You have to recover for yourself!

[Cloud Busting]

What the hell… does that even mean?

I mean I've certainly entered recovery to avoid consequences or to get people off my back, and most certainly it wasn't what I truly wanted at the time.

Even now though, as a person who genuinely wants to recover, and increase my wellbeing, this still leaves me dumbfounded. Who even am I? Do I even matter as a tiny speck in the universe? Why would I do things for me? I do things because all people are the fabric of the universe. My bothers and sisters, my family, my tribe, the earth, the cosmos… these are grander for me. I want to live for these things, not for myself. I'm nothing special. To live for myself seems… sad and shallow

Yet I hear it all the time- especially in the context of addiction- that I ought to recover for me. It feels like such a neoliberal, capitalistic "pull yourself by your bootstraps" mentality to me. I live for a grander purpose, for the collective greater good, not for myself… individualism doesn't appeal to me. Yet if I say this to normies it's as if I've grown two heads.

I don't think these are bad reasons to acquire motivation at all. I wonder what yall think, since you guys seem to dig a lil deeper than the average populace

 

[timf]

The question of identity and purpose can be difficult to get a handle on. Some offer perspectives that serve their purposes. Obviously communists want us to see our purpose as serving the collective. Capitalists might want us to see ourselves as consumers. Even in therapeutic circles one often encounters those who issue directives ("you should"). Consideration of individual agency can suggest experiments or courses of action, but leave room for individual choice.

One can understand well intentioned exhortations to motivate. However, if one sees in these that which is not relatable, one is left to discover their own motivation. There are transient motivations such as looking for food when one is hungry. However longer term motivation can com from career ambitions, the need for money, or a hunger to seek truth, grow in knowledge and understanding, or even to be able to help others.

There are two basic views of the universe. The evolutionary view that life has no larger purpose which leaves one finding his own purpose. The alternative is a creator view that leaves one trying to discover what a creator would be looking for. Making either of these even more difficult are all the many ways people have contributed confusion.

 

[Pale_Rider]

As a person with DID I have been through things that have irrecoverable cut me to my core. PTSD has also traumatized me further. I think I'm as recovered as I can ever be. My thought will always be dark, and far from the mainstream, Indeed frightening to the mainstream. Science itself will say there is no fixing DID, and truth be told why would I want parts of me killed off?

 

[Beavisandbutthead]

Whatever works for you. Personally I want to recover for myself and I don't care about the universe.

 

[Cloud Busting]

Whatever works for you. Personally I want to recover for myself and I don't care about the universe.

Why for yourself!

 

[Anonymousa]

Yea I totally understand not to be able to understand recovering for oneself. While I would like my life to be easier for myself, I wouldn't do this just for myself at all as I don't see the point in it when I see death as less risky and equal to a good life as there I don't have to suffer at all forever. I however would want to live for others as I feel like my existence is of some value and be able to lessen the suffering of others which I think I should do if I can.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I suppose because- in terms of action or, non action- we ultimately have the final say. I used to struggle a great deal with binge eating. I read a self help book that put it in very basic but brutal terms- YOU ultimately choose whether you overeat or not.

When it comes to recovery- there are probably things we know help and harm us. Ultimately- we have control over whether or not to do those things. We could go to a therapist and then, ignore all their advice. Not to say we should just do all we're told but, I think a person has to be open to recovery for it to work.

I'm a bit of an imposter in this section to be honest. I'm not really aiming for recovery. I just look for maintenance tips here. But, in my case- it would waste a therapist's time and my own if I went because, I'm simply not invested in it. I likely woudn't be that open to their suggestions or things to try etc.

As for the underlying motivation- recovering for ourself or, for others. Maybe that matters less. Still- the motivation needs to be constant. I lost a lot of weight in the hopes of impressing a guy once. They eventually got a girlfriend and I put all the weight back on! It would have been more sustainable had I done it for myself. So, if we're recovering for the sake of this or that person/ relationship- it probably also needs to be stable for the recovery to be stable. That's my feeling anyway.

 

[Beavisandbutthead]

Why for yourself!

I want to be happy and fulfilled. I can't save others. Each to their own.

 

[Pale_Rider]

I can remembering being in a drug program where they said; "faking it to make it is a valid start".

 

[Cloud Busting]

I suppose because- in terms of action or, non action- we ultimately have the final say. I used to struggle a great deal with binge eating. I read a self help book that put it in very basic but brutal terms- YOU ultimately choose whether you overeat or not.

