Discussion Should Israel invade Rafah?

[Pessimist]

I'm personally against an invasion of Rafah, even if there's a full evacuation of the civilian population before it. I don't think it's possible to "eliminate Hamas" at this point, especially not when many of them are fighting in civilian clothes. Israel should strive for a hostage deal and increase the humanitarian aid to Gaza.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Hell no. I think they've murdered enough people.

 

[Pessimist]

Hell no. I think they've murdered enough people.

Mostly collateral damage. Israel is sometimes reckless when it comes to civilian lives, but in other instances the opposite is true.



This is very different from Islamist militants massacring 1.2k people in a single day:

Re'im music festival massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Psyduck music festival massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Be'eri massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Kfar Aza massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nir Oz massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Netiv HaAsara massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Alumim massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Holit attack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Kissufim massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[locked*n*loaded]

I know what Hamas did. I don't condone what they did. I think Israel's response has been anything other than proportional. They've gone too far and they're losing the support of the world because of it. I no longer feel sorry for them.

 

[Pessimist]

I know what Hamas did. I don't condone what they did. I think Israel's response has been anything other than proportional. They've gone too far and they're losing the support of the world because of it. I no longer feel sorry for them.

I see your point. I agree with Yair Lapid, the Israeli Leader of the Opposition, who said that more humanitarian aid needs to go into Gaza. I also oppose an invasion of Rafah, despite Israeli plans for civilian evacuation.




On the other hand, it's important to note that Israel is also fighting the PIJ. Another Islamist terrorist organization in the Gaza Strip, it has many thousands of members.

 

[xinino]

Israel should invade the whole world.

 

[Pessimist]

Israel should invade the whole world.

It's a serious topic, why troll? Only the Hamas Charter says that Israel is planning to invade the entire world. And you need to be very antisemitic to take any of this Islamist nonsense seriously:

 

[xinino]

It's a serious topic, why troll? Only the Hamas Charter says that Israel is planning to invade the entire world. And you need to be very antisemitic to take any of this Islamist nonsense seriously:

View attachment 137576View attachment 137577

I wasn't trolling, I love Israel, I believe the world needs to unite under their control.

 

[Pessimist]

I wasn't trolling, I love Israel, I believe the world needs to unite under their control.

Why?

 

[xinino]

Why?

To improve the world, they are the most intelligent people on earth. The land belongs to who serves it.

 

[ham and potatoes]

They are in a bad situation regardless of what they do.
If they go in and invade, they are going to kill allot of innocent people because hamas is using the population as human shields.
If they don't invade, and they just leave the terrorist alive, they are just going to attack again at some point down the road.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't

 

[1MiserableGuy]

People do not inherit land because they're great, they lose land for centuries of national disobedience to God. We're seeing Ezekiel 25 in action.

 

[struggles_inc]

I'm so done with countries invading each other and with "leaders" feeling entitled to start wars.

 

[Pessimist]

I'm so done with countries invading each other and with "leaders" feeling entitled to start wars.

Hamas Islamist terrorists invaded Israel, massacred and kidnapped thousands of people. At that point the invasion of Gaza was completely justified imo.

 

[Adûnâi]

Hamas Islamist terrorists invaded Israel, massacred and kidnapped thousands of people. At that point the invasion of Gaza was completely justified imo.

How is this invasion justified if such actions will never lead to a genocide? So far, the Israelis have killed what, some laughable number - 35 thousand? Yikes.

I oppose the invasion of the Gaza Strip because the proper course of action would have been to enact a blockade - thus starving all their lot like Stalin supposedly did in the Holodomor. Or how the Anglos did with the Germans in both world wars.

Case in point - 150 thousand Artsakh Armenians were ethnically cleansed in September 2023, and nobody gave the slightest amount of shit.

P.S. I'm an anti-Semite, but come on, seeing Israel so pathetically cucked disappoints me.

 

[Pessimist]

How is this invasion justified if such actions will never lead to a genocide? So far, the Israelis have killed what, some laughable number - 35 thousand? Yikes.

I oppose the invasion of the Gaza Strip because the proper course of action would have been to enact a blockade - thus starving all their lot like Stalin supposedly did in the Holodomor. Or how the Anglos did with the Germans in both world wars.

Case in point - 150 thousand Artsakh Armenians were ethnically cleansed in September 2023, and nobody gave the slightest amount of shit.

