The ethics of CTB while having kids

[Deleted member 19654]

No way to know that with certainty. But you know.......let's look honestly and objectively at parenting. I saw this woman the other day at the post office, for example, who just yelled at her child and grabbed him violently by the arm, yanking him up, because he was sitting on the floor. I could hardly take it. I swear I almost intervened. THAT woman? I do not feel any guilt for saying that she had no fucking idea what she was doing when she chose to have a child.

Exactly, there's no way to know with certainty so we can't accuse every single parent here of not making a rational decision when it comes to having kids. Of course there are a lot of shitty parents in the world who shouldn't be parents nor do they deserve to be, like with the example you just gave. That's an example of someone who probably didn't make a rational decision.

 

[Bea]

Yes, so they then have something to talk to their psychiatrists about.

Well, they're gonna be talking to some damn psychiatrists, anyway, aren't they?

 

[fuzattojuliana]

I simply have a strong opinion about this. I see something I think is very wrong, and it makes me have an emotional reaction. However I am trying to answer as much as possible and I am hoping to hear some good counterarguments. I would like to have my mind changed about this, for my peace of mind at the very least.

My life is more shit because my father committed suicide leaving me and my brother with a narcissistic woman. So if you have kids and care with they, don't do that.

 

[inflammed123]

I see a lot of parents in this forum and it honestly makes me uncomfortable.

I think it's justified to CTB even if it hurts your other loved ones, because you are not responsible for them or their feelings. You don't owe to your parents, your friends or even your spouse, they all have made conscious decisions to become a part of your life with all that it entails.

But if you have kids and want to kill yourself, I think that's simply not ethical. As if it wasn't enough to have brought them into a world where suffering is so commonplace, now you want to scar them forever by committing suicide. They had no say in this matter, you brought them here out of your own volition and you're 100% responsible for what happens to them.

And I don't care about the counterargument that having a depressed parent is worse than no parent at all. People should think about this before deciding to have children. The only correct course of action in this case is to learn to fake it and endure the rest of your life while trying to minimize the damage.

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are that I agree with your opinion. Nonetheless, you should keep it to yourself. Perhaps the children would be better without the parent, maybe not. Perhaps the parent has a million dollar life insurance policy and is terminally ill. The point is, if you feel uncomfortable, who cares (you obviously don't mind making people in this position feel bad/uncomfortable)

 

[TheQ22]

Well, they're gonna be talking to some damn psychiatrists, anyway, aren't they?

Depends on if you jump in front of a train or your death appears natural. It also depends on how old they are.

 

[fuzattojuliana]

I simply have a strong opinion about this. I see something I think is very wrong, and it makes me have an emotional reaction. However I am trying to answer as much as possible and I am hoping to hear some good counterarguments. I would like to have my mind changed about this, for my peace of mind at the very least.

My life is more shit because my father committed suicide leaving me and my brother with a narcissistic woman. So if you have kids and care with they, don't do that.

 

[Bea]

Exactly, there's no way to know with certainty so we can't accuse every single parent here of not making a rational decision when it comes to having kids. Of course there are a lot of shitty parents in the world who shouldn't be parents nor do they deserve to be, like with the example you just gave. That's an example of someone who probably didn't make a rational decision.

I'm not accusing "every single parent" here of anything. Both my parents killed themselves, and I have no doubt they loved me. They weren't great parents, but I know they loved me. It took me decades to finally realize that it was not my fault, however. This is a discussion worth having.

 

[TheQ22]

My thoughts are that I agree with your opinion. Nonetheless, you should keep it to yourself. Perhaps the children would be better without the parent, maybe not. Perhaps the parent has a million dollar life insurance policy and is terminally ill. The point is, if you feel uncomfortable, who cares (you obviously don't mind making people in this position feel bad/uncomfortable)

Perhaps the children will be better off with the other parent, perhaps they will be financially better off as you say. Etc

 

[Singapope]

Committing suicide in a setting where the child will find you afterwards would definitely be a horrible thing, but perhaps if a suicidal parent can find a way for the child to be taken care of properly by someone else (friend or family member) that is more capable of giving them a good life, then perhaps that would alleviate some of the problems it might cause. It would just take careful planning to ensure that CTB impacts the child(ren) as little as possible, which might relieve the parent from the burden of this ethical problem.

