Discussion Why most suicides are men

[jengablocks]

i think with the gun vs more non-lethal methods u can consider that (in the u.s. at least) more men, especially white men, own guns in the first place

otherwise it doesn't seem super productive to create a contrast with women for these problems. toxic masculinity is in practice just misogyny--things like being emotionally vulnerable or asking for help are traditionally feminine, thus bad. the grass isn't greener, it's just different, and u should try to direct your hatred at the system and those that maintain it instead of people that are suffering just like you

 

[jengablocks]

It's literally just some woman acting like a badass dude

this is criticized a lot in feminist circles, but you're right about some of this stuff, a lot of media tries to make women "strong" by giving them traditionally masculine traits, and it's exacerbated when placed in the context of capitalism. it doesn't help anyone, it's just propaganda.

i will offer the perspective that the gender roles of men being providers and women as caretakers isn't "natural," the division of labor between the sexes in hunter-gatherer societies was just that--a division of labor. the "gathering" also included hunting smaller animals, and it made up the majority of the daily nutrition for the population. "hunting" was fairly literal, it was chasing down much larger animals, sometimes over multiple days, to supplement any nutrition we'd miss from being limited to the "gathered" food.

there's evidence that neanderthals, who lived at the same time as modern homo sapiens, didn't even have quite as strong a division of labor. skeletons we've recovered of both their men and women have equal levels of extreme physical trauma, supposedly from hunting. they were essentially on the same branch of evolution as us, living into almost as far as half the current lifetime of modern humans on earth, so it's definitely not a universal truth of nature.

 

[jengablocks]

shows men and women being different.

of course, there are differences and that's what i mean to convey, im just offering that those differences aren't quite so rigid as the provider versus caretaker rhetoric would imply

 

[dragonofenvy]

Guess when women were more happy? It was when they didn't work and raised children. The entire meme of equality is capitalism. Women literally bought into being the best version of themselves was just a "toxic man." Look at any modern video game with a female protagonist. It's literally just some woman acting like a badass dude. These people are absolutely insane and hate men. The natural order is men doing masculine things and women raising kids. It's not a bug. It's a feature. That's how the world works long before humans even existed. Capitalism wants women to believe they are just men.

This is partially true. I do not fully endorse traditionalist values especially due to how much society has changed. I also don't think that going back to that culture is the solution nor pragmatic. I will say though that a lot of people who use the toxic masculine buzzword don't have an understanding of how men operate. Just like how the people who go into the forum posts of women who vent about how life is as a woman don't understand them. Any time anyone vents about being male or female here the threads end up locked. I was guilty of being retarded on some of those posts in the past and regret them.

I don't think everyone here who uses the term hates men. I think they have a huge misunderstanding of men, or don't think very hard about their issues and are confident in saying what they've heard in our culture. What they also don't realize is that we've heard that stuff before, and there's a reason why it's rejected. Because it's not the correct answer, and is putting 100% of the blame on the person. It isn't 100%. Maybe it's 70/30, or 50/50, or 20/80 who knows.

I don't think advocating for a return to gender roles is the right solution. Do you know what else was different in the 1950s? There was no internet. People were more connected to each other. I was refuting the take that toxic masculinity is the sole reason that men have problems, not advocating for the return of 1950s culture (though to be fair, there is some things we could learn from the time period). In fact, if we returned to the 1950s I'd hate it. I don't want that kind of pressure put on me.

Your posts touches on modern culture, and I do agree that this plays a role in men's issues. I mentioned in my previous post about having to bear the original sins of oppression I never committed being taught to me. Media doesn't have very many good portrayals of men, and also shuns femineity, both of which are bad things.

Men are supposed to be tough. This isn't EverQuest. It's real life. Welcome to natural selection. Men have different wants and needs than women. If you weren't 14 years old you'd know this. It's actually hilarious how people unironically think men and women are just interchangeable.

This is just how it is. Many people for some reason fail to acknowledge it. I think it's because they want something to be true rather than see what is true.

Also "therapy" is just some middle aged women telling you how to best to be a capitalist cog in the system and not thing about anything. If anything the modern world is "toxic feminism." Just suck it up and be a cuckold.

