levymarie

levymarie

Member
Jun 3, 2019
11
I am open minded and have dabled in the occult my whole life. That being said I do not belive there is anything after death. I think there is something beautiful about the fact that our existence is just one big coincidence and not part of some "plan". Human's have an ego and unfortunately that ego has made us believe we are special. Other Animals dont sit and ponder their own existence unlike humans. I once heard someone say "you are the center of your own universe". It's true, we all experience life through our very own personal lense and I think thats why its so easy for people to think they are so "special". If there is an afterlife what would that mean for every other creature. Do whales get one? Bee's? Bee's are essential for human life, making them pretty special. Do they get to experince something after death? Also human's are hardwired to resist death, and its naturally scary to think about for the most part. So I belive the concept of an afterlife while unlikely, makes alot of sense. It helps humans cope.
 
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alternativeway

Member
Jan 20, 2019
5
I used to believe in a soul that can experience things separate from the body... until I had general anesthesia.

When you have it, you experience nothing. Not even time passing. You wake up and it feels like only a second has passed by even though it may have been two hours.

If there is a soul so independent from the body that it can experience things even if the body is dead, how could a simple drug prevent it from experiencing anything at all — even the vague passage of time — while under anesthesia?

I'm convinced that death is exactly this. Nothing. But not a black void or anything spooky like that. Literally nothing. The way that that those two hours passed without any experience before waking up again. Except you don't wake up.

For me, it is comforting. There is nothing to fear about death. There is no such thing as "being dead". There is only "not living".
 
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levymarie

levymarie

Member
Jun 3, 2019
11
Can you share some details? :)
When I was younger I saw what I thought were spirits and would use a ouija board every once and awhile. After one time I threw it away because I really felt like I had brought bad energy into my life. I have always had dreams that predicted future events. So when I was a teenager I began doing tarot and reading psychic development books. Ive studided Wicca, Satanism, Buddhism, etc. I learned how to astral project for awhile and had some cool experinced with meditation. I also did hypnosis and it actually worked for me. Astrology, Numerology, Psychics, Spirit Guides, Manifesting, I was obsessed with all of it for a very long time.I went to healers and teachers to take classes and learn all of it. Ive also had many "magical" moments in life that seem fated. So sometimes I really do belive that there is something more but Im not 100% convinced.
 
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Severen

Severen

Enlightened
Jun 30, 2018
1,819
When I was younger I saw what I thought were spirits and would use a ouija board every once and awhile. After one time I threw it away because I really felt like I had brought bad energy into my life. I have always had dreams that predicted future events. So when I was a teenager I began doing tarot and reading psychic development books. Ive studided Wicca, Satanism, Buddhism, etc. I learned how to astral project for awhile and had some cool experinced with meditation. I also did hypnosis and it actually worked for me. Astrology, Numerology, Psychics, Spirit Guides, Manifesting, I was obsessed with all of it for a very long time.I went to healers and teachers to take classes and learn all of it. Ive also had many "magical" moments in life that seem fated. So sometimes I really do belive that there is something more but Im not 100% convinced.
I spent like 7 or 8 years as someone who was obsessed with the occult. I was totally obsessed... So I started off on the same path you were on but took another path. I believe in life after death, at least for some people...
 
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levymarie

levymarie

Member
Jun 3, 2019
11
I spent like 7 or 8 years as someone who was obsessed with the occult. I was totally obsessed... So I started off on the same path you were on but took another path. I believe in life after death, at least for some people...
Do you mind me asking what you belive its like and why?
 
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Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
I used to believe in a soul that can experience things separate from the body... until I had general anesthesia.

When you have it, you experience nothing. Not even time passing. You wake up and it feels like only a second has passed by even though it may have been two hours.

If there is a soul so independent from the body that it can experience things even if the body is dead, how could a simple drug prevent it from experiencing anything at all — even the vague passage of time — while under anesthesia?

I'm convinced that death is exactly this. Nothing. But not a black void or anything spooky like that. Literally nothing. The way that that those two hours passed without any experience before waking up again. Except you don't wake up.

