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Britvik

Britvik

Pro-choice
Mar 1, 2022
143
It's up to each person to decide whether to end their life, obviously. So that point is not up for discussion.

I want to discuss whether someone should.

Basically, I think there are good and bad reasons to end one's life. I also think there are few good reasons. In my opinion, one such reason would be that you are experiencing unbearable, insurmountable suffering. For example, a terminal illness that involves life-diminishing symptoms.

If you can add to this list, please explain.
 
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FuneralCry

FuneralCry

Just wanting some peace
Sep 24, 2020
43,293
The way that I see it, everyone has different limits as to what they can cope with. Something may seem insignificant to one person, but can ruin the life of another. I do not believe that there is such a thing as good or bad reasons to ctb, nobody needs to justify their reasons for leaving this world anyway.
 
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rabbitlinnt10

rabbitlinnt10

my life is a clown show 🤡
Mar 29, 2022
58
Honestly my logic my whole life regarding suicide has been, most plausible option is if every second of your life from when you go to sleep and wake up is torment and agony. Then theres rly no reason to live at that point because it gets rid of "self help" or "do favourite hobbies" advice and long term treatment for mental/physical illnesses are not allocated for people who are living in poverty
 
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lostmylove

lostmylove

Specialist
Apr 1, 2022
304
I lost the love of my life. I'm really struggling to cope, my partner would want me to be happy, enjoy money and carry on, even look after his family. But I can't in jus so fucking broken
 
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F

Freedomindeath4me

Student
Apr 6, 2022
106
Having a severe mental health condition that has left you utterly debilitated.
 
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xo777

are we almost there?
Apr 5, 2022
170
If someone is willing to take their own life then their reasoning must be valid.
 
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Cathy Ames

Cathy Ames

Cautionary Tale
Mar 11, 2022
2,109
Sorry, I am on a watch for suicide encouraging posts.
Yeah. I wasn't doing that. I was offering to do the opposite. :-/ I'll delete, and you can delete replies.
 
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YourNeighbor

Arcanist
Jul 22, 2021
423
I'm fine with the idea of rational suicide. Unless someone has dependents, it is morally acceptable in the Gospel According to Me to suicide for any personal reason (using suicide to harm another would not fit the bill) or for no reason at all.

That said, capacity is required for any rational choice. That means more maturity and wisdom than simply being able to buy cigarettes or vote. Without life experience, the decision to suicide is uninformed and so cannot be rational.
 
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Al_stargate

Al_stargate

I was once a pretty angel
Mar 4, 2022
743
My reason is disfigurement after botched surgery. Just can't go on like this. I was perfectly happy before and now my quality of life is shit. I think that's a decent reason.
 
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Superdeterminist

Superdeterminist

Enlightened
Apr 5, 2020
1,875
I don't see it as being my place to say when someone should or shouldn't ctb. If a quadruple amputee on ventilation wants to continue living, I respect that. If someone who is young and perfectly healthy wants to ctb because they've just had enough of the world, I respect that too.

I respect all attempts to persuade people to continue living, but not when they involve blocking of access to methods, or use of force. I also understand that encouragement of ctb is problematic, because most people who ctb don't want to hear others goading them to die, and they aren't making the choice happily, rather they feel they must.
 
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M

myopybyproxy

flickerbeat \\ gibberish-noise
Dec 18, 2021
864
I'm fine with the idea of rational suicide. Unless someone has dependents, it is morally acceptable in the Gospel According to Me to suicide for any personal reason (using suicide to harm another would not fit the bill) or for no reason at all.

That said, capacity is required for any rational choice. That means more maturity and wisdom than simply being able to buy cigarettes or vote. Without life experience, the decision to suicide is uninformed and so cannot be rational.
What is life experience? Slippery slope here.
 
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Britvik

Britvik

Pro-choice
Mar 1, 2022
143
If someone is willing to take their own life then their reasoning must be valid.

Isn't it possible for someone to be in an irrational frame of mind? If so, surely we wouldn't assume their reasoning was valid?

I've heard of people not being held accountable for their actions in a court of law because they were experiencing a mental disorder that compromised their agency.

Wouldn't you want to at least try and help someone suffering from a mental disorder before supporting them in ending their life?
Having a severe mental health condition that has left you utterly debilitated.