Disagree. Therapy is effective for some men. I know someone with OCD who's been having great success with therapy who sees a female therapist. My experience with therapy has been very poor. I even had one blame capitalism for all of my problems, which isn't true. Capitalism isn't the problem, and socialism isn't the solution. We all live under the same system, and many people are content with their lives. There is something we can do, and that's what I was trying to get at in my previous post when I said I was trying to "discuss solutions that will work for men since a lot of us haven't been able to find them yet."

I can get into the reasons why therapy doesn't work very well for men, but I've already rambled on long enough. I will say though, you're making generalizations on what therapy is, from what I assume are bad experiences. I've had those bad experiences too, but I can still acknowledge that it is an effective option for some people.

I know you agreed with most of my takes, but unfortunately I don't agree with all of yours. I hope we can continue to have a civil discussion about it.

.....

And one last thing before I head off, having disagreements is one thing, but voicing your disagreements in a way like this is reductive. You're not being respectful in your disagreements. I get that it is coming from a place of anger, but that doesn't mean you should voice your disagreements like this. You're not going to bring anyone over to your side. You're only giving the people who don't like you more ammunition against you. You can either respectfully disagree with someone, or not reply. There is no reason to insult people. This is how threads end up devolving and getting locked. Every single time. I know this because I did it too.

 

[jengablocks]

....

this is really harsh and i didn't mean to say anything so divisive but i'm sorry. if i'm wrong about anything that's okay and i'd welcome being corrected but you dont have to insult me so much.

i wanted to speak of neanderthals' gender roles more than their physical sexual dimorphism, as in that the women would seemingly participate in the hunting in the same way the men would

 

[dragonofenvy]

i think with the gun vs more non-lethal methods u can consider that (in the u.s. at least) more men, especially white men, own guns in the first place

This is such a simple explanation that I can't believe I didn't think of it.

toxic masculinity is in practice just misogyny--things like being emotionally vulnerable or asking for help are traditionally feminine, thus bad. the grass isn't greener, it's just different, and u should try to direct your hatred at the system and those that maintain it instead of people that are suffering just like you

Not entirely sure I'm on board with this. Men are encouraged to ask for help now, and I don't think that most men of today think that getting help makes them lesser. From my experience though, when I did ask for help I would often be put down, ignored, or given the classic lines of "you need to grow up" or "be a man". These lines didn't only come from men either. Also when asking for help, it's very hard for us to articulate our emotions because we're not as used to doing so as women are. It can be scary for us.

 

[dragonofenvy]

I don't give a shit about being polite anymore.

Then I don't give a shit about engaging in conversation, especially since I extended the olive branch to you in the first place, and nobody should give a shit about what you're saying. Many of your ideas are correct, but you're conveying them horribly. Look at the differences between you disagreeing with @jengablocks and me. Who do you think someone would rather converse with?

 

[Steve Vermont]

In the case of the U.S., which has a very high disparity between the sexes, owning a gun is a symbol of masculinity. Gun ownership is correlated with high success in suicide attempts.

 

[dragonofenvy]

Only my truth claims matter to me now.

Anyone using the term "toxic masculinity" unironically is 16 and a moron who hasn't ever made a dime in their life

It's just so out of touch and moronic I can't do anything but spout vitriol.

as if this world today isn't just female utopia with no consequences.

Gee I wonder where they get those ideas about toxic masculinity from. Fighting fire with fire huh? How's that working out? We agree on about 70-80% of what we're saying, and we could've had a conversation about it, but you decided that you just can't help but hate everyone who voices dissent to your worldview. You're better off shutting off the internet for the day. I'm done trying to explain this to you, and I'm not going to cause more drama than I already have here.

 

[jengablocks]

Not entirely sure I'm on board with this. Men are encouraged to ask for help now, and I don't think that most men of today think that getting help makes them lesser. From my experience though, when I did ask for help I would often be put down, ignored, or given the classic lines of "you need to grow up" or "be a man". These lines didn't only come from men either. Also when asking for help, it's very hard for us to articulate our emotions because we're not as used to doing so as women are. It can be scary for us.

i think you're right!! that was a bad example that i gave, but i think lots of instances where men are cruel or dismissive to other men tend to be for when they're doing something that's usually characterized as feminine. i know personally that women actively perpetrate that sort of "man up" thing as much as anyone else, i think it's even worse sometimes. everyone is raised under the same overarching culture after all.

emotional articulation is a skill that has to be built, and a lifetime of being denied chances to build that skill over and over again just sets you up for hardship when you eventually need it. i definitely don't mean to take away from the struggles that men and women can face as being uniquely and tangibly different, just that they're both the result of the same system. i just think creating a division of "who has it harder" that i sometimes see in conversations like these isn't helpful. i promise that it's really hard for both groups, in different ways but for many of the same root reasons.

