The ethics of CTB while having kids

[Singapope]

And folks are defensive because you started off with blaming and shaming. The OP was inflammatory. It was not presented as a discussion with the exception of the question at the end, and since then you're just doubling down on your judgmental stance, even called someone monstrous. You don't seem to want to listen, just to sit in a seat of judgment and be Right.

I simply have a strong opinion about this. I see something I think is very wrong, and it makes me have an emotional reaction. However I am trying to answer as much as possible and I am hoping to hear some good counterarguments. I would like to have my mind changed about this, for my peace of mind at the very least.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I simply have a strong opinion about this. I see something I think is very wrong, and it makes me have an emotional reaction. However I am trying to answer as much as possible and I am hoping to hear some good counterarguments. I would like to have my mind changed about this, for my peace of mind at the very least.

I gave you an excellent counterargument to your reasoning and you tried to use it as a weapon against others. Not impressed right now. Own your own stuff, nothing is *making* you react so that you lash out against others.

 

[Singapope]

You twisted the intention of my words to empower your stance. That demonstrates weakness.

Was the point of your post not that people who suffer don't necessarily make the correct ethical decision, and come up with justifications for their actions to feel better? I agree with that and I said as much.

 

[Worndown]

I know from personal observation that suicide had a terrible effect on a child. Please do not let them see or find you!
That said, what is a reasonable resolution? Living for 15 to 20 more years. If a problem cannot be resolved or a suitable work around found, what then? Ethics is probably not the right thing to quote. Some issues have no good solution, only bad and worse.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Was the point of your post not that people who suffer don't necessarily make the correct ethical decision, and come up with justifications for their actions to feel better? I agree with that and I said as much.

I said that extreme suffering can override all ethical considerations. And that it is natural to try to justify the action because they still have a conscience. For example, when someone is poor and in a famine, they may override their ethic to not steal, and justify it by saying it's to save their family, but it still feels like shit to suffer to the point that the suffering is greater than their ethics.

I made that argument, especially about justification, from a place of wisdom and compassion.

 

[TheQ22]

Everyone dies. When someone dies it causes grief, particularly to the children of that person.

Therefore, using OPs logic, no one should ever have children since they know in advance that one day they will die, and that will cause their child pain.

The End

 

[Deleted member 19654]

You're essentially suggesting that no one should have kids. You cannot predict when, how or if mental illness will affect you. If parents should consider the possibility of depression then does that mean they should decide to not have kids? If there's a chance someone could develop a mental health disorder, which applies to everybody, then they shouldn't bother with kids at all?

 

[Ghost2211]

The aim of this post is to possibly change some minds, including mine.

You've given no indication that you have any room in your heart for the viewpoints or pain of others. The only minds you hoped to change are those of others. I won't bother to defend my position. The fact that you refer to my choices as monstrous shows how ignorant you are about the members of this community.

 

[Singapope]

im not going to disagree but i will say that no one can see the future. how the hell are you suppose to know things are going to get that bad for you? in which case your argument just became why no one should ever have kids

Of course we cannot know the future but for every decision that involves risk, people should consider all the known factors. Risk analysis is not just a thing for big brain AI but something we do every day, weighing the decisions we do. When deciding to have a child, the stakes are so high that you probably should feel extremely comfortable in your ability to give it the best shot you can. That includes being confident that your resolve to be alive won't fail you at some point. I don't believe for a second that everyone here who has a child made a completely rational decision when deciding to have it.

I said that extreme suffering can override all ethical considerations. And that it is natural to try to justify the action because they still have a conscience. For example, when someone is poor and in a famine, they may override their ethic to not steal, and justify it by saying it's to save their family, but it still feels like shit to suffer to the point that the suffering is greater than their ethics.

Ok I'm sorry that I misunderstood you. I completely disagree with this and I think you constructed a false equivalence. Stealing during a famine is obviously not compared to having a kid when not completely sure you won't kill yourself at some point. It's ludicrous to say the ethical considerations are the same. For one, the damage caused by stealing is outweighed by the benefit of keeping people alive. It's logical and almost everyone would agree with this. On the other hand, I've made the case that the benefit of killing yourself does not outweigh the damage done in that circumstance.

 

[Deleted member 19654]

I don't believe for a second that everyone here who has a child made a completely rational decision when deciding to have it.

Wow.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

This has definitely been brought up in other threads like this, but what if the kids in question are fully grown and independent adults themselves? It might not make the pain any less, but at least these kids would hopefully be able to handle it better. Grown children would also hopefully be more likely to understand why their parent might feel the need to ctb.

Also (I'm mostly joking but) consider the kids who hate their parents so much, they wish their parents would ctb or at least would be grateful if it happened. I know for a fact there's definitely enough people on this site who might feel that way. What then?

