Discussion 'You do it to yourself, you do And that's what really hurts...'

[Forever Sleep]

Anyone else remember that song from Radiohead? To what extent do you suppose it's true? How many of our problems are self inflicted?

I tend to think the problems themselves aren't self inflicted. People can't necessarily help being bullied, abused, abandoned, exploited, having mental illness etc. But, I suppose the way we try to cope with our lives sometimes just make things worse. Unhelpful coping mechanisms etc. I also think we're good at internalizing hate unfortunately. So, we continue to torment ourselves long after the fact.

I remember that lyric striking a chord though. Because it's not just about hurting. It's that we have such a low opinion of ourselves I suppose that we allow ourselves to be so self cruel. Again, not necessarily our fault. It's hardly natural to despise ourselves. I think it more common that we are taught to.

 

[livefastdieyoung]

radiohead mentioned!!! what the hell is a happy fandom!!!

 

[Forever Sleep]

radiohead mentioned!!! what the hell is a happy fandom!!!

Happy fandom? Sorry, not sure. As in, all Radiohead fans are miserable?

 

[livefastdieyoung]

Happy fandom? Sorry, not sure. As in, all Radiohead fans are miserable?

yes, sorry it was a joke. also i do think most things are out of our control, and yes we can control our mindset and what we consume, but after a certain degree of trauma it quite literally rewires your brain. like a child that grew up knowing abuse will never think the same as a child that grew up feeling loved. maybe after years and years of therapy and other shit, but still itll never be the same.

 

[Forever Sleep]

yes, sorry it was a joke. also i do think most things are out of our control, and yes we can control our mindset and what we consume, but after a certain degree of trauma is quite literally rewires your brain. like a child that grew up knowing abuse will never think the same as a child that grew up feeling loved. maybe after years and years of therapy and other shit, but still itll never be the same.

I'm really still wrestling with this one. There are members who argue for hardcore determinism. I understand it to an extent. I think our life experiences, genes, upbringing make it more probable we will act in certain ways.

In the worst case scenarios, where we are tempted to do criminal acts and hurt others- I guess it intrigues me as to how some still resist though. Is it still the result of their biology/ ingrained morals/ natural empathy that stops them? Or, is everyone ultimately capable of stopping themselves? Are some people truly more out of control than others? Can they truly justify the things they're doing?

I believe some paedophiles like to think the child is enjoying it but, do they truly believe that? Do they truly think the child would choose that without being groomed? Do they think every child would enjoy that? How can they? It's obvious that it destroys so many of their lives.

I suppose my feeling is that it is an intricate mesh of likely behaviours and, choices in that moment. I do still believe we have a choice though. I also believe that the majority of us know when we are about to do something not so great.

If there's any hesitation there. If there's a plan to do it in secret- that shows an awareness that we're not sure it's a 'good' action to do. We're hesitating/ deliberating. In that moment- we can choose which part of ourselves to act on. Effectively- what we want more I imagine- most of the time.

In that instance, we know if we're acting on something good or not so great or, outright bad though. So- I think we deserve to be held responsible if we take the very bad route.

That's my biggest issue with determinism. That it ignores all sense of responsibility and, accountability. We need to be taught to be accountable otherwise, it will just be chaos. Not everyone will follow the rules. If it's not their 'fault' that they deliberately harm others either, I just think that's a recipe for chaos.

I used to have really big problems binging on food plus, limerence. Both of those actions gave me huge amounts of pleasure. So naturally- my brain wanted to do them all the time. I could see both were screwing up my life though. So, I made huge efforts to stop. They both felt like addictions. But, I knew that feeding them would only make them worse.

I think it's a chicken and egg scenario in a way. If I don't buy certain foods and I don't overeat on others, chances are, I'll fend off a desire to binge. If I notice I'm starting to obsess about a guy, I force myself to stop before it becomes a full on crush. Those weaknesses will always be there for me but, there are ways to manage them- via choosing which behaviours I do.