 

[dragonofenvy]

i just think creating a division of "who has it harder" that i sometimes see in conversations like these isn't helpful. i promise that it's really hard for both groups, in different ways but for many of the same root reasons.

I agree. This brings me back to my old point on my older post. Women have solutions that work for them, men have theirs. If their problems are different, they require different solutions. Using blanket terms and oversimplifying the issues isn't going to help. Nor is putting 100% of the blame on society, or the individual. There's a system we live in, and we have to work in it whether we like it or not.

I don't think these divisions that people create are out of malice. Everyone is hurting and they need to express it somehow. We get posts here about people hating men, and people hating women. They have their reasons for it whether unfounded or not, because everyone lives different lives. I think that perspectives from the opposite sex are important so long as they're productive to the conversation, which unfortunately tends to not happen very often. I think it's because men cannot fully understand women's issues, and women cannot fully understand men's issues. You have to experience them yourself to truly understand them. I've experienced men's issues because I'm not a man, and I know that I won't be able to understand women's issues which is why I no longer engage in those topics, because I know that it's not a topic I will ever be fully capable of understanding even if I think I could offer an alternative perspective. I appreciate the sentiment you've been giving that the struggles each sex faces are unique and difficult, and as you've said, part of the same system. The only issue is finding a solution to it...

 

[darksouls]

In the case of the U.S., which has a very high disparity between the sexes, owning a gun is a symbol of masculinity. Gun ownership is correlated with high success in suicide attempts.

in my country,
far more men than women commit suicide,
the most common methods used by men are hanging, jumping, overdose of medication or drugs, trains, carbon monoxide

 

[Dot]

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[dead dav]

Men don't like to ask for help they bottle things up more and I include myself in this you get to a point when you see no way out except death

 

[fkyou]

Because they are expected to succeed and provide if they fail to have a job or a good paying job they suicide

 

[Daphne]

Actually, women attempt at twice the rate of men but are unsuccessful due to the methods they choose. Men attempt less but succeed more because they use methods with high fatality rates.

Ive been tracking assisted suicide countries and states, and there are more women than men using those programs.

I think if effective drugs were easily available, there would be far more women checking out. Taking pills is easier, cleaner and less violent than other methods.

 

[Hvergelmir]

I don't have much mental energy atm, but there are communities in which men appear to be more open about with their emotions - I see footage from Mediterranean countries & some from Middle East

Some of these countries are more socially collective, which might give that male support that is needed -- am curious as to what suicide rates are in countries which are more collective & emotionally open like that.

You brought up an interesting idea, that I haven't explored before. Rather than speculating about the why the male-to-female ratio exist, maybe there's something to learn from looking at the ratio at different places.

I'm presenting my findings in hope of it somehow giving new insights. Statistical correlations would be more interesting than personal anecdotes. I don't know if there's any meaningful pattern to find.

Unanswered question: Is there any correlation between male "emotional openness", and the male-to-female ratio?

Data from 2023: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/suicide-rate-by-country
Rates are listed as per 100 000.

Country	Suicide rate	Male rate	Female rate	M/F Ratio
Greenland	75.57	108.21	39.10	2.76
Suriname	28.69	46.21	11.66	3.96
South Korea	28.13	39.93	16.26	2.45
Guyana	25.36	42.69	8.34	5.11
United Kingdom	9.39	14.30	4.68	3.05
Ghana	9.32	14.99	3.76	3.98
Costa Rica	9.31	15.74	2.90	5.42
Cameroon	9.30	14.93	3.67	4.06
Morocco	3.83	5.14	2.49	2.06
Philippines	3.79	6.05	1.46	4.14
Honduras	3.69	6.37	1.15	5.53
Saudi Arabia	3.58	4.94	1.41	3.50

The sample was picked in groups of four sorted by total suicide rate; the top four, four in the middle, and four close to the bottom. The very bottom was avoided, due to presumed poor data collection.

