Discussion 'You do it to yourself, you do And that's what really hurts...'

[Forever Sleep]

Anyone else remember that song from Radiohead? To what extent do you suppose it's true? How many of our problems are self inflicted?

I tend to think the problems themselves aren't self inflicted. People can't necessarily help being bullied, abused, abandoned, exploited, having mental illness etc. But, I suppose the way we try to cope with our lives sometimes just make things worse. Unhelpful coping mechanisms etc. I also think we're good at internalizing hate unfortunately. So, we continue to torment ourselves long after the fact.

I remember that lyric striking a chord though. Because it's not just about hurting. It's that we have such a low opinion of ourselves I suppose that we allow ourselves to be so self cruel. Again, not necessarily our fault. It's hardly natural to despise ourselves. I think it more common that we are taught to.

 

[livefastdieyoung]

radiohead mentioned!!! what the hell is a happy fandom!!!

 

[Forever Sleep]

radiohead mentioned!!! what the hell is a happy fandom!!!

Happy fandom? Sorry, not sure. As in, all Radiohead fans are miserable?

 

[livefastdieyoung]

Happy fandom? Sorry, not sure. As in, all Radiohead fans are miserable?

yes, sorry it was a joke. also i do think most things are out of our control, and yes we can control our mindset and what we consume, but after a certain degree of trauma it quite literally rewires your brain. like a child that grew up knowing abuse will never think the same as a child that grew up feeling loved. maybe after years and years of therapy and other shit, but still itll never be the same.

 

[Forever Sleep]

yes, sorry it was a joke. also i do think most things are out of our control, and yes we can control our mindset and what we consume, but after a certain degree of trauma is quite literally rewires your brain. like a child that grew up knowing abuse will never think the same as a child that grew up feeling loved. maybe after years and years of therapy and other shit, but still itll never be the same.

I'm really still wrestling with this one. There are members who argue for hardcore determinism. I understand it to an extent. I think our life experiences, genes, upbringing make it more probable we will act in certain ways.

In the worst case scenarios, where we are tempted to do criminal acts and hurt others- I guess it intrigues me as to how some still resist though. Is it still the result of their biology/ ingrained morals/ natural empathy that stops them? Or, is everyone ultimately capable of stopping themselves? Are some people truly more out of control than others? Can they truly justify the things they're doing?

I believe some paedophiles like to think the child is enjoying it but, do they truly believe that? Do they truly think the child would choose that without being groomed? Do they think every child would enjoy that? How can they? It's obvious that it destroys so many of their lives.

I suppose my feeling is that it is an intricate mesh of likely behaviours and, choices in that moment. I do still believe we have a choice though. I also believe that the majority of us know when we are about to do something not so great.

If there's any hesitation there. If there's a plan to do it in secret- that shows an awareness that we're not sure it's a 'good' action to do. We're hesitating/ deliberating. In that moment- we can choose which part of ourselves to act on. Effectively- what we want more I imagine- most of the time.

In that instance, we know if we're acting on something good or not so great or, outright bad though. So- I think we deserve to be held responsible if we take the very bad route.

That's my biggest issue with determinism. That it ignores all sense of responsibility and, accountability. We need to be taught to be accountable otherwise, it will just be chaos. Not everyone will follow the rules. If it's not their 'fault' that they deliberately harm others either, I just think that's a recipe for chaos.

I used to have really big problems binging on food plus, limerence. Both of those actions gave me huge amounts of pleasure. So naturally- my brain wanted to do them all the time. I could see both were screwing up my life though. So, I made huge efforts to stop. They both felt like addictions. But, I knew that feeding them would only make them worse.

I think it's a chicken and egg scenario in a way. If I don't buy certain foods and I don't overeat on others, chances are, I'll fend off a desire to binge. If I notice I'm starting to obsess about a guy, I force myself to stop before it becomes a full on crush. Those weaknesses will always be there for me but, there are ways to manage them- via choosing which behaviours I do.

I guess the choice to follow one behaviour over another may not entirely be ours. I guess most of the time, we try to avoid pain. I know that binging and limerence is great in the moment but, painful in the long-term. That encourages me to control myself. I'd hope that if an action I wanted to do would really hurt another, that would stop me also. I just find it hard to believe that other people aren't considering these things.

It's very difficult to even know how another person thinks though. I do agree with you that trauma, especially in childhood must have a profound affect on how the brain develops. I suppose I still think exactly how we proceed with that trauma is driven by thousands of choices though. If our temptation is to then do harm ourselves- especially towards others, each one of those choices is a chance to address what we're doing. No matter how tempting it is. People do realise they're doing bad things. It's why we try to hide them.

 

[LigottiIsRight]

My problems are self-inflicted in the sense of being internal, thought patterns that I keep feeding and cause me great discomfort. But those are a product of my learning story (this is a concept from the psychological model of behaviorism), which results from the interaction with my environment, so in that sense it isn't self-inflicted (in fact, nothing is).
Although I understand this, I despise myself, and I have no intention of change that. I don't care if I'm the only possible outcome of my circumstances, I'm still useless trash (trash is trash regardless of its origin).

 

[livefastdieyoung]

I'm really still wrestling with this one. There are members who argue for hardcore determinism. I understand it to an extent. I think our life experiences, genes, upbringing make it more probable we will act in certain ways.

In the worst case scenarios, where we are tempted to do criminal acts and hurt others- I guess it intrigues me as to how some still resist though. Is it still the result of their biology/ ingrained morals/ natural empathy that stops them? Or, is everyone ultimately capable of stopping themselves? Are some people truly more out of control than others? Can they truly justify the things they're doing?

