Would a higher nitrogen flow rate cause unconsciousness to occur faster or does that not matter?

[luten]

only mask? with tube for gas inlet, and the 1-way valves for the emission of gas from the mask?

Apologies for my delayed reply. As you point out correctly, only a non-rebreather mask with two one way valves. I did not want to use a bag too, as it was only for testing.

 

[Greenberg]

well done a third test, 25 LPM, via non-rebreather mask. Same result, dizziness no unconsciousness after 1.5 minutes. I was only able to hold the mask with my hand, as if I use the head bands it might no longer be just a test....

You may be over-pressurizing the mask with a higher flow rate. The increased pressure will create leaks around the edge of your mask. As long as you have a secure seal, during inspiration and expiration, unconsciousness will ensue.

 

[luten]

You may be over-pressurizing the mask with a higher flow rate. The increased pressure will create leaks around the edge of your mask. As long as you have a secure seal, during inspiration and expiration, unconsciousness will ensue.

i thought that i might have put too much pressure on the mask with my hand, as I did not use the headbands. The UN Number is 1066. I felt that the effect came quicker when breathing through mouth, problem is , naturally I don't breathe through my nose.

 

[Greenberg]

No worries, you have the right gas. UN1066 is for nitrogen. May I suggest that you exhale first prior to putting on the mask? The effect should be noticeably quicker.

 

[luten]

No worries, you have the right gas. UN1066 is for nitrogen. May I suggest that you exhale first prior to putting on the mask? The effect should be noticeably quicker.

Maybe I will give it one more try tomorrow.

Maybe I will give it one more try tomorrow.

pity that i dont have an oximeter, would've been useful.

 

[Greenberg]

Maybe I will give it one more try tomorrow.

pity that i dont have an oximeter, would've been useful.

There is no need to invest in an oximeter. If you start feeling dizzy, it is working. Breathe calmly as if you are resting on a sofa.

Notwithstanding what some others say, do not go crazy with the flow rates. 15lpm will do the trick. People have perish with less.

 

[luten]

There is no need to invest in an oximeter. If you start feeling dizzy, it is working. Breathe calmly as if you are resting on a sofa.

Notwithstanding what some others say, do not go crazy with the flow rates. 15lpm will do the trick. People have perish with less.

thank you, will try (test) again tomorrow morning.

 

[Greenberg]

You are most welcome! Best, G

 

[My_name_is_Luka]

You may be over-pressurizing the mask with a higher flow rate. The increased pressure will create leaks around the edge of your mask. As long as you have a secure seal, during inspiration and expiration, unconsciousness will ensue.

I think that as well. face masks are not meant to create a perfect seal around the face.
The gas has to escape from somewhere, either the seals or the valves; if it goes through the seals, it might let some oxygen in

 

[Greenberg]

That is why it makes no sense to increase the flow rate beyond 15lpm. The gas will be wasted in the atmosphere.

Coming from a person from the health science field, there are physiological considerations to take into account with very high flow rates. They are the drying out of the mucous membranes and significant temperature change within your respiratory system. Neither one of which are comfortable nor safe to the body.

Firstly, see how your mask trial goes and if does not work, then consider other alternatives.

Best, G

 

[Butterflyfree]

Thank you, do we agree on 15 L/PM for mask , and 20 l/pm for exit bag? Must bag be terminated with tape, tightly

That is why it makes no sense to increase the flow rate beyond 15lpm. The gas will be wasted in the atmosphere.

Coming from a person from the health science field, there are physiological considerations to take into account with very high flow rates. They are the drying out of the mucous membranes and significant temperature change within your respiratory system. Neither one of which are comfortable nor safe to the body.

Firstly, see how your mask trial goes and if does not work, then consider other alternatives.

Best, G

@Greenberg I have asthma, will the gas cause me to cough and have trouble breathing it into my lungs properly? I don't want to start coughing and my lungs seize up.

 

[Greenberg]

@Greenberg I have asthma, will the gas cause me to cough and have trouble breathing it into my lungs properly? I don't want to start coughing and my lungs seize up.

You should be fine @Butterflyfree as long as you keep the flow rate at a reasonable level, i.e., near 15lpm for nitrogen. My guess is that a higher flow rate would irritate your lungs.

Under no circumstance should anyone employ a flow rate at a 60lpm flow rate for an EEBD as suggested by another member. Such an extreme flow rate would blow out the user's lungs at worst or badly irritate the respiratory system at best (i.e., dry out mucous membranes and dramatic temperature changes). As an analogy, think of ice-cold wind blowing into your eyes.

