• Hey Guest,

    As you know, censorship around the world has been ramping up at an alarming pace. The UK and OFCOM has singled out this community and have been focusing its censorship efforts here. It takes a good amount of resources to maintain the infrastructure for our community and to resist this censorship. We would appreciate any and all donations.

    Bitcoin Address (BTC): 39deg9i6Zp1GdrwyKkqZU6rAbsEspvLBJt

    Ethereum (ETH): 0xd799aF8E2e5cEd14cdb344e6D6A9f18011B79BE9

    Monero (XMR): 49tuJbzxwVPUhhDjzz6H222Kh8baKe6rDEsXgE617DVSDD8UKNaXvKNU8dEVRTAFH9Av8gKkn4jDzVGF25snJgNfUfKKNC8

KnightOfEnceladus

KnightOfEnceladus

Lost child in time
May 20, 2019
231
@Shamana, i am rapidly running out of patience with you. Read. The paper. You're failing to understand that Vajrayana, and indeed any religious system, did not emerge from a vacuum fully formed; indeed, Buddhism itself is built on Hinduism and shares much of the latter's assumptions as to how the cosmos works.

That paper goes back further still, and points out something that all religions worldwide have comprehended since ancient times. You can view it through a Buddhist lens if you want, but it's ontologically prior to the religion and its teachings, and furthermore is something you seem to have lost from your teachings a long time ago. There is important insight here.

You can consider someone the human embodiment of Green Tara, or whoever else, but that doesn't make it so. You can trust someone 100% but that doesn't make them omniscient, or even necessarily correct. You let your feelings run ahead of your rational mind, and end up chasing down blind alleys of ignorance, because you do not reach outside your restrictive religious milieu and consider other viewpoints that may come up with data you knew nothing about.
 
S

Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
Hav
@Shamana, i am rapidly running out of patience with you. Read. The paper. You're failing to understand that Vajrayana, and indeed any religious system, did not emerge from a vacuum fully formed; indeed, Buddhism itself is built on Hinduism and shares much of the latter's assumptions as to how the cosmos works.

That paper goes back further still, and points out something that all religions worldwide have comprehended since ancient times. You can view it through a Buddhist lens if you want, but it's ontologically prior to the religion and its teachings, and furthermore is something you seem to have lost from your teachings a long time ago. There is important insight here.

You can consider someone the human embodiment of Green Tara, or whoever else, but that doesn't make it so. You can trust someone 100% but that doesn't make them omniscient, or even necessarily correct. You let your feelings run ahead of your rational mind, and end up chasing down blind alleys of ignorance, because you do not reach outside your restrictive religious milieu and consider other viewpoints that may come up with data you knew nothing about.

Have I ever once belittled you? I am getting tired your constant "im running out of steam" etc. It is not needed.
@Shamana, i am rapidly running out of patience with you. Read. The paper. You're failing to understand that Vajrayana, and indeed any religious system, did not emerge from a vacuum fully formed; indeed, Buddhism itself is built on Hinduism and shares much of the latter's assumptions as to how the cosmos works.

That paper goes back further still, and points out something that all religions worldwide have comprehended since ancient times. You can view it through a Buddhist lens if you want, but it's ontologically prior to the religion and its teachings, and furthermore is something you seem to have lost from your teachings a long time ago. There is important insight here.

You can consider someone the human embodiment of Green Tara, or whoever else, but that doesn't make it so. You can trust someone 100% but that doesn't make them omniscient, or even necessarily correct. You let your feelings run ahead of your rational mind, and end up chasing down blind alleys of ignorance, because you do not reach outside your restrictive religious milieu and consider other viewpoints that may come up with data you knew nothing about.

I would not expect any non-buddhist or even a regular buddhist to believe that there exists real life western buddhas and that i have a close relationship with these people IRL. None the less I feel quite confident about it because Ive multitude of times witnessed these people demonstrate the qualities of buddhahood as well as siddhi such as a the rainbow body and transforming their body into the yidam deity such as green tara.

It is not assumption i've pulled out of my ass.
 
Last edited:
KnightOfEnceladus

KnightOfEnceladus

Lost child in time
May 20, 2019
231
I tried to write this to you in PM but there is apparently a 420 character limit:


To be honest, what this makes me suspect is that Buddhism's distinction between "mindstream" and the ego/illusory "self" is actually a forgotten and twisted remnant of the understanding of dual-soul theory. In other words, I suspect the "mindstream" or "buddhanature" is a degenerated understanding of the conscious spirit and the ego/skandhas/whatever are actually the sub/unconscious being talked about in that paper. That may also be the "storehouse consciousness" some branches of Buddhism speak of.

Remember that Buddhism is rooted in Hinduism, which itself has roots in ancient Persia--note the usage of Asura and Daeva, swapped in meaning essentially (daevas were Persia's evil-gods and asuras the good ones). All these religions trace back to the ancient near east. And the ubiquitous belief, still held by many peoples today, is more or less dual-soul theory.

I am honestly not entirely sure what to make of this. It would explain the different stages of the bardo, the Chonyid being the conscious spirit's PoV and the other two being the unconscious. It would also account for why it's so damn difficult for the people reading the Bardo Thodol to get through to the dead person the longer he or she is dead, and explains also why said dead people see worse and worse and worse things as time goes on; their two souls are splitting, and the unconscious one is getting pulled deeper and deeper into itself and away from any force of rationality.

