of assumptions based on nothingness. That is why I started to talk about the phylogenesis of our brain, genetics (which rules out reincarnation 100%-- but common sense and a bit of knowledge of the evolutive history we share with other animals, not only mammals would also help), and yada yada but nobody of course listened because they had to protect with all of their inner strength the hypothesis - based on absolutely no proof whatsoever - that 'afterlife' exists.

However, as I previously said, it would be nice to share an afterlife with dinosaurs, mosquitos, birds, etc. etc. But I still think it'd be a bit useless, kind of pointless. Living forever in this way does not solve anything about the main issues of life.

Could you please explain to me how genetics rules out rebirth? Or even how the two are related?

 

[dangier_to_myself]

I'd like to point out that if people's beliefs about 'reincarnation' to learn something more at each lifecycle or whatever were remotely true, we'd all be ultra savants by now, after thousands of supposed 'reincarnations'.
Also, what about newborns who die as soon after they are birthed?

It's somewhat difficult to integrate 'reincarnation' and genetic hereditariety. Either you get along with one or another, you can't have both at the same time. But genetics exists. That would be the problem

Again, to me the two seem totally orthogonal to each other. I don't see why one would interfere with the other, let alone prohibit it

 

[Lisa]

Could you please explain to me how genetics rules out rebirth? Or even how the two are related?

Exactly

(Everyone is just ignoring him now

Or her rather).

 

[Fylobatica]

to me the two seem totally orthogonal to each other. I don't see why one would interfere with the other

Then please explain how the formation of a new connectome and the re-injection of an old personality (memories, etc.) into a brain that is developing in a mother's womb, considering that the factors implied are hers and the father's gametes, is possible.
Seriously, we're beyond this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

(Everyone is just ignoring him now

Or her rather).

I'd suggest please stop making personal remarks against me, it's quite childish behavior.

 

[tMartin]

Something that humans always do is to explain things that they don't know with magic, spirits or anything like that. When people didn't know why sometimes it rains, they said that the rain is someting sent by god. We don't know what there is after we die, and people are trying to explain that with magic, as humanity has always done. Our synapses processed every second of our life, when they will die our consciousness will be gone forever.
(Sorry for my english, i hope you have understood what i'm trying to say)

 

[dangier_to_myself]

Then please explain how the formation of a new connectome and the re-injection of an old personality (memories, etc.) into a brain that is developing in a mother's womb, considering that the factors implied are hers and the father's gametes, is possible.
Seriously, we're beyond this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope



I'd suggest please stop making personal remarks against me, it's quite childish behavior.

Two things. 1) I never said anything about personality or memories, and 2) memories are never genetic, so if a child in the womb did have memories from previous lifetimes, they would no more come from the genes than other memories do

 

[Fylobatica]

) I never said anything about personality or memories,

Without personality we are literally nothing, not ourselves at all. We're stating the obvious here

memories are never genetic, so if a child in the womb did have memories from previous lifetimes, they would no more come from the genes than other memories do

Epigenetic memories exist, and are inherited through generations. There are also environmentally-induced RNAm responses in adaptation to a survival contest that might make some psychological and physiological responses transmittable to further descendants, so that they could remember what they haven't learned first-hand.
That's for the technical part

they would no more come from the genes than other memories do

From where, then?

 

[Life sucks]

If we assume this life is bound by time/space and any type of mathematical/physical rules then reincarnation is ruled out. Also, if we assume that there is another kind of life that shares the same time/space concept and mathematical/physical rules, then we can't be transferred there while remaining the same. This rules out reincarnation and afterlife(as a second life of the same rules).

Why ruling out?
Every human is in a constant change, and being you in the past is a different thing than now or the future. Moreover, options in life (if we assume free will) will change the person dramatically. You can imagine and have a thought expirement about another you who had chosen to different path then after seeing each other, both of you will not believe being the same person.