P.S. I'm an anti-Semite, but come on, seeing Israel so pathetically cucked disappoints me.

As an Israeli Jew, I strongly condemn genocide. I believe that humanitarian aid to Gaza should be increased, and Israel needs to make sure to evacuate the civilian population before any attack. I don't think that Bibi is doing a good job conducting the war against Hamas. At the same time, not all of the 31k Palestinians killed are civilians. Many of them are Islamist terrorists from Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

Israel Has Created a New Standard for Urban Warfare. No One Will Admit It

All available evidence shows that Israel has followed the laws of war, legal obligations, best practices in civilian harm mitigation and still found a way to reduce civilian casualties.

www.newsweek.com

The Islamist terrorists in Gaza are also executing their own people (it's later blamed on Israel):

 

[shtangley01]

From an ethical position, obviously not, it would be an unprecedented act of cruelty and violence on one of the most beaten down populations of the modern era. From a material consideration, obviously not, as its looking to be the one thing they could do to lose the support of their biggest donor (the US) it would turn egypt against them, and it would achieve nothing but mass death and suffering on one of the most beaten down populations of the modern era.
Not to mention the harm done to the hostages, which I would cite as a reason not to do it but its clear that the Israeli government don't care about the hostages one bit, considering a) the fact that they've been bombing them, and b) the fact that they've turned down biden's peace accords, which include the return of all Israeli hostages, after Hamas agreed to the terms.

 

[Pessimist]

From an ethical position, obviously not, it would be an unprecedented act of cruelty and violence on one of the most beaten down populations of the modern era. From a material consideration, obviously not, as its looking to be the one thing they could do to lose the support of their biggest donor (the US) it would turn egypt against them, and it would achieve nothing but mass death and suffering on one of the most beaten down populations of the modern era.
Not to mention the harm done to the hostages, which I would cite as a reason not to do it but its clear that the Israeli government don't care about the hostages one bit, considering a) the fact that they've been bombing them, and b) the fact that they've turned down biden's peace accords, which include the return of all Israeli hostages, after Hamas agreed to the terms.

I think the ceasefire proposal you're talking about was put forward by Egyptian and Qatari mediators. It was very unfair towards Israel, and demanded many Islamist terrorists released from Israeli prisons.

 

[Pessimist]

@Adûnâi you wouldn't like it

 

[real human being]

The actions of Israel are entirely genocidal, unethical, and unjustified. They have killed tens of thousands of children. The only ethical thing to do is to end the genocide and allow aid in.

 

[Pessimist]

The actions of Israel are entirely genocidal, unethical, and unjustified. They have killed tens of thousands of children. The only ethical thing to do is to end the genocide and allow aid in.

I don't know where you get your numbers from, but even the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry doesn't report such numbers. Personally, I believe that Israel has killed about 20k civilians, mostly women and children, since October 7.

How the Gaza Ministry of Health Fakes Casualty Numbers

The evidence is in their own poorly fabricated figures

www.tabletmag.com

Hamas-Run Gaza Health Ministry Admits to Flaws in Casualty Data

The Hamas-run Gaza Ministry of Health said on April 6 that it had “incomplete data” for 11,371 of the 33,091 Palestinian fatalities it claims to have documented. In a statistical...

www.fdd.org

 

[real human being]

I don't know where you get your numbers from, but even the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry doesn't report such numbers. Personally, I believe that Israel has killed about 20k civilians, mostly women and children, since October 7.

How the Gaza Ministry of Health Fakes Casualty Numbers

The evidence is in their own poorly fabricated figures

www.tabletmag.com

Hamas-Run Gaza Health Ministry Admits to Flaws in Casualty Data

The Hamas-run Gaza Ministry of Health said on April 6 that it had “incomplete data” for 11,371 of the 33,091 Palestinian fatalities it claims to have documented. In a statistical...

www.fdd.org

Gaza's health ministry reports over 36,000 dead thus far, roughly 50% of which are children. You say it is unreliable and fakes deaths. If so, why has the government of Israel repeatedly relied on it? It is far more likely that the 36,000 deaths figure is a huge UNDERESTIMATE, because these are deaths that have been CONFIRMED.

