Suicide prevention is evil

[KiraLittleOwl]

I believe it must be a human right for a humane death. It's not something to celebrate of course if a person chooses to die but it's will be fair if they granted a dignified way to do it.
Nobody asked if they want this life in the first place.
I think that help should be offered first. Real help, not booklets or joke of a suicide prevention line. Meds, therapy, some kind of rehabilitation programs, housing assistance, disability benefits. (I don't think any country willing to provide that to full extent, it's just my vision of an ideal system)

If you refuse help you have to go through a check in system of some sort, so you have to be sure about your decision for a period of time, like maybe six months? And then you have it, a pill, a drink, or a injection in a cosy place, alone or surrounded by loved ones...
Sigh

 

[Zzzzz]

So there is no elibility criteria other than, like, having access to a significant sum of money in order to afford Dignitas? Absolutely bizarre that you'd aggressively state your demand for a "compassionate society" by suggesting a Dignitas in every GP surgery would be good, but the only essential eligibility criteria is hard cash.

Okay. To be fair I only said Dignitas because there's literally no other organization to compare it to. I definitely disagree with the ridiculous prices that Dignitas charges. I don't think death should costs thousands of dollars. I'm not against it being free, if possible. Obviously that would be ideal.

 

[Chinaski]

Okay. To be fair I only said Dignitas because there's literally no other organization to compare it to. I definitely disagree with the ridiculous prices that Dignitas charges. I don't think death should costs thousands of dollars. I'm not against it being free, if possible. Obviously that would be ideal.

So you ideally want a free clinic, available in a GP surgery, where anyone can attend and say "kill me pls". I reckon everybody who is suicidal would wish such a thing existed. The thing is, l can perfectly understand why it isn't, and would certainly not argue for such a thing which would be so open for misuse and abuse and would ultimately be used as a very obvious tool for social cleansing. It would not be a progressive step for society, at all.

If you, or anyone else, really has a genuine intent to ctb, it will be achieved, the means and methods are readily available. Stating "l want to die so badly but only in this particular way, and l demand that society provides it for me" is childish and puerile, and that's always what this "i h8 pro lifers" shit ultimately boils down to, essentially. Very few of us, suicidal or not, get the "dignified" death we hope for.

 

[TAW122]

So you ideally want a free clinic, available in a GP surgery, where anyone can attend and say "kill me pls". I reckon everybody who is suicidal would wish such a thing existed. The thing is, l can perfectly understand why it isn't, and would certainly not argue for such a thing which would be so open for misuse and abuse and would ultimately be used as a very obvious tool for social cleansing. It would not be a progressive step for society, at all.

If you, or anyone else, really has a genuine intent to ctb, it will be achieved, the means and methods are readily available. Stating "l want to die so badly but only in this particular way, and l demand that society provides it for me" is childish and puerile, and that's always what this "i h8 pro lifers" shit ultimately boils down to, essentially. Very few of us, suicidal or not, get the "dignified" death we hope for.

Well sure, there is potential for ANYTHING to be abused, cars, firearms, drugs, alcohol, you name it, but we don't ban all those things because someone might 'misuse' it? While nothing is perfect, if given enough protections, screenings, and checks and balances for such a system, then the odds of abuse will be much lower.

For your second paragraph, yes, you are right that are people who currently still successfully commit suicide, but there are many, many more people who fail, including those who really had everything carefully planned out, but someone or something gets in their way and either foils their attempt, their plans, or prevents them from going through (including being locked up against their will once their methods and plans have been discovered). You make it seem like the people who really want to die (not impulsive or just feeling temporary sadness or pain) will just successfully die. That isn't the case most of the time as they often suffer tremendously, have to hide constantly and even risk sometimes skirting the law (referring to some people who cross legal grey lines and take their chances to obtain their methods or what not) to achieve it, and then only to have things fail, get into legal trouble, financial debt, messed up life, and what not, and then only to one day succeed (after countless failures and unnecessary suffering). If they are able to get a dignified, peaceful death, then they don't have to resort to violent methods, take unnecessary risks, suffer senselessly, and potentially drag everyone around them down into their pit of misery.

 

[Chinaski]

Well sure, there is potential for ANYTHING to be abused, cars, firearms, drugs, alcohol, you name it, but we don't ban all those things because someone might 'misuse' it? While nothing is perfect, if given enough protections, screenings, and checks and balances for such a system, then the odds of abuse will be much lower.

