Why is there a connection between religious beliefs and mental illnesses? What came first?

[noname223]

I would be interested in the take of universal genius @DarkRange55 on this. We discussed that in our self-help group.

Why is there a connection between religious beliefs and mental illness? What was first: Religion/religious beliefs or mental illnesses? Where does mental illness start and when does religion end?

I was in a clinic for psychotic people. Many there heard voices, thought they could communicate with God, some thought they were Jesus Christ or a missionary.
Many people with depression feel guilty for having suicidal thoughts. For me this was stronger as long as I was somewhat of a beliefer. Furthermore, there is the symptom you feel like a higher power wants to punish you.

Personally, I was pretty desperate recently and prayed to God. It made me a little bit paranoid and if I went down that road I thought I would have gotten delusional. Gladly I stopped.

I am not smart enough to get it. But I was interested in quantum physics and its implication on philosophy. It sounds smart if you say something like that but I think I stayed at the surface and might even got that wrong. I watched it in German and I don't know the proper translations.
There are theories that freewill is an illusion (but that's not quantum physics I think) if you deduce it with natural laws. There are scientifical theories that we live in a simulation. Anton Zeilinger says that our understanding of reality is probably distorted. Moreover, our understanding of time and space. Quantum entanglement seems to show that there is a real and fake coincidence/hazard.

What do I want to say with that? Also in this instance there seems to be a connection. I met some people with schizophrenia/psychosis who were interested in quantum physics. But probably most of them similar to me did not really understand it and just took interpretations that fit to their individual delusional thinking. (Like my theory on the theodicee and solipsism as a solution for that problem. I never told that story because it increased my paranoia and the theory might be pathetic.) Maybe this shows that there is also a connection between science and delusional thinking. But here it is obvious science had to come first and then the delusional thinking could adpat to it. Maybe this also applies to religion. It even seems to be likely (?) Aren't there animals with mental illnesses? I am not sure whether the comparison fits/we cannot look into their head it seems unlikey for them to have religious delusions. On the other hand are there animals who have a sense for the afterlife for example. I think monkeys for example might have.

Another similar question is: was religion invented by humans? Are mental illnesses invented by humans? Not a few people seem to have a sense for spirituality. It seems to be manifested in our nature.

I ask myself how mental illnesses look like in cultures which are diametrical to the ones we live in. In the past (and in some places still) people get tortured for being mentally ill or they are seen as gurus/saints etc.

I have no final answer for it.

 

[Forever Sleep]

This is such an interesting thread.

It triggered a few memories for me. Have you seen the 1988 film: 'The Last Temptation of Christ'? To speak truthfully, I am still only part way through it. I can't actually remember why I stopped watching it but anyhow- I remember Willem Dafoe (playing Jesus) saying that he was being tormented by voices in his head and- seeing as he knew a person could expel the devil, they had to be from God.

I suppose I just think that, as a race, when we don't know something, we naturally look for answers. I suppose in the past and even now, religion has been a good story telling machine. Now though, I think we're all kind of obsessed with our mental health. Anything we feel we find difficult in life, suddenly we can blame it on some neurological dysfunction. It can be a relief in a sense. Especially if you think it's something that can be cured.

That's not to say I don't believe in mental illness. I think, very clearly there are things that hamper us but it does seem so prevalent now. Most people think they have some affliction or another. Sometimes, multiple afflictions. Me included by the way- I'm susceptible to all this too.

I think we just like to label things as humans. We like to try to understand ourselves. It can be useful to have a diagnosis too. Whether it's official or self diagnosed. Recognizing obsessive behaviour for me in the form of limerence (most likely) and (borderline) eating disorders means I can kind of remove myself from the situation and try to control my actions rather than just being lead by the nose by my crazy, obsessive impulses.

The whole idea of an objective reality is interesting. Isn't all experience of reality subjective? Maybe someone off their face on hallucinogenics or in a psychotic episode is going to see things differently than the majority of people. But, is that how we decide what is the 'real' reality? As in- it's the one most people agree they are perceiving? But even that changes over time. Religions change, social and political ideas change. Hell- we may not even all see colour the same way! Animals experiece time differently to us. Who's 'right'? We all are in terms of our own experience and- who gives a shit if there's someone in the forest anyway when that tree fell? It still made a sound! I don't think the world would cease to exist if all the lifeforms were wiped out tomorrow. It's just that there wouldn't be any witnesses.

As for reality- everyone's experience of it is surely unique. Again, that reminds me of the 2010 film: 'Inception'. Where, they are talking about a group of people who spend their lives dreaming:

- 'They come here every day to sleep?!'

- 'No... they come to be woken up. The dream has become their reality. Who are you to say otherwise, sir?'

But yes- of course we either discovered or invented religion and mental illness. With no humans, would there be religion? Maybe there would still be neurological dysfunction. That's still illness I suppose. It would probably be less prevalent though. Look at the things that tend to make animals go nuts- being trapped in small cages. Being sociable animals and having abandonment anxiety. Probably all the toxic waste we are dumping on them isn't doing them much good either. Of course, there are natural 'nasties' out there. Neurotoxins that turn insects into zombies. Horrible things like that. I guess they would still exist whether David Attenborough did a documentary on them or not!

