Selling your soul

[Taylor]

...but sin and death do still exist. To me, this constitutes "cold, hard, factual evidence" that God does not exist.

I'm not going to bother getting through to anyone who makes an ultimate assumption or claim such as this one, when that assumption is based off of misconception and a misinformed, lack of knowledge on what Christianity actually is. I would suggest watching this video in it's entirety, before attempting to argue with a true, educated believer such as myself:

 

[ShadowOfTheDay]

I'm not going to bother getting through to anyone who makes an ultimate assumption or claim such as this one, when that assumption is based off of misconception and a misinformed, lack of knowledge on what Christianity actually is. I would suggest watching this video in it's entirety, before attempting to argue with a true, educated believer such as myself:

Okay. Cool.

 

[Taylor]

So, since you have no "proof" that he exists, why do you continue to ramble on about some fake character in the sky?

You have exhausted all your claims with no factual evidence that you once claimed you had.

Thanks for playing. Please try again.

Lol you are such a sad soul you know that? It's one thing to argue with someone, but to continually contort my message and make false claims of what I actually said, for the sake of said argument, is beyond childish and rather comical actually haha. I refuse to waste my time and partake in that.

 

[Empty Smile]

Lol you are such a sad soul you know that? It's one thing to argue with someone, but to continually contort my message and make false claims of what I actually said, for the sake of said argument, is beyond childish and rather comical actually haha. I refuse to waste my time and partake in that.

I don't have to contort your messages and make false claims of what you said. You're doing a fine job of that yourself. I keep asking for proof and factual evidence. You keep refusing to provide such.

You refuse to waste your time and partake in this? Then why do you continue to reply and trying to get the last word in trying to save what dignity you have left?

 

[ShadowOfTheDay]

Lol you are such a sad soul you know that? It's one thing to argue with someone, but to continually contort my message and make false claims of what I actually said, for the sake of said argument, is beyond childish and rather comical actually haha. I refuse to waste my time and partake in that.

Lol you are such a sad soul you know that? It's one thing to argue with someone, but to continually contort my message and make false claims of what I actually said, for the sake of said argument, is beyond childish and rather comical actually haha. I refuse to waste my time and partake in that.

You're not very good at proselytizing. If your goal is to convert people, you should make an effort to be more kind. Didn't Jesus say something about "turning the other cheek?"

 

[Alchemist]

So, since you have no "proof" that he exists, why do you continue to ramble on about some fake character in the sky?

You have exhausted all your claims with no factual evidence that you once claimed you had.

Thanks for playing. Please try again.

So far I've only only seen the same apologetics and fallacies parroted by every believer on the world. The only thing missing is the crocoduck.

I've already seen Pascal's wager, which was refuted in another thread; and shift of the burden of proof, which means that the person who claims that something exists must be the one able to prove that, it's like saying that Goku exists because no one can't prove he doesn't.

So far we know that sin is a made-up trouble created to sell an imaginary cure. But it's hard to convince someone who takes as facts a collection of folkoric tales of a tribe of bronze age herder, four Greek guys and that was later collected by a group of Roman who were looking to create a state religion to unite their shambling empire without even caring that those stories were full of contradictions.

 

[Deadgirl]

There's no cold, hard, factual evidence or proof that God doesn't exist

Because god has never been proven

 

[Taylor]

You're not very good at proselytizing. If your goal is to convert people, you should make an effort to be more kind. Didn't Jesus say something about "turning the other cheek?"

My goal isn't to convert people if they don't want to. He asked a question regarding why believers commit suicide despite knowing their sin against God, and I kindly responded with an educated reply. He then perpetually throws it back in my face, insulting me and my faith. No sense in sticking around, trying to get through to someone as bullheaded and childish as that.

 

[Empty Smile]

My goal isn't to convert people if they don't want to. He asked a question regarding why believers commit suicide despite knowing their sin against God, and I kindly responded with an educated reply. He then perpetually throws it back in my face, insulting me and my faith. No sense in sticking around, trying to get through to someone as bullheaded and childish as that.

