Venting Why can't forced-lifers leave us alone?

[lilyistootired]

It is innately infuriating that the mere option of suicide for others is so patently objectionable to them.

I've had family, even after conceding every point on suffering, tell me that society has a right to ban suicide on the basis that too many intelligent people would kill themselves and make life hard for everyone else because they couldn't access the intelligence/labor of the dead. I'm not asking for anything from them except to leave us alone, and apparently that's too much because it deprives them of the right of eternal access to our own existence.

Maybe I'm being irrational, I don't believe that non-existence is innately preferable over existence, but the fact that such a staggering majority of society, regardless of their beliefs on anything else, sees fit to tell the people suffering most that they may not help each other or plainly analyze their suffering without predetermined conclusions is going to drive me insane. Maybe I'm not as suicidal as some others, maybe I'm not as calculated, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that plainly keeping miserable people around is fucked. I don't innately hate existence, and I wish more than anything that someone could magically save me but that doesn't happen, and no one has any duty to. But if no one has a duty to save me could that at least agree to not interfere then when we actually start to consider our own situations and not declare the mere fact that we can communicate and share ideas to be a public danger, a crime, or manipulating the vulnerable just because we aren't willing to suffer infinitely for vague promises of improvement backed by no tangible evidence?

 

[Fadenself00_]

death bad life good suicide bad and crazy oooga booga ooga booga eeeiioooooo

 

[dragonofenvy]

Because their empathy is self-serving. They're not trying to make you feel better, they're trying to show the world how good of a person they are to other people. They don't care about your suffering. They care about using your suffering to make themselves feel good that they're on the right side, and the only reason they're on the right side is because enough people agreed with them. If the opposite opinion were to gain traction they'd quickly trend hop to agree with it.

 

[lilyistootired]

Because their empathy is self-serving. They're not trying to make you feel better, they're trying to show the world how good of a person they are to other people. They don't care about your suffering. They care about using your suffering to make themselves feel good that they're on the right side, and the only reason they're on the right side is because enough people agreed with them. If the opposite opinion were to gain traction they'd quickly trend hop to agree with it.

Maybe it is that simple, but some of the people espousing this seem genuinely empathetic in other non-self serving ways so I'd like to believe that maybe there's more to it? I'd say that at the very least it's certainly a deep form of social entitlement altogether though when one of the leading reasons not to do it provided routinely is "other people would be sad" because, sure, let's force someone to suffer indefinitely to avoid our own discomfort, nothing wrong with that.

I tend to not believe the vast majority of people are just cruel, maybe I'm wrong, perhaps it's also a form of secular dogma? In the same way that sometimes various proselytes will insist that if you just believe in God and do XYZ things will get better, they've been socialized from day one that it can always get better and that "it gets better" isn't a sentence in need of justification, it's just the way of life, so it's never critically examined. In the same way that backhanded tactics targeted at the vulnerable are justified by various sects saying they just want to make sure people are saved even if they have to break various rules, same way the basic rules of treating people as adults and honesty can be broken to save someone from death under the cause of prevention.

edit: sorry for the long-winded reply, I just don't know how normally empathetic people can be so careless as to argue for effectively forced labor instead of admitting there's an individual right to self-determination over life or death.

 

[Lamentice]

I've had family, even after conceding every point on suffering, tell me that society has a right to ban suicide on the basis that too many intelligent people would kill themselves and make life hard for everyone else because they couldn't access the intelligence/labor of the dead. I'm not asking for anything from them except to leave us alone, and apparently that's too much because it deprives them of the right of eternal access to our own existence.

Holy fuck, holy fuck, what? That's just so transparently.. evil honestly; completely transparent endorsement of exploitation.

To answer your main question though, most people are profoundly uncomfortable with death. Suicide makes them have to face discomfort they don't have the capacity for: suffering, dystopia, death. Humans will do anything to avoid/minimize discomfort, it's instinctual. They are projecting--as humans always are--so that they can minimize their own discomfort.