Judgement (and torture...) by Yama and his flunkies is how a Buddhist or Hindu would rationalize the effects of his/her unconscious playing back the evil it did to others in life; it is a literal self-judgment, but because they've been told to expect Yama and external judgment, that's what they are basically dreaming is happening to them. This is also why the BT exhorts people to keep in mind that everything they see is just a product of their own minds, and gives them things to fixate on like a host of different Buddhas and deities; it prevents the subconscious from taking over and wrestling control from the conscious while the two are still somewhat in contact after death.

If anything, what bodhisattvas are doing is acting as integrated beings (i.e., both spirits/souls somehow stayed together) and journeying down into the "hell realm" (which isn't hellish except to the beings in it; it's just grey and dull) to be a sort of surrogate rational-soul to the pure-unconscious-soul beings trapped in the contents of their own minds.

You have stated that karma is not fair, that it just is, but I don't think you bargained for it being like this: it sounds to me like people with naturally self-critical tendencies or those who were unlucky enough to suffer abuse or trauma enter death with a subconscious full of suffering and "go to hell," while someone privileged--or worse, a sociopath who is by nature incapable of feeling remorse--would have had it good not only in life but in death since his/her subconscious is full of good memories.

There is more to it than what we're seeing here, I would suspect. In particular, Buddhism and Hinduism teach that karma exhausts itself naturally over time, else anyone who ended up in a hell realm would be stuck there forever. Not much is ever talked about here as to how that happens, which is one thing that really bothers me about these religions. What this means in the context of dual-soul theory is also a mystery to me, as it sounds like the unconscious shouldn't have any power of rationality at all and should be stuck forever endlessly spiraling deeper and deeper into its own contents. Maybe there is a kind of "half life" concept for the unconscious; maybe eventually they "wind down" and simply don't have the energy to continue tormenting themselves. We can but hope.

If I have to catch the bus soon, and every day it's looking more and more likely, I'm going to try and become one of the beings that helps others. I'd never arrogate the title "bodhisattva" to myself; I'd just want to help how I could.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Soul
L

Lastexit

Member
May 30, 2019
18
I believe our consciousness will leave our body "shell" and this consciousness will go into another "shell" sounds similar to Buddhism reincarnation. I think elon musk said it on Joe rogan show. Can't remember correctly. It's quite fascinating tho if you think about it.

Then one might say where the memories go? By leaving the "shell" the brain which stores our "data" is with our physical body.
Those who reincarnated with memory like some kids 'you can find them online' might be a glitch in the matrix. The most prominent one would be the reincarnation of the Tibetan monk.

This is especially high chance if you are an individual who meditate a lot and are "awakened" meaning those who can use their "Third eye" which is the pineal gland.
50% scientific 50% spiritual.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Soul
S

Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
I believe our consciousness will leave our body "shell" and this consciousness will go into another "shell" sounds similar to Buddhism reincarnation. I think elon musk said it on Joe rogan show. Can't remember correctly. It's quite fascinating tho if you think about it.

Then one might say where the memories go? By leaving the "shell" the brain which stores our "data" is with our physical body.
Those who reincarnated with memory like some kids 'you can find them online' might be a glitch in the matrix. The most prominent one would be the reincarnation of the Tibetan monk.

This is especially high chance if you are an individual who meditate a lot and are "awakened" meaning those who can use their "Third eye" which is the pineal gland.
50% scientific 50% spiritual.

In buddhism all memories can be recollected if you can traverse the 4th jhana of concentration.

 
L

Lastexit

Member
May 30, 2019
18
In buddhism all memories can be recollected if you can traverse the 4th jhana of concentration.


Hmm nice read, there's different articles saying memories can be transfer into AI. Too much different opinion at this time. Nonetheless I think human accomplished too much. It's really a short period of time given the earth is 14 billion years old. I always wonder about the first intellectual on earth having much more advanced technology than us.
 
Righttodie

Righttodie

Maybe in another life
Apr 10, 2019
166
What is after ? No pain that I am facing right now and skipping the next couple decades filled with pain.

That at least I am sure. And that's all I care about. So hanging myself is great, I will skip this desperate charade and spare pain.

Darkness, nothingness, or sleeping through another billion years before being conscious in another life form, whatever it is, is welcome.
Because whatever will come will come anyway, why wait and suffer ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Journeytoletgo
T

Thorn

Wrecked
Jun 8, 2019
284
I have the idea of being a lunatic, because since my early childhood, I have "memories" that are not my own, and I can sense the core personality of a person who is standing next to me, without them speaking a word. I'm not exactly religious, just a Pagan, the Nordic variety.
There are so many things the human brain can't cope with. It is agreed, that there are billions of Solar Systems with Earths just like ours out there. From that standpoint, how advanced is our technology, or how evolved are we really? Every viewpoint might have some truth in it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Soul
S

Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
I tried to write this to you in PM but there is apparently a 420 character limit:


To be honest, what this makes me suspect is that Buddhism's distinction between "mindstream" and the ego/illusory "self" is actually a forgotten and twisted remnant of the understanding of dual-soul theory. In other words, I suspect the "mindstream" or "buddhanature" is a degenerated understanding of the conscious spirit and the ego/skandhas/whatever are actually the sub/unconscious being talked about in that paper. That may also be the "storehouse consciousness" some branches of Buddhism speak of.

Remember that Buddhism is rooted in Hinduism, which itself has roots in ancient Persia--note the usage of Asura and Daeva, swapped in meaning essentially (daevas were Persia's evil-gods and asuras the good ones). All these religions trace back to the ancient near east. And the ubiquitous belief, still held by many peoples today, is more or less dual-soul theory.