All you have to do is accept Him and ask for His forgiveness.

Your goal isn't to convert people? Then why do you make this same lame comment in all of your posts? Sounds like you're trying to make people convert.

 

[Deadgirl]

My goal isn't to convert people if they don't want to. He asked a question regarding why believers commit suicide despite knowing their sin against God, and I kindly responded with an educated reply. He then perpetually throws it back in my face, insulting me and my faith. No sense in sticking around, trying to get through to someone as bullheaded and childish as that.

Then why are you lecturing us about christianity and fluffy cloud heaven.

 

[ShadowOfTheDay]

My goal isn't to convert people if they don't want to. He asked a question regarding why believers commit suicide despite knowing their sin against God, and I kindly responded with an educated reply. He then perpetually throws it back in my face, insulting me and my faith. No sense in sticking around, trying to get through to someone as bullheaded and childish as that.

I don't mean to insult your faith, and I definitely don't want to insult you. You seem like a nice dude, and I'm sure it isn't easy to share your beliefs in a place like this. I would just say this: For many people on this forum, death is a very real, and very eminent fact.

That being the case, it is not surprising to me when people get emotional (even combative) when their deepest held beliefs are called into question.

So, maybe that is something worth keeping in mind whenever discussing issues of religion, or the afterlife, etc.

 

[Johnnythefox]

 

[ShadowOfTheDay]

View attachment 11158

No, I disagree. I've personally known many people who are deeply religious, and some of these people were the most selfless, loving people I've known. Religion is bullshit, but most people who believe in religion are just like you and me.

 

[Alan James]

In my childhood I saw a very strange hallucination that I remembered very well. This is the only time in my life when I saw hallucinations (I think that it was my brain that was playing games with me, you shouldn't believe everything your eyes see). Perhaps it might be interesting - I understood where all these stories came from in different cultures.

The following happened: I was 5 or 6 years old, in the evening I went to sleep in my room like usual, I heard my parents watching TV in the next room, lay for 20-30 minutes and couldn't sleep. The room was dark but not completely, at a distance of about 2 meters one could see quite a lot. I definitely didn't sleep, started to get out of bed and felt something strange, incomprehensible feeling and noticed some silhouette in the opposite end of the room. I thought that my mother came into the room and was going to ask what she wanted, was going to open my mouth and froze when I saw that this "I didn't know what" had 2 big horns on his head, this creature slowly came closer to my bed and I saw his head better and I realized that this is definitely not a human. I didn't know what to do, but I was not scared - i was shocked, I didn't expect to see something like that and stood still not knowing what to do and how to react to it. It certainly wasn't some kind of monster or animal, it wasn't scary at all - despite the large upward and backward horns on the head and the fact that it wasn't exactly human, this creature looked beautiful, I probably never saw anyone more beautiful. I kind of felt that this is something very clever and certainly from the "good guys", that I have nothing to fear at all. His head was very similar to how dragons are usually depicted and his horns were like those of a dragon, but his face were very graceful and it had very beautiful eyes. The body had long clothes and some kind of metal equipment and electronic devices - the body itself was hard to see. The clothes were black and from some strange ribbed fabric, like a mixture of fabric and metal, it was very elastic and followed the movements of the body. It was obvious that this creature is not only reasonable - it is much smarter than humans, uses some very advanced technology, there was something magnificent in it, a strange sensation. It just stood and looked at me, I don't know exactly how much time, I didn't notice because I was in shock, my thoughts were "what the hell am I supposed to do?". Then it just disappeared - it is there and after a split second it does not. I jumped out of bed and ran into the room to my parents, I was shaking, I felt very strange, I do not know how to describe it.

It was very similar to what is called "Succubus", and it looked or seemed very beautiful. This is not at all what is said in religions in any case, it is not some demons, evil creatures or stupid monsters (even if it were real) - they use advanced technology and some unusual electronics.

