Would a higher nitrogen flow rate cause unconsciousness to occur faster or does that not matter?

[Butterflyfree]

The most reported failures of this method in this forum are due to SI. After unconsciousness SI is still able to act partial as if you are consciousness. In many cases people woke up, holding the bag in their hands or just ripped it off.

I am also considering an expensive Scuba set. The only concern I have is, that after unconsciousness the seal is no longer airtight due to the change of face muscles, and the demand valve must be very sensitive. The last thing one can test, the first not.

With Scuba you can lay down on the contrary to the bag, correct. This is a huge advantage, because I believe, being in a total peaceful mood with CTB is one way to reduce SI or to practise it again and again e.g. with pressured air and breath with it to make the use normal for the mind.

The hose from the mask to the tank is not that long. In the famous Scuba case his upper body was taped to the bed. His arms have been free, and if you look at the picture, he was a little bit lucky, that his right arm did not touched the hose.

I personal would not fix my arms behind my back, because my opinion on that is, it could trigger SI more. A more soft version can be to fix the hands at the belt loops at the front of the trouser.

The airtightness is my concern. It must hold for at least 10 minutes, and the demand valve must be very sensitive for shallow breating.

@FromGermany I'm not using a mask and in fact a mask isn't recommended by final exit. They have had great success with the hood. They told me they wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't successful. The people they assist are not always old and feeble. Was told they have never witnessed anyone having convulsions or trying to tear bag off.

 

[FromGermany]

"Was told they have never witnessed anyone having convulsions or trying to tear bag off."

I am sorry, but based on independent studies and also countless reports on this forum, this is the untruth.

If this would be true, industrial gas suppliers must be idiots, when they warn in their safety data sheets about inhaling N2, that after the N2 concentration reach a level of 88 %, unconsciousness, convulsions and death will occur. With higher concentration all these things will be faster.

All that scientists must also be liars who say, Nitrogen inhalation is connected with possible convulsions. Perhaps Exit is using some secret mixture of N2, that this will not happen. Convulsions will not happen all the time, but it's impossible, it will never happen.

There is no problem to be a little bit more safe and fix the upper body and the arms with some bungee cords.

After the claim of the PPeH, that the 3M Helmet and possible also the Corona Helmet will work, which is probably a propaganda scheme to fill the book with an update for the paying members, I discovered, the 3M Helmet can not work, it is not airtight and the tests are without breathing in, which debunks their claim, because you will breath through the material probably. After that I would never take any claims from any euthanasia group too serious without adding own safety to everything.

At least for me the known consequences for a failure are so bad, that I will never do anything, which is based only on trust or hearsay or is only from one source. I wish everyone in the world really all the best with the bag, and it worked hundreds of times, even with unbelievable insane sets like with an Ikea Bag or a cheap oxygen mask with plastic foil, but hypoxic brain damage should scare everyone. So many people are suffering with that from heart attacks, accidents, hanging whatsover.

With N2 it's all about the first 10 minutes.

When the brain is dead, you don't care, if your lungs and heart will work for 20 more minutes. You will also never feel anything about the convulsions. But if one has the convulsions, the body will jerk around with legs and arm, and there is the hose, which is only taped into the bag and can be in the way or one is falling out of the chair or to the side or the head and shoulders are moving so hard, when the body is not fixed, that Oxygen comes into the bag. There are so many little things.

Two or three strong bungie cords with correct length will fix most problems with convulsions, no matter if one is using a bag in an armchair or lying on the bed with an expensive Scuba full face mask set, it will always be a great help.

 

[Butterflyfree]

"Was told they have never witnessed anyone having convulsions or trying to tear bag off."

I am sorry, but based on independent studies and also countless reports on this forum, this is the untruth.

If this would be true, industrial gas suppliers must be idiots, when they warn in their safety data sheets about inhaling N2, that after the N2 concentration reach a level of 88 %, unconsciousness, convulsions and death will occur. With higher concentration all these things will be faster.

All that scientists must also be liars who say, Nitrogen inhalation is connected with possible convulsions. Perhaps Exit is using some secret mixture of N2, that this will not happen. Convulsions will not happen all the time, but it's impossible, it will never happen.

There is no problem to be a little bit more safe and fix the upper body and the arms with some bungee cords.

After the claim of the PPeH, that the 3M Helmet and possible also the Corona Helmet will work, which is probably a propaganda scheme to fill the book with an update for the paying members, I discovered, the 3M Helmet can not work, it is not airtight and the tests are without breathing in, which debunks their claim, because you will breath through the material probably. After that I would never take any claims from any euthanasia group too serious without adding own safety to everything.

At least for me the known consequences for a failure are so bad, that I will never do anything, which is based only on trust or hearsay or is only from one source. I wish everyone in the world really all the best with the bag, and it worked hundreds of times, even with unbelievable insane sets like with an Ikea Bag or a cheap oxygen mask with plastic foil, but hypoxic brain damage should scare everyone. So many people are suffering with that from heart attacks, accidents, hanging whatsover.

With N2 it's all about the first 10 minutes.

When the brain is dead, you don't care, if your lungs and heart will work for 20 more minutes. You will also never feel anything about the convulsions. But if one has the convulsions, the body will jerk around with legs and arm, and there is the hose, which is only taped into the bag and can be in the way or one is falling out of the chair or to the side or the head and shoulders are moving so hard, when the body is not fixed, that Oxygen comes into the bag. There are so many little things.

Two or three strong bungie cords with correct length will fix most problems with convulsions, no matter if one is using a bag in an armchair or lying on the bed with an expensive Scuba full face mask set, it will always be a great help.