I am honestly not entirely sure what to make of this. It would explain the different stages of the bardo, the Chonyid being the conscious spirit's PoV and the other two being the unconscious. It would also account for why it's so damn difficult for the people reading the Bardo Thodol to get through to the dead person the longer he or she is dead, and explains also why said dead people see worse and worse and worse things as time goes on; their two souls are splitting, and the unconscious one is getting pulled deeper and deeper into itself and away from any force of rationality.

Judgement (and torture...) by Yama and his flunkies is how a Buddhist or Hindu would rationalize the effects of his/her unconscious playing back the evil it did to others in life; it is a literal self-judgment, but because they've been told to expect Yama and external judgment, that's what they are basically dreaming is happening to them. This is also why the BT exhorts people to keep in mind that everything they see is just a product of their own minds, and gives them things to fixate on like a host of different Buddhas and deities; it prevents the subconscious from taking over and wrestling control from the conscious while the two are still somewhat in contact after death.

If anything, what bodhisattvas are doing is acting as integrated beings (i.e., both spirits/souls somehow stayed together) and journeying down into the "hell realm" (which isn't hellish except to the beings in it; it's just grey and dull) to be a sort of surrogate rational-soul to the pure-unconscious-soul beings trapped in the contents of their own minds.

You have stated that karma is not fair, that it just is, but I don't think you bargained for it being like this: it sounds to me like people with naturally self-critical tendencies or those who were unlucky enough to suffer abuse or trauma enter death with a subconscious full of suffering and "go to hell," while someone privileged--or worse, a sociopath who is by nature incapable of feeling remorse--would have had it good not only in life but in death since his/her subconscious is full of good memories.

There is more to it than what we're seeing here, I would suspect. In particular, Buddhism and Hinduism teach that karma exhausts itself naturally over time, else anyone who ended up in a hell realm would be stuck there forever. Not much is ever talked about here as to how that happens, which is one thing that really bothers me about these religions. What this means in the context of dual-soul theory is also a mystery to me, as it sounds like the unconscious shouldn't have any power of rationality at all and should be stuck forever endlessly spiraling deeper and deeper into its own contents. Maybe there is a kind of "half life" concept for the unconscious; maybe eventually they "wind down" and simply don't have the energy to continue tormenting themselves. We can but hope.

If I have to catch the bus soon, and every day it's looking more and more likely, I'm going to try and become one of the beings that helps others. I'd never arrogate the title "bodhisattva" to myself; I'd just want to help how I could.

Quote from a website on mindstream continuum

Question: What is the nature of the mindstream that reincarnates from lifetime to lifetime?
Dalai Lama: ...If one understands the term "soul" as a continuum of individuality from moment to moment, from lifetime to lifetime, then one can say that Buddhism also accepts a concept of soul; there is a kind of continuum of consciousness. From that point of view, the debate on whether or not there is a soul becomes strictly semantic. However, in the Buddhist doctrine of selflessness, or "no soul" theory, the understanding is that there is no eternal, unchanging, abiding, permanent self called "soul." That is what is being denied in Buddhism.
Buddhism does not deny the continuum of consciousness. Because of this, we find some Tibetan scholars, such as the Sakya master Rendawa, who accept that there is such a thing as self or soul, the "kangsak ki dak" (Tib. gang zag gi bdag). However, the same word, the "kangsak ki dak," the self, or person, or personal self, or identity, is at the same time denied by many other scholars.
We find diverse opinions, even among Buddhist scholars, as to what exactly the nature of self is, what exactly that thing or entity is that continues from one moment to the next moment, from one lifetime to the next lifetime. Some try to locate it within the aggregates, the composite of body and mind. Some explain it in terms of a designation based on the body and mind composite, and so on.... One of the divisions of [the "Mind-Only"] school maintains there is a special continuum of consciousness called alayavijnana which is the fundamental consciousness.
Healing Anger: The Power of Patience from a Buddhist Perspective

Buddhanature is a our primordial ego-less divine compassionate enlightened nature that becomes known and apparent when our mental obsurations are purifed.

Although Buddha did grow up in a hindu society and trained with hindu yogi's and wisemen, he discovered his own path. The hindu yogi's were absorbed in bliss by abiding in the 4th jhana of concentration. Buddha saw that this was just attachment to mental bliss and not freedom from Samsara. He obtained freedom from samara when he discovered there was not ego.

I don't really know much about Yama and his crew. As buddhist I believe everything is more or less an illusion created by our minds. Thus all these entities might have the forms of the religious tradition we have a karmic connection. Christians might experiencee Jesus in bardo as their spiritual guide and Tibetans might experience Yama judging him by his karma or whatever.

I don't think sociopaths experience positive bardo experiences. The pain they have inflicted in others will at some point be inflicted on them also. I can imaging sociopaths would be terrifyed of the idea of karma and afterlife.

But it's true that it feels very unfair that someone who might have been abusied and traumatised might end up with negative mindstates which might be transfered to the bardo which may lead to a negative rebirth.

That's why it's difficult to be liberated from samsara and why buddha's and bodhisattvas consider walking the path of liberation to be the most meaningfull thing you can do with your life.

Karma exhausts in self in many apparant ways. When we die we've exhausted our karmic fortune of being human fx.
 
KnightOfEnceladus

KnightOfEnceladus

Lost child in time
May 20, 2019
231
About 1/2 of that is actually useful, but the other is self-referential, self-serving squitter especially the bit about psychopaths. If we judge ourselves, and psychopaths are incapable of negative self-judgment, by definition they will not judge themselves negatively; they effectively are karma-free.