What I don't get though, is how people like you can stand there arguing about details - "Oh, it's not 20,000 dead children, it's only 10,000." - while a systemic genocide of an occupied and oppressed people is occurring. I absolutely condemn the October 7th attack. I condemn Hamas's actions. I condemn the killing of ALL innocent civilians. Do you condemn the killing of countless innocent children? Do you condemn the systemic destruction of hospitals, and the systemic starvation of 2 million people in Gaza?

And don't go spouting bullshit like that this is Israel 'defending itself'. This is no more 'self defense' than the October 7th attack. This is a military occupying force committing genocide against a group of people that it has oppressed and dehumanized for decades. The clock does not start on October 7th. The majority of the population of Gaza are the descendants of REFUGEES forced from their homes where they have lived for generations by the government of Israel.

 

[Pessimist]

Gaza's health ministry reports over 36,000 dead thus far, roughly 50% of which are children. You say it is unreliable and fakes deaths. If so, why has the government of Israel repeatedly relied on it? It is far more likely that the 36,000 deaths figure is a huge UNDERESTIMATE, because these are deaths that have been CONFIRMED.

What I don't get though, is how people like you can stand there arguing about details - "Oh, it's not 20,000 dead children, it's only 10,000." - while a systemic genocide of an occupied and oppressed people is occurring. I absolutely condemn the October 7th attack. I condemn Hamas's actions. I condemn the killing of ALL innocent civilians. Do you condemn the killing of countless innocent children? Do you condemn the systemic destruction of hospitals, and the systemic starvation of 2 million people in Gaza?

And don't go spouting bullshit like that this is Israel 'defending itself'. This is no more 'self defense' than the October 7th attack. This is a military occupying force committing genocide against a group of people that it has oppressed and dehumanized for decades. The clock does not start on October 7th. The majority of the population of Gaza are the descendants of REFUGEES forced from their homes where they have lived for generations by the government of Israel.

1. It is sad that many thousands of civilians died. The Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry considers anyone who is under 18 as a "child", which is a bit problematic when they are sometimes brainwashed or recruited by the terrorists:

Pisgat Ze'ev stabbings - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2. Many deaths are not confirmed:

Hamas-Run Gaza Health Ministry Admits to Flaws in Casualty Data

The Hamas-run Gaza Ministry of Health said on April 6 that it had “incomplete data” for 11,371 of the 33,091 Palestinian fatalities it claims to have documented. In a statistical...

www.fdd.org

3. Like I said, I condemn with the way the Israeli govevrnment is conducting this war. I think we should increase humanitarian aid.

4. Rather than a genocide, it seems like a case of collateral damage, in which the Israeli bombing campaign has been somewhat indiscriminate. Personally, I think it's different from Islamist terrorists deliberately shooting, torturing and kidnapping babies:


- 10-month-old baby Mila Cohen was shot and murdered in the Be'eri massacre. In the picture you can see her father, Ohad, who was also murdered. Her grandmother, Yona, was murdered as well.




- An entire family, including 2-year-old baby Omer Kedem Siman Tov, murdered in the Nir Oz massacre.




- Children and babies kidnapped by the Islamist terrorists of Hamas and the PIJ.

 

[real human being]

1. It is sad that many thousands of civilians died. The Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry considers anyone who is under 18 as a "child", which is a bit problematic when they are sometimes brainwashed or recruited by the terrorists:

Pisgat Ze'ev stabbings - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2. Many deaths are not confirmed:

Hamas-Run Gaza Health Ministry Admits to Flaws in Casualty Data

The Hamas-run Gaza Ministry of Health said on April 6 that it had “incomplete data” for 11,371 of the 33,091 Palestinian fatalities it claims to have documented. In a statistical...

www.fdd.org

3. Like I said, I condemn with the way the Israeli govevrnment is conducting this war. I think we should increase humanitarian aid.

4. Rather than a genocide, it seems like a case of collateral damage, in which the Israeli bombing campaign has been somewhat indiscriminate. Personally, I think it's different from Islamist terrorists deliberately shooting, torturing and kidnapping babies:

View attachment 139401
- 10-month-old baby Mila Cohen was shot and murdered in the Be'eri massacre. In the picture you can see her father, Ohad, who was also murdered. Her grandmother, Yona, was murdered as well.



View attachment 139402
- An entire family, including 2-year-old baby Omer Kedem Siman Tov, murdered in the Nir Oz massacre.



View attachment 139400
- Children and babies kidnapped by the Islamist terrorists of Hamas and the PIJ.