 

[luten]

Tried again now, 15 LPM , Non-rebreather mask, for 1,5 minutes. Exhaled before first breathe in mask. Nothing again happened. Maybe this has something to to do with my lung function, thought my oxygen saturation is usually around 98% when in hospital...

 

[FromGermany]

When you will continue to make so much tests within a short period of time over so many seconds, you can also have some kind of brain damage after some dozen of tests and latest then you will believe everything, which some crazy people are telling you as an advice.

And with this 15 Liter hoax your set will never work.

Some people obviously don't want to accept, that any mask with the exception of a high premium Scuba can not and will not work, only by accident.

There was a guy, who even used only an Ikea bag and was more successful.

 

[Greenberg]

Listen, there must be air leaking into your mask. Have you tried it with a bag? There is the remote possibility there is air in your cylinder. Sometimes gas suppliers are too lazy to purge the cylinder prior to refilling.

 

[luten]

Listen, there must be air leaking into your mask. Have you tried it with a bag? There is the remote possibility there is air in your cylinder. Sometimes gas suppliers are too lazy to purge the cylinder prior to refilling.

Thank you for your input.

The gas supplier doesn't refill their own tanks, it is refilled by an international gas company, they have a good reputation, that is all I know. It still could be true that there is air in the tank. Which implies that I will have to get another tank, and then could potentially end-up with the same problem if the tank was not the problem. The intent was to test it first, by holding the mask, if I became unconscious during the test, then the mask would've fallen off, which wont be the case with a bag.

My energy levels are depleted, and so is my will to deal with this. Not sure if I have it in me to return it, and go through this exercise again.

 

[YuckyDucky]

Exhaled air does not only contain CO2 but also contains 14 % O2. This also applies to this method. A flow lower than 20 Liter / Minute will slower the removal also of the O2 of the exhaled air.

I've seen you repeat this in a few threads, but its simply not true in the context of an eb. Your body cannot produce O2. Your lungs simply aren't capable of absorbing all the O2 from the air you breath in. The 14% is what your lungs fail to absorb, and the 14% number assumes you are inhaling "normal" 21% O2 air. Once you start breathing from an isolated environment with much lower O2, there will no longer be any leftover O2 to exhale. Your first breath or two may have some residual O2 that was still left in your lungs, but it would quickly drop to essentially 0.

 

[FromGermany]

@YuckyDucky
You are right. The scientists, who proved that be wrong, must be idiots. There are absolutely no O2 reserves in the body and absolutely also no O2 in exhaled air. Perhaps here in my room there is also no O2. I don't know, why they have not discovered that after so many centuries of research.

Luten with his tests, which did not go well, exhaled still enough O2. He can be very lucky, that his set was not so good, that he worked at the brink of 6 % O2 in the mask, because this is the criitcal point between unconscious and the risk of brain damage. A 0 % O2 environment is almost impossible. So the margin between 1 % and 6 % is very small for a set without risks and this is, what it is all about here for me. To prevent people from getting brain damage, because on the contrary to others I do care about people here, who will try this method.

@luten
You must be really careful. There was a guy, who attempted with helium again and again and it failed always, but after a dozen attempts or so he admitted, some functions of coordinations did not work as good as before as a result of too much testing within a short period of time. You are really testing too much. If you do not became unconscious within 60 seconds, you should stop it.

 

[Ta555]

@YuckyDucky
You are right. The scientists, who proved that be wrong, must be idiots. There are absolutely no O2 reserves in the body and absolutely also no O2 in exhaled air. Perhaps here in my room there is also no O2. I don't know, why they have not discovered that after so many centuries of research.

Luten with his tests, which did not go well, exhaled still enough O2. He can be very lucky, that his set was not so good, that he worked at the brink of 6 % O2 in the mask, because this is the criitcal point between unconscious and the risk of brain damage. A 0 % O2 environment is almost impossible. So the margin between 1 % and 6 % is very small for a set without risks and this is, what it is all about here for me. To prevent people from getting brain damage, because on the contrary to others I do care about people here, who will try this method.

@luten
You must be really careful. There was a guy, who attempted with helium again and again and it failed always, but after a dozen attempts or so he admitted, some functions of coordinations did not work as good as before as a result of too much testing within a short period of time. You are really testing too much. If you do not became unconscious within 60 seconds, you should stop it.

What @YuckyDucky says though makes sense...it you're not breathing in oxygen you can't be breathing it out after the first couple of breaths. I also understand what you're saying about the reserves but I really don't think there's that much oxygen reserve. You said scientists have proved that there's a big oxygen reserve? Can I please see the source.