Thanks for your post first of all. I don't disagree that in that circumstance, there might be different considerations about the best harm reduction strategy. I think it's possible that your solution might be better than what I was suggesting, given that they really are able to find the right people and ensure the children will be taken care of. I think that was my mistake in my original post. However I should have probably started with saying that having a "risky" child in the first place is the true capital sin, and CTB is just sealing the deal. If you don't commit to staying alive and doing the absolute best you can before having a child, then you already are acting cruelly and unethically in my opinion. The scenario where you need to find harm reduction strategies should almost never happen.

 

[checkouttime]

Sure, if they are old enough and you're about to DO IT???? Hell, yes. What, you think just doing it with no explanation or conversation ~ if your children are old enough for that ~ is a better choice?

I wouldn't of thought you could ever be old enough for that type of conversation, just my opinion though. I could understand in a terminal illness case it being discussed, although i suppose thats a bit contradictory saying that would be ok but not for another circumstance.

I mean my dad decided to refuse medical help, he didn't discuss it with us he just refused help whilst in hospital while we were all there. he had Ms and had had enough, fair enough he had suffered alot, it was his decision.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I've made the case that the benefit of killing yourself does not outweigh the damage done in that circumstance.

This is much to vague as a general rule.
It all depends on individual cases. And anyway, how would anyone be able to objectively calculate the ratio between the benefits and negative consequences of ctb'ing? It's impossible. It's based on flawed utilitarian theory from the 19th century

 

[Deleted member 19654]

I'm not accusing "every single parent" here of anything. Both my parents killed themselves, and I have no doubt they loved me. They weren't great parents, but I know they loved me. It took me decades to finally realize that it was not my fault, however. This is a discussion worth having.

I know you weren't accusing every single parent here, don't worry. It was OP who did that in the quote I originally replied to. We definitely can't deny that having parents with depression will impact upon your own mental health in some way.

 

[checkouttime]

It could be a conversation on the topic, in general, and how someone could end up feeling that taking their life was the only remaining option. At least, educate your children. Again, if they are old enough to handle the topic.
That said, if a person is horrified by the idea of DISCUSSING suicide with their children but not horrified with the idea of DOING IT to their children? That is some screwy logic, in my humble opinion.

I don't think i would personally want to 'educate' my children about suicide..... I never got education about it when i was growing up!!

 

[Sinkinshyp]

everyone is entitled to their opinions. I'm going to reply but there is much more to explain.
My 25 yr old son is dead. He died in a car accident almost 3 years ago. Main reason I want to CTB. I believe in my afterlife I will be reunited with him. I CAN"T live without my kids. I have just existed since he died. My soon to be 20 yr old ran from home at 18 to my ex in laws. He has a ton of grief over his brother and loosing his mother as he knew her that day. I broke when J died. I pay younger sons cell phone bill yet he has a job. I pay his cell bill to show him I NEED and WANT communication. I text him and he never replies. I call he wont answer either at work, sleeping or busy with his friends. The damage I caused to our relationship when J died has me feeling like a really shitty parent that I was not strong enough. I feel horribly guilty for not being able to be the mom I was prior to J's accident. I have lived for the last almost 3 years since J died for my younger son. I beg him to call me he doesn't. I lost everything that meant anything to me MY kids, my life, heart and soul. I cannot begin to explain how painful it is to wake up and another day without my kids. My younger son is very intelligent and an introvert. I tried to tell him we both lost J, that we need to heal together. I offered to be there ANYTIME he was ready to talk. Sadly, my mental state cashed and he spent a lot of time telling me Ma go to bed- because doc over medicated me to get me through the first year. I have caused irreversible damage to our relationship. I have no reason to continue on without my sons. So I believe in my afterlife I will be with my son.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

We are talking about children and the horrendous trauma that a parent's suicide causes. How does it seem even remotely appropriate to "debate"?