I guess the choice to follow one behaviour over another may not entirely be ours. I guess most of the time, we try to avoid pain. I know that binging and limerence is great in the moment but, painful in the long-term. That encourages me to control myself. I'd hope that if an action I wanted to do would really hurt another, that would stop me also. I just find it hard to believe that other people aren't considering these things.

It's very difficult to even know how another person thinks though. I do agree with you that trauma, especially in childhood must have a profound affect on how the brain develops. I suppose I still think exactly how we proceed with that trauma is driven by thousands of choices though. If our temptation is to then do harm ourselves- especially towards others, each one of those choices is a chance to address what we're doing. No matter how tempting it is. People do realise they're doing bad things. It's why we try to hide them.

 

[LigottiIsRight]

My problems are self-inflicted in the sense of being internal, thought patterns that I keep feeding and cause me great discomfort. But those are a product of my learning story (this is a concept from the psychological model of behaviorism), which results from the interaction with my environment, so in that sense it isn't self-inflicted (in fact, nothing is).
Although I understand this, I despise myself, and I have no intention of change that. I don't care if I'm the only possible outcome of my circumstances, I'm still useless trash (trash is trash regardless of its origin).

 

[livefastdieyoung]

I'm really still wrestling with this one. There are members who argue for hardcore determinism. I understand it to an extent. I think our life experiences, genes, upbringing make it more probable we will act in certain ways.

In the worst case scenarios, where we are tempted to do criminal acts and hurt others- I guess it intrigues me as to how some still resist though. Is it still the result of their biology/ ingrained morals/ natural empathy that stops them? Or, is everyone ultimately capable of stopping themselves? Are some people truly more out of control than others? Can they truly justify the things they're doing?

I believe some paedophiles like to think the child is enjoying it but, do they truly believe that? Do they truly think the child would choose that without being groomed? Do they think every child would enjoy that? How can they? It's obvious that it destroys so many of their lives.

I suppose my feeling is that it is an intricate mesh of likely behaviours and, choices in that moment. I do still believe we have a choice though. I also believe that the majority of us know when we are about to do something not so great.

If there's any hesitation there. If there's a plan to do it in secret- that shows an awareness that we're not sure it's a 'good' action to do. We're hesitating/ deliberating. In that moment- we can choose which part of ourselves to act on. Effectively- what we want more I imagine- most of the time.

In that instance, we know if we're acting on something good or not so great or, outright bad though. So- I think we deserve to be held responsible if we take the very bad route.

That's my biggest issue with determinism. That it ignores all sense of responsibility and, accountability. We need to be taught to be accountable otherwise, it will just be chaos. Not everyone will follow the rules. If it's not their 'fault' that they deliberately harm others either, I just think that's a recipe for chaos.

I used to have really big problems binging on food plus, limerence. Both of those actions gave me huge amounts of pleasure. So naturally- my brain wanted to do them all the time. I could see both were screwing up my life though. So, I made huge efforts to stop. They both felt like addictions. But, I knew that feeding them would only make them worse.

I think it's a chicken and egg scenario in a way. If I don't buy certain foods and I don't overeat on others, chances are, I'll fend off a desire to binge. If I notice I'm starting to obsess about a guy, I force myself to stop before it becomes a full on crush. Those weaknesses will always be there for me but, there are ways to manage them- via choosing which behaviours I do.

I guess the choice to follow one behaviour over another may not entirely be ours. I guess most of the time, we try to avoid pain. I know that binging and limerence is great in the moment but, painful in the long-term. That encourages me to control myself. I'd hope that if an action I wanted to do would really hurt another, that would stop me also. I just find it hard to believe that other people aren't considering these things.

It's very difficult to even know how another person thinks though. I do agree with you that trauma, especially in childhood must have a profound affect on how the brain develops. I suppose I still think exactly how we proceed with that trauma is driven by thousands of choices though. If our temptation is to then do harm ourselves- especially towards others, each one of those choices is a chance to address what we're doing. No matter how tempting it is. People do realise they're doing bad things. It's why we try to hide them.

This is a very well thought out response, and I agree and think all of these things constantly as well.