For me, it is comforting. There is nothing to fear about death. There is no such thing as "being dead". There is only "not living".

Try Ayahusca if you want to experience mind beyond body. You'll definitely get an exremely strong feeling of your soul. Ayahusca is maybe too strong and dangerous for people who are very vulnerable, but you get 100% spiritual experience.
 
Ambie

Ambie

Member
Jun 13, 2019
46
I used to believe in a soul that can experience things separate from the body... until I had general anesthesia.

When you have it, you experience nothing. Not even time passing. You wake up and it feels like only a second has passed by even though it may have been two hours.

If there is a soul so independent from the body that it can experience things even if the body is dead, how could a simple drug prevent it from experiencing anything at all — even the vague passage of time — while under anesthesia?

I'm convinced that death is exactly this. Nothing. But not a black void or anything spooky like that. Literally nothing. The way that that those two hours passed without any experience before waking up again. Except you don't wake up.

For me, it is comforting. There is nothing to fear about death. There is no such thing as "being dead". There is only "not living".

I really wish it was just nothing. But there is a huge difference between being asleep and being dead. After my near death experience and shroom trips I'm convinced that death is just an illusion.
 
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Kuolema

Student
Jun 27, 2019
187
I have never experienced anything remotely supernatural, but I do have a belief in something resembling Heaven. I don't think it's having a mind or a body, I just think it's being at peace in the presence of God. No sadness or worries, just pure everlasting joy unlike anything we experience on Earth. That's the best way I can describe it. What happens to evil people, I don't know. I like to think they'll go through some sort of purgatory or reincarnation where they'll be purified of their evil ways before they get to go to Heaven. But like I said I don't know. We'll all find out sooner or later.
 
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Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,704
We'll all find out sooner or later.

I guess we will! Unless we all encounter something different. Parallel universes. Serial universes. "Who ordered the nothingness?" "There'll be a short wait for the Eden scenarios, sorry!"
 
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Kuolema

Student
Jun 27, 2019
187
Try Ayahusca if you want to experience mind beyond body. You'll definitely get an exremely strong feeling of your soul. Ayahusca is maybe too strong and dangerous for people who are very vulnerable, but you get 100% spiritual experience.
I really wish it was just nothing. But there is a huge difference between being asleep and being dead. After my near death experience and shroom trips I'm convinced that death is just an illusion.
As someone who has never experienced any psychedelic drugs, this has always left me wondering. I know it's pretty much impossible to explain a trip to someone who's never experienced it, but what would you say changed about yourself after your first trip? Did you feel happier? Did you feel like a different person? Did it help with regards to suicidal thoughts? I've thought quite seriously about going to Peru and experiencing ayahuasca for myself once I've gotten off the meds I'm on. I don't know if it would be such a good idea considering all my anxiety and depression, but I feel it's something I need to experience before I die.
 
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Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,704
It can be a revelation, astounding and reassuring and dismaying but mostly just a clear-eyed inventory of how close my life comes to the way I want to live. That's why I've found hallucinogens have a positive effect: I stopped fucking around and making excuses.
 
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Mn1245

Member
Apr 11, 2019
20
I experienced a trip once and it was like I knew that everything was one, there was no time, it was an illusion, and there was no difference between life and death, so there was nothing to fear. When I woke up, I forgot about how that felt, but it was great at the time. I think after death my experience will be similar: no fear, no sense of time, feeling as one with everything. That's what I hope at least.
 
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JoeFailure

Mage
Apr 29, 2019
574
For those of you who believe in karma and being judged or what realm you're placed in if you do commit suicide...what if you're a totally different person today than the person who made a lot of mistakes that put you into this hole? Like if I knew now what I didn't then, I would've lived life so much different.

Yeah, my ADHD/strong maladaptive daydreaming would've always been an obstacle, but I could've managed it. I could've found a long-term job that I could have done while managing it in either special ed or at least volunteered for it on the side.