 

[NOT]

Sounds like Quatzelcoatl. Whas it a boy or a girl?

 

[About_to_Go]

No, I disagree. I've personally known many people who are deeply religious, and some of these people were the most selfless, loving people I've known. Religion is bullshit, but most people who believe in religion are just like you and me.

Maybe it would be fairer if it said: "The idea that religious people have that their..." instead of "People who think that their...". I agree with its sentiment though, isn't the act of praying inherently arrogant? You are at least asking God to change his master plan, and possibly even asking for him to choose your prayers over someone else's. Eg. "I pray that my sports team wins this next game" contradicts millions of other people's prayers that the opponent win. A more serious example would be war... if you pray for God's help you're praying for other people to die...

 

[Alan James]

Sounds like Quatzelcoatl. Whas it a boy or a girl?

It seems that this creature was female - it was unusually beautiful (or made such an impression), but it is difficult to say exactly as it was very different from a human. Especially the eyes - they were so beautiful and this was the eyes of a predator (not like human eyes), it seems they were green. On the hands were also some kind of electronic devices, or the hands themselves were artificial. I would like to see this again, yes it is weird but I feel some melancholy when I think about it, I have some strange feeling as if it was someone dear to me, someone very wise and smart, like a relative or friend.

 

[Johnnythefox]

No, I disagree. I've personally known many people who are deeply religious, and some of these people were the most selfless, loving people I've known. Religion is bullshit, but most people who believe in religion are just like you and me.

We'll agree to disagree on that, as a former employee of the largest Christian organisation in my country I encountered some of the most vile specimens in my working life. One member of staff was nice as were some others, but she displayed such rascism it was unbelievable.

A true story from my time there :
This took place while on a break with two other employees. It was a Wednesday, I remember this because T had ashes on his forehead, T is the Catholic.
D was also there, D attended bible study and church each week, D is the protestant.
I'm J the atheist, subjected to a Catholic education.
J to T "what's the central message of Christianity?"
T "I don't know"
J to D "what's the central message of Christianity?"
D "I don't know"
J to D "what do you mean? you attend bible study and church every week"
D "yes"
J to D "don't you listen to what the guy is saying?"
D "not really"
J to D "then what the fuck do you go for?"
D "I just like to be in amongst it"

That answer sums up religion for me, when I asked others the same question they too struggled to answer.

What many fail to realise is that for the majority they are only blindly following the beliefs of their parents.

 

[ShadowOfTheDay]

Maybe it would be fairer if it said: "The idea that religious people have that their..." instead of "People who think that their...". I agree with its sentiment though, isn't the act of praying inherently arrogant? You are at least asking God to change his master plan, and possibly even asking for him to choose your prayers over someone else's. Eg. "I pray that my sports team wins this next game" contradicts millions of other people's prayers that the opponent win. A more serious example would be war... if you pray for God's help you're praying for other people to die...

I guess it depends on what your praying for; if you're praying for your preferred sports team (your example), then of course that's selfish, and arrogant. If you're praying for a sick child, that is not selfish, I don't think. Yeah, it's misguided and anthropogenic, but that's just human nature, I think.

 

[Jean Améry]

I would worry less about proof, and more on getting right with any potential creator of mine and my universe, who offers me eternal salvation. There's no cold, hard, factual evidence or proof that God doesn't exist either, so which would you rather choose? Eternal death or eternal life? Not the awful life that is full of death, suffering, and evil such as this one, but true life. Life that is full of bliss and happiness and free of suffering forever, with the curse of sin and death permanently removed.

Aside from that, you would think that already having Scripture with the supposed literal word of God who makes this promise, that is backed by a religion already followed by millions upon millions of people around the world, would be enough motivation to seek Him, when there is literally nothing of the sort on the other end of the spectrum.