Sorry, but in my previous response I more so was referring to bad coping mechanisms like self harm or unhealthy attachment styles/forms of thinking about yourself and other people.

I think when it comes to pedophiles and criminals who hurt others it is a far more complex issue. Sadly, I think alot of the time the answer is most people really do lack empathy. I agree, trying to hide a bad act shows some self awareness that we know it is bad.

For example, whenever I hear about soldiers who raid villages and rape women and children, I think "How did not a single soldier think this is fucked up?" Is it because they don't see the people they hurt as human or 'equal'? Is it fear of being ganged up on? But that would mean a majority are more inclined to go through without hesitation than speak up?

Understanding human behaviour is impossible because I think some people are genuinely evil. Nature itself is not perfect either, but nature does not try to be cruel for the sake of cruelty.

I am glad I don't understand how some people think, because if I did I would be scared of myself. It sucks we share a world with so much evil, but at least I am not one of them.

Sorry, if my response was messy and not very thought out as yours, it's hard for me to gather my thoughts on the spot. But these are things I think about alot as well. There is no simple answer. The more people in a room, the harder it will be to agree on one exact thing. Animals have more structure, that's why I prefer them. Humans are like parasites, but even worse.

 

[Forever Sleep]

This is a very well thought out response, and I agree and think all of these things constantly as well.

Sorry, but in my previous response I more so was referring to bad coping mechanisms like self harm or unhealthy attachment styles/forms of thinking about yourself and other people.

I think when it comes to pedophiles and criminals who hurt others it is a far more complex issue. Sadly, I think alot of the time the answer is most people really do lack empathy. I agree, trying to hide a bad act shows some self awareness that we know it is bad.

For example, whenever I hear about soldiers who raid villages and rape women and children, I think "How did not a single soldier think this is fucked up?" Is it because they don't see the people they hurt as human or 'equal'? Is it fear of being ganged up on? But that would mean a majority are more inclined to go through without hesitation than speak up?

Understanding human behaviour is impossible because I think some people are genuinely evil. Nature itself is not perfect either, but nature does not try to be cruel for the sake of cruelty.

I am glad I don't understand how some people think, because if I did I would be scared of myself. It sucks we share a world with so much evil, but at least I am not one of them.

Sorry, if my response was messy and not very thought out as yours, it's hard for me to gather my thoughts on the spot. But these are things I think about alot as well. There is no simple answer. The more people in a room, the harder it will be to agree on one exact thing. Animals have more structure, that's why I prefer them. Humans are like parasites, but even worse.

You've no need to apologize. Your response was well articulated and thought out.

I considered writing a dissertation on 'evil' once. With reference to the soldiers you mentioned, some books covered exactly the points you mentioned. That, in order to get a soldier to kill another human being, their enemies are made to look as 'other'. Less than human and, preferably a threat. It's astounding what we'll do if we are convinced that someone is a threat.

There have also been experiments- notibly The Stanford Prison Experiment and the Milgram Experiment- where they studied people's behaviour in authoritarian roles. These people were only pretending but even then, the experiments degraded into violence and abuse of 'prisoners'.

There's this weird thing I think that happens when we feel reasured to act badly if everyone else is doing it. Also, people aren't keen to go against orders- even if they must realise those orders are heinous.

One book was titled: 'The Banality of Evil.' It was pretty scary to consider whether we are all capable of evil under certain circumstances. I think during the Nuremberg trials, emphasis was put on individuals needing to question what they were doing in future.

You would hope there would be more whistle blowers or, those who refuse to participate. There must be some. I think sometimes people who want to commit attrocities look for jobs where they might get the opportunity though.

Regarding other behaviour- self harm, even things like eating disorders, even some mental illness perhaps. Again, it's so tricky. Presumably it's something that we've become aware of. So, while we're maybe doing things unconsciously initially, it's weird to us or damaging enough for us to have noticed it's affecting our behaviour.

I suppose I would still argue though- we still make choices. We either relent and do the (probably unhealthy and unhelpful) behaviour or, we do what we can to resist it. So- there's still a choice there. The awful thing being that- if we relent, it will likely become harder and harder to resist in future. I imagine a lot of us are somewhere on the slippery slope- unfortunately.