I just realized it all too late. I don't have a way out now. Do you think they care at all about true repentance?
 
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Kuolema

Student
Jun 27, 2019
187
For those of you who believe in karma and being judged or what realm you're placed in if you do commit suicide...what if you're a totally different person today than the person who made a lot of mistakes that put you into this hole? Like if I knew now what I didn't then, I would've lived life so much different.

Yeah, my ADHD/strong maladaptive daydreaming would've always been an obstacle, but I could've managed it. I could've found a long-term job that I could have done while managing it in either special ed or at least volunteered for it on the side.

I just realized it all too late. I don't have a way out now. Do you think they care at all about true repentance?
I'm not very wise when it comes to spiritual matters (actually I'm not wise at all) but I believe that God judges people based off their entire life, not what happens at the end of it. Although if you do truly repent (and I mean truly) at the end of it all, it might just be enough to outweigh all the rest you've done wrong. God doesn't want to punish us, rather it's us who want to rebel against God. I also don't think suicide is inherently a sin or bad karma. It's all a matter of context, if you kill yourself for evil reasons (like Hitler, mass shooters etc etc) then you'll be punished, if you do it because you can't handle life, then God will show you mercy. I believe in a merciful God and I simply can't see someone burning for eternity simply because they wanted to escape their suffering. This is all conjecture though, based off of feelings not fact. So take it with a grain of salt.
 
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Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
I'm not very wise when it comes to spiritual matters (actually I'm not wise at all) but I believe that God judges people based off their entire life, not what happens at the end of it. Although if you do truly repent (and I mean truly) at the end of it all, it might just be enough to outweigh all the rest you've done wrong. God doesn't want to punish us, rather it's us who want to rebel against God. I also don't think suicide is inherently a sin or bad karma. It's all a matter of context, if you kill yourself for evil reasons (like Hitler, mass shooters etc etc) then you'll be punished, if you do it because you can't handle life, then God will show you mercy. I believe in a merciful God and I simply can't see someone burning for eternity simply because they wanted to escape their suffering. This is all conjecture though, based off of feelings not fact. So take it with a grain of salt.

In the buddhist teachings of karma there is not omnipotent god dishing out rewards or punishments. It's simply the cause and effect of our thoughts, words and actions. In buddhism the state of our mind at the time of death is very influential in our rebirth. And since often suicide is driven by immense aversion, self-hatred and fear it's very often a very negative karma. I'm not trying to scare people, I'm just describing how the buddhist teachings view suicide and people are perfectly entitled not to believe it.
 
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Kuolema

Student
Jun 27, 2019
187
In the buddhist teachings of karma there is not omnipotent god dishing out rewards or punishments. It's simply the cause and effect of our thoughts, words and actions. In buddhism the state of our mind at the time of death is very influential in our rebirth. And since often suicide is driven by immense aversion, self-hatred and fear it's very often a very negative karma. I'm not trying to scare people, I'm just describing how the buddhist teachings view suicide and people are perfectly entitled not to believe it.
That's fair enough. I'm very interested in Eastern religions but I know next to nothing about them. I'm quite fond of Sikhism, they seem to reconcile the idea of reincarnation and an omnipotent monotheist God. I don't know much about them though aside from what little I've read on Sikhiwiki. But when it comes to Buddhism, are you saying that an entire life of good karma could result in a bad rebirth if in your last moment you had wicked thoughts? Or am I misinterpreting things?
 
S

Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
That's fair enough. I'm very interested in Eastern religions but I know next to nothing about them. I'm quite fond of Sikhism, they seem to reconcile the idea of reincarnation and an omnipotent monotheist God. I don't know much about them though aside from what little I've read on Sikhiwiki. But when it comes to Buddhism, are you saying that an entire life of good karma could result in a bad rebirth if in your last moment you had wicked thoughts? Or am I misinterpreting things?