I don't have any evidence disproving the existence of a chinese teapot orbiting Mars and I'm assuming you don't either yet you probably don't believe in such a thing. By your logic we should believe in everything that we can't disprove ergo we should believe in a chinese teapot orbiting Mars. Or flying unicorns, dragons, pixies, Santa Claus, Peter Pan... for that matter.

We've all heard about Pascal's wager. You seem to be forgetting one thing: there are many religions each claiming their god(s) is/are the true god(s) and not believing and worshipping in him/them leads to damnation. How do you/can you know your particular god is the true god? What if you've chosen the wrong god?

What is written in an ancient book does not constitute credible evidence at all. Humans wrote those texts and humans are fallible creatures prone to delusions, wishful thinking and hallucinations. Do you believe in the gods of the Vikings or the ancient Greeks, Allah or the serpent god of the Aztecs? They're all described in ancient texts which seems to be your one and only standard for evidence.

Hitler also had millions of deluded, fanatical followers who committed heinous crimes in his name and were convinced they were doing the right thing: what is your point exactly? You've just committed the fallacy of appeal to popularity.

If you want to believe things that are at the very least highly unlikely and it gives you comfort that's your business but please don't act like an idiot rehashing stupid sophisms that prove exactly nothing. Atheists generally aren't idiots so if you cannot come up with an argument that hasn't been raised countless of times already and refuted countless of times save yourself and us the trouble and keep silent or at least don't pretend you can actually argue your case with any degree of credibility.

There's nothing wrong with believing or faith as such but it's called 'belief' for a reason: if it were in any way, shape or form proveable it would be called factual knowledge.

I have nothing against you personally but this endless droning, cult-like preaching is highly annoying. I suggest to make your own salvation thread singing the praises of Jebus all day if you want instead of littering this forum with your non-informative, irrelevant, annoying 'Jezus saves' BS. We know you're religious and we know you want to save us. If anyone wants to start a bible group with you I'm sure they'll let you know.

I have a few religious friends and they know perfectly well I'm an atheist but at least they don't try to cram their beliefs down my throat every chance they get. Returning the favour I do not try to convince them the whole idea of a god is illogical and theism is plain foolish. Which is probably why we're still friends.

Why Taylor do you insist on being this forum's Jehovah's witness?

The irony is that most of us probably come from a western country or a country heavily influenced by the west and were taught a form of christianity in school and/or church. Yet you seem to think you or the YT-video you keep posting everywhere will teach us anything new. I know what's in the bible as I've read it but it does not convince me in the slightest and neither should it convince any reasonable person who actually values critical thinking, logic and the truth.

 

[ShadowOfTheDay]

Can we please just get back to the original subject? ...which was about selling your soul, or something. I don't even remember.

 

[Johnnythefox]

Can we please just get back to the original subject? ...which was about selling your soul, or something. I don't even remember.

And the OP has not contributed anything since the original post, these types of threads always end up in flame wars, which is the reason I usually avoid them, they are also futile.

 

[Jean Améry]

Can we please just get back to the original subject? ...which was about selling your soul, or something. I don't even remember.

Sure. Unless there is such a thing as a soul you cannot sell it. How do we know souls exist? We don't. The only people claiming this are the religious types but given that their concept of a soul is dependent on the existence of god or a god it would be nice to know whether he actually exists. Which brings us back to the whole Taylor vs. reason debate: no-one can prove god exists and it's highly unreasonable to assume anything we can dream up exists.

We can therefore conclude there is no credible evidence for either god or the existence of a soul hence the whole question is meaningless.

If the OP or anyone wants to play Faust and pretend they can get riches, health, a good life etcetera by offering their 'soul' to the devil (which seems to be a sort of god) they're free to do so. Somehow I don't think it will make even the slightest difference.

 

[Taylor]

I don't mean to insult your faith, and I definitely don't want to insult you. You seem like a nice dude, and I'm sure it isn't easy to share your beliefs in a place like this. I would just say this: For many people on this forum, death is a very real, and very eminent fact.