For your second paragraph, yes, you are right that are people who currently still successfully commit suicide, but there are many, many more people who fail, including those who really had everything carefully planned out, but someone or something gets in their way and either foils their attempt, their plans, or prevents them from going through (including being locked up against their will once their methods and plans have been discovered). You make it seem like the people who really want to die (not impulsive or just feeling temporary sadness or pain) will just successfully die. That isn't the case most of the time as they often suffer tremendously, have to hide constantly and even risk sometimes skirting the law (referring to some people who cross legal grey lines and take their chances to obtain their methods or what not) to achieve it, and then only to have things fail, get into legal trouble, financial debt, messed up life, and what not, and then only to one day succeed (after countless failures and unnecessary suffering). If they are able to get a dignified, peaceful death, then they don't have to resort to violent methods, take unnecessary risks, suffer senselessly, and potentially drag everyone around them down into their pit of misery.

Tl;dr: we all hate these god damn pro lifers, but none of us can agree on what that criteria should be when applying for a free, cosy, comfy-yet-suitably-dramatic exit at our local government sanctioned dignitas kiosk.

Btw such a clinic differs a great deal from drugs, alcohol and even firearms in the way it can be abused, this is an absolutely lunk-headed false equivalence.

 

[lululoo]

Tl;dr: we all hate these god damn pro lifers, but none of us can agree on what that criteria should be when applying for a free, cosy, comfy-yet-suitably-dramatic exit at our local government sanctioned dignitas kiosk.

Btw such a clinic differs a great deal from drugs, alcohol and even firearms in the way it can be abused, this is an absolutely lunk-headed false equivalence.

Just because a few people in a suicide forum can't agree on the rules that should apply to a theoretical dignitas-for-all, I don't see how that negates the idea of broader access to assisted suicide. And what is wrong with wanting a comfortable suicide, one in which you don't have to worry about surviving and being disabled?

For the record, I believe if there were broader access that there should still be age limits, long waiting periods, and you should need to be suffering from some sort of chronic physical or mental illness. I'm sure a diverse group of doctors, ethicists, and laypeople could come up with better guidelines than I could. We are so far from this discussion being on the table that I can see why some people get upset and go too far in the other direction.

 

[Chinaski]

We are so far from this discussion being on the table that I can see why some people get upset and go too far in the other direction.

Could be that. Or it could be a repetitive cycle of sixth-form cod-philosophy churned out as if on a conveyor belt to justify their own individual childish foot-stomping about suicide being difficult because Evil Society will not provide them with the perfect death on demand. Survival instinct is a motherfucker, death is often undignified and ignominious, suicide can be genuinely very frightening and requires great courage; it's understandable that people, myself included, have failed to go through with it, but l honestly can't bear this utterly pathetic notion that Society is somehow to blame for the fact that we're not dead. It's absolutely ridiculous.

 

[NoOneKnows]

Could be that. Or it could be a repetitive cycle of sixth-form cod-philosophy churned out as if on a conveyor belt to justify their own individual childish foot-stomping about suicide being difficult because Evil Society will not provide them with the perfect death on demand. Survival instinct is a motherfucker, death is often undignified and ignominious, suicide can be genuinely very frightening and requires great courage; it's understandable that people, myself included, have failed to go through with it, but l honestly can't bear this utterly pathetic notion that Society is somehow to blame for the fact that we're not dead. It's absolutely ridiculous.

why are you talking about survival instinct ? You do realize there are many people here that already have done serious attempts ,but survived for one reason or another.

 

[Chinaski]

why are you talking about survival instinct ? You do realize there are many people here that already have done serious attempts ,but survived for one reason or another.

Of course l do, I'm one of them. Not sure what your point is here, frankly.

 

[Pulpit2018]

Of course l do, I'm one of them. Not sure what your point is here, frankly.

The point is,that not everyone is successful at an exit on his terms,and gets stopped by guess what?Other people.
You keep claiming that anyone can casually kill himself at any point with no inconvenience at his own choosing,with no chance of failure.Thats clearly FALSE,as we see everyday.

I know you do not like the idea of a Dignitas shop in the street corner,because it can be abused.Lame excuse,in my mind.You prefer people to suffer and stay alive,because some of them might get pushed by other people to suicide?Because that cannot happen already?

Why do you care if Dignitas offers the service?Nobody forces you to use it.
You have no right to dictate who can either.Thats between the client and Dignitas.
And no,you will not be taxed for it.Free market solves it.You wont have to think about it.Happy now?
But no,because you dont care about all that.You just dont want people to have an easy way out.Thats what it is,isnt it?


At least dont have the audacity to claim all is golden,and every suicidal can do whatever he wants with no consequences.Because thats just not true!