When it comes to recovery- there are probably things we know help and harm us. Ultimately- we have control over whether or not to do those things. We could go to a therapist and then, ignore all their advice. Not to say we should just do all we're told but, I think a person has to be open to recovery for it to work.

I'm a bit of an imposter in this section to be honest. I'm not really aiming for recovery. I just look for maintenance tips here. But, in my case- it would waste a therapist's time and my own if I went because, I'm simply not invested in it. I likely woudn't be that open to their suggestions or things to try etc.

As for the underlying motivation- recovering for ourself or, for others. Maybe that matters less. Still- the motivation needs to be constant. I lost a lot of weight in the hopes of impressing a guy once. They eventually got a girlfriend and I put all the weight back on! It would have been more sustainable had I done it for myself. So, if we're recovering for the sake of this or that person/ relationship- it probably also needs to be stable for the recovery to be stable. That's my feeling anyway.

Now I'm wondering if the real question isn't who you're recovering for, but if your motivation is long or short term. Obviously relationships come and go. My sister is one of the reasons I want to recover. She could die tomorrow. We could have a falling out in the unseen future. It serves a driving purpose now, but clearly I'll need other reasons to stay healthy. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, I guess.

not everyone perceives it this way but I view exiting or abusing substances as becoming a victim of one's circumstances. I want to rise above. And pay back the community in some way. Life is suffering, and I view life's purpose as causing the least amount of suffering for the greater good. Basically @Namelesa echos my sentiments exactly. Recovery to me is a way to eliminate suffering for others, as my pain affects all living things that interact with me. We're all in this shit together namaste hippie nonsense basically lol

I guess it depends on what "yourself" means. Living for nature- the sun, the moon, the trees, the lakes, the rivers, and the stars- doesn't feel like living for me because these things are grander than me. But ultimately I think I agree with your message.

Chasing pleasure and avoiding pain have just gotten me nowhere, and it's a trap I'm learning to evade. Call that whatever you want, but I think it's an everlasting and true reason to recover.

I can remembering being in a drug program where they said; "faking it to make it is a valid start".

Why would they say that? Because they know most people there don't want to recover and are either court ordered or heavily pushed to do so by a third party? lol

What was your experience like?

 

[Pale_Rider]

Now I'm wondering if the real question isn't who you're recovering for, but if your motivation is long or short term. Obviously relationships come and go. My sister is one of the reasons I want to recover. She could die tomorrow. We could have a falling out in the unseen future. It serves a driving purpose now, but clearly I'll need other reasons to stay healthy. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, I guess.

not everyone perceives it this way but I view exiting or abusing substances as becoming a victim of one's circumstances. I want to rise above. And pay back the community in some way. Life is suffering, and I view life's purpose as causing the least amount of suffering for the greater good. Basically @Namelesa echos my sentiments exactly. Recovery to me is a way to eliminate suffering for others, as my pain affects all living things that interact with me. We're all in this shit together namaste hippie nonsense basically lol

I guess it depends on what "yourself" means. Living for nature- the sun, the moon, the trees, the lakes, the rivers, and the stars- doesn't feel like living for me because these things are grander than me. But ultimately I think I agree with your message.

Chasing pleasure and avoiding pain have just gotten me nowhere, and it's a trap I'm learning to evade. Call that whatever you want, but I think it's an everlasting and true reason to recover.




Why would they say that? Because they know most people there don't want to recover and are either court ordered or heavily pushed to do so by a third party? lol

What was your experience like?

I didn't last long, but yes agree. Stay, and be brainwashed is the basics I would think. Just repeat what you are told to repeat. Thats how drug programs work. If you dont you may sweep a lot of floors, or get kicked out! oh my. lol

 

[Cloud Busting]

I didn't last long, but yes agree. Stay, and be brainwashed is the basics I would think. Just repeat what you are told to repeat. Thats how drug programs work. If you dont you may sweep a lot of floors, or get kicked out! oh my. lol

Was it rehab? And your choice or were you mandated?

 

[Pale_Rider]

Was it rehab? And your choice or were you mandated?

Kind of . I was locked up, and it was a chance to get out early.( before I was even sentenced ) I screwed it up cause I cant do that, but oh well I know what it is now. har har.

 

[Cloud Busting]

Kind of . I was locked up, and it was a chance to get out early.( before I was even sentenced ) I screwed it up cause I cant do that, but oh well I know what it is now. har har.