I know myself though- I actively 'feed' some of the issues I have. I experience social anxiety but, I'm too soft on myself and 'treat' myself into not facing the things that frighten me- socialising. So, I've effectively and knowingly made myself worse. Binge eating and limerence, I've been better with though. I don't think we can help developing these sorts of things initially but, I still think we make choices on whether to let these things dominate our lives or not.

The tragic problem I guess is when we can find no reason to fight our own 'demons' or 'faults' though.

 

[livefastdieyoung]

Thank you for your response as well. If you ever do write anything on this topic, I would love to read it.

I've definitely heard of soldiers being conditioned to view the enemy as an 'evil thing' rather than people on the opposition. It's how Hitler carried out the Holocaust. It's how Trump teaches his followers that everyone else is a threat to their way of life. 'Us vs Them' Mentality. It reminds me of this episode of Black Mirror (amazing show if you haven't seen it), the episode is called 'Men Against Fire' and it focuses on this specific topic.

I've heard about those experiments as well, and find it very interesting. This is going to sound like a weird take, and I don't excuse meaningless violence, but I think violence is actually a very natural human response. We are humans after all, and nature loves violence. It is quite literally kill or be killed. It's strange because humans have the self awareness to see the morality in their actions, but we are still so primitive that violence is natural to most of us. And that confuses and scares people, because are we animals or not?

I have heard of 'The Banality of Evil' and I really want to read it now. Hopefully, one day I can. Thank you for the recommendation. Sometimes, I wonder if some people are just more animalistic than moral? Power and control is a high that no drug can recreate for sure. Violence is natural to survival. Rape and pedophilia is an evil born from self awareness and inability to resist the primitive side. Unfortunately, I think the answer is as simple as forcing animals to live in a society will never be perfect. If God exists, we truly were created to suffer and be aware of it too.

Regarding the other behaviour, I agree we do have a choice and we are aware. But, again, I think it all comes down to need for survival. People are happy to smoke for 60 years knowing they will probably get lung cancer and die, but will not walk into incoming traffic. Why? Because it was never life or death. When our nervous system does not need to immediately acknowledge a situation as life or death, we are more prone to give in to the 'happy chemicals'. There is also people with addictive personalities, or people who are still in crisis and that moment of relief or release is necessary to them. People will do anything to not go insane, and to make pain stop. Every living thing is wired that way.

I often see the people who grew up with significantly less trauma, turn down drugs and alcohol. I don't think it is just because they know it is bad for you, but rather they never had a severe lack of 'happy chemicals' to the point where the thought of feeling something good even if it might be bad, can outweigh the fact it probably is bad for you. Cognitive dissonance.

Okay, sorry for all the yap. I feel like I didn't make any sense and just rambled about 10 different things. Thank you for this thorough discussion!

 

[bleeding_heart_show]

Surely I have rambled about this before, but retreading heavily trodden ground is my favorite pastime.

When I was in middle school we were taught the concept of tabula rasa. I believe this is a poor metaphor since a slate is something that is written on using a substance softer than itself and is left with marks that can be easily removed.

Children's minds are not comparable to slates. Children's minds are comparable to cuneiform tablets; they are permanently marked by what is etched into them and they cannot be used for other purposes without difficulty after this occurs.

To put it coherently; formative experiences frame our world for the rest of our lives. The reason we repeat harmful patterns is because they are in a way inherent to us. To truly restructure one's thinking is incredibly difficult (to put it lightly) because it requires dissociating oneself from formative experiences.

That's my biggest issue with determinism. That it ignores all sense of responsibility and, accountability. We need to be taught to be accountable otherwise, it will just be chaos. Not everyone will follow the rules. If it's not their 'fault' that they deliberately harm others either, I just think that's a recipe for chaos.

This is something that needs to be said. Deterministic factors are only explanations for certain behaviours. Expression of said behaviours falls upon the individual outside of extreme circumstances.