I think that you have to be either willfully ignorant or utterly naive to say that the civilian casualties in Gaza are 'collateral damage'. When the majority of buildings in Gaza have been turned to RUBBLE, that is not collateral damage, that is systemic. When civilians are starving and aid is not allowed to come in, that is systemic. There is a systemic destruction of all the infrastructure that supports life in Gaza.

There are countless videos showing Israeli soldiers killing unarmed Palestinians, in some cases waving white flags:


The kidnapping and killing of children is always a horrific crime. Which is why your lack of care for the tens of thousands of murdered Palestinian children, while only highlighting Israeli casualties as being horrific, is absolutely disgusting.

I find your refusal to condemn the actions of Israel as war crimes and genocidal - no less so than the actions of Hamas - to be utterly repugnant.

An immediate stop to the genocide and granting equal human rights to the Palestinian populations that have been oppressed for over 70 years is the only way forward.

 

[Pessimist]

I think that you have to be either willfully ignorant or utterly naive to say that the civilian casualties in Gaza are 'collateral damage'. When the majority of buildings in Gaza have been turned to RUBBLE, that is not collateral damage, that is systemic. When civilians are starving and aid is not allowed to come in, that is systemic. There is a systemic destruction of all the infrastructure that supports life in Gaza.

There are countless videos showing Israeli soldiers killing unarmed Palestinians, in some cases waving white flags:


The kidnapping and killing of children is always a horrific crime. Which is why your lack of care for the tens of thousands of murdered Palestinian children, while only highlighting Israeli casualties as being horrific, is absolutely disgusting.

I find your refusal to condemn the actions of Israel as war crimes and genocidal - no less so than the actions of Hamas - to be utterly repugnant.

An immediate stop to the genocide and granting equal human rights to the Palestinian populations that have been oppressed for over 70 years is the only way forward.

1. Do you know that there were mass evacuations before many bombings? This is just the latest from Rafah:




2. Do you know that Islamist terrorists in Gaza are sometimes killing their own people just to blame it on Israel? Some examples:

 

[real human being]

1. Do you know that there were mass evacuations before many bombings? This is just the latest from Rafah:




2. Do you know that Islamist terrorists in Gaza are sometimes killing their own people just to blame it on Israel? Some examples:

1. Yeah telling the the ENTIRETY of north Gaza (roughly 1 million people) that they have 24 hours to leave their homes and or they'll be considered combatants is SO humane. Imagine if a foreign entity invaded New York City and told everyone in the north they have 24 hours to evacuate to the south, and then bombing the ever living shit out of it.

Rafah is a small safe zone that Israel has already told Gazans to evacuate to, and now they are again telling them to evacuate elsewhere. People there are already living in TENTS in horrid and dense conditions, without healthcare and without food. And now they're supposed to evacuate again. If this isn't a tactic to terrorise civilians and destroy Gaza's capacity to support life, I don't know what is.

2. Both tweets that you shared are not if 'Hamas killing people to blame it on Israel' but of militants controlling the flow of a limited amount of aid. When there is an incredibly small amount of food to go around between an incredibly large amount of people (to the point Gazans are literally resorting to trying to eat grass), obviously the men with the guns and the power are gonna take the lion's share (which is not an excuse for their behaviour). The entity that created these conditions of starvation is the government of Israel.



You haven't actually responded to my post. Again, why are you working so hard to pathetically try to justify blatant war crimes and acts of genocide? It's almost like you're not arguing in good faith.

 

[Pessimist]

1. Yeah telling the the ENTIRETY of north Gaza (roughly 1 million people) that they have 24 hours to leave their homes and or they'll be considered combatants is SO humane. Imagine if a foreign entity invaded New York City and told everyone in the north they have 24 hours to evacuate to the south, and then bombing the ever living shit out of it.

Rafah is a small safe zone that Israel has already told Gazans to evacuate to, and now they are again telling them to evacuate elsewhere. People there are already living in TENTS in horrid and dense conditions, without healthcare and without food. And now they're supposed to evacuate again. If this isn't a tactic to terrorise and civilians and destroy Gaza's capacity to support life, I don't know what is.

2. When there is an incredibly small amount of food to go around between an incredibly large amount of people (to the point Gazans are literally resorting to trying to eat grass), obviously the men with the guns and the power are gonna take the lion's share (which is not an excuse for their behaviour). The entity that created these conditions of starvation is the government Israel.



