Discussion Who's forgiveness is worth the most?

[Forever Sleep]

I've absolutely done things in life I now regret. When I started uni, I was only too glad to escape my (toxic) home environment and concentrate on making a new life for myself. I've done that a few times now- moving to new places to do new jobs. And, each time, I've been so consumed with that that I've neglected to keep in touch with some people. People who did huge amounts for me. They've now died so, it's not like I can either apologise or, make it up to them.

Also, when I was young, I was cruel to insects. It's not something I even entirely know the motives behind. I was being bullied at the time but then, who isn't at school? Plus, I don't believe in trying to shift the blame the whole time. My Dad likes to say I was too young to fully understand, which was maybe true at the start but, I don't know. I think there was a sadistic streak there though. Thankfully, it's passed now.

In any regard though, I sometimes wonder about forgiveness. I'm not religious but it makes me curious with people who are- those where confession is part of the process. Does it truly make them feel lighter? As if all their sin has in fact been washed away? I'm not so sure that if either the being I wronged, a priest or even God themself told me I was forgiven that it would be enough. I don't think I can forgive myself. I'm not sure that I should either. I think it's better to hold on to some shame/ guilt to try to ensure we don't repeat the behaviour.

How about you? What is your relationship with self forgiveness?

 

[SchizoGymnast]

I've absolutely done things in life I now regret. When I started uni, I was only too glad to escape my (toxic) home environment and concentrate on making a new life for myself. I've done that a few times now- moving to new places to do new jobs. And, each time, I've been so consumed with that that I've neglected to keep in touch with some people. People who did huge amounts for me. They've now died so, it's not like I can either apologise or, make it up to them.

That's a regret that's hard to take, but try to view it in context...how many hours you were working, what you were struggling with, distance, whatever it may be. It doesn't change anything but it can prevent the guilt from being overpowering. The truth is we live in a society that prizes individualism and none of us are immune from that influence.

Also, when I was young, I was cruel to insects. It's not something I even entirely know the motives behind. I was being bullied at the time but then, who isn't at school? Plus, I don't believe in trying to shift the blame the whole time. My Dad likes to say I was too young to fully understand, which was maybe true at the start but, I don't know. I think there was a sadistic streak there though. Thankfully, it's passed now.

This might be a hot take but I think when you're young, it's not uncommon to a) not fully understand that other things are alive and have feelings and b) "experiment" with antisocial behavior. Is it really that bad? Is this who I am? And we find "safe" ways to act this out until we realize this isn't who we want to be. I also had a bit of a sadistic streak when I was younger and it's hard to face.

In any regard though, I sometimes wonder about forgiveness. I'm not religious but it makes me curious with people who are- those where confession is part of the process. Does it truly make them feel lighter? As if all their sin has in fact been washed away?

Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. For me, confession is less about assuaging guilt than making a regular practice of observing and naming the problem. And having the knowledge that a new start is possible. You don't have to feel it. You just have to do it.

I'm not so sure that if either the being I wronged, a priest or even God themself told me I was forgiven that it would be enough. I don't think I can forgive myself. I'm not sure that I should either. I think it's better to hold on to some shame/ guilt to try to ensure we don't repeat the behaviour.

I would say that what you're describing is regret, and to me that's something different. To me, regret is the memory of and the acknowledgement of the wrong. Guilt/shame are the lingering aftereffects. Regret can be good. I wouldn't advice shame or guilt unless it's something really really serious and, in my opinion, intentional.

How about you? What is your relationship with self forgiveness?

Self forgiveness is the hardest part and you won't necessarily feel it. You have to make a decision to just do it. It's a sort of resignation that, okay, it's over now. At least for me

 

[darksouls]

everything is meaningless to me

 

[Forever Sleep]

Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. For me, confession is less about assuaging guilt than making a regular practice of observing and naming the problem. And having the knowledge that a new start is possible. You don't have to feel it. You just have to do it.

That's a great way to use it. All of what you said makes sense actually.

Yes, I think it is more a lingering guilt for me that I didn't reciprocate other people's care enough.

The worst part is, I haven't reformed! I'm still focussed on my own work and needs. There are fewer people to care about now. Most have died now. But yeah- I suppose I did what you described. I looked at who I was, how I acted- especially if it was negatively and, tried to work out why.

