Discussion Plandemic 2 - Can we have a respectful discussion?

[esse_est_percipi]

Zuckerberg's in the news this week warning Americans that the results of the election will be "days and weeks" after Election Day. Mr. Social Media is now an election expert!? As a platform for targetted advertising, Facebook and its CEO should really be anywhere but in the centre of that conversation.

 

[StateOfMind]

This is the only conspiracy I'm really interested in at the moment since Ive been subjected to this madness for at least 4 years now.. truly amazing how this seems to be going under the radar of most of the population.

What is “gang stalking?”

Contents 1. A brief explanation of “gang stalking”2. America’s “deep state”3. Crimes by U.S. law enforcement & intelligence agencies4. Oversight of law enforcement & i…

fightgangstalking.com

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Okay so hear me out. This interview was from right before the pandemic really took off...


Now tell me 2020 hasn't all been as a result of what this guy said.

 

[GarageKarate07]

I'm dropping both of these in cv related threads. That way they "have a place" and hopefully nobody will become "upset". Don't get me wrong I dont give 2 shits if someone gets upset or not. I'm not doing it to "hurt any feelings", I'm doing it in a genuine effort to help because I honestly give a shit about you all very very much. I don't care about your views. I see deeper into people than what thier personal views are. My point here is that I've been trying to learn as much as I can about where we actually are and what is going on and why and who is causing it because I feel that knowledge will help me to better understand where I'm going to go wether I CTB tonight or die of natural causes in a few years. These guys talk about subjects from 911 to the Vatican to Flat Earth. You would be amazed at how much you don't realize about your own world simply because you didn't look into it. Just because you didn't look doesn't mean it's not true. Learning you have been lied to hurts. It always will. Being strong enough to face that pain just like living through the other hurtful events in your life can be good for you. It takes strength to realize things are not always what they seem. Remember that we are not the only ones "hurt" here. All of us are hurt and that's why we end up getting abused neglected and so on. It doesn't make the pain any easier but it can help put it in a higher perspective. ❤

There are a series of 5 parts of this one.


/

This is an example of people fighting back when they are told they should not

https://www.bitchute.com/video/OjeAxEMevQdg
/

On another note FB YT and many others have not allowed this type of info on thier platforms. A few platforms have tsken a stand against actually preserving freedom of speech. The only thing we seem to have left at this point!

I do enjoy a good conspiracy theory but I don't debate them like I used to anymore. I call them conspiracy facts now because alot of "far fetched" theories of old are common knowledge and accepted reality now.

The "elite" have a saying of never let a tragedy/disaster go to waste. This also ties into the Hegelian Dialectics that they've used to control us for so long now. So of course they've lied about Covid and used it to their benefit.

Hey I left this post with the vids attached for you. I saw you arguing with another user this morning. I dont know if the argument was this morning thats just when I saw the post. They are both good videos by people who are tired of the lies and be. Its hard to take in new info for some people. Anyway, I hope it helps a few in this group who happen across them. I mean what are we all going to do with our freetime anyway? Try to get our methods right? Eat junk food? Decend into our usual self destroying habits (I like sugar and smoking way too much)? Might as well learn something new.... ❤

 

[StateOfMind]

Didn't look into all the pages so not sure if it's been posted.
If you are interested in covid consps look into "the great reset".

 

[Kat!]

China took advantage of this virus for sure. As for it being a biological-warfare type weapon.. I can't say.
The US has pretty great intelligence links and has spent a long time studying these types of things, whether or not they'd be a planned attack on our infrastructure or not.

It seems as if this was just a really badly timed pandemic.
I'd rule this off as natural, but after this wraps up, we have to make China pay. Their health standards are absolutely disgusting, and it seems every decade there's another virus outbreak from their farms.

 

[Sherri]

Here we are going on full lockdown after tomorrow.

 

[GarageKarate07]

Here we are going on full lockdown after tomorrow.

Which country

 

[Sherri]

My country's economy will be forever ruined after tomorrow's undetermined full lockdown

 

[Good4Nothing]

I don't understand the social manipulation aspect of the conspiracy theory.
Facial recognition is finally a reality.
What do governments gain by having everyone wear masks that obscure their identity?

 

[BluesRunTheGame]

Zuckerberg's in the news this week warning Americans that the results of the election will be "days and weeks" after Election Day. Mr. Social Media is now an election expert!?

Damn just saw this post from 9th September!