@FromGermany the final exit guides are there in the room with the people they assist. No need to tie oneself down when you have two guides in the room with you to be sure nothing goes wrong. If risk of things going wrong were high, then they would not trust to be there.

 

[bennay]

@FromGermany the final exit guides are there in the room with the people they assist. No need to tie oneself down when you have two guides in the room with you to be sure nothing goes wrong. If risk of things going wrong were high, then they would not trust to be there.

@Butterflyfree a direct quote when looking up nitrogen asphyxiation

" Some individuals experience headache, dizziness, fatigue, nausea and euphoria, and some become unconscious without warning. Loss of consciousness may be accompanied by convulsions and is followed by cyanosis and cardiac arrest."

I don't think @FromGermany is attempting to stray you from this method or say that the set or method is not sufficient. It's to inform you of the areas in which this method could fail or go wrong based off of decades worth of medical and scientific evidence. Although final exit is a known organization and I value what they stand for, I wouldn't take their word over scientific research and evidence. Final is in the business of helping people end their lives and a certain level of "ease" goes into it to not further scare these patients that are already scared. it's worth questioning what policies they must follow and what thresholds they have, meaning, if less 5% of people experienced convulsions with this method they may not have to report or note it as concern. That does not mean it doesn't happen and it doesn't mean you shouldn't plan for it just in case. While there may have been no need for tie downs or straps because guides were present to help correct the equipment in the event of it getting dislocated during the process, that shouldn't mean if you're doing this alone, you shouldn't take the additional steps in understanding what could go wrong when it comes to the set up and how the body could react and preparing accordingly.

 

[Butterflyfree]

@Butterflyfree a direct quote when looking up nitrogen asphyxiation

" Some individuals experience headache, dizziness, fatigue, nausea and euphoria, and some become unconscious without warning. Loss of consciousness may be accompanied by convulsions and is followed by cyanosis and cardiac arrest."

I don't think @FromGermany is attempting to stray you from this method or say that the set or method is not sufficient. It's to inform you of the areas in which this method could fail or go wrong based off of decades worth of medical and scientific evidence. Although final exit is a known organization and I value what they stand for, I wouldn't take their word over scientific research and evidence. Final is in the business of helping people end their lives and a certain level of "ease" goes into it to not further scare these patients that are already scared. it's worth questioning what policies they must follow and what thresholds they have, meaning, if less 5% of people experienced convulsions with this method they may not have to report or note it as concern. That does not mean it doesn't happen and it doesn't mean you shouldn't plan for it just in case. While there may have been no need for tie downs or straps because guides were present to help correct the equipment in the event of it getting dislocated during the process, that shouldn't mean if you're doing this alone, you shouldn't take the additional steps in understanding what could go wrong when it comes to the set up and how the body could react and preparing accordingly.

Yes, I understand that. The failures have been with those doing it alone, I'm assuming? The guides that I've talked to have been witness to hundreds of exits and they have not witnessed a failure or convulsions. I personally would not attempt it alone.

 

[FromGermany]

"guides were present to help correct the equipment in the event of it getting dislocated during the process"

I don't know the legal situation in all US states or outside the US, but for every Swiss euthanasia group it is prohibited, that any guide puts a finger on the client or the equipment during the process, otherwise they will put behind bars. Everything must be done by the client.

This is the reason for the Dignitas desaster. The guides saw, what happened with the mask, but they could not touch it.

"I don't think @FromGermany is attempting to stray you from this method or say that the set or method is not sufficient. It's to inform you of the areas in which this method could fail or go wrong based off of decades worth of medical and scientific evidence."

This is correct. I will use it for myself and this is the reason, why I am investigating every possible aspect.

 

[bennay]

Yes, I understand that. The failures have been with those doing it alone, I'm assuming? The guides that I've talked to have been witness to hundreds of exits and they have not witnessed a failure or convulsions. I personally would not attempt it alone.

Again, I would just be mindful that up to a certain percentage they may not legally have to divulge certain things. It's also one of those things where an older or feeble person maybe present convulsions as twitching while a younger/healthish person would present with full body convulsions. The point is, you just don't know how your body is going to react so you should plan accordingly.
As @FromGermany stated they're prohibited from touching the equipment, and that's in most places, so it's probably best to prepare for any outcome.

 

[Butterflyfree]

"guides were present to help correct the equipment in the event of it getting dislocated during the process"

I don't know the legal situation in all US states or outside the US, but for every Swiss euthanasia group it is prohibited, that any guide puts a finger on the client or the equipment during the process, otherwise they will put behind bars. Everything must be done by the client.

This is the reason for the Dignitas desaster. The guides saw, what happened with the mask, but they could not touch it.

"I don't think @FromGermany is attempting to stray you from this method or say that the set or method is not sufficient. It's to inform you of the areas in which this method could fail or go wrong based off of decades worth of medical and scientific evidence."

This is correct. I will use it for myself and this is the reason, why I am investigating every possible aspect.

"guides were present to help correct the equipment in the event of it getting dislocated during the process"

I don't know the legal situation in all US states or outside the US, but for every Swiss euthanasia group it is prohibited, that any guide puts a finger on the client or the equipment during the process, otherwise they will put behind bars. Everything must be done by the client.

This is the reason for the Dignitas desaster. The guides saw, what happened with the mask, but they could not touch it.

"I don't think @FromGermany is attempting to stray you from this method or say that the set or method is not sufficient. It's to inform you of the areas in which this method could fail or go wrong based off of decades worth of medical and scientific evidence."

This is correct. I will use it for myself and this is the reason, why I am investigating every possible aspect.