I believe some paedophiles like to think the child is enjoying it but, do they truly believe that? Do they truly think the child would choose that without being groomed? Do they think every child would enjoy that? How can they? It's obvious that it destroys so many of their lives.

I suppose my feeling is that it is an intricate mesh of likely behaviours and, choices in that moment. I do still believe we have a choice though. I also believe that the majority of us know when we are about to do something not so great.

If there's any hesitation there. If there's a plan to do it in secret- that shows an awareness that we're not sure it's a 'good' action to do. We're hesitating/ deliberating. In that moment- we can choose which part of ourselves to act on. Effectively- what we want more I imagine- most of the time.

In that instance, we know if we're acting on something good or not so great or, outright bad though. So- I think we deserve to be held responsible if we take the very bad route.

That's my biggest issue with determinism. That it ignores all sense of responsibility and, accountability. We need to be taught to be accountable otherwise, it will just be chaos. Not everyone will follow the rules. If it's not their 'fault' that they deliberately harm others either, I just think that's a recipe for chaos.

I used to have really big problems binging on food plus, limerence. Both of those actions gave me huge amounts of pleasure. So naturally- my brain wanted to do them all the time. I could see both were screwing up my life though. So, I made huge efforts to stop. They both felt like addictions. But, I knew that feeding them would only make them worse.

I think it's a chicken and egg scenario in a way. If I don't buy certain foods and I don't overeat on others, chances are, I'll fend off a desire to binge. If I notice I'm starting to obsess about a guy, I force myself to stop before it becomes a full on crush. Those weaknesses will always be there for me but, there are ways to manage them- via choosing which behaviours I do.

I guess the choice to follow one behaviour over another may not entirely be ours. I guess most of the time, we try to avoid pain. I know that binging and limerence is great in the moment but, painful in the long-term. That encourages me to control myself. I'd hope that if an action I wanted to do would really hurt another, that would stop me also. I just find it hard to believe that other people aren't considering these things.

It's very difficult to even know how another person thinks though. I do agree with you that trauma, especially in childhood must have a profound affect on how the brain develops. I suppose I still think exactly how we proceed with that trauma is driven by thousands of choices though. If our temptation is to then do harm ourselves- especially towards others, each one of those choices is a chance to address what we're doing. No matter how tempting it is. People do realise they're doing bad things. It's why we try to hide them.

This is a very well thought out response, and I agree and think all of these things constantly as well.

Sorry, but in my previous response I more so was referring to bad coping mechanisms like self harm or unhealthy attachment styles/forms of thinking about yourself and other people.

I think when it comes to pedophiles and criminals who hurt others it is a far more complex issue. Sadly, I think alot of the time the answer is most people really do lack empathy. I agree, trying to hide a bad act shows some self awareness that we know it is bad.

For example, whenever I hear about soldiers who raid villages and rape women and children, I think "How did not a single soldier think this is fucked up?" Is it because they don't see the people they hurt as human or 'equal'? Is it fear of being ganged up on? But that would mean a majority are more inclined to go through without hesitation than speak up?

Understanding human behaviour is impossible because I think some people are genuinely evil. Nature itself is not perfect either, but nature does not try to be cruel for the sake of cruelty.

I am glad I don't understand how some people think, because if I did I would be scared of myself. It sucks we share a world with so much evil, but at least I am not one of them.

Sorry, if my response was messy and not very thought out as yours, it's hard for me to gather my thoughts on the spot. But these are things I think about alot as well. There is no simple answer. The more people in a room, the harder it will be to agree on one exact thing. Animals have more structure, that's why I prefer them. Humans are like parasites, but even worse.

 

[Forever Sleep]

This is a very well thought out response, and I agree and think all of these things constantly as well.

Sorry, but in my previous response I more so was referring to bad coping mechanisms like self harm or unhealthy attachment styles/forms of thinking about yourself and other people.

I think when it comes to pedophiles and criminals who hurt others it is a far more complex issue. Sadly, I think alot of the time the answer is most people really do lack empathy. I agree, trying to hide a bad act shows some self awareness that we know it is bad.

For example, whenever I hear about soldiers who raid villages and rape women and children, I think "How did not a single soldier think this is fucked up?" Is it because they don't see the people they hurt as human or 'equal'? Is it fear of being ganged up on? But that would mean a majority are more inclined to go through without hesitation than speak up?

Understanding human behaviour is impossible because I think some people are genuinely evil. Nature itself is not perfect either, but nature does not try to be cruel for the sake of cruelty.

I am glad I don't understand how some people think, because if I did I would be scared of myself. It sucks we share a world with so much evil, but at least I am not one of them.

Sorry, if my response was messy and not very thought out as yours, it's hard for me to gather my thoughts on the spot. But these are things I think about alot as well. There is no simple answer. The more people in a room, the harder it will be to agree on one exact thing. Animals have more structure, that's why I prefer them. Humans are like parasites, but even worse.

You've no need to apologize. Your response was well articulated and thought out.

I considered writing a dissertation on 'evil' once. With reference to the soldiers you mentioned, some books covered exactly the points you mentioned. That, in order to get a soldier to kill another human being, their enemies are made to look as 'other'. Less than human and, preferably a threat. It's astounding what we'll do if we are convinced that someone is a threat.