 

[Chinaski]

I know you do not like the idea of a Dignitas shop in the street corner,because it can be abused.Lame excuse,in my mind.You prefer people to suffer and stay alive,because some of them might get pushed by other people to suicide?Because that cannot happen already?

Why do you care if Dignitas offers the service?Nobody forces you to use it.
You have no right to dictate who can either.Thats between the client and Dignitas.
And no,you will not be taxed for it.Free market solves it.You wont have to think about it.Happy now?
But no,because you dont care about all that.You just dont want people to have an easy way out.Thats what it is,isnt it?


At least dont have the audacity to claim all is golden,and every suicidal can do whatever he wants with no consequences.Because thats just not true!

I'm not sure how I'm expected to engage with this drivel in a meaningful way as I've already made clear counterpoints to it earlier in this thread, but your insistence that "free market solves it" makes it quite clear that you've not thought this through. The OP has stated twice in this thread that financial problems such as medical debt can be resolved by offering those in such financial straits a free, peaceful suicide, and now you're here pitching about the Free Market solving all the problems of society by killing people for free. If you genuinely believe the answer to problems such as medical debt is euthanising those affected as opposed to, say, advocating for universally free healthcare at the point of need, you've no claim to be "compassionate", and could be considered to be a bit of a [EDITED AS REQUESTED].

 

[Pulpit2018]

Haha,i knew the free market would rile you up.I love how predictable you are.

No comments made on my arguments about access to a suicide clinic.Then you went on to say that the market will kill people for free.And that people with debts will be euthanised?
Where did i say any of this ?
Nobody is killing anyone,ffs.People can decide for themselves(oh,the horror!) if they want the service or not.
And they will pay it.Thats right.Besides the cost would come down significantly if it was widely available.Perhaps a few months work is all that would be needed for a cozy exit.
Its just a service,like getting your hair cut.

You are the one advocating for free healthcare,but it does not cover the demand of suicide.Why is that really?
If i can get expensive treatments for god knows what for free,then why not a cheaper suicide service?
At least if i am paying a ton of taxes for healthcare,i am entitled to ask for any service i god damn please.
Whats the problem there,mr free healthcare?Maybe because that would give people too many choices?

 

[Chlo]

 

[lululoo]

View attachment 7906

Why are you applauding someone calling someone else an idiot? I am genuinely curious. Why can't people have discussions here without the insults? Couldn't a suicide forum be one place where people go without being demeaned? I don't like wandering into various threads and seeing this. It taints what should be a safe haven. Call me a delicate flower or whatever you will...

And this isn't directed at you, but the lashing out just because someone has what you think is a dumb idea or opinion really just reveals that this hits a sore spot for you.

 

[Chinaski]

Haha,i knew the free market would rile you up.I love how predictable you are.

Really? That's weird, because l was mysteriously 'reported' for my reply, and was requested to edit it, which l did. I thought it must have been you who reported it, but given you've just stated that you posted something deliberately inflammatory in order to elicit such a reply and are now crowing about your success in this regard, it's unlikely that you did make such a report to staff after all, as that'd be a really shitty and pathetic cry-bully tactic which only serves to make the person using it look lower than pond life.

Nobody is killing anyone,ffs.People can decide for themselves(oh,the horror!) if they want the service or not.
And they will pay it.Thats right.Besides the cost would come down significantly if it was widely available.Perhaps a few months work is all that would be needed for a cozy exit.
Its just a service,like getting your hair cut.

So your criteria is dependent not on need, but on ability to pay. Absolutely love the "compassion" of this argument, in fact it's the Sound Business Sense which has completely swayed me here, wonderful stuff.

If i can get expensive treatments for god knows what for free,then why not a cheaper suicide service?
At least if i am paying a ton of taxes for healthcare,i am entitled to ask for any service i god damn please.
Whats the problem there,mr free healthcare?Maybe because that would give people too many choices?

For the last time: You are at liberty to ctb, at any time, for very little expense. The fact that you haven't is not the fault of Society, and anyone who considers immediate access to Free Market Suicide as the pinnacle of "compassion" is absolutely full of shit.

 

[Chinaski]

And this isn't directed at you, but the lashing out just because someone has what you think is a dumb idea or opinion really just reveals that this hits a sore spot for you.