I mean.. suicide is "the unforgivable sin" in religions, everything else can and will be forgiven: rape, abuse, murder, but not suicide, you will not be forgiven for suicide.
Did you take someone else's life? Forgiven.
Did you beat, neglect, and starve the disabled relative you have guardianship over? Forgiven.
Did you molest your own children? Forgiven.
Did you live a life full of grief and suffering and eventually kill yourself out of desperation to relieve pain? No peace for you, Not forgiven.

It all comes back to what your own family openly admitted: they're okay with the suffering, they're okay with the misery and the grief, they're okay with the harm and the dystopia, they're okay with the exploitation, just don't fucking make them uncomfortable.

 

[lilyistootired]

Holy fuck, holy fuck, what? That's just so transparently.. evil honestly; completely transparent endorsement of exploitation.

To answer your main question though, most people are profoundly uncomfortable with death. Suicide makes them have to face discomfort they don't have the capacity for: suffering, dystopia, death. Humans will do anything to avoid/minimize discomfort, it's instinctual. They are projecting--as humans always are--so that they can minimize their own discomfort.

I mean.. suicide is "the unforgivable sin" in religions, everything else can and will be forgiven: rape, abuse, murder, but not suicide, you will not be forgiven for suicide.
Did you take someone else's life? Forgiven.
Did you beat, neglect, and starve the disabled relative you have guardianship over? Forgiven.
Did you molest your own children? Forgiven.
Did you live a life full of grief and suffering and eventually kill yourself out of desperation to relieve pain? No peace for you, Not forgiven.

It all comes back to what your own family openly admitted: they're okay with the suffering, they're okay with the misery and the grief, they're okay with the harm and the dystopia, they're okay with the exploitation, just don't fucking make them uncomfortable.

I mean they didn't say "deprived of labor" but did absolutely say society would suffer without intelligent people to solve it's problems, and that intelligent people would mostly just kill themselves if not forced to remain; my family has the funny tendency of being maybe slightly worse than average but being willing to say things so blatantly awful that most people would avoid because they'll concede every logical point eventually but refuse to concede defeat on the actual belief. I'm not the only suicidal one in my family, I have a sibling suicidal in no small part due to my mother's handling of things and when this sibling told my mother that the way she was handling situations was one of the major reasons she didn't want to exist my mothers response was that they'd get her medicated but the way she ran the house/family was not negotiable.

On some level I just want to believe that people aren't truly that selfish, that it all has to be a massive misunderstanding, because if 95% of people are that awful on this topic, I'm probably just as awful on others as well.

 

[Lamentice]

I just don't know how normally empathetic people can be so careless as to argue for effectively forced labor instead of admitting there's an individual right to self-determination over life or death.

Philophers debate over whether empathy is real. I don't believe it is. Not as the dictionary definition of "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another person." That's not possible.

Empathy is a form of projection, because it's really all humans have.

"How would I feel if I was in this situation, under these circumstances, with this conext? How would I feel..?"
And then they take that imaginary understanding of another's emotion--that is in actuality all their own--and project it onto them. Which I think is more closely what sympathy is, but empathy, the dictionary definition, is not a real phenomenon or experience.

Simply put, it's impossible to ever be in another person's head: then it's impossible to understand their emotions and experiences. We only have our own thoughts, perspectives, biases, and experiences that we then project.

It's not to discredit the skill of sympathy, or compassion, or whatever, but it's to reality check humans' grandiose ego of their own capabilities, consciousness, and emotional complexity. We're animals with an over-inflated sense of self.

 

[Pluto]

 

[FuneralCry]

I understand, it's just such terrible extreme cruelty how these people do all they can to force others to suffer in this existence so dreadful and torturous, forcing people to suffer is criminal to me, all that anti-suicide does is just cause way more torture and suffering in this existence where there is no limit as to how much agony one can feel. It's just so terrible how we exist in this prison anti-suicide world where the suffering and torture of existing is seen as to force and prolong no matter what.