 

[Singapope]

Some issues have no good solution, only bad and worse.

Yes, and the worse solution in this case is to kill yourself rather than staying alive for their sake. That is my point.

Everyone dies. When someone dies it causes grief, particularly to the children of that person.

Therefore, using OPs logic, no one should ever have children since they know in advance that one day they will die, and that will cause their child pain.

Quite the strawman you've built there. Grief from a natural death is not even slightly comparable to the trauma of a parent killing themselves.

 

[checkouttime]

I simply have a strong opinion about this. I see something I think is very wrong, and it makes me have an emotional reaction. However I am trying to answer as much as possible and I am hoping to hear some good counterarguments. I would like to have my mind changed about this, for my peace of mind at the very least.

can you not think for yourself?
you came to the conclusion you have about people with children yourself?
or did someone change your mind so you thought that aswell?

 

[Singapope]

You're essentially suggesting that no one should have kids. You cannot predict when, how or if mental illness will affect you. If parents should consider the possibility of depression then does that mean they should decide to not have kids? If there's a chance someone could develop a mental health disorder, which applies to everybody, then they shouldn't bother with kids at all?

As I said in a previous post, a lot of known factors should go into the decision of having a child. A history of previous mental illness would be one, for example. But even that is not enough. What really should be the deciding factor is your resolution to stay alive through it all, no matter how bad. Is that really so much to ask of a parent?

This has definitely been brought up in other threads like this, but what if the kids in question are fully grown and independent adults themselves? It might not make the pain any less, but at least these kids would hopefully be able to handle it better. Grown children would also hopefully be more likely to understand why their parent might feel the need to ctb.

Well I guess in that case it is a bit different. It's probably more acceptable, as long as you make sure to minimize the impact it would have on them. I was mostly thinking of children.

 

[DyingAlf]

First you say this....

And I don't care about the counterargument

Then you say this....

I am hoping to hear some good counterarguments

& along with all the other bs you've said you've made it extremely clear that the ONLY things you're interested in hearing is if anyone agrees with your offensive, inflammatory, pro-life, stance.

oh & I'm case you're wondering....no I don't have kids.

 

[Singapope]

can you not think for yourself?
you came to the conclusion you have about people with children yourself?
or did someone change your mind so you thought that aswell?

I don't understand what you're asking. I came to my own conclusions about this matter.

First you say this....
Then you say this....
& along with all the other bs you've said you've made it extremely clear that the ONLY things you're interested in hearing is if anyone agrees with your offensive, inflammatory, pro-life, stance.

I do not care (it means it doesn't persuade me) for that particular argument. I am willing to hear new ones and engage with them. I also don't care for your weird in-group signaling as if somehow I was less suicidal than you because I'm saying something you don't like. I am not "pro-life".

 

[Deleted member 19654]

It's easy to think you'll be strong enough mentally to overcome whatever life throws at you when you're in a position with a good job, house, support system etc. But fast forward a little, what happens if you lose it all unexpectedly. You don't realise how hard depression hits you till it happens.

 

[checkouttime]

As I said in a previous post, a lot of known factors should go into the decision of having a child. A history of previous mental illness would be one, for example. But even that is not enough. What really should be the deciding factor is your resolution to stay alive through it all, no matter how bad. Is that really so much to ask of a parent?


Well I guess in that case it is a bit different. It's probably more acceptable, as long as you make sure to minimize the impact it would have on them. I was mostly thinking of children.

I bet your parents would be proud of the fact, you have come on a suicide forum and questioned people you know nothing about and how they live their lives.

You talk about ethics, yet you clearly have none yourself, or you wouldn't be saying negative things to vulnerable people in circumstances you know nothing about.

EDIT I never said i had ethics, I fight fire with fire

 

[DyingAlf]

Since we were all coerced into life, the only correct answer is everyone. Forcing someone to be alive is equivalent to giving someone an incredibly cumbersome gift that they never asked for and then not allowing them to refuse it.

YOU, yourself, answered "who has the right to die?" very recently on another post!
But now you're saying that you stated an incorrect answer because actually you meant that it's "everyone except those who have children"!?!?

 

[checkouttime]

I don't understand what you're asking. I came to my own conclusions about this matter.

So why were you asking for people to change your mind on this subject, if you have come to your own conclusions on the matter??

So what our saying is you have your own conclusions on the matter........but now, you want other people to influence what you think?

So how do you make your own conclusions ? you need other people, but then they aren't your conclusions are they?

