The ethics of CTB while having kids

[Singapope]

I see a lot of parents in this forum and it honestly makes me uncomfortable.

I think it's justified to CTB even if it hurts your other loved ones, because you are not responsible for them or their feelings. You don't owe to your parents, your friends or even your spouse, they all have made conscious decisions to become a part of your life with all that it entails.

But if you have kids and want to kill yourself, I think that's simply not ethical. As if it wasn't enough to have brought them into a world where suffering is so commonplace, now you want to scar them forever by committing suicide. They had no say in this matter, you brought them here out of your own volition and you're 100% responsible for what happens to them.

And I don't care about the counterargument that having a depressed parent is worse than no parent at all. People should think about this before deciding to have children. The only correct course of action in this case is to learn to fake it and endure the rest of your life while trying to minimize the damage.

What are your thoughts?

EDIT: after some discussion I have partially changed my mind about what I said. I think there might be different courses of action other than "faking it", like the one suggested by Lost in a Dream here. It is possible that for some of you CTB might be the least harmful solution, given that you provide some means for your kids to cope.

However the crux of the issue is that people should think about having children in the first place. Is it so unreasonable to ask that everyone make a serious commitment to life before having a child? I know issues can arise later, but all the reasonably foreseeable risks should be tallied up when making such a grave decision.

 

[Ghost2211]

Didn't we just do this? How's the weather up on your high horse?

 

[Singapope]

Didn't we just do this? How's the weather up on your high horse?

I'm sorry if there was another discussion about it, I didn't see it.

I don't think it's arrogant to say what I said. Please elaborate.

 

[TheQ22]

I see a lot of parents in this forum and it honestly makes me uncomfortable.

...

And I don't care about the counterargument...

...

What are your thoughts?

A) Don't come here then.
B) So?
C) Do you care?

 

[Ghost2211]

I'm sorry if there was another discussion about it, I didn't see it.

I don't think it's arrogant to say what I said. Please elaborate.

If you can't empathize you can't understand.

 

[Singapope]

A) Don't come here then.
B) So?
C) Do you care?

A) To be uncomfortable doesn't mean you should just give up and leave. If I see something wrong with the world I would like at least to try to challenge it.
B) It's a bad counterargument which I've seen reported before, so I answered it preemptively. What's the problem?
C) I do care about discussion on this issue. What you posted was not discussion.

If you can't empathize you can't understand.

Help me empathize then. I certainly would like to understand the frame of mind that lets you disregard the feelings of something you yourself created. To me it just seems monstrously selfish.

 

[Deleted member 19654]

I see a lot of parents in this forum and it honestly makes me uncomfortable.

I think it's justified to CTB even if it hurts your other loved ones, because you are not responsible for them or their feelings. You don't owe to your parents, your friends or even your spouse, they all have made conscious decisions to become a part of your life with all that it entails.

But if you have kids and want to kill yourself, I think that's simply not ethical. As if it wasn't enough to have brought them into a world where suffering is so commonplace, now you want to scar them forever by committing suicide. They had no say in this matter, you brought them here out of your own volition and you're 100% responsible for what happens to them.

And I don't care about the counterargument that having a depressed parent is worse than no parent at all. People should think about this before deciding to have children. The only correct course of action in this case is to learn to fake it and endure the rest of your life while trying to minimize the damage.

What are your thoughts?

It is possible for parents to become depressed after they've had kids. You can't exactly predict whether you'll be affected by depression or other mental health disorders.

 

[Anonymoussn]

I do agree that a parent has a responsibility to do right by their children. And I think that responsibility includes living and being around for them wherever possible.

But I also think each situation is different. What if you have a debilitating illness and have tried and tried to make it work, but are in constant pain and feel you can no longer go on?

Basically, I don't think parents should take the decision lightly, but you can't know how much they are suffering, and how much they feel that death is the only option.

 

[Ghost2211]

Help me empathize then. I certainly would like to understand the frame of mind that lets you disregard the feelings of something you yourself created. To me it just seems monstrously selfish.

Do you really feel you're capable of empathy when you've already made up your mind, and you make statements like that which are intended to be inflammatory?

 

[Life_and_Death]

Ever heard of postpartum depression?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I think that sometimes extreme suffering combined with extreme limitations can override all ethical considerations.

I think it's also natural to try to come up with justifications to soothe the conscience, which is also experiencing extreme suffering as a result.