 

[Greenberg]

I've seen you repeat this in a few threads, but its simply not true in the context of an eb. Your body cannot produce O2. Your lungs simply aren't capable of absorbing all the O2 from the air you breath in. The 14% is what your lungs fail to absorb, and the 14% number assumes you are inhaling "normal" 21% O2 air. Once you start breathing from an isolated environment with much lower O2, there will no longer be any leftover O2 to exhale. Your first breath or two may have some residual O2 that was still left in your lungs, but it would quickly drop to essentially 0.

You are absolutely correct! Perhaps, you may even share my view that this German dude is not only a sarcastic fearmonger. His view of reality is all self-righteous! ...I mean a few breaths of nitrogen will result in brain damage...give me a break...what is he smoking...

 

[Butterflyfree]

You are absolutely correct! Perhaps, you may even share my view that this German dude is not only a sarcastic fearmonger. His view of reality is all self-righteous! ...I mean a few breaths of nitrogen will result in brain damage...give me a break...what is he smoking...

FEN guides are required to take a few breaths of the nitrogen as part of their training so they know what it's like. Nothing happens after one or even two breaths. I'm sure people who have tested it on themselves know this too.

 

[FromGermany]

"FEN guides are required to take a few breaths of the nitrogen as part of their training so they know what it's like."

"required"

Thank you for sharing this. Oh my Goodness, they are as lunatic as all the others. Instead of suggesting a risk-free tank of pressured air, which "smells" the same as Nitrogen, they put their own guides into danger.

There is absolutely no difference between breathing air and Nitrogen for the senses, only with the difference, that uninformed guides will damage their brains when they do too much "training" which is "required" to be an euthanasis guide.

This is really insane.

If Dignitas would have done that, the leading person would be behind bars.

Every week one more thread or story become public here, pro-lifers can say, look, what these crazy CTB people are all about.

Streisand Effect.

 

[Greenberg]

FEN guides are required to take a few breaths of the nitrogen as part of their training so they know what it's like. Nothing happens after one or even two breaths. I'm sure people who have tested it on themselves know this too.

The air around us is made up of 80% nitrogen. If it was harmful, we would be brain dead by now.

 

[YuckyDucky]

@YuckyDucky
You are right. The scientists, who proved that be wrong, must be idiots. There are absolutely no O2 reserves in the body and absolutely also no O2 in exhaled air. Perhaps here in my room there is also no O2. I don't know, why they have not discovered that after so many centuries of research.

Luten with his tests, which did not go well, exhaled still enough O2. He can be very lucky, that his set was not so good, that he worked at the brink of 6 % O2 in the mask, because this is the criitcal point between unconscious and the risk of brain damage. A 0 % O2 environment is almost impossible. So the margin between 1 % and 6 % is very small for a set without risks and this is, what it is all about here for me. To prevent people from getting brain damage, because on the contrary to others I do care about people here, who will try this method.

@luten
You must be really careful. There was a guy, who attempted with helium again and again and it failed always, but after a dozen attempts or so he admitted, some functions of coordinations did not work as good as before as a result of too much testing within a short period of time. You are really testing too much. If you do not became unconscious within 60 seconds, you should stop it.

Yes, there may be some residual O2 for a couple of breaths, but it will quickly drop to essentially 0. No, the body does not keep O2 reserves to save it for later. That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read. I don't know where the hell you're doing the "research" that you're constantly bragging about or who these "scientists" are but you might be right about one thing. Maybe you should check the O2 level in your room, it might be a little low.

 

[Greenberg]

Yes, there may be some residual O2 for a couple of breaths, but it will quickly drop to essentially 0. No, the body does not keep O2 reserves to save it for later. That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read. I don't know where the hell you're doing the "research" that you're constantly bragging about or who these "scientists" are but you might be right about one thing. Maybe you should check the O2 level in your room, it might be a little low.

In absolute agreement with you! Frankly, we have a crank with second-hand knowledge from unknown "scientific" sources without knowledge of the most basic human physiology. Sorry, not be taken seriously!

 

[MelodyCymbal]

@Right2DiePainFree, @Ta555

"More of an exception than a rule."

What, if you or me are the exception? No one knows, but the intelligent people consider, they could be the exception by adding steps to avoid that by all available means.

"Partial being almost impossible? Where does that info come from? For Robin Williams and many others I heard it wasn't. Night Night a myth? Does the megathread also confirm it's a myth? As far as I read I saw someone was probably successful."

Partial method only works, if there is absolutely no SI anymore as this is the case with some prisoners and was the case with wonderful actor Robin W., who was found with a belt tied around his neck, wedged between the closet door and door frame, in a seated position, slightly suspended off the ground, like he was sitting in a chair. He suffered not only under Parkinson's disease but also under Lewy-Body dementia, so he was so afraid about the end of the life with this diseases, that there was no SI anymore, nothing, and the only reason, why it worked.