@FromGermany can you please show me links or videos about the Dignitas disasters? If not then tell me about it in detail, because I've never heard of this. I was only aware of Dignitas using Nembutal.

 

[bennay]

I wouldn't have posted about that here, its generally Illegal for them to be touching the equipment.
Aside from that, Can you please clarify what you're trying to figure out here? Whether convulsions happen or not? Or something else?
Search: dignitas exit bags, you will find that they do use them, they video everything and send it to a prosecutor so they can be sure that there was no intervention from the guides(because it's illegal for them to touch equipment) and after viewing the videos the prosecutor makes a statement and mentions that people are shaking and twitching about(convulsions).

One of the articles below:

Dignitas attacked for new assisted-suicide method

New method for helping people kill themselves using plastic bag and gas fiercely criticised

amp.theguardian.com

 

[Butterflyfree]

I wouldn't have posted about that here, its generally Illegal for them to be touching the equipment.
Aside from that, Can you please clarify what you're trying to figure out here? Whether convulsions happen or not? Or something else?
Search: dignitas exit bags, you will find that they do use them, they video everything and send it to a prosecutor so they can be sure that there was no intervention from the guides(because it's illegal for them to touch equipment) and after viewing the videos the prosecutor makes a statement and mentions that people are shaking and twitching about(convulsions).

One of the articles below:

Dignitas attacked for new assisted-suicide method

New method for helping people kill themselves using plastic bag and gas fiercely criticised

amp.theguardian.com

@bennay this article was from 2008 and seems questionable in addition. I don't know if this information is accurate. Dignitas doesn't use a "veterinary pill" it uses Nembutal in liquid form. They don't use "guides" there are doctors there that assist. The patient has to start their own IV or drink the liquid themselves though. Pegasos uses Nembutal in an IV. If Pegasos or Dignitas did ever use Nitrogen they don't now. I have been in contact with both Dignitas and Pegasos and they use Nembutal as their method. Not going anywhere with this anymore lol just interesting conversation.

 

[bennay]

@bennay this article was from 2008 and seems questionable in addition. I don't know if this information is accurate. Dignitas doesn't use a "veterinary pill" it uses Nembutal in liquid form. They don't use "guides" there are doctors there that assist. The patient has to start their own IV or drink the liquid themselves though. Pegasos uses Nembutal in an IV. If Pegasos or Dignitas did ever use Nitrogen they don't now. I have been in contact with both Dignitas and Pegasos and they use Nembutal as their method. Not going anywhere with this anymore lol just interesting conversation.

Ah, but that's the point though isn't it? If this was an uncomplicated 100% method that required nothing other than the set up, they would all still be using it, don't you think?
Understanding what went wrong is just as important in the planning process especially for those that aren't fortunate enough to access these organizations or obtain N.

 

[Butterflyfree]

Ah, but that's the point though isn't it? If this was an uncomplicated 100% method that required nothing other than the set up, they would all still be using it, don't you think?
Understanding what went wrong is just as important in the planning process especially for those that aren't fortunate enough to access these organizations or obtain N.

@bennay I'm not convinced Dignitas or Pegasos ever used Nitrogen. Because Nembutal was always the gold standard first choice of self deliverance method. The use of Nitrogen as an exit method is relatively new. In fact Oklahoma is trying to get it approved for the death row inmate executions over lethal injection methods. No method is without it's risks or percent without failures. Unfortunately we all don't have access to better or more perfected methods so we have to just do the best we can and take our chances. Risk of failure with Nitrogen and exit hood is pretty low.

 

[FromGermany]

@FromGermany can you please show me links or videos about the Dignitas disasters? If not then tell me about it in detail, because I've never heard of this. I was only aware of Dignitas using Nembutal.

Dignitas tried it 4 times as an replacement for N. Due to for outstanding people and the prosecutor without having an idea about the method shocking video footage and the uprise in the public they did it never again after that 4 attempts.

All 4 cases have been successful, but they used an oxygen mask, which was not airtight, and because they are not allowed to put a finger on their clients, it lasted in one case so long, that even the guides were concerned, because they had only experiences with N. Everything was taped on video

Here is the exact protocol of what happened in all 4 cases, published with a study by Groningen University, University of California, San Francisco, CA and Stanford University, Stanford, CA.

So, no hearsay or guides narratives outside of Europe. Nothing but the truth.

----

This study is based on videos of 4 assisted suicides by oxygen deprivation with helium, which occurred at Dignitas in the first quarter of 2008.

Dignitas routinely provides video evidence of assisted suicides to the the Kantonspolizei Zurich (Cantonal police), and the police return the videos after their investigation. In this instance, the copies returned by the police contained a technical malfunction that interfered with the playback.

In April, 2008, Dignitas's Ludwig Minelli arranged an appointment with the police so that the principal researcher could view the videos at the police station. At that time, the police corrected the technical error and provided copies of the videos to Minelli and the researcher. Dignitas also provided a German language copy of its client information sheet, the protocol for helium, and a blank copy of the client consent.

It is important to bear in mind that the videos are used to establish that the assisted suicides are lawful. As such, the videos are Dignitas property shared for the purpose of researching the technical aspects of oxygen deprivation with helium.

RESULTS
We present 4 cases of assisted suicide using helium as an alternative to sodium pentobarbital. Specific health information was not provided, but the decedents were 1 male and 3 females (aged 61, 73, 73, and 89). Each death took place in bed with the members resting on their backs.
In each case, helium flow was initiated before the mask was put in the working position. Time is recorded with 0 seconds marking the moment when the member finished placing the mask in the working position.