If not debate, then what? Discuss? Converse? It's a difficult topic but the OP started it.

 

[checkouttime]

That said, if a person is horrified by the idea of DISCUSSING suicide with their children but not horrified with the idea of DOING IT to their children? That is some screwy logic, in my humble opinion.

So didn't you say your parent committed suicide?do you think this about your own parents?? Or did your parents 'educate' you on the subject?

 

[Bea]

Depends on if you jump in front of a train or your death appears natural. It also depends on how old they are.

They will likely be talking to a psychiatrist regardless of age. But, sure, there are ways to make suicide appear like a natural death. It's hard, though.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

but if I can change only one mind

Why are you looking to change people's minds? So you are assuming that you're already in the right.

 

[Bea]

If not debate, then what? Discuss? Converse? It's a difficult topic but the OP started it.

Yes, discuss. Just share, and damn, can we be more vulnerable here? Debate is NOT vulnerable. There is a difference between sharing feelings and experiences and just trying to one-up someone. God, this thread is breaking my heart.

Why are you looking to change people's minds? So you are assuming that you're already in the right.

That seems to be your interpretation: that he wants to be "in the right". Sounds to me like he would like to save a child or two from serious trauma, if possible.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

.I think most people simply don't think enough about the gravity of the act of bringing another human into the world. How many parents here even thought about doing the kind of risk assessment that I am suggesting? How many had absolutely no history of depression? How many seriously asked themselves if they were ready for the truly bad times, and that they would not give up

I agree with this though.

But that doesn't invalidate or render immoral the ctb, or just the suicidal ideation, of a parent.

 

[Bea]

I do agree that a parent has a responsibility to do right by their children. And I think that responsibility includes living and being around for them wherever possible.

But I also think each situation is different. What if you have a debilitating illness and have tried and tried to make it work, but are in constant pain and feel you can no longer go on?

Basically, I don't think parents should take the decision lightly, but you can't know how much they are suffering, and how much they feel that death is the only option.

In that situation, I would hope that they would either inform their children ~ if they are old enough to understand the conversation ~ or ensure that someone will be guiding them through this. Because it WILL be traumatic.

I agree with this though.

But that doesn't invalidate or render immoral the ctb, or just the suicidal ideation, of a parent.

Being suicidal is not immoral, that's for sure.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Sounds to me like he would like to save a child or two from serious trauma, if possible

But at what cost? Doesn't that depend on the specific circumstances of the parent(s)?
I read that you lost your parents to suicide, and I can't even imagine the effect it had on you, but each circumstance if different.

This is much too complex a topic to just make sweeping rules or generalizations which apply to everyone, in my opinion.

There is a difference between sharing feelings and experiences and just trying to one-up someone

Yes, I agree. But a topic like this is bound to generate debate, you won't be able to avoid it. It's a deep ethical issue, which touches on people's deeply held convictions and feelings about existence.

Maybe it would have been better if the thread had never been started.

 

[Bea]

So didn't you say your parent committed suicide?do you think this about your own parents?? Or did your parents 'educate' you on the subject?

No, they did not educate me on the subject, although Mother always used to walk around the house, moaning, "I wish I could just lay down, go to sleep, and never wake up." it was a common refrain. They definitely did not educate me or try to talk with me openly. Looking back, I believe it would have helped, although I recognize that might be hard for some people to believe.
Daddy came over and told me that he had liver cancer ~ I think he was trying to prepare me for his suicide. He shot himself the next day.

But at what cost? Doesn't that depend on the specific circumstances of the parent(s)?
I read that you lost your parents to suicide, and I can't even imagine the effect it had on you, but each circumstance if different.

This is much too complex a topic to just make sweeping rules or generalizations which apply to everyone, in my opinion.


Yes, I agree. But a topic like this is bound to generate debate, you won't be able to avoid it. It's a deep ethical issue, which touches on people's deeply held convictions and feelings about existence.

Maybe it would have been better if the thread had never been started.