"Can I do Exit Bag outside without a chair? Maybe sitting on the ground and strapping myself onto a tree? Cover the tree trunk with something to make sure it or branches or anything won't break the bag."

The bark of the tree will destroy the bag. One must tape first some thin pillows around the tree at the region, where the head is. You can sit in a car in the backseat and fix your upperbody with the belt and the arms and hands with elastic loops or bungee cords. Never use handcuffs, because this will even stronger the SI.

"Some instruction recommended to zip tie the hose into the bag in addition to just taping it and cover the holes with tape. Then again, why are any holes a bad thing if there is positive pressure in the bag and it's supposed to leak at the bottom anyway?"

There is a flow. If there are any holes aside of the opening at the bottom, it can happen, that the flow will also flow some O2 into the bag at holes. There is good tape to fix the hose into the bag. But you have to test it if the hose will hold for at least 15 minutes with that combination of the bag and hose and tape material. There have been cases, people have been found dead, but the hose has flopped out of the bag at some time and was lying on the floor, probably after 10 minutes, because otherwise they would be still alive, of course with a brain damage.

"According to this person nothing works."

That's the untruth. The truth is, since weeks I am telling the people, that an expensive premium Scuba Mask set will work and that I do everything to make it work for some nice people on the forum and for me and that an exit bag as an unwanted alternative would work, if some dozens of small things will be considered. But the priority will be on the mask set. It's more expensive than N, but it has the maximum security.

What do you think of the EM SCBA Self Contained Breathing Apparatus) kit? Also, EM's EEBD kit? Feel free to PM me. Also, I'm interested in what dozens of small things that can be done to improve the classic Exit Bag. Vielen dank!

So if I may ask, which mask is it, the expensive premium scuba mask? And how much does it cost? What is the information that it's the only mask that works based on?

Still how can you be so sure a full face respirator mask with positive pressure won't work? I get it now that with a demand valve leakage might be a huge problem (altho 1 or more have CTB with the cheap scuba gear, not aware of anybody failing). But with positive pressure theoretically the seal doesn't even have to be perfect.

Like an SCBA (self contained breathing apparatus)?

 

[outrider567]

What do you think of the EM SCBA Self Contained Breathing Apparatus) kit? Also, EM's EEBD kit? Feel free to PM me. Also, I'm interested in what dozens of small things that can be done to improve the classic Exit Bag. Vielen dank!

Like an SCBA (self contained breathing apparatus)?

MelodyCymbal, FromGermany poster has been banned from the forum due to spreading false information, do not read any of his posts--Greenberg and Gas Monkey are the real knowledgeable experts here

 

[MelodyCymbal]

There is no need to invest in an oximeter. If you start feeling dizzy, it is working. Breathe calmly as if you are resting on a sofa.

Notwithstanding what some others say, do not go crazy with the flow rates. 15lpm will do the trick. People have perish with less.

In the current PPeH, they recommend a flow rate of 25 lpm if using a hood such as the 3M Versaflo. There's an accompanying video demonstration with oxygen readings. Would this 25 lpm rate apply to an EEBD hood as well?

Everyone, who still claims, that 15 Liter/Minute is enough, is giving dangerous adivce. Even a scientific study has proven, that this is not enough. People, who give such advices, give you with that the risk of the brain damage. In the meantime I am still investigating their motives why such people give this false advice, because the 15 Liter is proven based on a hoax by Nitschke, so that he could sell and promote his Oxygen equipment, which has been camouflaged as Nitrogen.

What do you think the flow rate should be and why?

 

[MelodyCymbal]

When you will continue to make so much tests within a short period of time over so many seconds, you can also have some kind of brain damage after some dozen of tests and latest then you will believe everything, which some crazy people are telling you as an advice.

And with this 15 Liter hoax your set will never work.

Some people obviously don't want to accept, that any mask with the exception of a high premium Scuba can not and will not work, only by accident.

There was a guy, who even used only an Ikea bag and was more successful.

What about SCBA? Especially since it's made for use on land & not underwater?

When you will continue to make so much tests within a short period of time over so many seconds, you can also have some kind of brain damage after some dozen of tests and latest then you will believe everything, which some crazy people are telling you as an advice.

And with this 15 Liter hoax your set will never work.

Some people obviously don't want to accept, that any mask with the exception of a high premium Scuba can not and will not work, only by accident.

There was a guy, who even used only an Ikea bag and was more successful.

What is the 15 lpm hoax? What do you think flow should be set at depending on the apparatus?