Case 1 (Male) In accordance with the Dignitas protocol, the member exhaled deeply before placing the mask in the working position. Subsequent breathing appeared normal for about 35 seconds, and then the breathing rate accelerated. At this point (36 seconds), the eyelids opened, the eyeballs rolled, and the head tilted back. It is estimated that consciousness was lost approximately 36 seconds after the face mask was in place. At approximately 60 seconds, there were purposeless movements in the arms. The left arm extended upward and reached about involuntarily. The right hand was held by an attendant, for support. The attendant appeared surprised at the arm movements. Without struggle, the attendant continued to hold the member's right hand. Gross arm movements and fine tremors lasted for approximately 1 minute. Eventually, both arms relaxed and the left arm rested with the hand under the lower back. Approximately 3 minutes after the start of the procedure, breathing appeared to stop, except for 6 gasps between 3:05 and 6:30. There were two faint breaths at 7:16 and 7:55. The helium flow was shut off at 8:25. After the gas was stopped, there were 4 gurgled snorts at 8:38, 9:07, 9:17 and 10:15.

Case 2 (Female) After exhaling deeply and placing the mask in the working position, the member appeared to breathe normally for about 50 seconds, after which the breathing rate accelerated and the eyelids blinked rapidly. It is estimated that consciousness was lost approximately 47 seconds after the face mask was in place. At about 58 seconds the eyelids fixed open. At 1:05 there were tremors in the arms, arching of the back, and the head tilted back. At 1:18 the neck relaxed and 1:36 the back-arch relaxed. At 1:37 the left arm contracted at the elbow, relaxing 15 seconds later, and then contracting/relaxing 2 more times over the next 45 seconds. There were two more slight movements in the left arm at 6:33 and 6:46. 13 At 2:14 the member exhaled deeply and this was accompanied with a moaning sound that lasted for 12 seconds. From 2:45 through to 8:35 there were 21 short gasps, spaced apart by as few as 6 seconds and as long as 47 seconds. At 11:47 gas flow was stopped, more than 3 minutes after the final gasp.

Case 3 (Female) This member exhaled prior to applying the mask to her face, but she then spoke a few words, which suggests that she may have inhaled room air before the mask was in the working position. She spent 11 seconds adjusting the mask in the working position and approximately 3 seconds after releasing her hand from the mask she uttered a few indistinct words. After the mask had been in the working position for at least 26 seconds, the Dignitas attendant spoke to the member. The member nodded affirmatively, indicating that she was conscious. At 52 seconds, the member's breathing rate began to accelerate and her eyelids fluttered and blinked. Loss of consciousness is estimated to be approximately 52 seconds after the face mask was in place. At 1:06 her eyelids fixed open; her head tilted back; and her quickened breathing continued. At 1:21 the left hand clenched into a fist and at 2:33 the left arm slowly extended for 10 seconds. During this same period the member's lips vibrated with her exhaled breaths, implying relaxation of facial muscles. At 2:23 there was a contraction of the left arm; a deep exhalation at 2:30; a contraction of the left arm at 2:50; and at 3:17 there was a big snort and extension of the left arm. At 4:03 breathing paused and then at 4:17 there were 7 quick short breaths lasting to 4:33. At 4:48, 4:43, and 4:56 there were 3 final breaths.

Case 4 (Female) The member exhaled prior to placing the mask in the working position and after 30 seconds she appeared conscious. At 33 seconds she nodded "yes" to an attendant's query whether she was breathing. Immediately afterwards the member's eyelids blinked rapidly. It is estimated that consciousness was lost 55 seconds after the mask was put in place. At 1:11 her eyeballs rolled, and there were tremors in both hands. The tremors continued to 2:06 and then the body appeared relaxed. At 2:09 the breathing rate quickened for about 6 seconds. At 3:03 there was a slow extension and contraction of both arms, which then relaxed at the member's sides at 3:26. At 3:58 breathing began to accelerate, pausing occasionally, and then accelerating again. From 5:36 to 10:12 there was intermittent moaning. During this same period the eyelids were open and the eyeballs were moving, but without appearance of control. Between 10:13 to 38:16, intermittent patterns of accelerated breathing, relaxed breathing, and moaning continued. During this period a number of movements occurred: at 26:03 the head tilted back; at 30:41 the shoulders shrugged and left arm contracted; at 34:55 the left shoulder shrugged; at 37:06 both arms contracted for 10 seconds after which the member appeared quite inert. At 38:16 the camera was turned off, to replace the video tape. The time elapsed for this is not known. The duration of the second tape is 26:57. At 0:49 of part 2 the member let out a deep gasp and the head tilted back to 0:57. At 1:31 the tongue extended slightly and withdrew. This tongue movement continued at 15 – 20 second intervals until 3:45, after which no further signs of life were apparent. The camera continued to run from 3:45 to 26:57, but the member appeared dead. The recorded time from the start of the procedure to cessation of all signs of life was approximate 42 minutes. The actual time from start to finish is not known due to the change of video tape. The changes in breathing patterns, moaning, and longer dying time appeared to concern and confuse the Dignitas attendants.

 

[Butterflyfree]

Dignitas tried it 4 times as an replacement for N. Due to for outstanding people and the prosecutor without having an idea about the method shocking video footage and the uprise in the public they did it never again after that 4 attempts.

All 4 cases have been successful, but they used an oxygen mask, which was not airtight, and because they are not allowed to put a finger on their clients, it lasted in one case so long, that even the guides were concerned, because they had only experiences with N. Everything was taped on video

Here is the exact protocol of what happened in all 4 cases, published with a study by Groningen University, University of California, San Francisco, CA and Stanford University, Stanford, CA.

So, no hearsay or guides narratives outside of Europe. Nothing but the truth.