There have also been experiments- notibly The Stanford Prison Experiment and the Milgram Experiment- where they studied people's behaviour in authoritarian roles. These people were only pretending but even then, the experiments degraded into violence and abuse of 'prisoners'.

There's this weird thing I think that happens when we feel reasured to act badly if everyone else is doing it. Also, people aren't keen to go against orders- even if they must realise those orders are heinous.

One book was titled: 'The Banality of Evil.' It was pretty scary to consider whether we are all capable of evil under certain circumstances. I think during the Nuremberg trials, emphasis was put on individuals needing to question what they were doing in future.

You would hope there would be more whistle blowers or, those who refuse to participate. There must be some. I think sometimes people who want to commit attrocities look for jobs where they might get the opportunity though.

Regarding other behaviour- self harm, even things like eating disorders, even some mental illness perhaps. Again, it's so tricky. Presumably it's something that we've become aware of. So, while we're maybe doing things unconsciously initially, it's weird to us or damaging enough for us to have noticed it's affecting our behaviour.

I suppose I would still argue though- we still make choices. We either relent and do the (probably unhealthy and unhelpful) behaviour or, we do what we can to resist it. So- there's still a choice there. The awful thing being that- if we relent, it will likely become harder and harder to resist in future. I imagine a lot of us are somewhere on the slippery slope- unfortunately.

I know myself though- I actively 'feed' some of the issues I have. I experience social anxiety but, I'm too soft on myself and 'treat' myself into not facing the things that frighten me- socialising. So, I've effectively and knowingly made myself worse. Binge eating and limerence, I've been better with though. I don't think we can help developing these sorts of things initially but, I still think we make choices on whether to let these things dominate our lives or not.

The tragic problem I guess is when we can find no reason to fight our own 'demons' or 'faults' though.

 

[livefastdieyoung]

Thank you for your response as well. If you ever do write anything on this topic, I would love to read it.

I've definitely heard of soldiers being conditioned to view the enemy as an 'evil thing' rather than people on the opposition. It's how Hitler carried out the Holocaust. It's how Trump teaches his followers that everyone else is a threat to their way of life. 'Us vs Them' Mentality. It reminds me of this episode of Black Mirror (amazing show if you haven't seen it), the episode is called 'Men Against Fire' and it focuses on this specific topic.

I've heard about those experiments as well, and find it very interesting. This is going to sound like a weird take, and I don't excuse meaningless violence, but I think violence is actually a very natural human response. We are humans after all, and nature loves violence. It is quite literally kill or be killed. It's strange because humans have the self awareness to see the morality in their actions, but we are still so primitive that violence is natural to most of us. And that confuses and scares people, because are we animals or not?

I have heard of 'The Banality of Evil' and I really want to read it now. Hopefully, one day I can. Thank you for the recommendation. Sometimes, I wonder if some people are just more animalistic than moral? Power and control is a high that no drug can recreate for sure. Violence is natural to survival. Rape and pedophilia is an evil born from self awareness and inability to resist the primitive side. Unfortunately, I think the answer is as simple as forcing animals to live in a society will never be perfect. If God exists, we truly were created to suffer and be aware of it too.

Regarding the other behaviour, I agree we do have a choice and we are aware. But, again, I think it all comes down to need for survival. People are happy to smoke for 60 years knowing they will probably get lung cancer and die, but will not walk into incoming traffic. Why? Because it was never life or death. When our nervous system does not need to immediately acknowledge a situation as life or death, we are more prone to give in to the 'happy chemicals'. There is also people with addictive personalities, or people who are still in crisis and that moment of relief or release is necessary to them. People will do anything to not go insane, and to make pain stop. Every living thing is wired that way.

I often see the people who grew up with significantly less trauma, turn down drugs and alcohol. I don't think it is just because they know it is bad for you, but rather they never had a severe lack of 'happy chemicals' to the point where the thought of feeling something good even if it might be bad, can outweigh the fact it probably is bad for you. Cognitive dissonance.

Okay, sorry for all the yap. I feel like I didn't make any sense and just rambled about 10 different things. Thank you for this thorough discussion!

 

[bleeding_heart_show]

Surely I have rambled about this before, but retreading heavily trodden ground is my favorite pastime.

When I was in middle school we were taught the concept of tabula rasa. I believe this is a poor metaphor since a slate is something that is written on using a substance softer than itself and is left with marks that can be easily removed.

Children's minds are not comparable to slates. Children's minds are comparable to cuneiform tablets; they are permanently marked by what is etched into them and they cannot be used for other purposes without difficulty after this occurs.

To put it coherently; formative experiences frame our world for the rest of our lives. The reason we repeat harmful patterns is because they are in a way inherent to us. To truly restructure one's thinking is incredibly difficult (to put it lightly) because it requires dissociating oneself from formative experiences.

That's my biggest issue with determinism. That it ignores all sense of responsibility and, accountability. We need to be taught to be accountable otherwise, it will just be chaos. Not everyone will follow the rules. If it's not their 'fault' that they deliberately harm others either, I just think that's a recipe for chaos.

This is something that needs to be said. Deterministic factors are only explanations for certain behaviours. Expression of said behaviours falls upon the individual outside of extreme circumstances.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Thank you for your response as well. If you ever do write anything on this topic, I would love to read it.

I've definitely heard of soldiers being conditioned to view the enemy as an 'evil thing' rather than people on the opposition. It's how Hitler carried out the Holocaust. It's how Trump teaches his followers that everyone else is a threat to their way of life. 'Us vs Them' Mentality. It reminds me of this episode of Black Mirror (amazing show if you haven't seen it), the episode is called 'Men Against Fire' and it focuses on this specific topic.

