Method SN + Train

[esse_est_percipi]

SN is reliable enough in itself that you really don't need to consider combining it with other methods.

I do agree with this.
If you already have sn, then choosing to add train method is just needless overdetermination.
But if someone can't get sn for whatever reason, I'm not sure I agree that the train method on its own is 'utterly selfish'. Might be selfish in some cases, but not in others, depends on the reasons and motivating factors for the individual.

 

[autumnal]

I do agree with this.
If you already have sn, then choosing to add train method is just needless overdetermination.
But if someone can't get sn for whatever reason, I'm not sure I agree that the train method on its own is 'utterly selfish'. Might be selfish in some cases, but not in others, depends on the reasons and motivating factors for the individual.

My position, and that of some others here, is that the train method is always selfish because of the traumatic effect it has on the driver. This is regardless of how severe the reasons and motivations held by the suicidal person may be. Due to the number of other viable methods available, albeit some requiring some effort or preparation, it is my view that there is never a reason for this selfishness of the train method to be justified.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

My position, and that of some others here, is that the train method is always selfish because of the traumatic effect it has on the driver. This is regardless of how severe the reasons and motivations held by the suicidal person may be. Due to the number of other viable methods available, albeit some requiring some effort or preparation, it is my view that there is never a reason for this selfishness of the train method to be justified.

I completely understand that it can have a traumatic effect on the driver, and in a lot of cases there is a selfishness to it.

But what about if a person is psychotic, believes they are possessed by a demon, and that the only way to get rid of it is to jump in front of a train?
Or they might have depersonalization disorder and not feel in control of their actions. It may seem to them like they were 'forced' to do it by factors beyond their will. You may reply by saying that in these cases the person has diminished responsibility due to a severe mental condition, making these examples somewhat irrelevant. I could just be getting sidetracked by trying to think of very rare occurrences which may escape the accusation of selfishness, but you did say "regardless of how severe the reasons and motivations held by the suicidal person may be".

I'm certainly not an advocate of this method, as it can ruin other people's lives, and I'm not trying to be deliberately argumentative or fussy.
But I think that occasionally there can be mitigating factors which exonerate the train death person from the accusation of selfishness.

 

[Lupgevif]

The problem of the train method is not the traumatic effect per se, as I have said in this thread before, by commiting suicide you are risking traumatizing a lot of people. After you are gone there is no control over who will first see your corpse. It is the guilty the conductor will go through, as they will inevitably think they "could've stopped the train earlier" and performed any other security procedure better. Even if they are piloting a hard to control behemoth, and you jump in front of it as late as possible, they will still think they've killed someone, that's how humans (tend to) behave.
But even then, depending of how many people you have around in your life, you can also inflict guilty. Maybe you wish to (which is also selfish, even if it's as revenge), but if not, other people will still think they could've seen the signs earlier, stayed closer so they could've seen you planning the act, etc. I'd say to avoid suicide by train, thinking of the conductor, but it's not like this is the only method that will inflict pain onto others.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

it's not like this is the only method that will inflict pain onto others.

Yes, any method will have a effect in the world.
But people wouldn't ctb unless they felt they really had no other choice.
It's ultimately down to each person to decide, it shouldn't be delegated to the state or society to decide if ctb is valid or right for any individual.

 

[ceelo]

I completely understand that it can have a traumatic effect on the driver, and in a lot of cases there is a selfishness to it.

But what about if a person is psychotic, believes they are possessed by a demon, and that the only way to get rid of it is to jump in front of a train?
Or they might have depersonalization disorder and not feel in control of their actions. It may seem to them like they were 'forced' to do it by factors beyond their will. You may reply by saying that in these cases the person has diminished responsibility due to a severe mental condition, making these examples somewhat irrelevant. I could just be getting sidetracked by trying to think of very rare occurrences which may escape the accusation of selfishness, but you did say "regardless of how severe the reasons and motivations held by the suicidal person may be".

I'm certainly not an advocate of this method, as it can ruin other people's lives, and I'm not trying to be deliberately argumentative or fussy.
But I think that occasionally there can be mitigating factors which exonerate the train death person from the accusation of selfishness.

what if they leave a note for the driver? just apologising, saying why you did it and its not their fault etc.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

what if they leave a note for the driver? just apologising, saying why you did it and its not their fault etc.

I guess that could help, but they would have to make sure driver somehow gets it after they ctb, and also you never know what the long-term subconscious effects could be on the driver, despite a note of apology.

 

[Lupgevif]

what if they leave a note for the driver? just apologising, saying why you did it and its not their fault etc.

I thought about this, but you know how so many people are "pro-life" and how suicide is seem as wrong/not ideal. Just the thought of helping someone in suicide is enough to bring guilt, especially if it is someone the conductor never saw before and has no way to empathize with/know about their suffering and how much they desired to leave life.