Do you agree that having a mental health condition can compromise someone's ability to make a rational decision?
 
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UnravelingWinter

UnravelingWinter

I wish I was a sunflower
Mar 19, 2022
206
All suffering is meaningless. In the end, it's up to the individual to decide. I've wanted to die since I was 12. Here I am, 14 years later still wanting to die, only wishing that I had succeeded years ago. At what point does it become justifiable for someone to end their life? If someone's suffering but doesn't have the 'life experience' to make the rational decision to end their life, are they just supposed to keep suffering until they meet some magical threshold of 'years endured' before they should be allowed that choice?

Like FuneralCry said, any one of us could swap places and might find the other person's suffering unendurable.
 
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YourNeighbor

Arcanist
Jul 22, 2021
423
What is life experience? Slippery slope here.
There is no slippery slope here, you're misusing the term. This thread is about when a person *should* commit suicide, and my premise is simple, and fundamental to the concept of rational suicide. A rational choice requires capacity and information.

If someone does not have enough information to support their belief as to why suicide is their best option, in my view (I don't have the power to enforce it, obviously) they should not commit suicide. If their belief is mistaken, the person would not be able to correct it after the fact.

A choice without capacity and information is not really a choice.
If someone is willing to take their own life then their reasoning must be valid.
This is circular reasoning, and quite absurd. You could use this reasoning to justify any act at all.
 
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myopybyproxy

flickerbeat \\ gibberish-noise
Dec 18, 2021
864
There is no slippery slope here, you're misusing the term. This thread is about when a person *should* commit suicide, and my premise is simple, and fundamental to the concept of rational suicide. A rational choice requires capacity and information.

If someone does not have enough information to support their belief as to why suicide is their best option, in my view (I don't have the power to enforce it, obviously) they should not commit suicide. If their belief is mistaken, the person would not be able to correct it after the fact.

A choice without capacity and information is not really a choice.
I am not misusing the term. How do you define capacity and information? Where do you draw the line?
 
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C

cleveland2011

Member
Feb 12, 2022
46
If someone is willing to take their own life then their reasoning must be valid.

Disagree. That someone may be too young, may not know there are other options.

Like I get the disease thing as I'm terminal and suffering 24/7. But I once had another disease that warranted suicide as well I thought there was no cure. We found what was really wrong with me, cured it. I was fine in 2 months.

I've heard many suicidal stories turn around and people are happy they stayed. Just because someone is suicidal doesn't mean it's the right thing.
 
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Al Cappella

Al Cappella

Are we there yet?
Feb 2, 2022
888
Also, just because you want something, doesn't mean you're going to get it- especially if other ppl are involved. There has to be a demonstrable level of need, and that's established over time.
 
Insomniac

Insomniac

𝔄 𝔲 𝔱 𝔦 𝔰 𝔪
May 21, 2021
1,357
I believe any reason is a good enough reason because life has no intrinsic value. its just evolution selfishly following its curse I mean course
 
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Shadow777

Shadow777

Member
Oct 16, 2021
19
If someone is done with their life. Like they achieved all they wanted to and has become bored with life and or just tired with the general worries of life. I see this a lot in old people and have heard it in some young people not as much though.
 
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Y

YourNeighbor

Arcanist
Jul 22, 2021
423
I am not misusing the term. How do you define capacity and information? Where do you draw the line?
Yes, you are misusing the term. A slippery slope is a logical fallacy that suggests if one minor condition is satisfied, it would lead to a much larger and unforeseen (and unconnected) consequence.

Nothing about suggesting that capacity and information are required for a rational choice is a slippery slope--it's part of the definition what a rational rational choice is. What precisely that means depends very much on context. A three year old probably can rationally decide that she wants a lollipop, especially if she had one before and knows what it is. In the context of suicide, more is required for a rational choice. Where the line is depends on the person and her circumstances.
 
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X

xo777

are we almost there?
Apr 5, 2022
170
Isn't it possible for someone to be in an irrational frame of mind? If so, surely we wouldn't assume their reasoning was valid?

I've heard of people not being held accountable for their actions in a court of law because they were experiencing a mental disorder that compromised their agency.