I've heard about those experiments as well, and find it very interesting. This is going to sound like a weird take, and I don't excuse meaningless violence, but I think violence is actually a very natural human response. We are humans after all, and nature loves violence. It is quite literally kill or be killed. It's strange because humans have the self awareness to see the morality in their actions, but we are still so primitive that violence is natural to most of us. And that confuses and scares people, because are we animals or not?

I have heard of 'The Banality of Evil' and I really want to read it now. Hopefully, one day I can. Thank you for the recommendation. Sometimes, I wonder if some people are just more animalistic than moral? Power and control is a high that no drug can recreate for sure. Violence is natural to survival. Rape and pedophilia is an evil born from self awareness and inability to resist the primitive side. Unfortunately, I think the answer is as simple as forcing animals to live in a society will never be perfect. If God exists, we truly were created to suffer and be aware of it too.

Regarding the other behaviour, I agree we do have a choice and we are aware. But, again, I think it all comes down to need for survival. People are happy to smoke for 60 years knowing they will probably get lung cancer and die, but will not walk into incoming traffic. Why? Because it was never life or death. When our nervous system does not need to immediately acknowledge a situation as life or death, we are more prone to give in to the 'happy chemicals'. There is also people with addictive personalities, or people who are still in crisis and that moment of relief or release is necessary to them. People will do anything to not go insane, and to make pain stop. Every living thing is wired that way.

I often see the people who grew up with significantly less trauma, turn down drugs and alcohol. I don't think it is just because they know it is bad for you, but rather they never had a severe lack of 'happy chemicals' to the point where the thought of feeling something good even if it might be bad, can outweigh the fact it probably is bad for you. Cognitive dissonance.

Okay, sorry for all the yap. I feel like I didn't make any sense and just rambled about 10 different things. Thank you for this thorough discussion!

Sorry, I meant to reply yesterday but got distracted. I love the series 'Black Mirror'! I haven't seen some of the newer ones though so, I'll have to look out for that one.

I've had that awful thought myself- that the desire for conflict/ violence is intrinsic to us as humans/ animals. Have you seen 'Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows'?

Bit of a spoiler here: There is an amazing dialogue between Holmes and Moriarty at the end. Where Moriarty acknowledges that Holmes has foiled his attempt to initiate a World War- so he can profit from it effectively. But, he points out how ready the countries were to fight and how it was this urge Holmes was really up against:

"You see, hidden within the unconscious, there is an insatiable desire for conflict... All I want to do is own the bullets and the bandages".

That actually terrifies and really saddens me but, I think it is there. What you asked is interesting though. Are some people more susceptible to it? The obvious thing to point out- but perhaps unreasonably sexist is the gender divide. Far more men are violent than women. Is it just because women are (usually) physically weaker? But then, we can pull gun triggers just the same! Are men maybe more encouraged to be violent? To be strong and protective, assertive and agressive? Maybe (some) women are just aggressive in insiduous ways though.

I also find it disturbing that it tends to be the more intelligent animals- as we assess them anyway that demonstrate sadistic tendencies- orcas, chimps, domestic cats will all kill for fun/ sport. Maybe it can be argued they are honing their hunting skills but, it looks like they enjoy it too. They will play with their (live) food.

Why can some people control their impulses more than others? Why do we have varying amounts? I know very passive men to be fair. More passive than me! I sometimes feel ashamed of how I feel- anger in terms of retaliation. But, I find that interesting too. It turns into reasoning. Is it so bad to retaliate? I don't think it is good to just let bullies get away with things. I think they need standing up to. That could include violence.

I also agree- for us not to take the not so great paths in life- we need good alternatives. I guess ultimately that would come from the 'happy chemicals' released from other healthier copes- as you say.

Yes- it's very interesting that we will kill ourselves slowly with our lifestyle choices. We'll even allow others to. I think that's partly a cultural phenomenon. Alcohol, cigarettes and junk food aren't banned the way SN is. It's almost seen as 'normal' to indulge in some things. I imagine it's because our governments get a lot of subsidies and taxes from those industries. Plus, they don't incapacitate us entirely. Maybe if they started killing people off in their teens, we'd think differently about it.

Freedom to choose is weird though. We will let people make some extremely bad decisions. We'll fight for that as their right but, not the ultimate and abrupt one to die. It does seem strange in a way. I think maybe they like to give us the illusion that we have total free choice by allowing some of these things.

 

[Pluto]

 

[livefastdieyoung]

Sorry, I meant to reply yesterday but got distracted. I love the series 'Black Mirror'! I haven't seen some of the newer ones though so, I'll have to look out for that one.

I've had that awful thought myself- that the desire for conflict/ violence is intrinsic to us as humans/ animals. Have you seen 'Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows'?

Bit of a spoiler here: There is an amazing dialogue between Holmes and Moriarty at the end. Where Moriarty acknowledges that Holmes has foiled his attempt to initiate a World War- so he can profit from it effectively. But, he points out how ready the countries were to fight and how it was this urge Holmes was really up against:

"You see, hidden within the unconscious, there is an insatiable desire for conflict... All I want to do is own the bullets and the bandages".