"But it's true that it feels very unfair that someone who might have been abusied and traumatised might end up with negative mindstates which might be transfered to the bardo which may lead to a negative rebirth." This is the single worst thing you've said. Let me rephrase that from a Christian viewpoint and see how you like it:

"But it's true that it feels very unfair that someone who was otherwise a good person but didn't accept Jesus in time might end up in Hell burning for eternity." Not that different. Still like it? No, you're missing answers here, answers you're never going to get within Buddhism proper.

You need to expand your worldview and incorporate NDE experience and western after-death communications. Remember the story about all the religions being blind men feeling up an elephant? Buddhists may have one eye open compared to the rest of the world's religions, but they're still saying the elephant is nothing more than a big grey wall that feels oddly warm, if you take my meaning.

" Karma exhausts in self in many apparant ways. When we die we've exhausted our karmic fortune of being human fx." Okay, and what is governing this? These things don't just happen; you are describing a top-down process here, something governed from above, not a purely emergent, naturalistic process. How do you explain those sutras stating each worse cold Naraka is precisely 20 times longer than the one before, or each hot one 8 times longer? Where is that bizarre goemetric progression coming from and who is enforcing it?

@Shamana, do you understand that since we judge ourselves, the very existence of teachings that some people deserve billions, trillions, quadrillions, quintillions of years of abject torment might actually be what creates those conditions?! Under that hypothesis, your much-vaunted teachers may be guilty of unskillful karma of sentencing innocent people to incomprehensible torment for incomprehensible aeons! A crime that makes the Holocaust pale into utter subatomic insignificance by comparison!

No, the old teachers sacrificed truth for the utility of social control, with consequences they themselves can't even begin to imagine. I have no doubt they had good intentions, but those are well-known in the west as the proverbial paving-stones of the road to Hell itself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Soul
S

Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
About 1/2 of that is actually useful, but the other is self-referential, self-serving squitter especially the bit about psychopaths. If we judge ourselves, and psychopaths are incapable of negative self-judgment, by definition they will not judge themselves negatively; they effectively are karma-free.

In the bardo we have very little control unless we have a pretty advanced state of spiritual insight and maturity. The psychopath doesn't get to choose his rebirth and inflicting pain in others is not good karma. He might meet a great deal of terryfing entities in the bardo that will terrify him.

It's true that it feels very unfair that someone who might have been abusied and traumatised might end up with negative mindstates which might be transfered to the bardo which may lead to a negative rebirth." This is the single worst thing you've said. Let me rephrase that from a Christian viewpoint and see how you like it:

"But it's true that it feels very unfair that someone who was otherwise a good person but didn't accept Jesus in time might end up in Hell burning for eternity." Not that different. Still like it? No, you're missing answers here, answers you're never going to get within Buddhism proper.


Perhaps I phrased myself wrongly when I said" t's true that it feels very unfair that someone who might have been abusied and traumatised might end up with negative mindstates which might be transfered to the bardo which may lead to a negative rebirth."

Perhaps I should have said "It is very unfair" rather than "it feels unfair". Samsara is just one big trap where negative thoughts, words and actions lead to negative results and positive thoughts, words and actions lead to positive results.

In general when I look at most of suffering in the world it's mostly pointless. Let's say that someone is born into poverty with a horrible family and with a chronic illness ruining his quality of life. We usually look at it this way.

1. The atheist view: He is just a victim of random circumstance, he had no influence whatsover in ending up in this miserable state. It's all chance.

2. The monotheistic view - It's all part of gods plan. God wanted him to be in that situation as a kind of test or something. Or god is tormenting him because of original sin and he's not a good worshipper.

3. The karmic view(Buddhism and Hinduism) - The man's most unfortunate rebirth is the ripening of bad karma from previous lifetimes, but because he does not have the omniscience to recollect former lives he is unaware of this.

I think we can all agree that in all scenario's it's pretty pointless, but in the karmic perspective there is continuity and just as we can purify negative karma we can also generate merit.

You need to expand your worldview and incorporate NDE experience and western after-death communications. Remember the story about all the religions being blind men feeling up an elephant? Buddhists may have one eye open compared to the rest of the world's religions, but they're still saying the elephant is nothing more than a big grey wall that feels oddly warm, if you take my meaning.

I have an interest in NDE's, but it's worth noting that NDEs's are not actually death experiences, but near-death-experiences. In buddhism when the breath stops and we clinically dead in a western way there is still circulating energies. It's only when the "soul"/"mind" leaves the body that we are dead.

But yeah with NDE''s people have differing experiences. Some see relatives or ancestors and some angel etc. I also remember a seeing a program about NDE's where a woman almost succeeded in suicide who experienced hell and was terrifyed when she came back to life. I also saw another article about a buddhist who had an NDE an experienced hell and believed this beings were sent to hell because they did not believe in god so he became a christian.

Karma exhausts in self in many apparant ways. When we die we've exhausted our karmic fortune of being human fx." Okay, and what is governing this? These things don't just happen; you are describing a top-down process here, something governed from above, not a purely emergent, naturalistic process. How do you explain those sutras stating each worse cold Naraka is precisely 20 times longer than the one before, or each hot one 8 times longer? Where is that bizarre goemetric progression coming from and who is enforcing it?

I honestly don't know the workings of karma other than on an easy apparent way. On many levels we enforce our own karma. If we eat healthy food, cultivate positive mental states, exercise and in general live a healthy good life, we enjoy the merit of having a healthy happy and long life. If we do the opposite, we will have a result with the opposite effect.