Ah so court ordered lol. I went to an IOP. I didn't get locked up but it was either treatment or get fired (referred via employer, was caught at work lol) The first place I went to claimed my treatment was "voluntary" despite being forced to go to group therapy lol. I ended up doing it anyway cuz the second place determined I needed it. I was still using and only quit entirely because I now qualified for rehab and I didn't want to go cuz then boss would know I was cheating my drug tests lol

I wonder how the workers feel knowing most ppl don't wanna be there and likely won't stay sober lol

That's a shit deal. What are you facing now?

 

[Pale_Rider]

Ah so court ordered lol. I went to an IOP. I didn't get locked up but it was either treatment or get fired (referred via employer, was caught at work lol) The first place I went to claimed my treatment was "voluntary" despite being forced to go to group therapy lol. I ended up doing it anyway cuz the second place determined I needed it. I was still using and only quit entirely because I now qualified for rehab and I didn't want to go cuz then boss would know I was cheating my drug tests lol

I wonder how the workers feel knowing most ppl don't wanna be there and likely won't stay sober lol

That's a shit deal. What are you facing now?

No it was in the county jail, and its something that the court would have recognized, but I got probation, and went to a program on the streets anyway.

At the time I wanted to be sober, but didn't realize the extent of my issues. I was in a lot of pain point blank. I can tell you nobody there could recognize it. As I said at the time I wanted to be a normal person, but was incapable due to what I was, and nobody could point me in the right direction.

 

[Cloud Busting]

No it was in the county jail, and its something that the court would have recognized, but I got probation, and went to a program on the streets anyway.

At the time I wanted to be sober, but didn't realize the extent of my issues. I was in a lot of pain point blank. I can tell you nobody there could recognize it. As I said at the time I wanted to be a normal person, but was incapable due to what I was, and nobody could point me in the right direction.

Were there any duals? They tend to be much better than most standard sud counselors in my experience. They have a broader scope of practice, so to speak. Being able to address both addiction and mental health is useful.

What was the program like? I asked my employer if I could switch to another treatment center cuz I hated the one I was in. They required me to abstain from weed despite my employer approving off-duty use (which is legal in my state.) Their tests were sent to a lab so I wasn't sure if I wanted to risk cheating them (haha idk why I ever denied having a problem.) I asked them why society is against street drugs but ok with psychiatric drugs and they went silent. I also lied on the trauma history segment because they were going to fax that info to my employer. All my employer needed to know is that I was meeting treatment requirements and sober. Fuck that. I ended up switching to a laxer harm reduction based program, which was much better.

 

[voidangel]

the idea of recovering for myself disgusts me. it feels so narcissistic. i'd want to recover for the people i care about!

 

[Cloud Busting]

the idea of recovering for myself disgusts me. it feels so narcissistic. i'd want to recover for the people i care about!

Or for the universe in a grander sense.

Honestly I kinda get what is meant by a "higher power" in the twelve steps. I don't believe in a creator God but something outside of myself that's greater than me… to reach towards something like that is humbling and healthy I think.

 

[U. A.]

It feels like such a neoliberal, capitalistic "pull yourself by your bootstraps" mentality to me

nailed it.

 

[GhostInTheMachine]

What the hell… does that even mean?

I mean I've certainly entered recovery to avoid consequences or to get people off my back, and most certainly it wasn't what I truly wanted at the time.

Even now though, as a person who genuinely wants to recover, and increase my wellbeing, this still leaves me dumbfounded. Who even am I? Do I even matter as a tiny speck in the universe? Why would I do things for me? I do things because all people are the fabric of the universe. My bothers and sisters, my family, my tribe, the earth, the cosmos… these are grander for me. I want to live for these things, not for myself. I'm nothing special. To live for myself seems… sad and shallow

Yet I hear it all the time- especially in the context of addiction- that I ought to recover for me. It feels like such a neoliberal, capitalistic "pull yourself by your bootstraps" mentality to me. I live for a grander purpose, for the collective greater good, not for myself… individualism doesn't appeal to me. Yet if I say this to normies it's as if I've grown two heads.

I don't think these are bad reasons to acquire motivation at all. I wonder what yall think, since you guys seem to dig a lil deeper than the average populace

I've been sober for half a year now and don't feel any better for it. The funniest part is when the system wants you "medicated" which basically amounts to taking government approved drugs that get thrown at people with absolutely no prior testing to make sure the person doesn't react badly to it. No thanks, I'll stick to my street drugs because I know how I react to it, I know I feel better on it, and it's a lot less likely to make me permanently debilitated.