That actually terrifies and really saddens me but, I think it is there. What you asked is interesting though. Are some people more susceptible to it? The obvious thing to point out- but perhaps unreasonably sexist is the gender divide. Far more men are violent than women. Is it just because women are (usually) physically weaker? But then, we can pull gun triggers just the same! Are men maybe more encouraged to be violent? To be strong and protective, assertive and agressive? Maybe (some) women are just aggressive in insiduous ways though.

I also find it disturbing that it tends to be the more intelligent animals- as we assess them anyway that demonstrate sadistic tendencies- orcas, chimps, domestic cats will all kill for fun/ sport. Maybe it can be argued they are honing their hunting skills but, it looks like they enjoy it too. They will play with their (live) food.

Why can some people control their impulses more than others? Why do we have varying amounts? I know very passive men to be fair. More passive than me! I sometimes feel ashamed of how I feel- anger in terms of retaliation. But, I find that interesting too. It turns into reasoning. Is it so bad to retaliate? I don't think it is good to just let bullies get away with things. I think they need standing up to. That could include violence.

I also agree- for us not to take the not so great paths in life- we need good alternatives. I guess ultimately that would come from the 'happy chemicals' released from other healthier copes- as you say.

Yes- it's very interesting that we will kill ourselves slowly with our lifestyle choices. We'll even allow others to. I think that's partly a cultural phenomenon. Alcohol, cigarettes and junk food aren't banned the way SN is. It's almost seen as 'normal' to indulge in some things. I imagine it's because our governments get a lot of subsidies and taxes from those industries. Plus, they don't incapacitate us entirely. Maybe if they started killing people off in their teens, we'd think differently about it.

Freedom to choose is weird though. We will let people make some extremely bad decisions. We'll fight for that as their right but, not the ultimate and abrupt one to die. It does seem strange in a way. I think maybe they like to give us the illusion that we have total free choice by allowing some of these things.

All good! Black Mirror is definitely one of my favourite shows, although some of the newer episodes aren't that great. My favourite is 'USS Callister', what about you?

I haven't seen that Sherlock Holmes movie, but I have heard of it I think. That's a really interesting thing that Moriarty said, and it makes me really sad that he's probably right. I hate the idea of war for any reason other than self defense, because it's always the regular people and civilians facing shit for it. And it is so unnecessary. I think to some degree what he said is not true, though. I live in Australia, and we studied our history and they said that during the First World War young men were so eager to fight that they would pretend to be 18 to get drafted.

They didn't know what they were in for, and when the Second World War came nobody wanted to go. But that hype probably came more from the idea of 'glory and honour' for defending your country. Which I find very stupid. I still hate how our society glorifies war veterans as if there is anything special about it. It's funny that wanting to invade a country, kill hundreds of people, and risk getting blown up can be seen as glorious, but wanting to kill yourself is seen as weak and pathetic.

Something else I found very interesting, I forgot who exactly tweeted this but it was some right-wing MAGA follower, he said, "I would kill every ape just to save one human life". Someone replied with the funniest and actually most thought-provoking counter-argument, they said, "Would you suck every ape's dick just to save one human life?" Of course, the original tweeter ignored them. It really went to show how the original tweeter never actually cared about saving a human, but rather a chance to inflict mindless violence. They would rather hurt someone else and sacrifice them, than actually be selfless and sacrifice their own dignity to save someone. Which is far more meaningful.

Sorry, I went a bit off topic there. I definitely think there is a natural scale that people exist on, that determines how closer they are to act on morals rather than impulse (violence). I also think that scale gets thrown out of the window in a life or death situation. However, I'm not sure what determines where someone is on that scale. Yes, of course there is a gender issue and how men and women are raised differently. I do think women having a less physical advantage places a huge part. In nature, animals that are larger and stronger tend to use 'fight' instead of 'flight'. A gun completely destroys the gap between physical advantages, as it is far faster and more lethal than any punch or attempt to run away. Also, throughout history women have been more drawn to use poison to kill rather than physical weapons. Isn't it interesting how people used to get so excited for public executions? Even the French Revolution, for example. We pretend to like the idea of rehabilitation and redemption, but we are far happier seeing our enemies destroyed.

I also find it very interesting that the most intelligent creatures tend to be the most unnecessarily violent. I think it has to do with the fact that they can so easily kill their prey and enemies, they get bored. Which is really strange and scary. Because, the situation is no longer 'life or death', but rather I can kill you whenever I want. Maybe power just corrupts everything, regardless of whether it is human or not.

You're probably right about the alcohol and cigarettes being more profitable than suicide. From a business perspective, one person buys SN and dies immediately and there isn't a repeat customer base. However, one person buys a bottle every week and a pack a day, that's at least 40 years of profits before they may or may not die. An addict really is the best customer.

I think everything in life is an illusion of choice, and lately the government has been trying to remove more and more of the illusion until we are happy with the bare minimum and living as almost slaves until we die. The right to die would ruin that, because the rich and powerful know we are miserable. We are already having less children, and many have already killed themselves. Giving us an easy way out would mean that they have to actually make the world a better place, or else they risk losing control. But why would they ever try make the world a better place again, when they can enslave us and still be in control?

There is so much divide between the general population, religion, race, sex, sexuality, and anything and everything. Those pulling the strings have nothing to worry about.

 

[Forever Sleep]

All good! Black Mirror is definitely one of my favourite shows, although some of the newer episodes aren't that great. My favourite is 'USS Callister', what about you?