I think I became so selfish because it struck me early on that I was on my own. Not that my parents were neglectful in a practical sense but, there were other issues going on that made it feel like they had to prioritise the needs of a (suspected) narcissist in the family. Plus, the thing I got so absorbed in was my coping mechanism in trying to hide from this person. It's weird I have them to almost 'thank' for becoming so focussed on the thing that at least used to sustain me.

That in itself I find weird though. That we can identify a negative trait in ourselves. Possibly why we have it but then, not feel so bad that we address it. I guess life experience also tended to teach me that other people were like me- just as selfish. So, on the occassions I did really care, sometimes that in turn wasn't always reciprocated. Karma maybe...

everything is meaningless to me

I've wondered in the past whether some suicidal people were good candidates for having reached a state of enlightenment. Having let all meaning shed away. But then, you'd hope it would be more pleasurable and freeing really.

Is the lack of meaning you feel hurtful/ meaningful to you though?

 

[SchizoGymnast]

That's a great way to use it. All of what you said makes sense actually.

Yes, I think it is more a lingering guilt for me that I didn't reciprocate other people's care enough.

The worst part is, I haven't reformed! I'm still focussed on my own work and needs. There are fewer people to care about now. Most have died now. But yeah- I suppose I did what you described. I looked at who I was, how I acted- especially if it was negatively and, tried to work out why.

I think I became so selfish because it struck me early on that I was on my own. Not that my parents were neglectful in a practical sense but, there were other issues going on that made it feel like they had to prioritise the needs of a (suspected) narcissist in the family. Plus, the thing I got so absorbed in was my coping mechanism in trying to hide from this person. It's weird I have them to almost 'thank' for becoming so focussed on the thing that at least used to sustain me.

Survival is a short term deal. It forces you to do things that long term could wreck you, but for now, you get to live another day. Fighting off sleep long term can shorten your life, but can literally save your life if you're acutely hypothermic. Over time, your body stores the memory of survival and continues doing the thing...even though now it's a problem. Think starvation mode when people try to cut calories.

That in itself I find weird though. That we can identify a negative trait in ourselves. Possibly why we have it but then, not feel so bad that we address it. I guess life experience also tended to teach me that other people were like me- just as selfish. So, on the occassions I did really care, sometimes that in turn wasn't always reciprocated. Karma maybe...

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you? Because I can personally attest that you can be aware of something for years...but until you are developmentally ready to do something, it's not going to happen. A toddler can listen to adults talk all day, they're aware of what's being said, but they won't be fluent talkers until their brains and speech muscles allow them to be. And that obviously takes time. I'm 35 and I just recently became able to do things that are second nature to most people much younger than me. But once the click happened, I took off like a rocket.

I've wondered in the past whether some suicidal people were good candidates for having reached a state of enlightenment. Having let all meaning shed away. But then, you'd hope it would be more pleasurable and freeing really.

Is the lack of meaning you feel hurtful/ meaningful to you though?

The lack of meaning would make it easier to overcome SI, but the overall experience, for me, would be filled with regret. And some people, especially in other cultures, find suicide to be a profoundly meaningful statement.

 

[Pluto]

 

[Forever Sleep]

Survival is a short term deal. It forces you to do things that long term could wreck you, but for now, you get to live another day. Fighting off sleep long term can shorten your life, but can literally save your life if you're acutely hypothermic. Over time, your body stores the memory of survival and continues doing the thing...even though now it's a problem. Think starvation mode when people try to cut calories.



If you don't mind me asking, how old are you? Because I can personally attest that you can be aware of something for years...but until you are developmentally ready to do something, it's not going to happen. A toddler can listen to adults talk all day, they're aware of what's being said, but they won't be fluent talkers until their brains and speech muscles allow them to be. And that obviously takes time. I'm 35 and I just recently became able to do things that are second nature to most people much younger than me. But once the click happened, I took off like a rocket.



The lack of meaning would make it easier to overcome SI, but the overall experience, for me, would be filled with regret. And some people, especially in other cultures, find suicide to be a profoundly meaningful statement.

I'm 45. I'm not sure it is always age affecting things though. I also think it's how open you are to change. I've been so set on the idea of death the past few years that I'm not so willing to put effort into life pursuits. It's taking enough effort simply to tread water.