 

[-nobodyknows-]

I tend to think similarly. I don't think I can really "live for myself" - I just don't have that sort of personality I guess. The concept just doesn't click with me at all. I don't really consider myself to be particularly important, and without any sense of purpose I have a really hard time moving forward.

So, what I'm trying to do now is hold out for as long as I can to try and find something or someone to live for. Some might say that's not really the healthiest thing, but it's the only option that is left to me.

 

[GhostInTheMachine]

I tend to think similarly. I don't think I can really "live for myself" - I just don't have that sort of personality I guess. The concept just doesn't click with me at all. I don't really consider myself to be particularly important, and without any sense of purpose I have a really hard time moving forward.

So, what I'm trying to do now is hold out for as long as I can to try and find something or someone to live for. Some might say that's not really the healthiest thing, but it's the only option that is left to me.

I'll add to this too, humans are social creatures so it makes perfect sense that a substantial portion of the species doesn't find a reason to live "for themselves". They live for their family, their friends, their tribe, etc. It's such a modern conception that people are these hyperindividual beings that can all find some reason to live for only their own sake. We live for each other, and if we have nobody then we quickly lose any reason to live at all. Those who are able to live in a vacuum are the exception, not the rule.

 

[EmptyBottle]

As a person with DID I have been through things that have irrecoverable cut me to my core. PTSD has also traumatized me further. I think I'm as recovered as I can ever be. My thought will always be dark, and far from the mainstream, Indeed frightening to the mainstream. Science itself will say there is no fixing DID, and truth be told why would I want parts of me killed off?

Glad you feel better than what u felt before, hopefully the PTSD isn't too bad.

If you wish, there may be professional assistance to redirect some thought, though it luckily won't override the personality you wish to retain. Whether it is EMDR, CBT, or even trying new things, there are non forceful options available. ^u^

I believe that personality may shift subtly over time, tho it isn't feasible to completely change true personality iirc.

 

[Cloud Busting]

I've been sober for half a year now and don't feel any better for it. The funniest part is when the system wants you "medicated" which basically amounts to taking government approved drugs that get thrown at people with absolutely no prior testing to make sure the person doesn't react badly to it. No thanks, I'll stick to my street drugs because I know how I react to it, I know I feel better on it, and it's a lot less likely to make me permanently debilitated.

Why did you get sober?

Once I was in a really strict abstinence only program. I was required to list every medication I was on and get it verified through my physician. In addition, I had to take 4 supervised UAs a week. I asked my counselor why meth or weed were so bad when my Effexor had strong withdrawals and nasty side effects. No response. I left that place after two weeks lol

Do you have any evidence that FDA drugs aren't tested? That's not what I've read or heard.

I'm critical of big pharma and the war on drugs, but at least drugs on the legal market are regulated and I know exactly what I'm getting. Street drugs are cut and laced with all kinds of shit, so unless you're testing and washing your drugs it can be a gamble. Especially with fentanyl these days.

I'll add to this too, humans are social creatures so it makes perfect sense that a substantial portion of the species doesn't find a reason to live "for themselves". They live for their family, their friends, their tribe, etc. It's such a modern conception that people are these hyperindividual beings that can all find some reason to live for only their own sake. We live for each other, and if we have nobody then we quickly lose any reason to live at all. Those who are able to live in a vacuum are the exception, not the rule.

I completely agree. Well said.

Have you read Peter Kropotin? Mutual Aid has been on my list for ages yet I can never get around to it it seems.

I tend to think similarly. I don't think I can really "live for myself" - I just don't have that sort of personality I guess. The concept just doesn't click with me at all. I don't really consider myself to be particularly important, and without any sense of purpose I have a really hard time moving forward.

So, what I'm trying to do now is hold out for as long as I can to try and find something or someone to live for. Some might say that's not really the healthiest thing, but it's the only option that is left to me.

What happens if it ends up we have no purpose… if life is inherently meaningless? Do you think people can create their own meaning despite that?

I feel you on not being particularly important. I value humility though.

What do you think would find you purpose? Whenever I search for it, it seems as if I can never find it. It makes it worse knowing everything is fleeting and whatever gives me purpose could end at any point. I suppose I find purpose in compassion. Life is suffering so I try to give back as much as I can.

Have you heard of anatta? I wonder if the concept would resonate with you.

 

[GhostInTheMachine]

Why did you get sober?

I simply lost access. The second I have a plug and money, I'm getting right back on them because fuck sobriety.

Do you have any evidence that FDA drugs aren't tested? That's not what I've read or heard.