I haven't seen that Sherlock Holmes movie, but I have heard of it I think. That's a really interesting thing that Moriarty said, and it makes me really sad that he's probably right. I hate the idea of war for any reason other than self defense, because it's always the regular people and civilians facing shit for it. And it is so unnecessary. I think to some degree what he said is not true, though. I live in Australia, and we studied our history and they said that during the First World War young men were so eager to fight that they would pretend to be 18 to get drafted.

They didn't know what they were in for, and when the Second World War came nobody wanted to go. But that hype probably came more from the idea of 'glory and honour' for defending your country. Which I find very stupid. I still hate how our society glorifies war veterans as if there is anything special about it. It's funny that wanting to invade a country, kill hundreds of people, and risk getting blown up can be seen as glorious, but wanting to kill yourself is seen as weak and pathetic.

Something else I found very interesting, I forgot who exactly tweeted this but it was some right-wing MAGA follower, he said, "I would kill every ape just to save one human life". Someone replied with the funniest and actually most thought-provoking counter-argument, they said, "Would you suck every ape's dick just to save one human life?" Of course, the original tweeter ignored them. It really went to show how the original tweeter never actually cared about saving a human, but rather a chance to inflict mindless violence. They would rather hurt someone else and sacrifice them, than actually be selfless and sacrifice their own dignity to save someone. Which is far more meaningful.

Sorry, I went a bit off topic there. I definitely think there is a natural scale that people exist on, that determines how closer they are to act on morals rather than impulse (violence). I also think that scale gets thrown out of the window in a life or death situation. However, I'm not sure what determines where someone is on that scale. Yes, of course there is a gender issue and how men and women are raised differently. I do think women having a less physical advantage places a huge part. In nature, animals that are larger and stronger tend to use 'fight' instead of 'flight'. A gun completely destroys the gap between physical advantages, as it is far faster and more lethal than any punch or attempt to run away. Also, throughout history women have been more drawn to use poison to kill rather than physical weapons. Isn't it interesting how people used to get so excited for public executions? Even the French Revolution, for example. We pretend to like the idea of rehabilitation and redemption, but we are far happier seeing our enemies destroyed.

I also find it very interesting that the most intelligent creatures tend to be the most unnecessarily violent. I think it has to do with the fact that they can so easily kill their prey and enemies, they get bored. Which is really strange and scary. Because, the situation is no longer 'life or death', but rather I can kill you whenever I want. Maybe power just corrupts everything, regardless of whether it is human or not.

You're probably right about the alcohol and cigarettes being more profitable than suicide. From a business perspective, one person buys SN and dies immediately and there isn't a repeat customer base. However, one person buys a bottle every week and a pack a day, that's at least 40 years of profits before they may or may not die. An addict really is the best customer.

I think everything in life is an illusion of choice, and lately the government has been trying to remove more and more of the illusion until we are happy with the bare minimum and living as almost slaves until we die. The right to die would ruin that, because the rich and powerful know we are miserable. We are already having less children, and many have already killed themselves. Giving us an easy way out would mean that they have to actually make the world a better place, or else they risk losing control. But why would they ever try make the world a better place again, when they can enslave us and still be in control?

There is so much divide between the general population, religion, race, sex, sexuality, and anything and everything. Those pulling the strings have nothing to worry about.

I loved that episode too. A couple more I especially enjoyed were 'Nosedive' and 'Black Musuem'. That's a shame to hear the newer ones aren't so great. I think that often seems to happen though. It's hard I suppose to maintain all the high standards/ ingenuity. Maybe there will still be some gems here and there though to come.

It was exactly the same situation here (in the UK)- with people volunteering for the First World War but, needing to be conscripted for the second.

My neighbour is a pacifist- which I do really admire. He reckons he would be a conscientious objector in a war. But then- I asked- What to we do with someone like Hitler? Just let them invade other countries? It's all well and good while everyone behaves themselves.

I agree though. Our general lust for violence (some of us anyway- to varying levels) is disturbing. Yeah, I've always found the military kind of strange. Legalised and celebrated murderers effectively. But then, I also see the need for it because we aren't a passive species. I suppose to try to organise fighting and try to contain it with rules is supposed to ensure civilians aren't so affected. You're right though of course- ultimately, it's civilians that become soldiers to kill and die in the first place.

Another really poignant portrayal of war was from the series: 'Blackadder' where he's sweeping off toy soldiers off the map. They actually let us watch that at school!



That's hilarious about the ape's dicks! I love clever come backs.

I wonder about that really. Do we genuinely like the idea of rehabilitation and redemption or, have we just been told to? I've been really getting into that one with another member here in the context of determinism. Their argument is that we need to view behaviour, including criminal bahaviour as an unconscious result of genes, upbringing, experiences. So, we shouldn't villainize people. My counter argument is that- isn't our desire to villainize people as equally influenced by genes, upbringing, experiences? If they can't resist their natural drives, why should we? Asides from it being more constructive probably. But then- it would be more constructive for them to resist criminal inclinations too! I don't tend to agree with hardcore determinism.

Yes, I think you could be right. If animals are more efficient killers, they probably have more time on their hands plus, maybe killing is too easy. It's kind of horrific though that they'll sometimes turn to brutality for entertainment, rather than something else. I wonder what is really going on though. Elephants are hugely intelligent plus, massively powerful. But, I've heard less reports of them exhibiting sadistic behaviour. I suppose they're herbivours for one. So, maybe they have less instincts to kill in the first place.

That's so true and wise- that if we had free choice to leave, I suppose everyone wanting to be alive and keep us alive would need to make more efforts to make it a better place. That's an interesting idea as to why they'll likely never make it an easy option for the majority.