It's possible, but if you have a entire of good karma there is a greater chance of things swinging in your favour. A buddhist teacher whom I respect much wrote recently that a lot of buddhist practice can be wasted if we have strong attachment during the time of death. Which is some standards that are difficult to uphold for mortals like me and mentally ill people. Still though since the law of karma is said to be unerring good deeds are never in vain.
 
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Sh00

Member
Jul 3, 2019
41
Overall I'd say nothingness is the most probable outcome.
However if when I die I encounter anything that resembles a God, unless it can give me a good reason for existence that I can't comprehend at the moment, I'm going to do whatever I can to make it suffer in return.
Will probably accomplish nothing against something with the power to create the universe, but I would be so furious at it for creating and allowing such suffering, I doubt I'd be able to control myself.
 
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Kuolema

Student
Jun 27, 2019
187
This will sound silly but do any of you believe in magic? It seems just about every culture in history had a belief in magic, whether negative or positive. I've known people who believed in that sort of stuff, but they were also people who did a lot of drugs. I've never seen any evidence of it and I don't see why doing certain rituals would have any effect on the world around you. Maybe I'm missing something.
 
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Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
This will sound silly but do any of you believe in magic? It seems just about every culture in history had a belief in magic, whether negative or positive. I've known people who believed in that sort of stuff, but they were also people who did a lot of drugs. I've never seen any evidence of it and I don't see why doing certain rituals would have any effect on the world around you. Maybe I'm missing something.

I do. I know a real life witch. I don't think in countries where the general population believes in witchcraft that there's a lot of drugs involved. Open-minded westerners who have explored the worlds spiritual traditions are probably also more open-minded in exploring enthogenic drugs. Some of them anyway. I know tons who are completely clean.
Some drugs like Iboga, San Pedro and Ayahuasca are used in magic rituals traditionally.
 
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Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
When you talk about magic are you thinking about something in partocular?
 
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Kuolema

Student
Jun 27, 2019
187
When you talk about magic are you thinking about something in partocular?
Many different things, but mainly someone conducting rituals or wearing certain objects to have a desired effect. Like if you wear a certain amulet it will protect you from the evil eye. Stuff like that.
 
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Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
Many different things, but mainly someone conducting rituals or wearing certain objects to have a desired effect. Like if you wear a certain amulet it will protect you from the evil eye. Stuff like that.

I would say that tantric buddhism is full of this stuff.
 
L

LittleJem

Visionary
Jul 3, 2019
2,524
Here's what I believe: there's too much data which indicates that we are not just this physical body (born blind people seeing in NDE, people reporting what the doctors and the nurses were doing while they were brain dead, people reading 5 code numbers while out of body, people sharing the same dream, people having dreams that predicted their future, people having the same "hallucination", remote viewing, sumerian tablets, quantum mechanics, too much similarity in NDE (almost everyone sees basically the same thing, the tunnel of light, the life review yada yada). And there is more data but I won't continue with the list. Religion has nothing to do with this. We might just live in a virtual reality created by consciousness.

I agree - so much evidence of an afterlife/reincarnation. All over the web. Check out this guy - a medical doctor whose patients started recalling past lives, to his surprise: http://www.brianweiss.com/ I have met normal people who saw things with psychic sight (eg train crashes/premonitions of family members dying) - these were truckers when I was hitch-hiking in Australia. I wish it wasn't the case tbh, it would be nice for death to be the end, but I don't have any doubts re reincarnation.

Also, if you want to experience this kind of thing for yourself, try 5 MEO DMT/DMT. 5 MEO DMT can be helpful for depression - for me it just gave me one day off, but there are reports of it being more helpful.

The funniest thing is people who give trip reports off Salvia have experienced being inanimate objects like paint and roads!!! I met a guy into past life regression whose favourite past life was as a giraffe, and he also experienced being sand on a beach.

For me, I'd like my next life to be a pampered cat. Can't take this depressed human life anymore - want some time out!
 
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JoeFailure

Mage
Apr 29, 2019
574
The inanimate object thing sounds terrifying. How long do you have to be that?
 