----

This study is based on videos of 4 assisted suicides by oxygen deprivation with helium, which occurred at Dignitas in the first quarter of 2008.

Dignitas routinely provides video evidence of assisted suicides to the the Kantonspolizei Zurich (Cantonal police), and the police return the videos after their investigation. In this instance, the copies returned by the police contained a technical malfunction that interfered with the playback.

In April, 2008, Dignitas's Ludwig Minelli arranged an appointment with the police so that the principal researcher could view the videos at the police station. At that time, the police corrected the technical error and provided copies of the videos to Minelli and the researcher. Dignitas also provided a German language copy of its client information sheet, the protocol for helium, and a blank copy of the client consent.

It is important to bear in mind that the videos are used to establish that the assisted suicides are lawful. As such, the videos are Dignitas property shared for the purpose of researching the technical aspects of oxygen deprivation with helium.

RESULTS
We present 4 cases of assisted suicide using helium as an alternative to sodium pentobarbital. Specific health information was not provided, but the decedents were 1 male and 3 females (aged 61, 73, 73, and 89). Each death took place in bed with the members resting on their backs.
In each case, helium flow was initiated before the mask was put in the working position. Time is recorded with 0 seconds marking the moment when the member finished placing the mask in the working position.

Case 1 (Male) In accordance with the Dignitas protocol, the member exhaled deeply before placing the mask in the working position. Subsequent breathing appeared normal for about 35 seconds, and then the breathing rate accelerated. At this point (36 seconds), the eyelids opened, the eyeballs rolled, and the head tilted back. It is estimated that consciousness was lost approximately 36 seconds after the face mask was in place. At approximately 60 seconds, there were purposeless movements in the arms. The left arm extended upward and reached about involuntarily. The right hand was held by an attendant, for support. The attendant appeared surprised at the arm movements. Without struggle, the attendant continued to hold the member's right hand. Gross arm movements and fine tremors lasted for approximately 1 minute. Eventually, both arms relaxed and the left arm rested with the hand under the lower back. Approximately 3 minutes after the start of the procedure, breathing appeared to stop, except for 6 gasps between 3:05 and 6:30. There were two faint breaths at 7:16 and 7:55. The helium flow was shut off at 8:25. After the gas was stopped, there were 4 gurgled snorts at 8:38, 9:07, 9:17 and 10:15.

Case 2 (Female) After exhaling deeply and placing the mask in the working position, the member appeared to breathe normally for about 50 seconds, after which the breathing rate accelerated and the eyelids blinked rapidly. It is estimated that consciousness was lost approximately 47 seconds after the face mask was in place. At about 58 seconds the eyelids fixed open. At 1:05 there were tremors in the arms, arching of the back, and the head tilted back. At 1:18 the neck relaxed and 1:36 the back-arch relaxed. At 1:37 the left arm contracted at the elbow, relaxing 15 seconds later, and then contracting/relaxing 2 more times over the next 45 seconds. There were two more slight movements in the left arm at 6:33 and 6:46. 13 At 2:14 the member exhaled deeply and this was accompanied with a moaning sound that lasted for 12 seconds. From 2:45 through to 8:35 there were 21 short gasps, spaced apart by as few as 6 seconds and as long as 47 seconds. At 11:47 gas flow was stopped, more than 3 minutes after the final gasp.

Case 3 (Female) This member exhaled prior to applying the mask to her face, but she then spoke a few words, which suggests that she may have inhaled room air before the mask was in the working position. She spent 11 seconds adjusting the mask in the working position and approximately 3 seconds after releasing her hand from the mask she uttered a few indistinct words. After the mask had been in the working position for at least 26 seconds, the Dignitas attendant spoke to the member. The member nodded affirmatively, indicating that she was conscious. At 52 seconds, the member's breathing rate began to accelerate and her eyelids fluttered and blinked. Loss of consciousness is estimated to be approximately 52 seconds after the face mask was in place. At 1:06 her eyelids fixed open; her head tilted back; and her quickened breathing continued. At 1:21 the left hand clenched into a fist and at 2:33 the left arm slowly extended for 10 seconds. During this same period the member's lips vibrated with her exhaled breaths, implying relaxation of facial muscles. At 2:23 there was a contraction of the left arm; a deep exhalation at 2:30; a contraction of the left arm at 2:50; and at 3:17 there was a big snort and extension of the left arm. At 4:03 breathing paused and then at 4:17 there were 7 quick short breaths lasting to 4:33. At 4:48, 4:43, and 4:56 there were 3 final breaths.

Case 4 (Female) The member exhaled prior to placing the mask in the working position and after 30 seconds she appeared conscious. At 33 seconds she nodded "yes" to an attendant's query whether she was breathing. Immediately afterwards the member's eyelids blinked rapidly. It is estimated that consciousness was lost 55 seconds after the mask was put in place. At 1:11 her eyeballs rolled, and there were tremors in both hands. The tremors continued to 2:06 and then the body appeared relaxed. At 2:09 the breathing rate quickened for about 6 seconds. At 3:03 there was a slow extension and contraction of both arms, which then relaxed at the member's sides at 3:26. At 3:58 breathing began to accelerate, pausing occasionally, and then accelerating again. From 5:36 to 10:12 there was intermittent moaning. During this same period the eyelids were open and the eyeballs were moving, but without appearance of control. Between 10:13 to 38:16, intermittent patterns of accelerated breathing, relaxed breathing, and moaning continued. During this period a number of movements occurred: at 26:03 the head tilted back; at 30:41 the shoulders shrugged and left arm contracted; at 34:55 the left shoulder shrugged; at 37:06 both arms contracted for 10 seconds after which the member appeared quite inert. At 38:16 the camera was turned off, to replace the video tape. The time elapsed for this is not known. The duration of the second tape is 26:57. At 0:49 of part 2 the member let out a deep gasp and the head tilted back to 0:57. At 1:31 the tongue extended slightly and withdrew. This tongue movement continued at 15 – 20 second intervals until 3:45, after which no further signs of life were apparent. The camera continued to run from 3:45 to 26:57, but the member appeared dead. The recorded time from the start of the procedure to cessation of all signs of life was approximate 42 minutes. The actual time from start to finish is not known due to the change of video tape. The changes in breathing patterns, moaning, and longer dying time appeared to concern and confuse the Dignitas attendants.