I really enjoy 'chatting' with you. Thank you.

 

[livefastdieyoung]

I loved that episode too. A couple more I especially enjoyed were 'Nosedive' and 'Black Musuem'. That's a shame to hear the newer ones aren't so great. I think that often seems to happen though. It's hard I suppose to maintain all the high standards/ ingenuity. Maybe there will still be some gems here and there though to come.

It was exactly the same situation here (in the UK)- with people volunteering for the First World War but, needing to be conscripted for the second.

My neighbour is a pacifist- which I do really admire. He reckons he would be a conscientious objector in a war. But then- I asked- What to we do with someone like Hitler? Just let them invade other countries? It's all well and good while everyone behaves themselves.

I agree though. Our general lust for violence (some of us anyway- to varying levels) is disturbing. Yeah, I've always found the military kind of strange. Legalised and celebrated murderers effectively. But then, I also see the need for it because we aren't a passive species. I suppose to try to organise fighting and try to contain it with rules is supposed to ensure civilians aren't so affected. You're right though of course- ultimately, it's civilians that become soldiers to kill and die in the first place.

Another really poignant portrayal of war was from the series: 'Blackadder' where he's sweeping off toy soldiers off the map. They actually let us watch that at school!



That's hilarious about the ape's dicks! I love clever come backs.

I wonder about that really. Do we genuinely like the idea of rehabilitation and redemption or, have we just been told to? I've been really getting into that one with another member here in the context of determinism. Their argument is that we need to view behaviour, including criminal bahaviour as an unconscious result of genes, upbringing, experiences. So, we shouldn't villainize people. My counter argument is that- isn't our desire to villainize people as equally influenced by genes, upbringing, experiences? If they can't resist their natural drives, why should we? Asides from it being more constructive probably. But then- it would be more constructive for them to resist criminal inclinations too! I don't tend to agree with hardcore determinism.

Yes, I think you could be right. If animals are more efficient killers, they probably have more time on their hands plus, maybe killing is too easy. It's kind of horrific though that they'll sometimes turn to brutality for entertainment, rather than something else. I wonder what is really going on though. Elephants are hugely intelligent plus, massively powerful. But, I've heard less reports of them exhibiting sadistic behaviour. I suppose they're herbivours for one. So, maybe they have less instincts to kill in the first place.

That's so true and wise- that if we had free choice to leave, I suppose everyone wanting to be alive and keep us alive would need to make more efforts to make it a better place. That's an interesting idea as to why they'll likely never make it an easy option for the majority.

I really enjoy 'chatting' with you. Thank you.

The newer episodes of Black Mirror aren't that bad actually, some are quite good. I guess I'm just picky, also 'White Bear' is one of my favourites because of how thought provoking it is. Although, in hindsight, it really isn't. The idea of a criminal getting punished over and over without even knowing their crimes just doesn't make sense. That just sounds like torture. 'White Christmas' is also really good.

I think regarding the Hitler thing, like I said if it is self defense I completely understand. And if the country was not strong enough to fight back, I wouldn't mind other countries doing a consensus on whether to help. But I think that should be it. And also, I wouldn't say war is the same as violence found in nature. You don't really see other animals going to 'war', more so defending their own territory or herd. And I think it's gross how profitable war has become, I saw this meme once where it basically said, "American soldiers wearing their $10,000 armour with their $10,000 guns and accessories to go blow up poor civilians with rifles in flip flops." War seems to have lost all it's respect, if there ever was any. And how Wonder Woman said, "A real general fights alongside her people." I don't see the ones making the calls risking their lives? Your video references that!

I do think with animals, they do other things for entertainment as well. Such as playing, roaming, sleeping, having sex. I feel like they only really commit the meaningless violence when the opportunity arises. For example, a tiger who is not hungry is walking or sees prey nearby. It knows it doesn't need to eat for food, but the territorial and hunter instincts probably kick in anyways. I also find it really cool that predators and prey that are raised together can grow up to be friends or not see each other as a threat. Like cats with bunnies, very cute by the way. In that sense, would it mean violence is more nurture than nature?

Ok, this is probably going to sound really bad and I hope it doesn't come off as super ignorant because I'm not white, but I also haven't researched history very deeply: Racism.

We all know the British colonised the people of colour from the countries they discovered, right? BUT, those other ethnicities also weren't always very friendly. And I am in no way calling them barbaric, but rather they saw white people the same way white people saw them. Different. Outsiders. I wonder if history had been reversed, and other countries had met the British, would they have tried to colonise them? I feel like it is both human and animal nature to react negatively to seeing something that isn't a part of 'our kind'. Not excusing racism in any way, that would be ironic for me to say. But nowadays, racism is almost completely erased. At least, the very brutal and aggressive kind. But that's because we are exposed to diverse media and surrounded by diversity. Yet you still see racism in predominantly one race countries, like Asia. Sorry, not sure where I was exactly going with this but, yeah. Maybe all creatures have a built in survival instinct to be wary of outsiders?

I wish they had the suicide pods from Futurama. I really enjoy talking to you as well!

 

[Forever Sleep]

The newer episodes of Black Mirror aren't that bad actually, some are quite good. I guess I'm just picky, also 'White Bear' is one of my favourites because of how thought provoking it is. Although, in hindsight, it really isn't. The idea of a criminal getting punished over and over without even knowing their crimes just doesn't make sense. That just sounds like torture. 'White Christmas' is also really good.