I'm critical of big pharma and the war on drugs, but at least drugs on the legal market are regulated and I know exactly what I'm getting. Street drugs are cut and laced with all kinds of shit, so unless you're testing and washing your drugs it can be a gamble. Especially with fentanyl these days.

When I said "no prior testing" what I meant was that the current system is more than willing to put you on a drug that hasn't actually been studied for your particular use-case, or worse was paid for by the drug company to make a result up so they can prescribe it to you. Look up how SSRIs became one of the de facto drugs used for PMDD. You'll find that the only reason that started is because the companies selling these drugs weren't making enough profit off of depressed people, so they commissioned studies to be able to prescribe it to patients with PMDD. The results of those studies are contested, but the prescriptions are still legal.

Also the FDA has a pretty bad track record when it comes to our health, especially compared to places like the EU where many of the drugs and ingredients used here are outright banned. The FDA has gotten a lot correct, but for various reasons they have a ton of cracks and Americans should always be very skeptical of anything that's "FDA Approved" because that term means nothing. It's a literal marketing slogan that the FDA has no claims over, and our current laws don't really allow them to clamp down on this shady tactic. Especially now with the orange clown in office, it's best practice to research the drugs being offered to you before even considering trying them out. You might find that what the doctors want to give you is simply something they're benefiting from prescribing (this was a huge reason behind the Oxycontin epidemic).

I don't say this to fear-monger, because most drugs on the market are perfectly fine, but its the system around how we give them to people that's absolutely broken.

Have you read Peter Kropotin? Mutual Aid has been on my list for ages yet I can never get around to it it seems.

I have not, I don't read books. The majority of the stuff I read are technical papers.

 

[Satori Komeiji]

I'll add to this too, humans are social creatures so it makes perfect sense that a substantial portion of the species doesn't find a reason to live "for themselves". They live for their family, their friends, their tribe, etc. It's such a modern conception that people are these hyperindividual beings that can all find some reason to live for only their own sake. We live for each other, and if we have nobody then we quickly lose any reason to live at all. Those who are able to live in a vacuum are the exception, not the rule.

In many ways this has been a trend rising for the past decade or so, mainly online. There is so much content online now about how you need to be your own boss and how you shouldn't care what other people think and just endless content pushing an individualism mindset which I think can be traced to a growing distrust of other people due to fear mongering media.
I've never understood recovering for yourself. It just seems like something I am incapable of doing. One of the only things in this world that feel genuinely "real" to me are my relationships with other people. If I don't have those than life just transforms into a confusing mess where everything I do feels devoid of any meaning or purpose. I'm not sure what kind of mindset you have to have to recover for yourself but it sounds a bit dangerous to me personally.

 

[-nobodyknows-]

What happens if it ends up we have no purpose… if life is inherently meaningless? Do you think people can create their own meaning despite that?

I believe that life is an experience that is supposed to shape us into something else, though I have no idea what that might be. "Meaning" also does not exactly feel like the right term, in my opinion, though I can't put my finger on exactly why that is.

I do think that people need something, though. Family, a partner, friends, a job, helping others, religion… people need something, and not everyone will find that in the same thing, for whatever reason. They can likely fit together like a pie chart, but again, I think the degrees that people need vastly varies from person to person.

What do you think would find you purpose?

I think I personally would need either a partner (ideally ultimately having a family with them) or a job that was particularly involving and I felt was important.

Have you heard of anatta? I wonder if the concept would resonate with you.

This sort of thing is actually pretty much the opposite of what I believe. In my opinion, emptiness (śūnyatā) is essentially a state of ultimate despair. Cutting yourself away from everything and everyone will not bring you peace. It will destroy you.

 

[xiaoxiongmao]

Were there any duals? They tend to be much better than most standard sud counselors in my experience. They have a broader scope of practice, so to speak. Being able to address both addiction and mental health is useful.

What was the program like? I asked my employer if I could switch to another treatment center cuz I hated the one I was in. They required me to abstain from weed despite my employer approving off-duty use (which is legal in my state.) Their tests were sent to a lab so I wasn't sure if I wanted to risk cheating them (haha idk why I ever denied having a problem.) I asked them why society is against street drugs but ok with psychiatric drugs and they went silent. I also lied on the trauma history segment because they were going to fax that info to my employer. All my employer needed to know is that I was meeting treatment requirements and sober. Fuck that. I ended up switching to a laxer harm reduction based program, which was much better.

Bro they seriously sent you for weed? Do they also send for alcohol?