On the whole questions of hell realms and their origin's etc. I can't tell. Maybe there are people on dharmawheel who can

do you understand that since we judge ourselves, the very existence of teachings that some people deserve billions, trillions, quadrillions, quintillions of years of abject torment might actually be what creates those conditions?! Under that hypothesis, your much-vaunted teachers may be guilty of unskillful karma of sentencing innocent people to incomprehensible torment for incomprehensible aeons! A crime that makes the Holocaust pale into utter subatomic insignificance by comparison!

A psychopath will not be able to escape the karmic consequenses of his actions whether he judges himself or not..

And innocent people have no need to fear hell realms since they are per definition innocent which means they have not comitted the heavy negative karma to be subject to hell realms.
 
KnightOfEnceladus

KnightOfEnceladus

Lost child in time
May 20, 2019
231
Man, look at you spin.

Face it, you don't have answers, you have dogma. And when confronted with very real problems in your worldview and specifically its narrow scope, you just double down and plug your ears and rationalize.
 
S

Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
Man, look at you spin.

Face it, you don't have answers, you have dogma. And when confronted with very real problems in your worldview and specifically its narrow scope, you just double down and plug your ears and rationalize.

Your entitled to your point of view. I don't have all the answers but I don't think you do either. I debate without insulting you all the time.
Man, look at you spin.

Face it, you don't have answers, you have dogma. And when confronted with very real problems in your worldview and specifically its narrow scope, you just double down and plug your ears and rationalize.

What's such a narrow scope about the buddhists views?

Buddhism includes rebirth since beginningless time.
Buddhism includes infinite universes and infinite beings
Buddhism includes the 6 realms which hosts millions if not billions of different life forms.
Buddhism includes the potential to attain complete infinite freedom and bliss and omniscience.

Yes I know what christians believe, what muslims believe. I know what greeks believed and I know what Norse mythology is about.
I know what atheists and nihillists believe.

In the end all these religions are not compatible. For me, I find buddhism most convincing, for others maybe not. They are free to believe whatever they want.
Man, look at you spin.

Face it, you don't have answers, you have dogma. And when confronted with very real problems in your worldview and specifically its narrow scope, you just double down and plug your ears and rationalize.

do you understand that since we judge ourselves, the very existence of teachings that some people deserve billions, trillions, quadrillions, quintillions of years of abject torment might actually be what creates those conditions?! Under that hypothesis, your much-vaunted teachers may be guilty of unskillful karma of sentencing innocent people to incomprehensible torment for incomprehensible aeons! A crime that makes the Holocaust pale into utter subatomic insignificance by comparison!

You lost me on this one. How do teachings about of hell realms and teachings on causes to be reborn in hell realms cause people to be reborn in hell realms?

Does teachings on avoiding harmful actions and embracing positive actions somehow land people in a horrible predicament?

Apart from that we can drop talking about hell realms. It's not an uplifting subject since nearly all us here wish to die which mean it would be much to uplifting to talk about heaven or heavenly realms.
 
Last edited:
Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,704
How do teachings about of hell realms and teachings on causes to be reborn in hell realms cause people to be reborn in hell realms?

Does teachings on avoiding harmful actions and embracing positive actions somehow land people in a horrible predicament?

Apart from that we can drop talking about hell realms. It's not an uplifting subject since nearly all us here wish to die which mean it would be much to uplifting to talk about heaven or heavenly realms.

@Shamana, I think I can clarify. As you said everything is a product of our minds, and what we encounter after death is very likely to reflect what we've been taught to expect, and we judge ourselves in accordance with what we've been taught. So someone who's been taught to expect dire punishment lasting a squillion years because s/he's commited suicide (for example) may end up having to endure exactly that (in their mindstream). Why teach such cruel things, when they're not real?

But the question that's puzzling me mightily is why Buddhism has accrued so much elaboration - six realms (empty) inhabited by millions of beings (empty), great sangas of bodhisattvas (empty), various Buddhas (empty) and different practices (empty) when perfect wisdom teaches that all this is emptiness?

And a little divergence: The Christian bible teaches that heaven is a city, but NDEs that include that imagery are apparently exceedingly rare. People report experiencing natural surroundings, meadows and such. Are they confusing the Christian heaven with the Hebrew Garden of Eden? And either way, why?
 
Last edited:
S

Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
@Shamana, I think I can clarify. As you said everything is a product of our minds, and what we encounter after death is very likely to reflect what we've been taught to expect, and we judge ourselves in accordance with what we've been taught. So someone who's been taught to expect dire punishment lasting a squillion years because s/he's commited suicide (for example) may end up having to endure exactly that (in their mindstream). Why teach such cruel things, when they're not real?

But the question that's puzzling me mightily is why Buddhism has accrued so much elaboration - six realms (empty) inhabited by millions of beings (empty), great sangas of bodhisattvas (empty), various Buddhas (empty) and different practices (empty) when perfect wisdom teaches that all this is emptiness?

And a little divergence: The Christian bible teaches that heaven is a city, but NDEs that include that imagery are apparently exceedingly rare. People report experiencing natural surroundings, meadows and such. Are they confusing the Christian heaven with the Hebrew Garden of Eden? And either way, why?

Even though everything is our mind, this is not really important until we are quite far upon the path. Karma works. Even though we can say that our current birth as humans is an illusion, it''s all very tangible and feels awfully real doesnt it? It feels good to be healthy and feels awful to be sick. Having money is handy and it's stressfull to be poor. It's incredibly beneficial to respect the law of karma because it's make a huge difference of we and others feel.