No, we can handle this thread. it's a good discussion. I just don't like the "debate" aspect of it. but, that's just me. i hate "debate", anyway. i mean, the best debators are usually buttheads. Ted Cruz, as a random example, although I recognize we are not talking politics here. But being a good "debater" is a skill of its own and rarely involves humility or vulnerability.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

No, they did not educate me on the subject, although Mother always used to walk around the house, moaning, "I wish I could just lay down, go to sleep, and never wake up." it was a common refrain. They definitely did not educate me or try to talk with me openly. Looking back, I believe it would have helped, although I recognize that might be hard for some people to believe.
Daddy came over and told me that he had liver cancer ~ I think he was trying to prepare me for his suicide. He shot himself the next day.

So sad to hear that.
Were you still a child when all this happened?

 

[Ghost2211]

That is a childish response. This is an important topic.

If it was an important topic to OP it should have presented it in an open minded respectful way. The first post was closed minded, and a personal attack on parents in the group. It was lacking empathy, compassion, and was intended to hit below the belt. I gave a pretty tame response considering I am a parent.

 

[Shero]

If it was an important topic to OP it should have presented it in an open minded respectful way. The first post was closed minded, and a personal attack on parents in the group. It was lacking empathy, compassion, and was intended to hit below the belt. I gave a pretty tame response considering I am a parent.

You may have perceived it that way, but the fact is that the maker of the thread has remained respectful despite strong views about a sensitive topic.
What one could definitely not say about most of the answers on page 1 and 2.
The person was even accused of being a pro-lifer and creating a flame thread.

I agree, however, that it is a flame thread, the only difference being that the person has made a generalised statement on a controversial issue and he being the target of the flaming. He did not attack any parent directly, and even in the next few pages it was discussed that the subject is very nuanced. Like i said, the only flame here was directed at him.
On the pro-lifer accusations, if you throw accusations just because you are very emotional, you should not participate in this thread and "discuss" your already formed opinions somewhere else.


He has not broken any rules, if you are preaching to be pro-choice, you shouldn't force this topic to be closed.

 

[Nature_is_God]

"The ethics of CTB while having kids", 100+ comments already. Yeah, it's another one of those threads.

 

[Ghost2211]

You may have perceived it that way, but the fact is that the maker of the thread has remained respectful despite strong views about a sensitive topic.
What one could definitely not say about most of the answers on page 1 and 2.
The person was even accused of being a pro-lifer and creating a flame thread.

I agree, however, that it is a flame thread, the only difference being that the person has made a generalised statement on a controversial issue andhe being the target of the flaming. He did not attack any parent directly, and even in the next few pages it was discussed that the subject is very nuanced. Like i said, the only flame here was directed at him.
On the pro-lifer accusations, if you throw accusations just because you are very emotional, you should not participate in this thread and "discuss" your already formed opinions somewhere else.


He has not broken any rules, if you are preaching to be pro-choice, you shouldn't force this topic to be closed.

OP said they do not care about the counter argument, as well as called parents considering suicide monstrous. We clearly have different opinions of what is considered Respectful .

 

[Sinkinshyp]

I see a lot of parents in this forum and it honestly makes me uncomfortable.

I think it's justified to CTB even if it hurts your other loved ones, because you are not responsible for them or their feelings. You don't owe to your parents, your friends or even your spouse, they all have made conscious decisions to become a part of your life with all that it entails.

But if you have kids and want to kill yourself, I think that's simply not ethical. As if it wasn't enough to have brought them into a world where suffering is so commonplace, now you want to scar them forever by committing suicide. They had no say in this matter, you brought them here out of your own volition and you're 100% responsible for what happens to them.

And I don't care about the counterargument that having a depressed parent is worse than no parent at all. People should think about this before deciding to have children. The only correct course of action in this case is to learn to fake it and endure the rest of your life while trying to minimize the damage.

What are your thoughts?

EDIT: after some discussion I have partially changed my mind about what I said. I think there might be different courses of action other than "faking it", like the one suggested by Lost in a Dream here. It is possible that for some of you CTB might be the least harmful solution, given that you provide some means for your kids to cope.