 

[Deleted member 18655]

Damn just saw this post from 9th September!

I've been listening to Monica Perez (Propaganda Report) and she made that prediction months ago. Wild, eh?!

 

[Kat!]

Doesn't surprise me.

Sometime around the 50's the News became entertainment. Who did it? I don't know, but I hope they're in hell.
Could be a CIA psy-op for all I know lol, MK Ultra type shit.

 

[ohhgeeitsme]

I think both sides have been able to make convincing arguments, therefore I'm going to continue to question both until one is fact.
I will say though, I don't really buy into it being a complete conspiracy, but I can totally buy into people taking advantage of it because that is human nature.
By the way, my grandma just died two days after Christmas from covid. My sister had it. I have a friend who got it months ago and is still having terrible chest pains and heart problems, when he never did before. But I guess these cases aren't real.

Yes, I'm going to continue to wear a mask. I don't care if people think I'm a sheep or whatever they want to think. They can't pressure me into not wearing one by calling me that or scaring me into think I'm giving up my freedom simply because I want to be considerate of other people. They don't realize that just because they see it as one thing, doesn't make it a reality. They are projecting THEIR fears onto me. Fears that may or may not be real, no matter how much they believe them. They don't really know what's going on, and neither do I. Watching a few videos with ideas you are already likely to believe, even with seemingly credible sources, does not mean you're right. I've watched videos and have read arguments from sides and it's very easy to believe both, just depending on which one you want to believe and the way your own mind works.

In short, I don't know. I'm still questioning all sides, like I question every piece of information given to me. I guess I am paranoid in that respect.

 

[Kat!]

I think both sides have been able to make convincing arguments, therefore I'm going to continue to question both until one is fact.
I will say though, I don't really buy into it being a complete conspiracy, but I can totally buy into people taking advantage of it because that is human nature.
By the way, my grandma just died two days after Christmas from covid. My sister had it. I have a friend who got it months ago and is still having terrible chest pains and heart problems, when he never did before. But I guess these cases aren't real.

Yes, I'm going to continue to wear a mask. I don't care if people think I'm a sheep or whatever they want to think. They can't pressure me into not wearing one by calling me that or scaring me into think I'm giving up my freedom simply because I want to be considerate of other people. They don't realize that just because they see it as one thing, doesn't make it a reality. They are projecting THEIR fears onto me. Fears that may or may not be real, no matter how much they believe them. They don't really know what's going on, and neither do I. Watching a few videos with ideas you are already likely to believe, even with seemingly credible sources, does not mean you're right. I've watched videos and have read arguments from sides and it's very easy to believe both, just depending on which one you want to believe and the way your own mind works.

In short, I don't know. I'm still questioning all sides, like I question every piece of information given to me. I guess I am paranoid in that respect.

Yeah. There's no doubting it's real, and for me, I'm going to continue wearing a mask.
Sure I may be a sheep as well but it's better than getting kicked out for getting groceries without one.

 

[GarageKarate07]

Doesn't surprise me.

Sometime around the 50's the News became entertainment. Who did it? I don't know, but I hope they're in hell.
Could be a CIA psy-op for all I know lol, MK Ultra type shit.

MK Ultra? You mean the thing with the butterflies!? No that cant be a real thing! Lol!

Well, that was... bonkers.
Thanks, I guess?

When You graduate you wear the black hat of Saturn. Thus claiming your rite of passage. Obelisks all over our governments buildings. As well as snakes $ and occultic symbols. Can you explain the back of a dollar bill? Would you know if you were in a cult? The answer is no because these things are very very subtle to average people.

 

[Nodscene]

My apologies for not reading this whole thread or watching the video.

To me this is just scare tactics and another way for big pharma to make more money.

Right from the start all borders should have been closed anytime a potential legitimate pandemic is lose in the wild. All planes out of China should have been grounded immediately and I would have suggested it for all other countries as well. Anyone that was on a flight during the shutdown should have been put into quarantine for 14 days full stop.

As the virus was known about a good month and if memory serves a couple months before that. Had everything shut down at the first signs this pandemic would have been over and under control within a few months instead of a year plus.

It's not rocket science and it is protocol for USAMRID and the CDC. The interesting questions start when you ask why this wasn't done. Normally you follow the money, while it's going to be a massive blow to the world economy it also means that certain people are going to become disgustingly richer. Usually it's those who already have too much money.