 

[Deleted member 19654]

I think it's time for this thread to be locked

 

[checkouttime]

I think it's time for this thread to be locked

definitely for my benefit lol

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Quite the strawman you've built there. Grief from a natural death is not even slightly comparable to the trauma of a parent killing themselves

That wasn't really a straw man. You yourself said people should plan for the possibility of mental health issues after the child is born. Therefore, they should plan for an unplanned death, or anything else that would harm the child. War. Catastrophic weather events. Carnivorous dinosaurs being animated from ancient DNA.

 

[Singapope]

It's easy to think you'll be strong enough mentally to overcome whatever life throws at you when you're in a position with a good job, house, support system etc. But fast forward a little, what happens if you lose it all unexpectedly. You don't realise how hard depression hits you till it happens.

I can somewhat agree with what you're saying. I can imagine a scenario where you really "lose it all" (materially, mentally or both) by some completely unexpected twist of fate. The same would apply to someone with some super rare congenital illness who simply didn't know they had it until too late. It is not reasonable to expect everyone to know the unknowable.

However I don't believe these cases are a representation of the majority, or even a significant percentage.I think most people simply don't think enough about the gravity of the act of bringing another human into the world. How many parents here even thought about doing the kind of risk assessment that I am suggesting? How many had absolutely no history of depression? How many seriously asked themselves if they were ready for the truly bad times, and that they would not give up?

Once again, the discriminating question is the last one. If you are not ready to make that kind of commitment (and few people are! I know that well), then the truly ethical thing to do is to just not have kids. I don't think it's unreasonable to say this. Deciding to become a parent should come with an extremely serious commitment to life, because the well-being and suffering of another human is now fully attributable to you. This is what I'm hoping people would understand.

 

[AlreadyGone]

In before the thread lock

 

[Singapope]

That wasn't really a straw man. You yourself said people should plan for the possibility of mental health issues after the child is born. Therefore, they should plan for an unplanned death, or anything else that would harm the child. War. Catastrophic weather events. Carnivorous dinosaurs being animated from ancient DNA.

No they should not plan for that. They should however commit to not taking their own life before deciding to have a child. That is indeed a strawman.

I think it's time for this thread to be locked

This community has been censored and ousted from subreddit to subreddit for at least 6 years, and I've been there to see it all. Now that it gained some degree of freedom, you want it to start censoring back. Cool.

 

[Life_and_Death]

I think it's time for this thread to be locked

this thread shouldnt have even been started

This community has been censored and ousted for at least 6 years, and I've been there to see it all. Now that it gained some degree of freedom, you want it to start censoring back. Cool.

theres censoring then theres stopping an argument on a forum with sensitive people that others clearly dont think about before starting a topic. theres a difference.

if one was having an actual conversation and not just making parents feel worse because apparently they dont feel bad enough, then there wouldnt be a reason to lock it

 

[Worndown]

You need to walk that mile in their shoes before judging. Until it is you dealing with this, it is all hypothetical. I can only say I have personally seen the problem a child can face in the worst possible outcome. Fortunately that is the closest I have come to this issue.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I can somewhat agree with what you're saying. I can imagine a scenario where you really "lose it all" (materially, mentally or both) by some completely unexpected twist of fate. The same would apply to someone with some super rare congenital illness who simply didn't know they had it until too late. It is not reasonable to expect everyone to know the unknowable.

However I don't believe these cases are a representation of the majority, or even a significant percentage.I think most people simply don't think enough about the gravity of the act of bringing another human into the world. How many parents here even thought about doing the kind of risk assessment that I am suggesting? How many had absolutely no history of depression? How many seriously asked themselves if they were ready for the truly bad times, and that they would not give up?

Once again, the discriminating question is the last one. If you are not ready to make that kind of commitment (and few people are! I know that well), then the truly ethical thing to do is to just not have kids. I don't think it's unreasonable to say this. Deciding to become a parent should come with an extremely serious commitment to life, because the well-being and suffering of another human is now fully attributable to you. This is what I'm hoping people would understand.

Omg so now that someone has gotten through, you shift to a new stance so you can remain Right. Now you want to instead exhort people to not have kids if they haven't already, or at least do some serious forward thinking. That's a different subject requiring a new flaming thread.

 

[checkouttime]

Of course we cannot know the future but for every decision that involves risk, people should consider all the known factors.

you probably should feel extremely comfortable in your ability to give it the best shot you can.

That includes being confident that your resolve to be alive won't fail you at some point.

I don't believe for a second that everyone here who has a child made a completely rational decision when deciding to have it.

SO.......we should consider all factors.............but we cannot know the future?

We should be confident, our resolve to be alive won't fail...........Yet "you probably should feel extremely comfortable in your ability to give it the best shot you can"

I do like how people should always be thinking ahead and be confident.....but then we 'probably' should do some things and 'give it our best shot'

HMMMMM makes alot of sense........ i know who's advice I wouldn't consider, when making ANY decision