The humans like everything in the universe is in constant change and can be viewed as a state machine. Which state would be reincarnated or sent to afterlife?
What if you wanted to choose a path but couldn't (if we assume free will), isn't this being dictated and controlled by your circumstances and environment rather than being truly yourself? Now which state would you choose to transfer? Not to mention that theoretically, we can make infinitely many outcomes depending on the time signature and action chosen.

Afterlife is only logical if at least one of these points can be applied:

1) There are non-physical components in us like souls. (but this don't solve the state changing problem and it will mean that soul is independent and won't represent what you think is "you").

2) The afterlife being in a completely different thing than this life. Not following the physical/mathematical rules which means everything is possible. (but again yourself will be lost because what you experience here is based on the rules. However, this point is compatible with the first but you won't be yourself).

3) God or external force (beyond our imagination) that will choose one of your countless states in life and send it to another life with the same rules. (but that won't be really you, and the state is a product of the first life and biologically you won't be suddenly an adult, so this is just a theoretical valid point but not practical)

 

[RainyDayz]

No matter what you may believe or how sure you are... you truly will never be certain until you die

 

[Santiago]

Yes I have had multiple encounters with entities.

I do never talk about it so I won't now either. There is no point in it anyways. People will believe what they believe.

And although I have experienced this I am still not 100% sure of an afterlife. I also know that the human brain is a powerful thing.

We will see.

 

[Lisa]

Yes I have had multiple encounters with entities.

I do never talk about it so I won't now either. There is no point in it anyways. People will believe what they believe.

And although I have experienced this I am still not 100% sure of an afterlife. I also know that the human brain is a powerful thing.

We will see.

Hi Santiago

Can you please share one experience?

If you share one I will too.

 

[dangier_to_myself]

Without personality we are literally nothing, not ourselves at all. We're stating the obvious here



Epigenetic memories exist, and are inherited through generations. There are also environmentally-induced RNAm responses in adaptation to a survival contest that might make some psychological and physiological responses transmittable to further descendants, so that they could remember what they haven't learned first-hand.
That's for the technical part



From where, then?

Apologies, I don't know how to break up quotes, so consider each of the paragraphs a response to the corresponding paragraph of your comment.

Bernard Williams has proven that the the survival of my personality has nothing to do with my own survival, as would literally one moment's thought.

Are you seriously claiming that *all* memories are stored in the genes?

Morphic resonance

 

[dangier_to_myself]

If we assume this life is bound by time/space and any type of mathematical/physical rules then reincarnation is ruled out. Also, if we assume that there is another kind of life that shares the same time/space concept and mathematical/physical rules, then we can't be transferred there while remaining the same. This rules out reincarnation and afterlife(as a second life of the same rules).

Why ruling out?
Every human is in a constant change, and being you in the past is a different thing than now or the future. Moreover, options in life (if we assume free will) will change the person dramatically. You can imagine and have a thought expirement about another you who had chosen to different path then after seeing each other, both of you will not believe being the same person.

The humans like everything in the universe is in constant change and can be viewed as a state machine. Which state would be reincarnated or sent to afterlife?
What if you wanted to choose a path but couldn't (if we assume free will), isn't this being dictated and controlled by your circumstances and environment rather than being truly yourself? Now which state would you choose to transfer? Not to mention that theoretically, we can make infinitely many outcomes depending on the time signature and action chosen.

Afterlife is only logical if at least one of these points can be applied:

1) There are non-physical components in us like souls. (but this don't solve the state changing problem and it will mean that soul is independent and won't represent what you think is "you").

2) The afterlife being in a completely different thing than this life. Not following the physical/mathematical rules which means everything is possible. (but again yourself will be lost because what you experience here is based on the rules. However, this point is compatible with the first but you won't be yourself).

3) God or external force (beyond our imagination) that will choose one of your countless states in life and send it to another life with the same rules. (but that won't be really you, and the state is a product of the first life and biologically you won't be suddenly an adult, so this is just a theoretical valid point but not practical)

Survival has nothing to do with identity