This is a coronavirus meaning it's basically non-lethal. I just checked the US numbers last week and the death rate is 1.7% which is flu territory. The only real concern about letting any virus run rampage through the population is when it mutates as that can't be controlled or foreseen. It can also lead to a much deadlier virus that could cause some real problems.

As for other thoughts, this is a great trial run for governments on how the population will react, how to manage the situation, and how to leverage it to suit their own needs. While this may be a bit out there for most people, it wouldn't surprise me if a government either released this on purpose or at minimum it gives them the data to create and release their own. Pandemics give governments full control of everything (think Martial Law).

There are a lot of aspects of every day life, like how the government is run, population control, police enforcement etc. It has long tendrils that impact almost all aspects of how our world is run. If you don't think that big data isn't crunching the numbers and finding information that could be used in a nefarious way that was never even thought of before I'd honestly be surprised.

Knowledge is power and they now have data on everything from how countries react, how people deal with these kinds of situations, where money is spent, how people move and handle long term restrictions and confinements on their freedom etc etc. It's endless.

Obviously I don't trust the governments (research false flags) and don't think they have our best interest at heart anymore. They aren't really in control anymore (big commerce is....just look to see who is in charge of things like the FDA, the Ministry of the Environment etc etc and you will see that they are all now the lobbyists from big agriculture, big oil et al). What this has left us is the people who once CEO' for the oil companies are now in charge of the government agencies that are supposed to have oversight on these companies. How do you think that's going to work out haha.

Back to the virus, it could be the start of a slow and controlled plan to manipulate the population by governments more than what they are doing now. It could be another way to bring a new revenue stream to vaccine makers. It could be benign.

At this point the crazies are running the insane asylum so who the hell knows what this means, if it's means anything, or where it may or may not lead.

 

[Good4Nothing]

MK Ultra? You mean the thing with the butterflies!? No that cant be a real thing! Lol!View attachment 58360View attachment 58361View attachment 58362

When You graduate you wear the black hat of Saturn. Thus claiming your rite of passage. Obelisks all over our governments buildings. As well as snakes $ and occultic symbols. Can you explain the back of a dollar bill? Would you know if you were in a cult? The answer is no because these things are very very subtle to average people.

Ridiculous.

 

[MrBlue]

I think conspiracy theories give people WAY too much credit, and the idea that COVID-19 isn't as bad as the 1.97million reported deaths show it is, or was planned, is no exception imo. There isn't secret cabals of hypercompetent people manufacturing chaos that happen to believe in the precise opposite of whoever believes 'they' exist, just bunch of divided, imcompetent, selfish fuckwits who make shitty decisions for stupid reasons.

The people that have benefited the most from the pandemic, billionaires, are simply too rich to feel the effects themselves and actively put people in danger for their own, INDIVIDUAL gain. The virus is hurting almost all organisations, including governments, because the economy is tanking and people are scrutinising everything they do more. Plus it isn't the people in charge that are suggesting rescrictions, but hundreds of scientists that get paid shit all and don't benefit whatsoever.

 

[GarageKarate07]

My apologies for not reading this whole thread or watching the video.

To me this is just scare tactics and another way for big pharma to make more money.

Right from the start all borders should have been closed anytime a potential legitimate pandemic is lose in the wild. All planes out of China should have been grounded immediately and I would have suggested it for all other countries as well. Anyone that was on a flight during the shutdown should have been put into quarantine for 14 days full stop.

As the virus was known about a good month and if memory serves a couple months before that. Had everything shut down at the first signs this pandemic would have been over and under control within a few months instead of a year plus.

It's not rocket science and it is protocol for USAMRID and the CDC. The interesting questions start when you ask why this wasn't done. Normally you follow the money, while it's going to be a massive blow to the world economy it also means that certain people are going to become disgustingly richer. Usually it's those who already have too much money.

This is a coronavirus meaning it's basically non-lethal. I just checked the US numbers last week and the death rate is 1.7% which is flu territory. The only real concern about letting any virus run rampage through the population is when it mutates as that can't be controlled or foreseen. It can also lead to a much deadlier virus that could cause some real problems.

As for other thoughts, this is a great trial run for governments on how the population will react, how to manage the situation, and how to leverage it to suit their own needs. While this may be a bit out there for most people, it wouldn't surprise me if a government either released this on purpose or at minimum it gives them the data to create and release their own. Pandemics give governments full control of everything (think Martial Law).