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LittleJem

Visionary
Jul 3, 2019
2,524
I find the occurrence of both of the following statements in the same post strange:

"Also, I have quite some problems with the word 'supernatural', because there's so much that has to be discovered yet about quantum physics that there's no need to differentiate between the two"

"Somebody mentioned "miracles" but I can't put my trust in an hypothetical entity that makes thousands of people die every day for the silliest accidents but it's ok with making a few inches of an internal organ regrow for the sake of it."

Since I made no statement regarding whether the existence of miracles indicates that one should "trust" in any particular deity -- in fact I said some things indicating that we don't (and perhaps can't) know how favorable to us the afterlife or afterlives, and by extension supernatural phenomena broadly, will generally be -- I surmise that KCN is meaning to say that the problem of evil is still sufficient reason to disbelieve in God despite apparently miraculous phenomena (I addressed the PoE earlier, btw).

What is odd about this is that KCN is seemingly willing to believe that everything will work out for naturalism in the end, such that there will be no reason to endorse supernaturalism, because our knowledge of quantum physics is still incomplete. The same charity, for some reason, is not extended to the possibility that God exists. KCN seems to imply: There is nothing sufficiently mysterious about God or apparently miraculous phenomena to allow the benefit of the doubt here -- we can be quite sure there is no God because the existence of evil and the existence of miracles just don't seem to align (even if our knowledge is incomplete? or because we know our knowledge is complete on these matters somehow? KCN leaves the critical assumption unclear); only if naturalism, physicalism, or some such respectable view is threatened with anomalous findings can we assume that everything will turn out in a way compatible with such a view, due to our incomplete knowledge. This is the naturalist version of "God works in mysterious ways," looks like yet more question-begging to me.
Fylobatica,

Thanks again for your reply. Although we don't agree, I enjoy discussing these issues.

The first point I want to address concerns you presumption that belief in afterlives, supernaturalism, or whatever is taken on because it is comforting. It is uncharitable to presume that this is always the case. For me, a potential afterlife is not comforting, insofar as it leaves open the possibility that the afterlife, or some people's afterlives, are bad, even hellish. I would take certain postmortem oblivion over some unknown probability of a horrible afterlife that could be inescapable. As I noted earlier, I was an atheist and anti-supernaturalist for most of my cognitively mature life, and found those beliefs comfortable. For the suicidal especially, the prospect of certain alleviation of pain through annihilation of consciousness upon death can be comforting, so the sword cuts both ways here. I reject atheism and anti-supernaturalism now because I have been compelled by evidence to believe that they are false.

The second point is your presumption that all materialist explanations must be fully ruled out before we can reject materialism and related metaphysical views. This is far too strong a standard, and basically begs the question against supernaturalism, since one can always simply insist that all apparent evidence of supernatural phenomena results from hallucinations, misperceptions, scientific errors, and so on. Since one can never rule such things out entirely, and indeed since all scientific theories (let alone metaphysical ones) are empirically underdetermined (see the Duhem-Quine thesis), this would leave us in a condition in which materialism could never be rejected. Furthermore, it can always be posited that there are further as yet undiscovered possible materialistic explanations of apparently supernatural phenomena -- materialists already do this when faced with phenomena that appear to contradict materialism. Once again, this falls into question-begging against supernaturalism.

Now on to your other claims:

"It's all about computation, just as shown by insects."

Once again, and as made clear in the very article you linked, there is no evidence whatsoever that insects have subjective experience. The notion that they do depends on the assumption that certain kinds of nervous structures are sufficient to generate subjective experience. Your points about the level of neural complexity needed to have full-blown human consciousness is beside the point. Again, we have nothing like evidence of subjective experience in anything other than humans, and even that evidence is only available because of the sophisticated communication that is possible between humans, but not between humans and non-human animals or among non-human animals. You argue again that everything will shake out in a way compatible with materialism in coming years; this is just an instance of assuming the truth of your position out of hand, and so isn't persuasive.