However the crux of the issue is that people should think about having children in the first place. Is it so unreasonable to ask that everyone make a serious commitment to life before having a child? I know issues can arise later, but all the reasonably foreseeable risks should be tallied up when making such a grave decision.

This could be turned around also and how can you CTB and leave a loving parent grieving for you.

I can tell you- my son died in a car accident at 25 almost 3 yrs ago. In the 3 years I have hung in here I have not had 1 second without pain, sorrow, loneliness, just yearning to hear I love you Ma. Wishing it's been a bad nightmare or I'm on life support again and will wake up. I am in hell and know there isn't one beyond this horrible existence. Should my son still be alive I would have a desire to continue to live and not even think about CTB. I tried to CTB as a teenager a couple of times due to being born into hell. I had my son at 20 and totally devoted myself to him. I had 25 years 4 months and 2 days of pure love, happiness and glad I failed my attempts as a teen. 8 1/2 yrs later I had my 2nd son. If he were to try to have a relationship with me I would hang in here. I have always had some level of depression and anxiety. I was all my older son had and both my kids gave me a reason to wake up and work hard to make our life comfortable. Yes the depression and anxiety prevented me from having/doing much but I had a REASON to live- my kids. When I motivate myself to do something - my beads or taking my puppy to the grocery store I still cannot stop hurting and wanting my son. Being busy doesn't stop the non stop thoughts and yearning for my son. The redbox is a trigger as J & I would always pick out movies. Going through the grocery store triggers me - so many things my kids liked that I used to get them and now can't. I had to move 40 minutes north of where we lived because I just couldn't drive past places without being triggered.

I wake up and instantly filled with pain and sorrow. Knowing my son is not at work and he is never coming home. I spend 24/7 in my bedroom with room darkening curtains. 1 it helps with my ac and 2 I just dont care to have light. Most days I'm just a hysterical mess. I listen to his facebook videos over and over and over just to hear his voice. It's very hard to look at his picture-when I do it sends me into hysterics. Nighttime- I touch his urn and say good night buddy I love you. I would give anything to hear I love you Ma back. I did hear him once call me he said Ma right out loud no one around. It was interesting. I law down in bed after taking my many meds to help me sleep. I can't help but to think about... did my son suffer? did he want his mom and I failed him by not being there? There is a newspaper article with a picture of the accident and a white sheet on his driver side. I wish I never saw it because I have horrible visions. The woman who killed him by turning left into him has refused ANY contact. She was the last person to see my son alive. Did she even check on him? did anyone provide him any comfort? The police said he was gone when they got there. The med examiner says "he didn't know what hit him, he went that fast" but that totally broken mom in me wonders did he live for a short time, alone in his car with no one providing him comfort or caring words. I've been beyond over medicated and cannot function.

So this goes both ways- how can parents ctb? and how can young kids with loving parents ctb? My description of my new forced existence without my son isn't even close to the hell I am living. I've explained it very gently. We aren't to question why anyone wants to ctb. All we can do is provide support in whatever way they want need. And hope they find some happiness and peace whether it be finding a way to live or by CTB.... It isn't for us to judge or questions others reasons.

 

[Shero]

OP said they do not care about the counter argument, as well as called parents considering suicide monstrous. We clearly have different opinions of what is considered Respectful .

It's only hypothesy, but from what i understood, the "not caring" was specifically for the point of parents being depressed and not of hearing the opinion of other people. Why would you create a thread that should incentivise discussion if you don't want to hear any points?

And I don't care about the counterargument that having a depressed parent is worse than no parent at all. People should think about this before deciding to have children. The only correct course of action in this case is to learn to fake it and endure the rest of your life while trying to minimize the damage.

When did he call parents monstrous? He quoted you and answered you with finding the idea monstrously selfish.

Help me empathize then. I certainly would like to understand the frame of mind that lets you disregard the feelings of something you yourself created. To me it just seems monstrously selfish.

Don't get me wrong, I understand both sides, but accusing people of things they did not say is not correct.