Why not name who it is directed at? If people are going to enter this "safe haven" to splutter barely legible, half-baked opinions it's absolutely fair enough that they'll be assessed on it and perhaps expected to defend it. This whole "where is the empathy / compassion? This is a SUICIDE FORUM, it's a SAFE HAVEN!" horseshit could perhaps be better directed at the folks who trot out puerile alt-right crap, misogynistic bitterness, snake-oilers on the make, the numerous alts of weird stalkers, the fakers, the phoneys, the outright and obvious liars, than it is at those who simply post in a style which you personally dislike.

 

[OfficerK]

Well, better hope that Joe was able to save up a decent amount of money with his market dictated minimum wage before being paralyzed by ALS, cause I sure as hell ain't giving him no injection until he can prove he's able to pay up.

 

[Pulpit2018]

Really? That's weird, because l was mysteriously 'reported' for my reply, and was requested to edit it, which l did. I thought it must have been you who reported it, but given you've just stated that you posted something deliberately inflammatory in order to elicit such a reply and are now crowing about your success in this regard,

I did not report it.I have a thicker skin,lol.
But it was not inflammatory.Only you would consider the mention of free market inflammatory (!),haha.Shows what bothers you...

So your criteria is dependent not on need, but on ability to pay. Absolutely love the "compassion" of this argument, in fact it's the Sound Business Sense which has completely swayed me here, wonderful stuff.

There is no criteria!I dont expect others to pay for my desires!
Unless we have a system like your proposing where everybody gets treatment (in reality it cant work,but nevertheless) regardless of their ability to pay.
Then,i would expect a taxpayer to be able to demand a service like suicide.Why the hell is he paying otherwise?I can get a sex change but not suicide?

For the last time: You are at liberty to ctb, at any time, for very little expense. The fact that you haven't is not the fault of Society, and anyone who considers immediate access to Free Market Suicide as the pinnacle of "compassion" is absolutely full of shit.

Most people can complete suicide.However one is not always at liberty,at any time.Psych wards exist.So false again.
And i never claimed anything about pinnacle of compassion.This is about choice.I just want my choice to do it at the clinic if i so choose,i dont want your compassion,thanks!

BTW,i am sick and tired of you people claiming compassion by using others people 's money.You are not fooling anyone.

 

[lululoo]

Why not name who it is directed at? If people are going to enter this "safe haven" to splutter barely legible, half-baked opinions it's absolutely fair enough that they'll be assessed on it and perhaps expected to defend it. This whole "where is the empathy / compassion? This is a SUICIDE FORUM, it's a SAFE HAVEN!" horseshit could perhaps be better directed at the folks who trot out puerile alt-right crap, misogynistic bitterness, snake-oilers on the make, the numerous alts of weird stalkers, the fakers, the phoneys, the outright and obvious liars, than it is at those who simply post in a style which you personally dislike.

I didn't call you out because you're not the only person who does this.

Maybe we just are attuned to different things. I haven't noticed so much of those other issues you listed. I have noticed the issue that I commented on. What I said is not horseshit. It's my opinion that this place should strive to be one where people can disagree without wildly attacking each other.

I think you are intelligent and write well but you take people down harshly. People who are feeling desperate and fed up and yeah, they kind of want something handed to them that shouldn't be easy. But maybe it should be easier. And maybe they just can't deal with having to figure this all out themselves. I can't blame them. I felt that way and sort of still feel that way even though I have gotten much further with planning. I wish I could go to a clinic like a sick dog instead of doing this alone with fear.

 

[Pulpit2018]

horseshit could perhaps be better directed at the folks who trot out puerile alt-right crap, misogynistic bitterness, snake-oilers on the make, the numerous alts of weird stalkers, the fakers, the phoneys, the outright and obvious liars, than it is at those who simply post in a style which you personally dislike.

Woah there,so everyone is to be questioned,expect your Majesty,because thats just your style.Well,is that not convenient?
I am the only one in this forum tired of this self-jerking?

 

[Chinaski]

I wish I could go to a clinic like a sick dog instead of doing this alone with fear.

Me too. Everybody with suicidal ideation, even if only fleetingly, would agree. I said as much above. I also maintain that whilst this mythical death clinic would be very convenient for me as an individual, it is not the mark of a "compassionate" society to offer immediate government-approved death on demand, no questions asked.

As l repeatedly say, l understand that suicide is difficult. I just don't understand how society is "evil" for not dishing out death on demand, and see literally zero merit in the near-constant white noise of this achingly banal, arid, vacuous adolescent circle-jerk.

 

[OfficerK]

Unless we have a system like your proposing where everybody gets treatment (in reality it cant work,but nevertheless) regardless of their ability to pay.

Most developed countries have such systems, even within a capitalist framework, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at here?