Wouldn't you want to at least try and help someone suffering from a mental disorder before supporting them in ending their life?


Do you agree that having a mental health condition can compromise someone's ability to make a rational decision?
Who are we to judge what and what's not a valid reason for someone to take their life. I don't think many suicidal people are in the right frame of mind, they aren't thinking rationally we are just desperate for the pain to end.

Suicide is a very personal decision. If they reach out for help or we can reach them and they want the help then yes of course I think we should support them in every way we can. At the end of the day they have to want the help we can't always force them into therapy and shoving pills into their hands.

I do agree that mental health can compromise the ability to make a rational decision yes.
Disagree. That someone may be too young, may not know there are other options.

Like I get the disease thing as I'm terminal and suffering 24/7. But I once had another disease that warranted suicide as well I thought there was no cure. We found what was really wrong with me, cured it. I was fine in 2 months.

I've heard many suicidal stories turn around and people are happy they stayed. Just because someone is suicidal doesn't mean it's the right thing.
I'm glad they were able to cure you but that is your situation it is not one that applies to every person. If someone is done then they are done and if they want to leave fair enough I understand. If they stay good for them.

Yeah sometimes things change and they are happy they stayed but other times they regret their failed attempts and wish they would have succeeded.

Young or old they have the right to go.
There is no slippery slope here, you're misusing the term. This thread is about when a person *should* commit suicide, and my premise is simple, and fundamental to the concept of rational suicide. A rational choice requires capacity and information.

If someone does not have enough information to support their belief as to why suicide is their best option, in my view (I don't have the power to enforce it, obviously) they should not commit suicide. If their belief is mistaken, the person would not be able to correct it after the fact.

A choice without capacity and information is not really a choice.

This is circular reasoning, and quite absurd. You could use this reasoning to justify any act at all.
I could use it to justify any act but i'm not since that is not the current topic.
 
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Britvik

Britvik

Pro-choice
Mar 1, 2022
143
Who are we to judge what and what's not a valid reason for someone to take their life. I don't think many suicidal people are in the right frame of mind, they aren't thinking rationally we are just desperate for the pain to end.

Suicide is a very personal decision. If they reach out for help or we can reach them and they want the help then yes of course I think we should support them in every way we can. At the end of the day they have to want the help we can't always force them into therapy and shoving pills into their hands.

I do agree that mental health can compromise the ability to make a rational decision yes.

It's up to us whether we end our life. Discussing the reasons for doing so, is harmless. And, if it causes someone to reconsider their reasons, it might even be beneficial.

I've already given an example of what I think is a good reason. For comparison, here's what I think constitutes a bad reason: Someone forgot their umbrella and their hair got wet. Even if they hated their hair getting wet I would say that it didn't provide a good reason to end their life. I've chosen an extreme example to make a point, i.e. there are bad reasons.
 
Oblivion Access

Oblivion Access

I don't know anything
Jul 5, 2019
333
I honestly think staying alive requires justification more than dying. It's all just so unnecessary. Life is purely for its own sake, any meaning is made up by us. Why not leave if being here is joyless?
 
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X

xo777

are we almost there?
Apr 5, 2022
170
It's up to us whether we end our life. Discussing the reasons for doing so, is harmless. And, if it causes someone to reconsider their reasons, it might even be beneficial.

I've already given an example of what I think is a good reason. For comparison, here's what I think constitutes a bad reason: Someone forgot their umbrella and their hair got wet. Even if they hated their hair getting wet I would say that it didn't provide a good reason to end their life. I've chosen an extreme example to make a point, i.e. there are bad reasons.
Discussing it is harmless yes.
Reasons pile up, I have attempted over small things that wouldn't seem like a good reason to you i'm sure but in that moment I had a reason.
"Good" or "bad" reasons were equal when I wanted to go.

I agree it's good to discuss reasons and to see if they can be fixed easily. It probably would of helped me in some moments if someone would of been the logical voice for me. Yeah you are right sometimes it takes someone being blunt to really snap someone out of it I mean not in all cases but it could help enough.
Thank you for taking the time to reply and help me understand what you meant btw
 
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Britvik

Britvik

Pro-choice
Mar 1, 2022
143
I believe any reason is a good enough reason because life has no intrinsic value. its just evolution selfishly following its curse I mean course

In another thread, about a French family's collective suicide, you said:
Yeah, the parents coerced their children. It was a murder-suicide by deranged parents. End of story.