That being the case, it is not surprising to me when people get emotional (even combative) when their deepest held beliefs are called into question.

So, maybe that is something worth keeping in mind whenever discussing issues of religion, or the afterlife, etc.

Thank you, @ShadowOfTheDay, I feel like you're the only one here open enough to rationalize with and understand where I'm coming from. I definitely see it the same way, which is why I'd rather just stay out of it now. I never professed my faith with the sole intent to convert every non-believer here. Rather, I put it out there for anyone who may be receptive of it, regardless of whether or not their is supporting evidence to confirm it. If it doesn't resonate with you, that's fine and I understand that, I certainly won't force it on you.

As far as evidence is concerned, a friend of mine and fellow Christian here put it this way, which I thought was remarkable:

How can someone with a predisposition to question understand one, simple word: faith? Faith is the answer.

Either have it or don't. Non-believers can't understand the awesome power of being filled with the spirit of Christ or to experience the death of self and symbolism of resurrection with the Holy Ghost as a child of God. To experience the calm of inner peace and salvation as our Savior rights all wrongs, the infinite mercy and love, absolute forgiveness of sins with the most precious gift of eternal life serving He who gave us the very ability to feel such happiness or sadness is the only proof I need. The Alpha and Omega - the beginning that always was and knows no end beyond the realm of human comprehension. To question the Father is to not know Him.

Can we please just get back to the original subject? ...which was about selling your soul, or something. I don't even remember.

 

[ZixivaldYrxes]

If you're here on earth your soul is already sold
What you should be focusing on is taking it back

 

[Deleted member 1768]

I can't sell what doesn't exist unless I become a pastor. Then again, I can get a happy ending at the massage parlor for a small payment.

LOL!!! Love it...smile.

 

[Severen]

Well if someone wants my soul, then obviously, it is something of value so I'd have to say no to that. Especially for a "happy life" for like, what? A pathetic 70 or 80 or 90 years on this Earth? And what if, you get scammed? Anyone here, ever watch the movie, Bedazzled?

If you're here on earth your soul is already sold
What you should be focusing on is taking it back

Yeah, I want my god damn refund.

 

[ExitTheDay]

Just think about all of the celebrities who do "sell their soul" and look how miserable most of them turn out to be? If it is true, having the burden of killing another person for fame & fortune on my shoulders would eventually lead me to heavy drug usage and alcohol and then eventually to an inevitable suicide. I think I'll keep my soul

 

[KnightOfEnceladus]

Why was my post deleted? I don't think it's unfair to say that to someone who's spent a decade and a half doing serious scholarly research into religion, philosophy, apologetics etc. that it's mentally offensive to see people who've done next to none at all spouting dogma as if they have the truth.

 

[Jean Améry]

Why was my post deleted? I don't think it's unfair to say that to someone who's spent a decade and a half doing serious scholarly research into religion, philosophy, apologetics etc. that it's mentally offensive to see people who've done next to none at all spouting dogma as if they have the truth.

I'm afraid it's you who spouted dogma as truth (the existence of souls). Philosophy and logic are not science and cannot prove empirical claims. Which you should know if you studied those fields as thoroughly as you claim. You made an empirical claim with nothing but an argument to authority to support it (I'm so learned and so wise therefore I'm right) and you seem to think you actually made sense.

You also used offensive language: hate, know-nothings... If you want to vent make your own thread and do it there.

It seems you regard assumptions as an actual source of knowledge: you assume souls exist, you assume you know what others' did or what their background is...

The rather juvenile language and haughty attitude in your original post do not strike me as scholarly in the least. It's clear you're not an academic: I've met enough of those to be reasonably sure. Granted it's an assumption aswell but a reasonable one. Even if you were it does not make your word the gospel and it does not give you the right to break the rules.

If you disagree feel free to argue with the mods: I'm sure your scholarly mind, cutting dialectics and superior rhetorical skills will win the day so we'll be able to enjoy your temper tantrums all day long.