Even though all realms may be in nature illusory, I don't it works quite that way that you can get everywhere with belief.
I don't think mass murderers can escape a negative rebirth simply by beliveing their is no afterlife.
Similarily i don't believe that monotheists go to an eternal paradise simply by believing enough that they will.

I don't think buddhism teaches that all suicides lead to rebirth in hell realms, but it's among the many possiblities. I can imagine that anyone who teaches this does it mainly as a warning. To prevent people from comitting suicide and not having to deal with karma that is the product of that action.

At a point in time there were monks in Buddha's sangha who were meditating on the revulsion of the human body. Because of this many of them comitted suicide. When the buddha found out, he made assting and encouraging suicide an offense equal to assisting and encouraging murder that would lead to expulsion of the sangha.

One of the main themes of the teachings of samsara is that death does not garauntee peace or freedom. On some levels and in many cases it can be difficult to argue why killing oneself should have a positive result. But I'm not trying preach. I would also believe that the consequenses of such actions would depend on the situation and the motivation.

I would also agree that if someone is hellbent on comitting suicide no matter what such a person may as well make peace with themselves and if they are spiritual go all in with making a connection to a spiritual guide or deity, but in the end of the day I wouldn't with any amount of certainty know whether that person found peace or not nor take responsibility for it.

There have historically been devotees in the pure land school who have comitted suicide believing they would be reborn in amithabhas pure land through his power, but such conduct has been heavily critised by teachers.

On the teaching of emptiness. It is direct insight into emptiness that produces freedom from samsara, omniscience and ultimate bodhichitta(compassion). By seeing the empty nature of everything you are no longer chanied to cause and effect, birth and death, hope and fear etc.

I honestly don't know a lot about heaven or the garden of Eden. A lot of christians I know believe that earth is the garden of eden and will become so after the apocalypse and they will stay dead until then and then be ressurreced.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Soul
Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,704
Even though everything is our mind, this is not really important until we are quite far upon the path. Karma works. Even though we can say that our current birth as humans is an illusion, it''s all very tangible and feels awfully real doesnt it? It feels good to be healthy and feels awful to be sick. Having money is handy and it's stressfull to be poor. It's incredibly beneficial to respect the law of karma because it's make a huge difference of we and others feel.

Even though all realms may be in nature illusory, I don't it works quite that way that you can get everywhere with belief.
I don't think mass murderers can escape a negative rebirth simply by beliveing their is no afterlife.
Similarily i don't believe that monotheists go to an eternal paradise simply by believing enough that they will.

I don't think buddhism teaches that all suicides lead to rebirth in hell realms, but it's among the many possiblities. I can imagine that anyone who teaches this does it mainly as a warning. To prevent people from comitting suicide and not having to deal with karma that is the product of that action.

At a point in time there were monks in Buddha's sangha who were meditating on the revulsion of the human body. Because of this many of them comitted suicide. When the buddha found out, he made assting and encouraging suicide an offense equal to assisting and encouraging murder that would lead to expulsion of the sangha.

One of the main themes of the teachings of samsara is that death does not garauntee peace or freedom. On some levels and in many cases it can be difficult to argue why killing oneself should have a positive result. But I'm not trying preach. I would also believe that the consequenses of such actions would depend on the situation and the motivation.

I would also agree that if someone is hellbent on comitting suicide no matter what such a person may as well make peace with themselves and if they are spiritual go all in with making a connection to a spiritual guide or deity, but in the end of the day I wouldn't with any amount of certainty know whether that person found peace or not nor take responsibility for it.

There have historically been devotees in the pure land school who have comitted suicide believing they would be reborn in amithabhas pure land through his power, but such conduct has been heavily critised by teachers.

On the teaching of emptiness. It is direct insight into emptiness that produces freedom from samsara, omniscience and ultimate bodhichitta(compassion). By seeing the empty nature of everything you are no longer chanied to cause and effect, birth and death, hope and fear etc.

I honestly don't know a lot about heaven or the garden of Eden. A lot of christians I know people that earth is the garden of eden and will become so after the apocalypse and they will stay dead until then and then be ressurreced.

Thanks, @Shamana. I added the question about Abrahamic images of heaven not so much for you as for other people here who are more familiar with those beliefs than with Buddhism.

I will ponder what you've written. I understand that the things our minds "project" on emptiness seem real, which is why I'd rather learn to project less than be taught to project dazzlingly elaborate systems.

Some branches of Buddhism take a more "no frills" approach, right? Ch'an/Zen Buddhism, for example? It's not hard to imagine historical reasons for that, but that's not the level of thing that's really vital. Perfect wisdom teaches emptiness. Why do we clutter that? Is the clutter beneficial?

What do you make of Taoism?
 
S

Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
Thanks, @Shamana. I added the question about Abrahamic images of heaven not so much for you as for other people here who are more familiar with those beliefs than with Buddhism.

I will ponder what you've written. I understand that the things our minds "project" on emptiness seem real, which is why I'd rather learn to project less than be taught to project dazzlingly elaborate systems.

Some branches of Buddhism take a more "no frills" approach, right? Ch'an/Zen Buddhism, for example? It's not hard to imagine historical reasons for that, but that's not the level of thing that's really vital. Perfect wisdom teaches emptiness. Why do we clutter that? Is the clutter beneficial?

What do you make of Taoism?