If life has no intrinsic value, why did you differentiate between how these people died, and label the parents "deranged"? They were just lives, ending. Why care how?
I honestly think staying alive requires justification more than dying. It's all just so unnecessary. Life is purely for its own sake, any meaning is made up by us. Why not leave if being here is joyless?
Existence is the status quo. To change something requires more of a reason than letting it be.
 
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M

myopybyproxy

flickerbeat \\ gibberish-noise
Dec 18, 2021
864
Yes, you are misusing the term. A slippery slope is a logical fallacy that suggests if one minor condition is satisfied, it would lead to a much larger and unforeseen (and unconnected) consequence.

Nothing about suggesting that capacity and information are required for a rational choice is a slippery slope--it's part of the definition what a rational rational choice is. What precisely that means depends very much on context. A three year old probably can rationally decide that she wants a lollipop, especially if she had one before and knows what it is. In the context of suicide, more is required for a rational choice. Where the line is depends on the person and her circumstances.
I stand by my prior statements. Once you bring rationality into the discussion as a caveat, it is a slippery slope to the conclusion of suicide itself as irrational under all circumstances. Some argue that the decision to die can never be rational. By that definition, anyone who chooses to die is irrational.

If you do not define information and capacity, that makes age a useless variable when it comes to judging others' decisions. If the former two variables depend on the individual, you admit that age is an arbitrary condition - as it is immaterial to the other two conditions, which can be attained at largely any age. Otherwise you must set predefined notions of what is an acceptable age and what constitutes adequate information and viable capacity in order to judge another's decision as rational.

Saying that it is part of the definition is circular logic - you still have not defined the boundaries of capacity and information.

Can an autistic or developmentally disabled person make a rational choice to die? What about someone five or ten years younger than you? Just because they have not gone through your particular life trajectory does not make their decision any less valid. If someone's suffering is unbearable to them and they see no point to living for the sake of placating others, denying them bodily autonomy on the basis of lack of satisfying some externally-imposed condition is a violation of human rights.

People have the right to do things that you think are stupid. That is the beauty of free will. What you think about that is moot - it is the individual's choice. I do personally think that people ought to exhaust every possible treatment option available to them before giving up. But I am not going to pretend I can understand their daily struggle nor that I would choose any differently were I in their position. And if a person chooses to reject treatment, that is their choice as well and ought to be respected.
 
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YourNeighbor

Arcanist
Jul 22, 2021
423
I stand by my prior statements. Once you bring rationality into the discussion as a caveat, it is a slippery slope to the conclusion of suicide itself as irrational under all circumstances.
This is getting silly. The slippery slope fallacy about why rationality should not be a consideration in choosing suicide is entirely yours. Note I never suggested suicide is always irrational. Suicide can be rational even in the extreme example of someone having a good healthy life, but merely deciding they no longer wish to live. Again, provided capacity and information.
Some argue that the decision to die can never be rational. By that definition, anyone who chooses to die is irrational.
So you start with a slippery slope, and double down with a straw man. I never suggested that anyone who chooses to die is irrational. That is the opposite of my position--I clearly stated I think suicide can be rational.
If you do not define information and capacity, that makes age a useless variable when it comes to judging others' decisions. If the former two variables depend on the individual, you admit that age is an arbitrary condition - as it is immaterial to the other two conditions, which can be attained at largely any age. Otherwise you must set predefined notions of what is an acceptable age and what constitutes adequate information and viable capacity in order to judge another's decision as rational.

Saying that it is part of the definition is circular logic - you still have not defined the boundaries of capacity and information.
There is nothing circular in suggesting that what is sufficient capacity and information to make a rational choice depends on the situation. It seems you don't understand what circular reasoning means either.
Can an autistic or developmentally disabled person make a rational choice to die?
Of course, though it depends like with everyone else. If they have the capacity and information, absolutely.
People have the right to do things that you think are stupid.
The OP's thread was about when *should* someone commit suicide, not when does someone have a right to do so. Perhaps this confusion is driving your responses to my post.
That is the beauty of free will.
There are questions about what it means to exercise free will if one has neither the capacity nor the information to do so. I can't explain those debates to you here, but feel free to start with Google.
What you think about that is moot - it is the individual's choice.
What I think about when someone has a right to or when someone should commit suicide are both moot questions, as I have zero control over anyone's choice. So what? This whole thread is calling for moot opinions.
 