But, I find it typically egotistic of our race that we think we can actually find a 'truth' that isn't reliant on our own perception. How could we? Surely, all we have is our own perception. Then, isn't it simply a competition as to who is the most clever? I don't know. Maybe there's some maths equation for it all. That seems just as mystical to me as religion! How can a sequence of numbers and letters predict how a physical thing will operate? Seems bonkers to me.

 

[sserafim]

I would be interested in the take of universal genius @DarkRange55 on this. We discussed that in our self-help group.

Why is there a connection between religious beliefs and mental illness? What was first: Religion/religious beliefs or mental illnesses? Where does mental illness start and when does religion end?

I was in a clinic for psychotic people. Many there heard voices, thought they could communicate with God, some thought they were Jesus Christ or a missionary.
Many people with depression feel guilty for having suicidal thoughts. For me this was stronger as long as I was somewhat of a beliefer. Furthermore, there is the symptom you feel like a higher power wants to punish you.

Personally, I was pretty desperate recently and prayed to God. It made me a little bit paranoid and if I went down that road I thought I would have gotten delusional. Gladly I stopped.

I am not smart enough to get it. But I was interested in quantum physics and its implication on philosophy. It sounds smart if you say something like that but I think I stayed at the surface and might even got that wrong. I watched it in German and I don't know the proper translations.
There are theories that freewill is an illusion (but that's not quantum physics I think) if you deduce it with natural laws. There are scientifical theories that we live in a simulation. Anton Zeilinger says that our understanding of reality is probably distorted. Moreover, our understanding of time and space. Quantum entanglement seems to show that there is a real and fake coincidence/hazard.

What do I want to say with that? Also in this instance there seems to be a connection. I met some people with schizophrenia/psychosis who were interested in quantum physics. But probably most of them similar to me did not really understand it and just took interpretations that fit to their individual delusional thinking. (Like my theory on the theodicee and solipsism as a solution for that problem. I never told that story because it increased my paranoia and the theory might be pathetic.) Maybe this shows that there is also a connection between science and delusional thinking. But here it is obvious science had to come first and then the delusional thinking could adpat to it. Maybe this also applies to religion. It even seems to be likely (?) Aren't there animals with mental illnesses? I am not sure whether the comparison fits/we cannot look into their head it seems unlikey for them to have religious delusions. On the other hand are there animals who have a sense for the afterlife for example. I think monkeys for example might have.

Another similar question is: was religion invented by humans? Are mental illnesses invented by humans? Not a few people seem to have a sense for spirituality. It seems to be manifested in our nature.

I ask myself how mental illnesses look like in cultures which are diametrical to the ones we live in. In the past (and in some places still) people get tortured for being mentally ill or they are seen as gurus/saints etc.

I have no final answer for it.

I think that religion was invented by humans to explain things that they couldn't at the time.

 

[1MiserableGuy]

I conducted research on this junior year of college and found the opposite to be true—a connection between involvement of religious activities, regardless of whatever the religion may be, and better coping skills with suffering and the like. Next time you say something full of shit, at least give the common courtesy to spray some Febreze so I can't smell your rhetoric emitting from my speakers.

 

[noname223]

I conducted research on this junior year of college and found the opposite to be true—a connection between involvement of religious activities, regardless of whatever the religion may be, and better coping skills with suffering and the like. Next time you say something full of shit, at least give the common courtesy to spray some Febreze so I can't smell your rhetoric emitting from my speakers.

In which sense is this the opposition? As if religious delusions were the opposite of religion as a coping skill. This claim is hilarious. Of course both can be true. Due to the fact both statements don't contradict each other. There are people who can cope better with religious beliefs. And there are people who can go down the religious insane/psychotic rabbit hole.

This is such an interesting thread.

It triggered a few memories for me. Have you seen the 1988 film: 'The Last Temptation of Christ'? To speak truthfully, I am still only part way through it. I can't actually remember why I stopped watching it but anyhow- I remember Willem Dafoe (playing Jesus) saying that he was being tormented by voices in his head and- seeing as he knew a person could expel the devil, they had to be from God.

I suppose I just think that, as a race, when we don't know something, we naturally look for answers. I suppose in the past and even now, religion has been a good story telling machine. Now though, I think we're all kind of obsessed with our mental health. Anything we feel we find difficult in life, suddenly we can blame it on some neurological dysfunction. It can be a relief in a sense. Especially if you think it's something that can be cured.

That's not to say I don't believe in mental illness. I think, very clearly there are things that hamper us but it does seem so prevalent now. Most people think they have some affliction or another. Sometimes, multiple afflictions. Me included by the way- I'm susceptible to all this too.

I think we just like to label things as humans. We like to try to understand ourselves. It can be useful to have a diagnosis too. Whether it's official or self diagnosed. Recognizing obsessive behaviour for me in the form of limerence (most likely) and (borderline) eating disorders means I can kind of remove myself from the situation and try to control my actions rather than just being lead by the nose by my crazy, obsessive impulses.