You haven't actually responded to my post. Again, why are you working so hard to pathetically try to justify blatant war crimes? It's almost like you're not arguing in good faith.

1. That's not what Israel is doing. Here are the casualties and losses of the Rafah invasion so far:



Israeli soldiers told civilians they will wait until they evacuate:




2. Also, breaking news:

UN revises Gaza death toll, almost 50% less women and children killed than previously reported

The United Nations suddenly adjusted its death toll count in Gaza to show that less women and children were killed, admitting widely quoted Hamas data is unreliable.

www.foxnews.com

3. I'm not trying to justify war crimes, and I don't even support the hardline right-wing Israeli government, but I also don't think that the Jews are committing a genocide now. We can talk about other alleged war crimes, but not every war crime is a "genocide".

 

[real human being]

1. You quoted the majority of my text and just said 'That's not what Israel is doing'. I can't tell what you're responding to and I doubt anyone else can tell either. And the source you're using is wikipedia, and wikipedia's source is a CNN article, not any kind of official statistic.

2. Okay, so you shared a fox news article about a UN estimation that is TOTALLY not biased by the USA and still puts the toll of dead children at over 8,000.

3. If you're not trying to support war crimes, are you willing to condemn Israel's actions and call for an immediate peace? Because otherwise, you're supporting war crimes. And the deliberate destruction of a group of people is genocide.

 

[Pessimist]

1. You quoted the majority of my text and just said 'That's not what Israel is doing'. I can't tell what you're responding to and I doubt anyone else can tell either. And the source you're using is wikipedia, and wikipedia's source is a CNN article, not any kind of official statistic.

2. Okay, so you shared a fox news article about a UN estimation that is TOTALLY not biased by the USA and still puts the toll of dead children at over 8,000.

3. If you're not trying to support war crimes, are you willing to condemn Israel's actions and call for an immediate peace? Because otherwise, you're supporting war crimes. And the deliberate destruction of a group of people is genocide.

1. You said they have 24 hours to leave their homes and or they'll be considered combatants. That's not accurate.

2. Does it really matter if it's "Fox News" or a different news outlet?

United Nations halves estimate of women and children killed in Gaza

The United Nations (UN) significantly lowers its previously stated casualty list in the Gaza Strip,

nationalpost.com

i24NEWS

www.i24news.tv

3. I condemn specific incidents/war crimes by specific people/soldiers, not an entire state. Also, I'm not sure you understand what Hamas and Islamic Jihad represent in Palestine. Their ultimate goal is to establish a theocratic Islamic state "from the river to the sea" (and arguably genocide the Jews).

 

[real human being]

1. You said they have 24 hours to leave their homes and or they'll be considered combatants. That's not accurate.

2. Does it really matter if it's "Fox News" or a different news outlet?

United Nations halves estimate of women and children killed in Gaza

The United Nations (UN) significantly lowers its previously stated casualty list in the Gaza Strip,

nationalpost.com

i24NEWS

www.i24news.tv

3. I condemn specific incidents/war crimes by specific people/soldiers, not an entire state. Also, I'm not sure you understand what Hamas and Islamic Jihad represent in Palestine. Their ultimate goal is to establish a theocratic Islamic state "from the river to the sea" (and arguably genocide the Jews).

View attachment 139487View attachment 139488

1. It is accurate:

Israel to UN: Northern Gaza Should Evacuate Within 24 Hours

As Israel prepares for possible Gaza ground offensive, IDF says 1.1 million Palestinians should move south, which a UN spokesperson calls ‘impossible’ without devastating humanitarian consequences

www.voanews.com

Civilians who don't leave northern Gaza to be considered associate of 'terrorists': Israel

Israeli army airdrops 'urgent warning' flyers on northern Gaza, urging residents to evacuate to south of besieged enclave - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

2.
My point about the UN being biased by the USA still stands.

3. You have no problem condemning Hamas as a whole, but when it comes to Israel you attempt to dodge the question by saying 'oh I'll only condemn specific actions'. You are refusing to condemn a government that has killed over 100x more innocent children than Hamas. Also, you should educate yourself about the historical origin of Hamas (as well as this conflict in general). Israel helped create Hamas to prevent a more moderate government:

How Israel went from helping 'create' Hamas to bombing it

Hamas has roots watered by Israeli funding, former military governor of Gaza admits

www.tbsnews.net