In my small sample, the high ratio >5 countries all happened to coincidentally be in South/Central America, with high crime rate, cultural diversity, and male migration, and high prevalence of matrifocal systems.
I didn't find any obvious similarities for the low ratio <3 countries.

There are so many factors, and I don't have time to attempt a robust all-encompassing analysis. Has other work been done, along those lines?

 

[mothlover402]

Because men have objectively shittier lives and have less safety nets than women in the 21st century. Literally it's evolutionary for men to want to care for women no matter the crazy feminist professor who told you otherwise in college. Women like children are automatically helped out by virtue of evolution by men. You can skirt by much longer as a woman by being helpless. A helpless man is seen as disgusting and trash by society. Get mad all you want it's basic evolutionary psychology and obvious to anyone who has lived more than 10 years on this planet. You're just going to be able to get along better when at rock bottom as a woman. It's the same reason 90% of homeless people are men. You REALLY have to fuck up to be a homeless woman. Also when men say they want to die they actually mean it and aren't trying to manipulate people around them. Which is why men use guns and violent methods that actually work over the shitty non deadly poison "suicide attempts" women usually use.

Men have shittier lives. Less safety nets. If you fail it's seen more as your problem while women aren't judged as harshly it's very simple if you actually care about evolution and aren't some neoliberal that actually believes the sexes are exactly the same.

Holy shit you managed to even blame the victim. It's "toxic masculinity" that makes men kill themsevles and it's their own fault. Amazing. Maybe men and women are actually different due to the hormones that course through them? Nah let's just blame men. They are just toxic and that's why they kill themselves. I think you zoomers are just doomed lmao. I can't wait to leave this world soon if this the the average person going to be in it. Absolutely shocking. Men wanting to be masculine is just evil but the ideal woman is just larping as a "toxic" man. Fuck you youngins are so fucked. And there's literally zero issue with men "needing to be strong." It's in our DNA. It's our nature. The modern world has zero adventure or things that bring out the masculine ethos that literally created the nice little insular safe world you currently live in. My god, this forum becomes more Reddit by the day. Midwit as fuck. For "atheists" you sure have tons of dogmatic beliefs based on nothing but what you want the world to be. Disgusting.

Because men have objectively shittier lives and have less safety nets than women in the 21st century. Literally it's evolutionary for men to want to care for women no matter the crazy feminist professor who told you otherwise in college. Women like children are automatically helped out by virtue of evolution by men. You can skirt by much longer as a woman by being helpless. A helpless man is seen as disgusting and trash by society. Get mad all you want it's basic evolutionary psychology and obvious to anyone who has lived more than 10 years on this planet. You're just going to be able to get along better when at rock bottom as a woman. It's the same reason 90% of homeless people are men. You REALLY have to fuck up to be a homeless woman. Also when men say they want to die they actually mean it and aren't trying to manipulate people around them. Which is why men use guns and violent methods that actually work over the shitty non deadly poison "suicide attempts" women usually use.

Men have shittier lives. Less safety nets. If you fail it's seen more as your problem while women aren't judged as harshly it's very simple if you actually care about evolution and aren't some neoliberal that actually believes the sexes are exactly the same.

Holy shit you managed to even blame the victim. It's "toxic masculinity" that makes men kill themsevles and it's their own fault. Amazing. Maybe men and women are actually different due to the hormones that course through them? Nah let's just blame men. They are just toxic and that's why they kill themselves. I think you zoomers are just doomed lmao. I can't wait to leave this world soon if this the the average person going to be in it. Absolutely shocking. Men wanting to be masculine is just evil but the ideal woman is just larping as a "toxic" man. Fuck you youngins are so fucked. And there's literally zero issue with men "needing to be strong." It's in our DNA. It's our nature. The modern world has zero adventure or things that bring out the masculine ethos that literally created the nice little insular safe world you currently live in. My god, this forum becomes more Reddit by the day. Midwit as fuck. For "atheists" you sure have tons of dogmatic beliefs based on nothing but what you want the world to be. Disgusting.

I wasn't "blaming men" women have way more suicidal thoughts and are 2-4 times more likely to attempt suicide and thank you for respecting others beliefs like a good Christian have I ever disrespected your beliefs? No. But I guess you just hate. If you want me too kill myself just give me some methods so it will all be over.

