Self hatred is narcissistic

[maylurker]

Sorry but it's my genuine opinion and I don't give a fuck about this forum enough to waste my time ragebaiting anyone.

alright then thats a wild oversimplification. people dont choose to do this its a symptom of mdd/bpd/ptsd that makes it hard to focus on anything else. basically ur cognition is fucked and hyperfocused on perceived flaws as a maladaptive coping thing. calling it narcissistic ignores how actual narcissism involves grandiosity and lack of empathy and not beating yourself down 24/7. telling someone drowning in that to think about more important things is like telling a paralyzed dude to just walk it off lol it dismisses actual neurochemical and cognitive pathology as vanity

 

[martyrdom]

alright then thats a wild oversimplification. people dont choose to do this its a symptom of mdd/bpd/ptsd that makes it hard to focus on anything else. basically ur cognition is fucked and hyperfocused on perceived flaws as a maladaptive coping thing. calling it narcissistic ignores how actual narcissism involves grandiosity and lack of empathy and not beating yourself down 24/7. telling someone drowning in that to think about more important things is like telling a paralyzed dude to just walk it off lol it dismisses actual neurochemical and cognitive pathology as vanity

That's not what I'm saying at all though. I'm also not referring to the pathology of narcissism nor am I claiming that anyone who suffers from those things has NPD, I'm using the word 'narcissistic' as a synonym for self-centered, egocentric, etc, as it's often used colloquially (even so, from what I've read on NPD, it also involves quite a lot of self hatred). I'm not telling anyone to "think about more important things" or that they can just stop hating themselves. Sometimes there are very valid reasons to hate yourself, sometimes there are very serious disorders and pathologies that cause the self hatred, sometimes there is neither and it's just a byproduct of low self esteem. Being egocentric or self-centered doesn't make you ontologically evil in some way. Egocentricism isn't necessarily vanity either, it encompasses a lot of things. Overcoming self hatred obviously necessitates a lot of therapy, medication, positive life experiences, positive environment - you can't just turn it off. It's still something fundamentally egocentric though.

 

[maylurker]

That's not what I'm saying at all though. I'm also not referring to the pathology of narcissism nor am I claiming that anyone who suffers from those things has NPD, I'm using the word 'narcissistic' as a synonym for self-centered, egocentric, etc, as it's often used colloquially (even so, from what I've read on NPD, it also involves quite a lot of self hatred). I'm not telling anyone to "think about more important things" or that they can just stop hating themselves. Sometimes there are very valid reasons to hate yourself, sometimes there are very serious disorders and pathologies that cause the self hatred, sometimes there is neither and it's just a byproduct of low self esteem. Being egocentric or self-centered doesn't make you ontologically evil in some way. Egocentricism isn't necessarily vanity either, it encompasses a lot of things. Overcoming self hatred obviously necessitates a lot of therapy, medication, positive life experiences, positive environment - you can't just turn it off. It's still something fundamentally egocentric though.

ok u using 'narcissistic' colloquially to mean 'self-centered,' and u explicitly not blaming anyone or saying they can snap out of it. so still observation is 'when your brain is stuck in a loop of self-hatred caused by trauma or illness, ur focused on yourself.' yeah no shit. thats like saying 'when someone has a migraine their attention is focused on head pain.' its true by definition but it doesn't actually tell us anything useful about the experience the mechanism or how to relate to people going through it.
framing pathological rumination as 'egocentric' still carries an implicit moral tint and evokes selfishness and vanity even if you say it doesnt. that framing can make sufferers feel even worse because now on top of the original pain they get the message that their torment is a form of self-absorption. the attention isnt egocentric in the usual sense (self-important, self-protective), its a hijacking. calling it 'fundamentally egocentric' obscures that hijacking and recenters the conversation on a superficial trait rather than the underlying breakdown.

 

[martyrdom]

so still observation is 'when your brain is stuck in a loop of self-hatred caused by trauma or illness, ur focused on yourself.'

Where it's a genuine symptom, a thought-loop, a compulsion, etc, I don't consider it the same, so you're totally right about that in most cases. But there are quite a lot of people who are so self-indulgent in their self hatred and their constant focus on themselves that I consider it egocentric in the same way I consider a borderline who makes no effort to regulate their emotions or their symptoms selfish or a depressed person who becomes so myopic in their misery that they become cruel and inconsiderate and so on and so forth. Everyone with a mental illness is responsible for managing their symptoms, if for no other reason than to avoid becoming hurtful to others.

framing pathological rumination as 'egocentric' still carries an implicit moral tint and evokes selfishness and vanity even if you say it doesnt

I believe it becomes a moral failing only when it causes you to treat others around you badly. I'm not exempt from that either (I don't hate myself - nor do I like myself, I'm apathetic to myself - but I have severe PTSD and I've hurt my loved ones quite a lot as a result).

that framing can make sufferers feel even worse because now on top of the original pain they get the message that their torment is a form of self-absorption. the attention isnt egocentric in the usual sense (self-important, self-protective), its a hijacking. calling it 'fundamentally egocentric' obscures that hijacking and recenters the conversation on a superficial trait rather than the underlying breakdown.

In the way I've voiced it, yes, it's callous and can easily make others feel worse (which I really don't care about because I'm not Mother Theresa, I have my own problems, and I don't like most people here - here's one example of egocentricism as I described in my first paragraph). In the way OP voiced it though, I think it can be helpful because it reframes the management of self hatred - most people believe that you should unconditionally love yourself and have to fake self love or pressure yourself into toxic positivity in order to overcome it, but I think trying to achieve humility & self-indifference and focusing on fruitful and fulfilling things in life rather than your view of yourself or your worth as a person (as part of an exhaustive recovery and therapeutic process, not "just stop hating yourself lol just think of other things") can be far more productive as well as realistic. It's the same underlying principle of body neutrality rather than body positivity.

 

[maylurker]

Where it's a genuine symptom, a thought-loop, a compulsion, etc, I don't consider it the same, so you're totally right about that in most cases. But there are quite a lot of people who are so self-indulgent in their self hatred and their constant focus on themselves that I consider it egocentric in the same way I consider a borderline who makes no effort to regulate their emotions or their symptoms selfish or a depressed person who becomes so myopic in their misery that they become cruel and inconsiderate and so on and so forth. Everyone with a mental illness is responsible for managing their symptoms, if for no other reason than to avoid becoming hurtful to others.


I believe it becomes a moral failing only when it causes you to treat others around you badly. I'm not exempt from that either (I don't hate myself - nor do I like myself, I'm apathetic to myself - but I have severe PTSD and I've hurt my loved ones quite a lot as a result).


In the way I've voiced it, yes, it's callous and can easily make others feel worse (which I really don't care about because I'm not Mother Theresa, I have my own problems, and I don't like most people here - here's one example of egocentricism as I described in my first paragraph). In the way OP voiced it though, I think it can be helpful because it reframes the management of self hatred - most people believe that you should unconditionally love yourself and have to fake self love or pressure yourself into toxic positivity in order to overcome it, but I think trying to achieve humility & self-indifference and focusing on fruitful and fulfilling things in life rather than your view of yourself or your worth as a person (as part of an exhaustive recovery and therapeutic process, not "just stop hating yourself lol just think of other things") can be far more productive as well as realistic. It's the same underlying principle of body neutrality rather than body positivity.

i agree with your points about some people do get self-indulgent in their self-hatred and toxic positivity. its good for some people to acknowledge it although i was just clarifying about overall mental health struggles and oversimplification because people often confuse consequence with cause