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Cathy Ames

Cathy Ames

Cautionary Tale
Mar 11, 2022
2,109
It's up to us whether we end our life. Discussing the reasons for doing so, is harmless. And, if it causes someone to reconsider their reasons, it might even be beneficial.

I've already given an example of what I think is a good reason. For comparison, here's what I think constitutes a bad reason: Someone forgot their umbrella and their hair got wet. Even if they hated their hair getting wet I would say that it didn't provide a good reason to end their life. I've chosen an extreme example to make a point, i.e. there are bad reasons.
The person has a disabling mental health condition and has been living under extreme financial stress for many years. The person lives in a first-world country where not everyone gets healthcare, disability is difficult to get without major support, disability is not actually enough to live on anyhow, and the vast majority of "comfortable" people have no understanding of what it is like not to be. The person (some years ago) attempted treatment at their own considerable expense. Medications didn't work and/or had medically adverse side effects. Therapy was counterproductive. There was no more money to spend. The person holds an exploitative WFH job (no benefits, not full time, periodic layoffs), becomes more and more isolated. The person is at a point where ADLs (bathing/laundry) are somehow "impossible," and leaving the house to be among people is extremely stressful for multiple reasons (have to bathe, have to have clean clothing, have to manage to show up somewhere on time, have to be around people). The person is at a point where the only thing getting done is work. The person has to leave the house for an appointment and is worried because they know using the time and ENERGY (physical and mental) to get ready to go, go do it, then recover from it will make it hard to finish work. For superstitious reasons/self comfort/effort to bolster self esteem, the person decides to wear the wool fedora given to them by their deceased grandfather.

Despite best efforts (that were exhausting), the person is late to the appointment, and there are—at a minimum--social consequences for that (palpable disapproval, the knowledge that others were inconvenienced, etc.). The appointment is exhausting/stressful/difficult due to trying to front being a normal person, failing, knowing they were failing, knowing others were disturbed, shame, etc. On the way home, it starts raining, person forgets they're wearing the wool fedora while ruminating about awkward moments during the appointment, their distress over their inability to be on time, their distress that others do not understand loss of executive function, etc. The person then starts having negative thoughts about their inability to plan ahead enough to check the weather. Similar things have happened in the past. The person thinks they should have learned from past experiences and is feeling self-loathing/disappointment. The person realizes they're wearing the hat, and the hat has been ruined by the rain. They're devastated. Maybe the hat could be resurrected by a hat expert somewhere, but that is expensive and there is no spare money. There is no one to talk to who will actually understand why the loss of their grandfather's wool hat is devastating. For years, there has been no one to talk to because the issues are unrelatable, and the explanations are complicated and invite judgment.

The person commits suicide. Out of being exhausted, having trouble concentrating, whatever, the note simply says, "Well, I forgot my umbrella today, and my hat got ruined. That has caused me to realize that my life truly is not worth the effort of living it." People talk about the way this person died by suicide for a stupid, impulsive reason.

Yes, I know the example was about hair getting wet and not about a hat getting ruined. I'd guess there might be a situation where getting your hair wet is also a big deal for some reason.
 
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D

Deformationalplagio

Born deformed
Dec 28, 2019
378
It's up to each person to decide whether to end their life, obviously. So that point is not up for discussion.

I want to discuss whether someone should.

Basically, I think there are good and bad reasons to end one's life. I also think there are few good reasons. In my opinion, one such reason would be that you are experiencing unbearable, insurmountable suffering. For example, a terminal illness that involves life-diminishing symptoms.

If you can add to this list, please explain.
Im deformed, basically no life, is that good enough for ya?
 
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sharky

sharky

Lost
Dec 15, 2021
283
I have severe depression, chronic pain and itching all over the body, no family, abused as a child, every day I feel heartbroken and lonely. I think some of these are good reasons.
 
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