@FromGermany Thank you for posting this. So they decided to not continue using inert gas? These 4 cases were successful and seem pretty normal for death with inert gas from what I've been told. I'm not really seeing any problems or where anything went wrong?

 

[FromGermany]

I don't know who told you that it's normal for body movement still be active after 40 minutes with this method. This would be the opposite of all narratives these groups are spreading. Done alone, this scenario would be a high risk with a bag, if there is coming O2 from the neck for different reasons. One reason for that can be body movements. Also the risk to be found and rescued with brain damage, one does not need to study mathematics, is more likely with 40 minutes until death than 10 or 15 minutes.

More than 99 % of all CTB will not be done by book selling or fee taking euthanasia groups. This group of people, who will do it alone, must be provided with independent information and help, regardless, which method they use.

 

[Right2DiePainFree]

I don't know who told you that it's normal for body movement still be active after 40 minutes with this method. This would be the opposite of all narratives these groups are spreading. Done alone, this scenario would be a high risk with a bag, if there is coming O2 from the neck for different reasons. One reason for that can be body movements. Also the risk to be found and rescued with brain damage, one does not need to study mathematics, is more likely with 40 minutes until death than 10 or 15 minutes.

More than 99 % of all CTB will not be done by book selling or fee taking euthanasia groups. This group of people, who will do it alone, must be provided with independent information and help, regardless, which method they use.

"Was told they have never witnessed anyone having convulsions or trying to tear bag off."

I am sorry, but based on independent studies and also countless reports on this forum, this is the untruth.

If this would be true, industrial gas suppliers must be idiots, when they warn in their safety data sheets about inhaling N2, that after the N2 concentration reach a level of 88 %, unconsciousness, convulsions and death will occur. With higher concentration all these things will be faster.

All that scientists must also be liars who say, Nitrogen inhalation is connected with possible convulsions. Perhaps Exit is using some secret mixture of N2, that this will not happen. Convulsions will not happen all the time, but it's impossible, it will never happen.

There is no problem to be a little bit more safe and fix the upper body and the arms with some bungee cords.

After the claim of the PPeH, that the 3M Helmet and possible also the Corona Helmet will work, which is probably a propaganda scheme to fill the book with an update for the paying members, I discovered, the 3M Helmet can not work, it is not airtight and the tests are without breathing in, which debunks their claim, because you will breath through the material probably. After that I would never take any claims from any euthanasia group too serious without adding own safety to everything.

At least for me the known consequences for a failure are so bad, that I will never do anything, which is based only on trust or hearsay or is only from one source. I wish everyone in the world really all the best with the bag, and it worked hundreds of times, even with unbelievable insane sets like with an Ikea Bag or a cheap oxygen mask with plastic foil, but hypoxic brain damage should scare everyone. So many people are suffering with that from heart attacks, accidents, hanging whatsover.

With N2 it's all about the first 10 minutes.

When the brain is dead, you don't care, if your lungs and heart will work for 20 more minutes. You will also never feel anything about the convulsions. But if one has the convulsions, the body will jerk around with legs and arm, and there is the hose, which is only taped into the bag and can be in the way or one is falling out of the chair or to the side or the head and shoulders are moving so hard, when the body is not fixed, that Oxygen comes into the bag. There are so many little things.

Two or three strong bungie cords with correct length will fix most problems with convulsions, no matter if one is using a bag in an armchair or lying on the bed with an expensive Scuba full face mask set, it will always be a great help.

Hi

I thought I had found the perfect method, nitrogen and cheap scuba gear. But all you're saying is making me scared now that I don't still have a safe exit when needed.

I'd like to know what the solutions are then to make an exit with nitrogen as failsafe as possible. Is EEBD better than scuba gear?

Why is cheap scuba gear that bad? For a better seal one could use vaseline between the mask and the face. I find it hard ro believe that the cheap mask "seals nothing".

The regulator should be fixed to the mask by a zip tie. But in the scuba gear guide they tell to put the mask on first ensuring a good seal and then the regulator without fixing. I would rather have the regulator fixed to the mask with a zip tie and then put the mask on.

Why is having the mouthpiece still connected a bad thing?

Regarding convulsions, could u please give more details how one can strap themselves to minimize danger of convulsions but still be able to initiate the exit? Or should the strapping be completed after initiating the exit?

Maybe we should find a way to fix ourselves from the neck so the head moves as little as possible?

I just had an idea. If possible, it should be done outside in the winter and almost naked so even if there is brain damage one would soon die of hypothermia anyway.

I just can't believe dying is made SO hard by Survival Instinct and THE LAW! Which could help us but instead does everything for us to suffer as long as possible.

 

[FromGermany]

After the deepest research one can imagine, I can tell you, that the Scuba gear guide is not working that way. The Dräger EEBD Parat Guide is not working, also the German CO guide is not working. They all are not working but are very dangerous.

It can be done with Scuba, but not that way.