 

[mothlover402]

Because men have objectively shittier lives and have less safety nets than women in the 21st century. Literally it's evolutionary for men to want to care for women no matter the crazy feminist professor who told you otherwise in college. Women like children are automatically helped out by virtue of evolution by men. You can skirt by much longer as a woman by being helpless. A helpless man is seen as disgusting and trash by society. Get mad all you want it's basic evolutionary psychology and obvious to anyone who has lived more than 10 years on this planet. You're just going to be able to get along better when at rock bottom as a woman. It's the same reason 90% of homeless people are men. You REALLY have to fuck up to be a homeless woman. Also when men say they want to die they actually mean it and aren't trying to manipulate people around them. Which is why men use guns and violent methods that actually work over the shitty non deadly poison "suicide attempts" women usually use.

Men have shittier lives. Less safety nets. If you fail it's seen more as your problem while women aren't judged as harshly it's very simple if you actually care about evolution and aren't some neoliberal that actually believes the sexes are exactly the same.

Holy shit you managed to even blame the victim. It's "toxic masculinity" that makes men kill themsevles and it's their own fault. Amazing. Maybe men and women are actually different due to the hormones that course through them? Nah let's just blame men. They are just toxic and that's why they kill themselves. I think you zoomers are just doomed lmao. I can't wait to leave this world soon if this the the average person going to be in it. Absolutely shocking. Men wanting to be masculine is just evil but the ideal woman is just larping as a "toxic" man. Fuck you youngins are so fucked. And there's literally zero issue with men "needing to be strong." It's in our DNA. It's our nature. The modern world has zero adventure or things that bring out the masculine ethos that literally created the nice little insular safe world you currently live in. My god, this forum becomes more Reddit by the day. Midwit as fuck. For "atheists" you sure have tons of dogmatic beliefs based on nothing but what you want the world to be. Disgusting.

You hate on me for my generation and say that men kill themselves more because they have "worse lives" even though women are twice as likely to devolp depression as men are. And more likely to experience domestic violence, sa, pedophilia, stalking, ect... and endometriosis is studied less then male balding and viagra is free but not birth control or period products. And women have such high beauty standards that their 5-10 times more likely to devolp eating disorders. You say that it's feminism (AKA woman standing up for themselves) even though almost all politicians, leaders, and more are men so you have more power over them. Toxic masculinity is the problem men are expected to not cry and be strong, it's okay from them to be weak you say that I'm the problem when your part of the problem. Also just due your research on why men kill themselves, Google is free just search up "Why men kill themselves more" more instead of coming up with with random excuses and blaming feminists.

 

[mothlover402]

While this is true, testosterone also inhibits men's ability to cry. There's also issues of alexithymia that most men have that makes therapy very challenging for them. Not only that, but when men have a problem we have identified it and want to fix it. Therapy doesn't do that. Medications won't fix your problem. A lot of men who kill themselves don't have mental illness, they have shit lives, and therapy doesn't fix a shit life. Coaching however, can help.


Toxic masculinity isn't the reason. This is an oversimplified way of looking at the problem without attempting to address it. In the 1950s when gender roles were at their height, suicide rates are lower than they are now. More people than ever are attending therapy, yet the problems are getting worse. So how would it be toxic masculinity? In fact, in my experience, whenever I tried to get help, I was blatantly ignored. My own mother even said "I don't care" when I told her I was suicidal. This is not a one-sided issue. A lot of men do seek out help, but we're dismissed, and eventually we turn into people like me who don't trust the systems that failed them. Most men today do seek out help because it's accessible, but that help doesn't work for them because therapy as it is today isn't designed for men. Men have much different ways of coping and solving their problems than women do. The solution isn't giving a blanket term of "oh toxic masculinity is the problem" but rather discussing solutions that will work for men since a lot of us haven't been able to find them yet.

It's also a problem in women I was also ignored by my dad. When I self-harmed he just yelled at me for getting blood everywhere. Women are twice as likely to devolp depression and 2-4 times more likely to attempt suicide. This is because men are more likely to have guns which made suicide much easier. Men also choose methods like handing and jumping well women often poison themselves and end up failing. But if you look up why men commit suicide more it's because their less likely to seek help and because they choose more violent ways.