There are a lot of aspects of every day life, like how the government is run, population control, police enforcement etc. It has long tendrils that impact almost all aspects of how our world is run. If you don't think that big data isn't crunching the numbers and finding information that could be used in a nefarious way that was never even thought of before I'd honestly be surprised.

Knowledge is power and they now have data on everything from how countries react, how people deal with these kinds of situations, where money is spent, how people move and handle long term restrictions and confinements on their freedom etc etc. It's endless.

Obviously I don't trust the governments (research false flags) and don't think they have our best interest at heart anymore. They aren't really in control anymore (big commerce is....just look to see who is in charge of things like the FDA, the Ministry of the Environment etc etc and you will see that they are all now the lobbyists from big agriculture, big oil et al). What this has left us is the people who once CEO' for the oil companies are now in charge of the government agencies that are supposed to have oversight on these companies. How do you think that's going to work out haha.

Back to the virus, it could be the start of a slow and controlled plan to manipulate the population by governments more than what they are doing now. It could be another way to bring a new revenue stream to vaccine makers. It could be benign.

At this point the crazies are running the insane asylum so who the hell knows what this means, if it's means anything, or where it may or may no

My apologies for not reading this whole thread or watching the video.

To me this is just scare tactics and another way for big pharma to make more money.

Right from the start all borders should have been closed anytime a potential legitimate pandemic is lose in the wild. All planes out of China should have been grounded immediately and I would have suggested it for all other countries as well. Anyone that was on a flight during the shutdown should have been put into quarantine for 14 days full stop.

As the virus was known about a good month and if memory serves a couple months before that. Had everything shut down at the first signs this pandemic would have been over and under control within a few months instead of a year plus.

It's not rocket science and it is protocol for USAMRID and the CDC. The interesting questions start when you ask why this wasn't done. Normally you follow the money, while it's going to be a massive blow to the world economy it also means that certain people are going to become disgustingly richer. Usually it's those who already have too much money.

This is a coronavirus meaning it's basically non-lethal. I just checked the US numbers last week and the death rate is 1.7% which is flu territory. The only real concern about letting any virus run rampage through the population is when it mutates as that can't be controlled or foreseen. It can also lead to a much deadlier virus that could cause some real problems.

As for other thoughts, this is a great trial run for governments on how the population will react, how to manage the situation, and how to leverage it to suit their own needs. While this may be a bit out there for most people, it wouldn't surprise me if a government either released this on purpose or at minimum it gives them the data to create and release their own. Pandemics give governments full control of everything (think Martial Law).

There are a lot of aspects of every day life, like how the government is run, population control, police enforcement etc. It has long tendrils that impact almost all aspects of how our world is run. If you don't think that big data isn't crunching the numbers and finding information that could be used in a nefarious way that was never even thought of before I'd honestly be surprised.

Knowledge is power and they now have data on everything from how countries react, how people deal with these kinds of situations, where money is spent, how people move and handle long term restrictions and confinements on their freedom etc etc. It's endless.

Obviously I don't trust the governments (research false flags) and don't think they have our best interest at heart anymore. They aren't really in control anymore (big commerce is....just look to see who is in charge of things like the FDA, the Ministry of the Environment etc etc and you will see that they are all now the lobbyists from big agriculture, big oil et al). What this has left us is the people who once CEO' for the oil companies are now in charge of the government agencies that are supposed to have oversight on these companies. How do you think that's going to work out haha.

Back to the virus, it could be the start of a slow and controlled plan to manipulate the population by governments more than what they are doing now. It could be another way to bring a new revenue stream to vaccine makers. It could be benign.

At this point the crazies are running the insane asylum so who the hell knows what this means, if it's means anything, or where it may or may not lead.

"They" have lied to us before. Over and over about everything. Point blank.

 

[Kat!]

This pandemic wouldn't have been so bad if China didn't lie, and Trump actually did something.
WHO and the CDC need to step their shit up too. Literally got bullied by the CCP lol.

 

[GarageKarate07]

I think conspiracy theories give people WAY too much credit, and the idea that COVID-19 isn't as bad as the 1.97million reported deaths show it is, or was planned, is no exception imo. There isn't secret cabals of hypercompetent people manufacturing chaos that happen to believe in the precise opposite of whoever believes 'they' exist, just bunch of divided, imcompetent, selfish fuckwits who make shitty decisions for stupid reasons.