The whole idea of an objective reality is interesting. Isn't all experience of reality subjective? Maybe someone off their face on hallucinogenics or in a psychotic episode is going to see things differently than the majority of people. But, is that how we decide what is the 'real' reality? As in- it's the one most people agree they are perceiving? But even that changes over time. Religions change, social and political ideas change. Hell- we may not even all see colour the same way! Animals experiece time differently to us. Who's 'right'? We all are in terms of our own experience and- who gives a shit if there's someone in the forest anyway when that tree fell? It still made a sound! I don't think the world would cease to exist if all the lifeforms were wiped out tomorrow. It's just that there wouldn't be any witnesses.

As for reality- everyone's experience of it is surely unique. Again, that reminds me of the 2010 film: 'Inception'. Where, they are talking about a group of people who spend their lives dreaming:

- 'They come here every day to sleep?!'

- 'No... they come to be woken up. The dream has become their reality. Who are you to say otherwise, sir?'

But yes- of course we either discovered or invented religion and mental illness. With no humans, would there be religion? Maybe there would still be neurological dysfunction. That's still illness I suppose. It would probably be less prevalent though. Look at the things that tend to make animals go nuts- being trapped in small cages. Being sociable animals and having abandonment anxiety. Probably all the toxic waste we are dumping on them isn't doing them much good either. Of course, there are natural 'nasties' out there. Neurotoxins that turn insects into zombies. Horrible things like that. I guess they would still exist whether David Attenborough did a documentary on them or not!

But, I find it typically egotistic of our race that we think we can actually find a 'truth' that isn't reliant on our own perception. How could we? Surely, all we have is our own perception. Then, isn't it simply a competition as to who is the most clever? I don't know. Maybe there's some maths equation for it all. That seems just as mystical to me as religion! How can a sequence of numbers and letters predict how a physical thing will operate? Seems bonkers to me.

Thanks for the compliment. I did not watch that film but I appreciate your comment. It was interesting to read.

 

[DefinitelyReady]

I would be interested in the take of universal genius @DarkRange55 on this. We discussed that in our self-help group.

Why is there a connection between religious beliefs and mental illness? What was first: Religion/religious beliefs or mental illnesses? Where does mental illness start and when does religion end?

I was in a clinic for psychotic people. Many there heard voices, thought they could communicate with God, some thought they were Jesus Christ or a missionary.
Many people with depression feel guilty for having suicidal thoughts. For me this was stronger as long as I was somewhat of a beliefer. Furthermore, there is the symptom you feel like a higher power wants to punish you.

Personally, I was pretty desperate recently and prayed to God. It made me a little bit paranoid and if I went down that road I thought I would have gotten delusional. Gladly I stopped.

I am not smart enough to get it. But I was interested in quantum physics and its implication on philosophy. It sounds smart if you say something like that but I think I stayed at the surface and might even got that wrong. I watched it in German and I don't know the proper translations.
There are theories that freewill is an illusion (but that's not quantum physics I think) if you deduce it with natural laws. There are scientifical theories that we live in a simulation. Anton Zeilinger says that our understanding of reality is probably distorted. Moreover, our understanding of time and space. Quantum entanglement seems to show that there is a real and fake coincidence/hazard.

What do I want to say with that? Also in this instance there seems to be a connection. I met some people with schizophrenia/psychosis who were interested in quantum physics. But probably most of them similar to me did not really understand it and just took interpretations that fit to their individual delusional thinking. (Like my theory on the theodicee and solipsism as a solution for that problem. I never told that story because it increased my paranoia and the theory might be pathetic.) Maybe this shows that there is also a connection between science and delusional thinking. But here it is obvious science had to come first and then the delusional thinking could adpat to it. Maybe this also applies to religion. It even seems to be likely (?) Aren't there animals with mental illnesses? I am not sure whether the comparison fits/we cannot look into their head it seems unlikey for them to have religious delusions. On the other hand are there animals who have a sense for the afterlife for example. I think monkeys for example might have.

Another similar question is: was religion invented by humans? Are mental illnesses invented by humans? Not a few people seem to have a sense for spirituality. It seems to be manifested in our nature.

I ask myself how mental illnesses look like in cultures which are diametrical to the ones we live in. In the past (and in some places still) people get tortured for being mentally ill or they are seen as gurus/saints etc.

I have no final answer for it.

... the egg

 

[LilysAngel]

This is an interesting theory. I do not believe I can contribute as I have never been involved with religion, but I have enjoyed reading this thread. Thank you for posting this theory.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Nothing scientific here but let's assume that schizophrenia and psychosis are mental illnesses since thousands of years. Maybe some of those people who "heard voices" and could "see things" that others couldn't see found a way to deal with their mental problems and they could influence other people - who were obviously impressed and really believed to see a holy person, someone sent from god. That's how religions could have been invented or manifested. Probably some or all of the prophets in the bible suffered from mental illness in one or another way.

We don't know and we may never have a real proof how strong ancient people really believed and whether they were really believing without any doubts and questioning. I hope my thoughts make some sense.