You will find the truth and so most answers to your questions in this post.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...esc-mode-regulators-masks.74345/#post-1400112

My dogs are waiting. Unfortunately, I have no more time. Give me an reminder, that I will answer you the rest of your questions tomorrow.

 

[Butterflyfree]

After the deepest research one can imagine, I can tell you, that the Scuba gear guide is not working that way. The Dräger EEBD Parat Guide is not working, also the German CO guide is not working. They all are not working but are very dangerous.

It can be done with Scuba, but not that way.

You will find the truth and so most answers to your questions in this post.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...esc-mode-regulators-masks.74345/#post-1400112

My dogs are waiting. Unfortunately, I have no more time. Give me an reminder, that I will answer you the rest of your questions tomorrow.

I still believe that the tried and true exit bag is the best. It's what final exit uses when they assist people. I think if masks worked better they would use them.

 

[bennay]

I still believe that the tried and true exit bag is the best. It's what final exit uses when they assist people. I think if masks worked better they would use them.

it's not about ineffective, scuba gear is expensive so trying to make sets with scuba gear would cost them more to make and then in turn would cost patients more.

Why is having the mouthpiece still connected a bad thing?

When you become unconscious, your facial muscles will relax and the mouthpiece will more than likely fall out.

After the deepest research one can imagine, I can tell you, that the Scuba gear guide is not working that way. The Dräger EEBD Parat Guide is not working, also the German CO guide is not working. They all are not working but are very dangerous.

It can be done with Scuba, but not that way.

You will find the truth and so most answers to your questions in this post.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...esc-mode-regulators-masks.74345/#post-1400112

My dogs are waiting. Unfortunately, I have no more time. Give me an reminder, that I will answer you the rest of your questions tomorrow.

From experience with adapter, mask, and flow regulator from escmode, the only thing that actually worked is the adapter. Better to use legitimate scuba gear!

 

[Butterflyfree]

it's not about ineffective, scuba gear is expensive so trying to make sets with scuba gear would cost them more to make and then in turn would cost patients more.

When you become unconscious, your facial muscles will relax and the mouthpiece will more than likely fall out.

From experience with adapter, mask, and flow regulator from [removed due to sourcing], the only thing that actually worked is the adapter. Better to use legitimate scuba gear!

Better to use a bag :)

 

[FromGermany]

For some people it's unfortunately a game here and not about the health of people.

 

[Right2DiePainFree]

it's not about ineffective, scuba gear is expensive so trying to make sets with scuba gear would cost them more to make and then in turn would cost patients more.

When you become unconscious, your facial muscles will relax and the mouthpiece will more than likely fall out.

From experience with adapter, mask, and flow regulator from [removed due to sourcing], the only thing that actually worked is the adapter. Better to use legitimate scuba gear!

What's the difference with the mouthpiece if it's under a full face mask?

After the deepest research one can imagine, I can tell you, that the Scuba gear guide is not working that way. The Dräger EEBD Parat Guide is not working, also the German CO guide is not working. They all are not working but are very dangerous.

It can be done with Scuba, but not that way.

You will find the truth and so most answers to your questions in this post.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...esc-mode-regulators-masks.74345/#post-1400112

My dogs are waiting. Unfortunately, I have no more time. Give me an reminder, that I will answer you the rest of your questions tomorrow.

Thanks for replying, giving you the reminder :) And extra questions (even more important):

But wouldn't full face Supplied Air Respirator masks work? They are meant to be used on dry land and to keep contaminants away, meaning well sealed. Using positive pressure, perfect sealing shouldn't even be a problem (same idea with the bag but wouldn't such masks be more reliable?). Like these:

Amazon product ASIN B009G5ULYK (out of stock tho) EDIT: I can see the price in preview here. So not out of stock, just not shipping to my location, changed shipping destination in Amazon and it's available.

Amazon product ASIN B08TLN2CSG

Scott Full Face-Mask Promask Combi TL - merXu - Negotiate prices! Wholesale purchases!

Scott Full Face-Mask Promask Combi TL Main material TPE - Negotiate price, shop safe and secure in the EU without language barriers!

merxu.com

Need to find a way to connect them tho. I have a 10L 200psi nitrogen tank meaning 2000L of nitrogen, I could even have it flowing at 60 LPM and still have gas for more than half an hour. Tho I haven't seen flow meters that go that high, usually they max out at some 25 or 35 LPM. Also I'm not sure where to get a suitable flow meter that connects to the regulator i have (it's a 1/4 inch connection but not flared I guess). Maybe have to use an argon meter and convert the scale but don't like such extra risks. Tho in this case I guess there is reasonable room for error in flow rate.

Would 25 LPM be enough? Do all those positive pressure supplied respirator masks also have valves that absolutely exclude the possibility of air being breathed back in, no matter the flow rate? I've seen positive air pressure flow rates seem to be quite high.

My nitrogen purity is 2.2. I've read that should be enough (above 99% purity). Tho I've also seen 2.8 should be minumum. I highly doubt this 0.06% makes a difference??

I'm not actively suicidal but I want to be READY when I need it. I'm having some symptoms and going to the doctors, nothing bad discovered yet (a lymph node fine needle biopsy came back normal) but should it ever be, I want a peaceful exit before it goes too ugly and before I lose the ability to self exit. Other options are riskier methods. Or Dignitas if my father agrees to support or if later in life I have that money and I qualify and have the 3 to 4 months it takes before anything becoming unbearable. I'm completely OK with death, I'm well aware of Near Death Experiences which give a lot of hope. But I'm not OK with inescapable suffering and not having found a reliable enough solution without risks of brain damage is giving me a lot of stress. I discovered the Night Night method, hope I could get it working, then no gas needed.