 

[checkouttime]

Why have we constantly got threads attacking people with children etc??? What about if it makes you uncomfortable, perhaps you could IGNORE posts about this. It quite simple to do you just back page and forget about the thread.

Your on a suicide forum perhaps people don't like that fact about you, how would you like that??

i don't have kids, i don't even want them, never have. (so what if i was uncomfortable, with the people being uncomfortable, about people with kids.should i post thread after thread about it)

Think it make a bit of sense now!

 

[Ready2GoNow]

I never thought about it. I guess I somewhat agree in the case of parents whose children are still minors. But life isn't always black and white, who am I to say they must continue to suffer here if they don't want to

 

[Life_and_Death]

It quite simple to do you just back page and forget about the thread.

There's also the ignore button at the top of the thread if you really don't want to see it.

 

[checkouttime]

There's also the ignore button at the top of the thread if you really don't want to see it.

I feel like its something that is said, as people know EXACTLY how much it will effect a person with kids. To get a reaction, cause pain. I don't see any other purpose.

Like i said i REALLY DO NOT have kids, why does it bother me? I think i see it as a bullying comment!

So maybe I'm the wrong one, maybe OP is right, If people want to post these things though ,i too will make my feelings known.

 

[Ghost2211]

These posts are typically intended to stir up trouble. Why else would someone make a "what's wrong with you!?" post.

 

[checkouttime]

These posts are typically intended to stir up trouble. Why else would someone make a "what's wrong with you!?" post.

,
I'm going to be totally honest,I think exactly the same and see no other reason. I also don't care what reason someone gives, i don't believe it apart from to make trouble and bully people!

 

[Dead beat dad]

I see a lot of parents in this forum and it honestly makes me uncomfortable.

I think it's justified to CTB even if it hurts your other loved ones, because you are not responsible for them or their feelings. You don't owe to your parents, your friends or even your spouse, they all have made conscious decisions to become a part of your life with all that it entails.

But if you have kids and want to kill yourself, I think that's simply not ethical. As if it wasn't enough to have brought them into a world where suffering is so commonplace, now you want to scar them forever by committing suicide. They had no say in this matter, you brought them here out of your own volition and you're 100% responsible for what happens to them.

And I don't care about the counterargument that having a depressed parent is worse than no parent at all. People should think about this before deciding to have children. The only correct course of action in this case is to learn to fake it and endure the rest of your life while trying to minimize the damage.

What are your thoughts?

Fake it till you make it...?
Fake it till you break it...?

Everyone is in a different boat, if folks having kids and being suicidal makes you uncomfortable how do you feel about people that have kids but abuse them, or others or the planet and humanity in general?

The world is a terrible place, on this we probably agree, my childhood was a pile of rancid shit compared to some and heaven on earth compared to others, I'm taking the decision that I'll try and Duke it out with the demons for as long as I can to make the world a better place for my kid and anyone else's and the kids of fucking gorillas and whales and gophers and all the other life on this planet that need kindness.

But actually in the infinity of time and space what we do doesn't matter so I'm going to go and shoot heroin in to kids and then run for office because you know, yolo...

Just be kind people, walk a mile in their shoes, then walk back again, give them back their shoes...

Peace friend

DBD

DBD

 

[Singapope]

It is possible for parents to become depressed after they've had kids. You can't exactly predict whether you'll be affected by depression or other mental health disorders.

This does not change anything. It's something that should be accounted for when committing to the decision of having a child. That's one of the reasons why it's such a massive responsibility. You are literally gambling the whole existence of another human being, and with the stakes being so high the risk-benefit judgment should lean heavily towards caution. Yet most people don't give this a single thought, hence all the suffering we see.

Do you really feel you're capable of empathy when you've already made up your mind, and you make statements like that which are intended to be inflammatory?

Rather than me being inflammatory it seems that a lot of people on this thread are extremely defensive. I don't claim to be the single source of truth but it's fair to start a discussion on the ethics of such an act. If my wording suggested otherwise I apologize.

 

[Life_and_Death]

I'm going to be totally honest,I think exactly the same and see no other reason. I also don't care what reason someone gives, i don't believe it apart from to make trouble and bully people!

im kinda wondering if this isnt a prolifer.....i mean someone who is suicidal would understand the weight of the boulders hauling you down kids or no kids.
plus this...." And I don't care about the counterargument that having a depressed parent is worse than no parent at all. People should think about this before deciding to have children. The only correct course of action in this case is to learn to fake it and endure the rest of your life while trying to minimize the damage. " they clearly have no interest in even listening to any counterargument which kinda makes me wonder why they even made this thread. clearly if not to start a discussion then it kinda only leaves one option.