Modern Zen practice might be more simple. Traditional Zen also contains a great deal of ritual and chanting.

I don't really understand your question about cluttering emptiness.

I honestly don't know a lot about Taoism, but I like what little I have read about it.
 
Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,704
Modern Zen practice might be more simple. Traditional Zen also contains a great deal of ritual and chanting.

I don't really understand your question about cluttering emptiness.

I honestly don't know a lot about Taoism, but I like what little I have read about it.

The splendor of Taoism is that there's very little to read, and what there is starts with the observation that the truth cannot be written/read about.

By "clutter" I mean the elaborate systems of realms and entities and practices and sutras and miracles and all that. It's all emptiness, so why did all that come to be seen as worth preserving and teaching, instead of teaching perfect wisdom?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: KnightOfEnceladus
S

Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
The splendor of Taoism is that there's very little to read, and what there is starts with the observation that the truth cannot be written/read about.

By "clutter" I mean the elaborate systems of realms and entities and practices and sutras and miracles and all that. It's all emptiness, so why did all that come to be seen as worth preserving and teaching, instead of teaching perfect wisdom?

You need a great deal of spiritual maturity and stability to be able to directly cognize emptiness. The teaching of emptiness can cause many practioners to become depressed if they are not ready for it. Similarily it is forbidden to teach emptiness to children under 8 years old because there it can be damaging for child to begin to grasp at the empty nature of reality.

Also thinking about emptiness and pondering about emptiness is not the same as directly cognizing it. I've read and chanted the heart sutra many times, but I have very little if any direct perception of emptiness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Soul
Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,704
You need a great deal of spiritual maturity and stability to be able to directly cognize emptiness. The teaching of emptiness can cause many practioners to become depressed if they are not ready for it. Similarily it is forbidden to teach emptiness to children under 8 years old because there it can be damaging for child to begin to grasp at the empty nature of reality.

Also thinking about emptiness and pondering about emptiness is not the same as directly cognizing it. I've read and chanted the heart sutra many times, but I have very little if any direct perception of emptiness.

Pondering it doesn't equal experiencing it. So teachers started having learners ponder other things instead, hopefully to guide them toward perfect wisdom, and those "other things to ponder" - metaphors, rituals, disciplines, images - have accrued over the centuries.

Doesn't it seem that people frequently get lost in or distracted by these accoutrements instead of being led to greater understanding? Shouldn't the excess clutter have been discouraged at some point? Instead it's proliferated into this incredibly elaborate system with all its branches and sub-branches. It's often very beautiful but it has horrifying aspects as well. And if it's all just *trappings* - accoutrements, clutter - then how do they lead to perfect wisdom?

If it's forbidden to teach emptiness to children under 8, what *is* taught to children under 8? (All due respect, but Santa Claus comes to mind.) What has been taught to the new Dalai Lamas or Karmapa Lamas before they're 8?
 
Last edited:
Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,704
There have historically been devotees in the pure land school who have comitted suicide believing they would be reborn in amithabhas pure land through his power, but such conduct has been heavily critised by teachers.

On the teaching of emptiness. It is direct insight into emptiness that produces freedom from samsara, omniscience and ultimate bodhichitta(compassion). By seeing the empty nature of everything you are no longer chanied to cause and effect, birth and death, hope and fear etc.

Thanks for this - I shall have a look around for the Pure Land school, and what the grounds for the criticism were. I don't mean to pester you, but what do you personally make of that scenario? Are there compelling reasons to feel sure those devotees were incorrect?

A few posts ago @KnightOfEnceladus gave us a link to an article about NDEs and the duality of the spirit. I'm still reading it, but the part I'm at now is about a "realm of bewildered spirits" who don't realise they could easily escape from their dreary state. It sounds awfully familiar.
 
S

Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
Pondering it doesn't equal experiencing it. So teachers started having learners ponder other things instead, hopefully to guide them toward perfect wisdom, and those "other things to ponder" - metaphors, rituals, disciplines, images - have accrued over the centuries.

Doesn't it seem that people frequently get lost in or distracted by these accoutrements instead of being led to greater understanding? Shouldn't the excess clutter have been discouraged at some point? Instead it's proliferated into this incredibly elaborate system with all its branches and sub-branches. It's often very beautiful but it has horrifying aspects as well. And if it's all just *trappings* - accoutrements, clutter - then how do they lead to perfect wisdom?

If it's forbidden to teach emptiness to children under 8, what *is* taught to children under 8? (All due respect, but Santa Claus comes to mind.) What has been taught to the new Dalai Lamas or Karmapa Lamas before they're 8?

Most veteran practioners feel that these rituals have great value in leading you towards the goal. Just like making virtous asprirations and prayers direct your mind towards the goal. Similary many rituals bring about the blessings of the buddhas. Most rituals serve a good purpose and carry deep meaning. I'm a terrible practioner, or at least these days a non-practioner, but the more I understand rituals, traditions and customs the more I understand their value.

I can imagine that Dalai Lama And Karmapa are expections to the rule since they are considered more or less almost enlightened from birth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Soul
S

Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
Thanks for this - I shall have a look around for the Pure Land school, and what the grounds for the criticism were. I don't mean to pester you, but what do you personally make of that scenario? Are there compelling reasons to feel sure those devotees were incorrect?

A few posts ago @KnightOfEnceladus gave us a link to an article about NDEs and the duality of the spirit. I'm still reading it, but the part I'm at now is about a "realm of bewildered spirits" who don't realise they could easily escape from their dreary state. It sounds awfully familiar.