 

[Dot]

Jst sw an interstng pst on Twittr whch fcusd on suicde interventn in Finlnd whn thr mle suicde r8tes wre v hgh

Thy usd holistc measres & reducd mle suicdes b/ 60% in 30 yrs

 

[Sadbanana]

I don't know if it's politically correct to say it, but it's misandry. The idea that men deserve less empathy and have to earn their worth.

 

[darksouls]

Actually, women attempt at twice the rate of men but are unsuccessful due to the methods they choose. Men attempt less but succeed more because they use methods with high fatality rates.

Ive been tracking assisted suicide countries and states, and there are more women than men using those programs.

I think if effective drugs were easily available, there would be far more women checking out. Taking pills is easier, cleaner and less violent than other methods.

I agree with you that men more often choose methods that are successful,
but I think the number of statistically unrecorded failed attempts is very high for men,
because men are more ashamed than women and keep failed attempts secret

It's also a problem in women I was also ignored by my dad. When I self-harmed he just yelled at me for getting blood everywhere. Women are twice as likely to devolp depression and 2-4 times more likely to attempt suicide. This is because men are more likely to have guns which made suicide much easier. Men also choose methods like handing and jumping well women often poison themselves and end up failing. But if you look up why men commit suicide more it's because their less likely to seek help and because they choose more violent ways.

depressions often go unnoticed in men because they hide the symptoms

 

[Hvergelmir]

Thy usd holistc measres & reducd mle suicdes b/ 60% in 30 yrs

The sources are sadly behind a pay wall.

If it worked as well as claimed, I'd be curious to know why, and in what way gendering was necessary. I'm always concerned when a proposed solution involves allocating more resources to a particular group. It's an obvious but lazy solution, that risks ending up as a patchwork of systems tailored for different groups, with some groups missing out.

 

[dragonofenvy]

depressions often go unnoticed in men because they hide the symptoms

Another thing a lot people, especially women who look into male issues don't realize is that male depression is very different from female depression. Many men share the same symptoms but don't realize they're depressed due to not being able to identify how they feel (alexithymia). We also tend to mask the symptoms with drug and alcohol abuse (I wonder what the statistics say about that...). However, men like myself don't exhibit depression as a constant sadness, but rather a constant anger. This makes it extremely difficult to get a diagnosis unless you're dealing with someone who knows this, which in my case was a psychologist who dealt with depression himself and knew what to look for.

I still feel sadness too, it's not just anger, but for me anger is the primary emotion. I could be wrong, and the resources I looked at also could be wrong. I've known a lot of guys who don't have anywhere close to the same experience, but also many who have.

patchwork of systems tailored for different groups, with some groups missing out.

Would different groups not require different solutions? Of course some groups will miss out, but if someone is excluded that shouldn't mean that the whole thing shouldn't be implemented. You go from having 90% of people being helped to 0%, and the problem festers and worsens.

 

[Hvergelmir]

Would different groups not require different solutions?

Rather specific problems require specific solutions. I have a hard time seeing male suicidality as a separate problem. My guess is that the gender isn't a true factor, but a coincident. As such I'd like a solution that coincidentally benefit men, rather than targeting them directly.

It's mostly a hunch, but I think a more generalized solution is possible.
While I'm generally for traditional genders and what not, it seem conceptually flawed that suicide prevention or other mental health efforts would rely on my gender.
The real question boils down to: Do men and women suffer from fundamentally different mental health challenges, or is it just the statistical spreads that differ?

 

[itsgone2]

Jst sw an interstng pst on Twittr whch fcusd on suicde interventn in Finlnd whn thr mle suicde r8tes wre v hgh

Thy usd holistc measres & reducd mle suicdes b/ 60% in 30 yrs

This is encouraging.
I wonder if any other countries tried the methods.
Otherwise, I think it's just going to remain this way. Even on this site anytime the topic comes up these arguments happen. I don't know why but I guess it doesn't matter now. I plan to be part of the statistic so what's the difference anyway

 

[Dot]

The sources are sadly behind a pay wall.

If it worked as well as claimed, I'd be curious to know why, and in what way gendering was necessary. I'm always concerned when a proposed solution involves allocating more resources to a particular group. It's an obvious but lazy solution, that risks ending up as a patchwork of systems tailored for different groups, with some groups missing out.

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