I think regarding the Hitler thing, like I said if it is self defense I completely understand. And if the country was not strong enough to fight back, I wouldn't mind other countries doing a consensus on whether to help. But I think that should be it. And also, I wouldn't say war is the same as violence found in nature. You don't really see other animals going to 'war', more so defending their own territory or herd. And I think it's gross how profitable war has become, I saw this meme once where it basically said, "American soldiers wearing their $10,000 armour with their $10,000 guns and accessories to go blow up poor civilians with rifles in flip flops." War seems to have lost all it's respect, if there ever was any. And how Wonder Woman said, "A real general fights alongside her people." I don't see the ones making the calls risking their lives? Your video references that!

I do think with animals, they do other things for entertainment as well. Such as playing, roaming, sleeping, having sex. I feel like they only really commit the meaningless violence when the opportunity arises. For example, a tiger who is not hungry is walking or sees prey nearby. It knows it doesn't need to eat for food, but the territorial and hunter instincts probably kick in anyways. I also find it really cool that predators and prey that are raised together can grow up to be friends or not see each other as a threat. Like cats with bunnies, very cute by the way. In that sense, would it mean violence is more nurture than nature?

Ok, this is probably going to sound really bad and I hope it doesn't come off as super ignorant because I'm not white, but I also haven't researched history very deeply: Racism.

We all know the British colonised the people of colour from the countries they discovered, right? BUT, those other ethnicities also weren't always very friendly. And I am in no way calling them barbaric, but rather they saw white people the same way white people saw them. Different. Outsiders. I wonder if history had been reversed, and other countries had met the British, would they have tried to colonise them? I feel like it is both human and animal nature to react negatively to seeing something that isn't a part of 'our kind'. Not excusing racism in any way, that would be ironic for me to say. But nowadays, racism is almost completely erased. At least, the very brutal and aggressive kind. But that's because we are exposed to diverse media and surrounded by diversity. Yet you still see racism in predominantly one race countries, like Asia. Sorry, not sure where I was exactly going with this but, yeah. Maybe all creatures have a built in survival instinct to be wary of outsiders?

I wish they had the suicide pods from Futurama. I really enjoy talking to you as well!

I really need to rewatch them and catch up on the new ones. They remind me a little of 'The Outer Limits'. Did you ever watch them?

I have to admit now that I'm not massively knowledgable about history, politics and the World Wars. From what my Dad's described though, Germany was in such a terrible state after being crushed after the First World War- it left a vacuum that could so easily be filled by a strong leader figure who promised to 'make it great again'. We don't learn either- after the 2003 Iraq war, a similar vacuum was left, leaving ISIS to form. It's not to justify horrific regimes but, we know by now, what kinds of conditions make it likely they will form.

That's the trouble I suppose. I suspect people who do invade other countries find some way to justify it. Some past inequality. And now, we're dealing with centuries of one country doing something awful to another. Long standing feuds and grievancies. How do you get everyone to agree to drop it and just get along? At some point or other, some arsehole is bound to break the cease fire.

True though- I tend to think money is what motivates war- just like everything else. It wouldn't surprise me if some conflicts weren't initiated simply to create the market for bullets and bandages as it were. That horrifies me because it means all involved- the soldiers, the civilians, the refugees. We're all just pawns in this game to make the rich and powerful even more rich and powerful.

I'm not sure really. Animals fight over territory and resources. Is that so different to us? They use tools. Maybe not to fight with but, I'm not sure. I don't think they'd refrain from weapons if they could build them. I'm not so convinced that nature does have this equilibrium. I have a suspicion that if it happened to be another species that had become apex over us, I have a feeling they would be just as ruthless and irresponsible. I'm such a pessimist though.

True, they're not constantly violent. And I agree, I think some of it is simply reflex action. A cat will want to chase something fast moving. Sometimes though, I sense more than that. Orcas seem one of the worst offenders. There's footage of them tail slapping seals out of the water. There's very disturbing footage of a pod following a mother humpback whale and her calf. They realise they are worrying the mother and the calf can't keep up with her pace. It eventually drops behind and they kill it. Only eating its tongue. Clearly, that wasn't hunger. There was something else going on. But definitely, they do plenty of other nicer things to pass the time.

Yeah, it's definitely bizarre when predator and prey animals become 'friends'. I don't find it so remarkable with domesticated animals or those in captivity. They are presumably well fed for one. Plus, they've learnt to be part of a 'human' society where they learn it will benefit them to do the things required of them. I think pets tend to take on quite human characteristics and neurosis unfortunately- things like separation anxiety. But, it's even happened in the wild. I think it was either a cheetah or leopard. One of the big cats that 'adopted' a baby antelope. Even protected it from other cats! Scientists thought it maybe triggered the maternal instinct but, it was odd to see. Sadly, I still think it died young because it needed its mother's milk I suppose.

The British colonists were awful. I'm so embarassed for that part of our history. They deserved to be met with resistance. I don't think we should have a right to tell another race how to behave in their own country. I'm crap at history to be honest but, I think Britain was invaded a fair bit too. But yeah, we're such an arrogant race to think we should police the world and convert it to the 'correct' religion etc. While meanwhile, stealing all its resources and enslaving it's peoples.

Do you think racism has disappeared? I think it's more an uneasy acceptance. Britain isn't exactly harmonious though and, when very heinous crimes are committed by ethnic minorities, it pokes the bear- as it were. I just think it's another virtually impossible problem to solve really. How do we make things fair, keep people safe etc? I just don't know.