On NDEs, you're offering speculations about how various physical conditions could induce hallucinatory experiences in the nearly dead. These explanations have not gained much assent among NDE researchers precisely because they haven't been shown adequate to account for the full range of NDE phenomena -- their limitations are made clear in the article that I linked in my first post from Parnia (an expert on NDEs). More importantly, you are flatly ignoring the aspects of NDEs that seem impossible to accommodate in a materialistic framework: congenitally blind people (note that they have no vision to enhance) somehow acquiring veridical visual information, people recovering from brain death or near-brain death accurately reporting events that occurred while they were brain dead or nearly so (not events that occurred before or after, as all of these "what if NDEs occur before or shortly after brain death" explanations assume). Here is Parnia's summary statement regarding anomalous NDE phenomena that appear to support supernaturalist views: "Given that cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) is insufficient to meet the metabolic requirements of the brain and that brain function ceases even with CPR, and is associated with a concurrent slowing and absence of cortical EEG within 2–20s, reports of consciousness during CPR—i.e. at a time when the brain is thought to be 'non-functional'—raise questions about the relationship between mind and brain/body".

"Actually psychosomatics has been scientifically proven."

The mere existence of psychosomatic healing phenomena isn't sufficient to explain all apparent medical miracles. No one has ever shown that psychosomatic phenomena can cause the regeneration of many centimeters of lost intestinal tissue, as has seemingly miraculously occurred (see the video I linked in my last post) -- that would fly in the face of all established medical science. There is a reason the authors of the review article regarding the Lourdes cures stated that these occurrences await "a scientific explanation," despite their manifest knowledge of psychosomatic healing processes. I should add that some of the Lourdes cures happened to people who were unconscious when they occurred -- this is clearly inconsistent with psychosomatic explanations that posit that religious rituals can engender psychosomatic healing processes.

I think that you should scrutinize your a priori assumptions favoring materialism more closely. What other theory gets a free pass every time it is faced with an observation that directly contradicts its predictions? To make my own position clearer, I don't think that the evidence we have clearly favors any particular religious, spiritual, or other supernatural doctrine. What I claim is that we have much data indicating that naturalism and atheism are probably false, and that some form of supernaturalism is true -- at minimum, received conceptions of naturalism would have to be profoundly reworked to accommodate the findings that I've mentioned, among others.


Am about to be chucked out of Starbucks - so a few brief first thoughts on insects and animals- Ants communicate with each other and have civilisations...my geek bf showed me a video on them. Also Slimemould. Octopuses are anti-social, but if you give them MDMA, they become sociable! Don't know if these things are relevant, but find they challenge my thinking around consciousness.
 
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Kuolema

Student
Jun 27, 2019
187
Found an interesting Tolstoy quote today:
"God is the infinite ALL. Man is only a finite manifestation of Him.
Or better yet:
God is that infinite All of which man knows himself to be a finite part.
God alone exists truly. Man manifests Him in time, space and matter. The more God's manifestation in man (life) unites with the manifestations (lives) of other beings, the more man exists. This union with the lives of other beings is accomplished through love.
God is not love, but the more there is of love, the more man manifests God, and the more he truly exists...
We acknowledge God only when we are conscious of His manifestation in us. All conclusions and guidelines based on this consciousness should fully satisfy both our desire to know God as such as well as our desire to live a life based on this recognition."
 
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Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
As someone who has never experienced any psychedelic drugs, this has always left me wondering. I know it's pretty much impossible to explain a trip to someone who's never experienced it, but what would you say changed about yourself after your first trip? Did you feel happier? Did you feel like a different person? Did it help with regards to suicidal thoughts? I've thought quite seriously about going to Peru and experiencing ayahuasca for myself once I've gotten off the meds I'm on. I don't know if it would be such a good idea considering all my anxiety and depression, but I feel it's something I need to experience before I die.

This is for sure something you should try before you decide to Exit. There is a risk, but on the otherhand there is also a great reward. If you have the funds, you should definitely check it. Plant medicines are the most powerfull medicines for the soul in existence.

 

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