There is a practice called Phowa which is a meditation method to become enlightened through the process of death. You kind of learn to eject your consciousness through the crown of your head into dewachen(amithabha's pure land). The outer sign of succes is that you get a literal hole in the skull in the crown of your head as a sign that your consciousness will leave the body through that opening when you die and thus be liberated. I went to a Phowa course about 8 years ago with 6000 practioners. I and pretty much everyone else got the hole in the skull as the outer sign of succes.

I was interested in this practice because I was looking for a method where I could commit suicide and have my soul end up in a better or good place. During the teachings someone asked what would happen if they were to commit suicide to become instantly reborn in amithabhas pure land. The teachers answer was pretty strict. He said if you commit suicide phowa won't work and maybe you will be born in Africa.

On the way home from the course in Germany, I hitched a lift with a couple from Ukraine back to Denmark. The day after the course we had to sleep in a buddhist center in Germany. There were no beds for me so I had to sleep in the meditation room. In the room there was a huge picture of the 16th Karmapa wearing the black crown. When I was alone in there it was like Karmapa was totally alive in the picture and kind of like out in the room in a 3d way. He kept performing mudras, bestowing blessings and performing the black ceremony.

I honestly thought I'd gone insane since I had never had visions before or experienced supramundane phenomena but I just kind went with it. Since the 16th Karmapa is the called the wishfulling jewel, which means that whatever wishes you say make in his presence will become true in one way or another, I made the specific wish that I want to reborn in Amithabhas pure land even if I commit suicide.

What I just got from him was a very strong feeling of No, he cannot grant that. Buddha's are said to be the most powerfull beings in the universe, but they are not omnipotent, so felt in this case he could not grant my wish.

About a year ago there was a woman from a french vajrayana sangha who comitted suicide and left a post on her facebook page saying something like "Sorry friends, I am leaving this life, I wish to be reborn in dewachen where I can benefit all beings. Please do Phowa and purification rituals for me."

One of my buddhists friends asked his Khenpo(which is like somone who has a masters degree in buddhist theory and practice)whether it works like that and the Khenpo replied no and that the woman may have created the karma to commit suicide in hundreds of lifetimes.

Similary my teacher and teachers have stressed that merit(goodness) is a requirement for rebirth in dewachen and have been dismissive about comitting suicide and ending up there. So in general the people I trust to know their stuff will not recommend that course of action. There are stories though. There was a monk in the pure land school who couldn't stop creating bad karma, so he kept begging buddha amithabha to let him die and be reborn in his pure land. Eventually Amithabha accepted his request and he died and was reborn in the pure land according to the story.

So there are stories, but as a rule of thumb, it is maybe not wise to pin all your hopes on that course of action. I don't posess the super knowledge to directly perceive where a persons soul journeys to have after death so i'm not an authority on whether people in the pure land school who have committed suicide had their wishes fulfilled or not.

If I am to commit suicide, I will certainly pin my energies on improving my karmic connection with Amithabta and Guru Rinpoche since they can help me in the bardo, but it would not even be certain that I would traverse the bardo at all. Again this would be my own course of action of just pinning my hopes on something or someone, it's not necesssarily something that would work at all.
 
  • Love
  • Like
Reactions: adam&eve and Soul
Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,704
Thank you for all that, @Shamana. I'll be rereading that for a long time.

For now just one semi-joke: I was born in Africa - is that really that bad?!
 
  • Like
Reactions: adam&eve
S

Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
Thank you for all that, @Shamana. I'll be rereading that for a long time.

For now just one semi-joke: I was born in Africa - is that really that bad?!

Haha of course not. But it's the meaning that counts. Tough circumstances and all that. Of course there are plenty people born in wealthy countries who are afflicted by all kinds of stuff and Africans who are healthy and have peace of mind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Soul
Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,704
Thanks for the reassurance - I was worried for a minute there. o.0

On a sideways note, I believe a fair number of Abrahamic scholars believe Yeshua/Jesus spent some years studying in India. Do Buddhist scholars concur, or not care much either way?
 
S

Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
Thanks for the reassurance - I was worried for a minute there. o.0

On a sideways note, I believe a fair number of Abrahamic scholars believe Yeshua/Jesus spent some years studying in India. Do Buddhist scholars concur, or not care much either way?

Buddhist scholars don't really care to be honest. In India and Tibet's spiritual traditions there have been thousands if not millions of yogic practioners who had similar compassion and miraclous powers like Jesus. Also since Buddhist's don't believe in a omnipotent creator god there isn't really a debate whether Jesus is/was the son of God.

There a plenty of western buddhists and spiritual people who believe that Jesus went to India and became enlightened. One of my best buddhist friends who I consider to very enlightened, the chanter of the heart sutra I shared, believes that Jesus either was Guru Rinpoche or an emanation of Guru Rinpoche who came to unite the jewish tribes under a compassionate message.

It's not personally something that I have given a lot of thought, but in the periods, where I have delved deeper into buddhist practice the more I have come to appreciate Jesus and christianity.

Just as I have in certain periods have experienced visions and blessings of Buddha's, I become more open and appreciative that devout christians experience the same with Jesus Christ or "God".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Orin and Soul

Similar threads

pleaseiwanttogo
Replies
0
Views
340
Suicide Discussion
pleaseiwanttogo
pleaseiwanttogo
6
Replies
23
Views
643
Offtopic
Sunset Limited
Sunset Limited
derpyderpins
Replies
28
Views
848
Politics & Philosophy
derpyderpins
derpyderpins