 

[Singapope]

Ever heard of postpartum depression?

That is again not a justification for anything. Postpartum depression is a well-known issue which I'm sure most people are aware of before deciding to commit to the massive decision of bringing a person into this world. If they aren't, they certainly should be, because ignorance is hardly an excuse.

 

[Life sucks]

I'm an antinatalist and I'm pro-choice. Its all situational and I think its unfair to put all parents under the same label. A parent is a human that feels and have pain, if we stop some people of ending their own suffering and force them to continue suffering then thats the same as being prolife. The natalist system is already using parents and forcing them to continue suffering and its logical to oppose that. What people misunderstand about antinatalism is thinking its about hatred while its not, its to show how this world is wrong and bringing new people is negative. What happened in the past happened already but whats important is the future. If you see how this problem affects both parents and children, its logical to stop reproduction to avoid gambling with these kinds of situations that harm everyone.

I support parents having their peaceful exit. Someone getting pressured or controlled by society, state, etc doesn't mean they can't feel pain and suffering.

 

[Life_and_Death]

also might i add what they said about who has the right to die " Since we were all coerced into life, the only correct answer is everyone. Forcing someone to be alive is equivalent to giving someone an incredibly cumbersome gift that they never asked for and then not allowing them to refuse it. " they are being a bit hypocritical here by now saying if you have kids you arent allowed to after saying EVERYONE

 

[GreenTree]

Singapore your wrong. When people plan children they dont know unbearable mental illness are going to happen. It's bad luck getting a mental illness.

 

[Singapope]

I think that sometimes extreme suffering combined with extreme limitations can override all ethical considerations.

I think it's also natural to try to come up with justifications to soothe the conscience, which is also experiencing extreme suffering as a result.

I agree that this is the case. In an ideal world though we would all learn to not hurt each other before helping ourselves. Most people in this thread don't seem to agree though.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

This does not change anything. It's something that should be accounted for when committing to the decision of having a child. That's one of the reasons why it's such a massive responsibility. You are literally gambling the whole existence of another human being, and with the stakes being so high the risk-benefit judgment should lean heavily towards caution. Yet most people don't give this a single thought, hence all the suffering we see.


Rather than me being inflammatory it seems that a lot of people on this thread are extremely defensive. I don't claim to be the single source of truth but it's fair to start a discussion on the ethics of such an act. If my wording suggested otherwise I apologize.

So basically your mind was already made up when you posted.

And folks are defensive because you started off with blaming and shaming. The OP was inflammatory. It was not presented as a discussion with the exception of the question at the end, and since then you're just doubling down on your judgmental stance, even called someone monstrous. You don't seem to want to listen, just to sit in a seat of judgment and be Right.

Start a flame thread and there will be flames. If you feel burnt or inflamed by the responses, well, you set the fire and have kept fanning the flames.

I wonder how long it will take for this thread to be locked. I hope it's soon.

 

[checkouttime]

I agree that this is the case. In an ideal world though we would all learn to not hurt each other before helping ourselves. Most people in this thread don't seem to agree though.

says the person who singled out a group of people with a hurtful comment?

perhaps you should take some of your own advice, before giving it to others

 

[Singapope]

These posts are typically intended to stir up trouble. Why else would someone make a "what's wrong with you!?" post.

The aim of this post is to possibly change some minds, including mine.

they are being a bit hypocritical here by now saying if you have kids you arent allowed to after saying EVERYONE

I was actually thinking about that same question when I made this thread. This is the one case where I would NOT justify suicide. It is simply not ethical to bring a person into the world only to hurt them further. It seems excessively cruel.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I agree that this is the case. In an ideal world though we would all learn to not hurt each other before helping ourselves. Most people in this thread don't seem to agree though.

You twisted the intention of my words to empower your stance. That demonstrates weakness.

 

[Life_and_Death]

I was actually thinking about that same question when I made this thread. This is the one case where I would NOT justify suicide. It is simply not ethical to bring a person into the world only to hurt them further. It seems excessively cruel.

im not going to disagree but i will say that no one can see the future. how the hell are you suppose to know things are going to get that bad for you? in which case your argument just became why no one should ever have kids