What about a combined nitrogen inhalation and then falling into a hanging noose? Would there be waking up response? Or basically oxygen starved enough by then. This might solve the convulsions problem, might it not?

 

[Greenberg]

I would suggest that you stick with one reliable method and not overcomplicate things by combining with another. You certainly do not want to be in a state of panic should something goes awry. Best, G

 

[Right2DiePainFree]

I would suggest that you stick with one reliable method and not overcomplicate things by combining with another. You certainly do not want to be in a state of panic should something goes awry. Best, G

Since any method is significantly below 100% success rate, then combining at least 2 to drastically reduce the chance of failure would seem like a good idea, wouldn't it?

 

[LADY007]

"Was told they have never witnessed anyone having convulsions or trying to tear bag off."

I am sorry, but based on independent studies and also countless reports on this forum, this is the untruth.

If this would be true, industrial gas suppliers must be idiots, when they warn in their safety data sheets about inhaling N2, that after the N2 concentration reach a level of 88 %, unconsciousness, convulsions and death will occur. With higher concentration all these things will be faster.

All that scientists must also be liars who say, Nitrogen inhalation is connected with possible convulsions. Perhaps Exit is using some secret mixture of N2, that this will not happen. Convulsions will not happen all the time, but it's impossible, it will never happen.

There is no problem to be a little bit more safe and fix the upper body and the arms with some bungee cords.

After the claim of the PPeH, that the 3M Helmet and possible also the Corona Helmet will work, which is probably a propaganda scheme to fill the book with an update for the paying members, I discovered, the 3M Helmet can not work, it is not airtight and the tests are without breathing in, which debunks their claim, because you will breath through the material probably. After that I would never take any claims from any euthanasia group too serious without adding own safety to everything.

At least for me the known consequences for a failure are so bad, that I will never do anything, which is based only on trust or hearsay or is only from one source. I wish everyone in the world really all the best with the bag, and it worked hundreds of times, even with unbelievable insane sets like with an Ikea Bag or a cheap oxygen mask with plastic foil, but hypoxic brain damage should scare everyone. So many people are suffering with that from heart attacks, accidents, hanging whatsover.

With N2 it's all about the first 10 minutes.

When the brain is dead, you don't care, if your lungs and heart will work for 20 more minutes. You will also never feel anything about the convulsions. But if one has the convulsions, the body will jerk around with legs and arm, and there is the hose, which is only taped into the bag and can be in the way or one is falling out of the chair or to the side or the head and shoulders are moving so hard, when the body is not fixed, that Oxygen comes into the bag. There are so many little things.

Two or three strong bungie cords with correct length will fix most problems with convulsions, no matter if one is using a bag in an armchair or lying on the bed with an expensive Scuba full face mask set, it will always be a great help.

I agree.. bungee cords on the forearms up near the elbows.. I will use that.

 

[Greenberg]

I am unsure how you came to the conclusion that "any method is significantly below 100% success rate." The top 3 methods -- N, SN, Exit Bag -- will guarantee one's passing when executed correctly. Combining 2 methods together causes unnecessary distractions. Different methods are independent and require different setups.

 

[Right2DiePainFree]

I am unsure how you came to the conclusion that "any method is significantly below 100% success rate." The top 3 methods -- N, SN, Exit Bag -- will guarantee one's passing when executed correctly. Combining 2 methods together causes unnecessary distractions. Different methods are independent and require different setups.

For now N is out of question, too expensive and don't want legal trouble. However I am unsure how you came to the conclusion that N, SN and Exit Bag "guarantee one's passing"? There are SO many things that can go wrong. That's what this forum is full of. Puking the SN out. Exit Bag becoming loose or hose connection breaking from convulsions when severe hypoxia kicks in. Or Survival Instinct makes you tear the bag off the head. I liked the Exit Bag method. Until I discovered the uncertanties and failures. And the risk of brain damage! Then I discovered the scuba gear method alternative, thought I'd found the perfect solution. Until I discovered that the demand valve might not work with shallow breathing and and that the masks might not seal perfectly, especially above water and especially affordable ones.

I'd honestly try SN as the first thing because it's the least likely to leave permanent damage. But I'm not sure how to get the antiemetic. Found a few sites who sell without prescription but they might be scams. I don't wanna risk it without the antiemetic.

 

[Butterflyfree]

For now N is out of question, too expensive and don't want legal trouble. However I am unsure how you came to the conclusion that N, SN and Exit Bag "guarantee one's passing"? There are SO many things that can go wrong. That's what this forum is full of. Puking the SN out. Exit Bag becoming loose or hose connection breaking from convulsions when severe hypoxia kicks in. Or Survival Instinct makes you tear the bag off the head. I liked the Exit Bag method. Until I discovered the uncertanties and failures. And the risk of brain damage! Then I discovered the scuba gear method alternative, thought I'd found the perfect solution. Until I discovered that the demand valve might not work with shallow breathing and and that the masks might not seal perfectly, especially above water and especially affordable ones.

I'd honestly try SN as the first thing because it's the least likely to leave permanent damage. But I'm not sure how to get the antiemetic. Found a few sites who sell without prescription but they might be scams. I don't wanna risk it without the antiemetic.

He said "when executed correctly"

 

[Right2DiePainFree]

He said "when executed correctly"

But how can one guarantee correct execution? There seem to be variables beyond one's control. So "when executed correctly" is too much of a lottery.

 

[Butterflyfree]

But how can one guarantee correct execution? There seem to be variables beyond one's control. So "when executed correctly" is too much of a lottery.

If, you are that afraid then maybe you shouldn't even try.