The notion that a privatized healthcare system somehow provides people with more choices is absurd to me. When you get sick, you realistically have two choices: die or seek out treatment. Most people (maybe not the people here) don't have to contemplate for too long and pick the latter option. Healthcare isn't like other commodities where the supplier has to convince you to buy their product or service. They know that you will always opt for receiving help and can thus name whatever price they'd like. This isn't just theory, you can clearly see it happening in the US, where the price of healthcare is unreasonably inflated and where the fact that the American medical corporations receive more tax money per citizen than the citizens of most (all?) other comparable nations pay for their public systems seems to have no bearing on what they charge.

Being indebted to someone else for simply having the audacity to exist is not my idea of freedom, and I think it is ridiculous to think that someone in a situation like that has more control over their own lives than someone who is protected from medical debt (and other forms of debt, e.g. student debt) through taxes.

 

[Chinaski]

Unless we have a system like your proposing where everybody gets treatment (in reality it cant work,but nevertheless) regardless of their ability to pay.

Mate, type "National Health Service" into Google, you'll see such a system which "can't work" has recently had its seventieth birthday.

 

[lululoo]

I just don't understand how society is "evil" for not dishing out death on demand, and see literally zero merit in the near-constant white noise of this achingly banal, arid, vacuous adolescent circle-jerk.

I think part of what this forum offers people is a space for those sorts of vents, even if they are not original vents in the slightest. Maybe if it was the same person over and over complaining, they would be more deserving of a Chinaski smack down (though I still don't see the need to be rude). But different people want to get similar things off their chest, and they're not going to search the whole forum first. A lot of the forum is repetitious, as far as venting, methods questions, etc. And I think that's fine to an extent. Especially considering the active members rotate, so if you ask an old question or make an old complaint you might get different responses.

 

[Redt2go]

Chinaski smack down

man becomes legend lol

 

[Chinaski]

Maybe if it was the same person over and over complaining

This is third thread started by the OP on this theme. This forum as "venting space" is fine in theory, but at what point is this line drawn between venting and offering up genuinely terrible opinions? Absolutely baffling that someone can come into a thread and say "death on demand is the mark of a truly compassionate society (but only if you can afford it cos muh markets)", yet the person offering a legitimate challenge to this hellishly bad opinion is given the dressing down because Safe Haven. I don't get your motivation here, perhaps it's motivated by something not contained in this thread.

 

[lululoo]

This is third thread started by the OP on this theme. This forum as "venting space" is fine in theory, but at what point is this line drawn between venting and offering up genuinely terrible opinions? Absolutely baffling that someone can come into a thread and say "death on demand is the mark of a truly compassionate society (but only if you can afford it cos muh markets)", yet the person offering a legitimate challenge to this hellishly bad opinion is given the dressing down because Safe Haven. I don't get your motivation here, perhaps it's motivated by something not contained in this thread.

I really don't have hidden motivation. The quality of the OP's arguments vs yours are not what I was commenting on. Personally it doesn't bother me if the OP is too extreme in his argument. Look, different strokes for different folks. You are riled up by opinions you consider unintelligent and ill-formed; I am riled up by insults and shaming toward opinions that I relate to partially (whether I relate 10% or 90%) and just generally by seeing people be mocked and insulted. And today I was riled up enough to say something. I'm not all "SAFE HAVEN!!!" in that I think people can't make criticisms, but there are different ways of doing that. I guess there's nothing more to say about it. Agree to disagree.

 

[Amber1974]

man becomes legend lol

Chinaski specializes in smack downs, i for one find it highly entertaining

 

[GeorgeEastman]

LOL, generally terrible opinions?

Hell, I think they're all terrible. Time to just deal with the facts. Fact is, life sucks. Maybe I'm too stupid to kill myself, but at least I can be glad I will someday die. This is gonna happen. That's the fact. Hell of a good fact.

 

[Chinaski]

Personally it doesn't bother me if the OP is too extreme in his argument. Look, different strokes for different folks. You are riled up by opinions you consider unintelligent and ill-formed; I am riled up by insults and shaming toward opinions that I relate to partially (whether I relate 10% or 90%) and just generally by seeing people be mocked and insulted.

This would hold a little more weight if the poster l was engaging with in a manner of which you're so disapproving consistently exhibited an interaction style which meets the standard you describe. He does not.

I would also add the quality in terms of soundness and integrity of an argument is of lesser importance than the manner in which they're expressed is an unsound logic, if this is the collective mentality of this forum then it goes some way to explaining why some of rather more, er, 'controversial' socio-political views consistently expressed on this forum go unchecked and are essentially enabled as a result.