The people that have benefited the most from the pandemic, billionaires, are simply too rich to feel the effects themselves and actively put people in danger for their own, INDIVIDUAL gain. The virus is hurting almost all organisations, including governments, because the economy is tanking and people are scrutinising everything they do more. Plus it isn't the people in charge that are suggesting rescrictions, but hundreds of scientists that get paid shit all and don't benefit whatsoever.

Who said there were deaths AND that the tests were "accurate"? "They" did. Who said the doctors and the "experts" we hear from are not bought out? "They" did. Here's a vid from doctors , who against scrutiny, went out and have publicly put forward a position of absolute contest against the "accepted" position of the almighty "experts". They did so with rifles pointed at them on the queens turf.


/

Ridiculous.

Study Led by D.A. Henderson — The Man Who Eradicated Smallpox — Found Draconian Lockdowns for Flu Pandemics Ineffective and Even Destructive​

Smallpox? Did you cure smallpox?

Study Led by D.A. Henderson -- The Man Who Eradicated Smallpox -- Found Draconian Lockdowns for Flu Pandemics Ineffective and Even Destructive | The Gateway Pundit | by Jim Hoft

D.

www.thegatewaypundit.com

 

[MrBlue]

Who said there were deaths AND that the tests were "accurate"?

The millions of loved ones that were left behind after said deaths, including thousands of deaths by people who denied COVID is a real thing (because they are more likely to put themselves and their loved ones at risk).
Explaining how accurate testing is more complicated. This depends on the method used. More rapid methods have been proven to be less accurate than others like Molecular testing. PCR detection (a molecular method) has been estimated since it's discovery in 1985 to have a false positve rate up to 20%, so out 90.2million cases reported worldwide, that's up to 18.4m. However the logistical imposiblity of testing an entire population, and many people's refusal to get tested would likely make up for that false positive chance, and then some.
The accuracy of COVID tests aren't 100% certain, true, but like all science, this isn't happening in a vacuum and the international scientific community is constantly collecting more information and scrutinising and reviewing each others work.

Who said the doctors and the "experts" we hear from are not bought out?

While this can happen, there are literally hundreds of laboratories worldwide (which is partly why accuracy in less countries with looser standards can be an issue) and sometimes hundreds of people collaborating within a single lab. For every one scientist that conveys their findings to the public, their are countless of men and women uncredited behind them. To buy off so many people is very unlikely.

 

[MrBlue]

Here's a vid from doctor

Dr Kaufmann is the only Doctor I know of that come forward like this, and there is alot to unpack with what he says. He often mentions something vaguely true, and then uses that to make very wild, unsubstantiated claims.
For one, Kaufmann's area of study is forensic psychology, not microbiology, genetics or any field relevant to understanding the pandemic, and his resident training licence was revoked for taking money intended for a study in 2012 and using it for personal use. His claim that the genetical material that is tested for is actually exosomes or 'soup' is untrue, the test is specific to COVID viruses. He also claims that technology has been the main cause of pandemics throughout history, forgetting the black death.

Henderson is more of a respectable source. Though his main issues outlined in his paper seem to be the logistical and practical considerations of restrictions in disease mitigation. He approves of wearing masks, improved hygiene and the concerns over the time to manufacture vaccination in a pandemic, and his main gripe with isolation and shutting down services seems to be how many will disregard the rules put in place and the long term effects it will have on people's mental health (which is a major concern for those that approve of the lockdown as well). His recomendation to ride it out and let people people die off seems rather unethical, especially given the clear corralation between large gatherings, COVID cases and subsequent deaths.

 

[Nodscene]

I think conspiracy theories give people WAY too much credit, and the idea that COVID-19 isn't as bad as the 1.97million reported deaths show it is, or was planned, is no exception imo. There isn't secret cabals of hypercompetent people manufacturing chaos that happen to believe in the precise opposite of whoever believes 'they' exist, just bunch of divided, imcompetent, selfish fuckwits who make shitty decisions for stupid reasons.

The people that have benefited the most from the pandemic, billionaires, are simply too rich to feel the effects themselves and actively put people in danger for their own, INDIVIDUAL gain. The virus is hurting almost all organisations, including governments, because the economy is tanking and people are scrutinising everything they do more. Plus it isn't the people in charge that are suggesting rescrictions, but hundreds of scientists that get paid shit all and don't benefit whatsoever.

I think you under estimate what the government and massive cooperations can actually accomplish. Especially when you compartmentalise information.

Just a couple examples for your amusement and just so happen to have happened. While I enjoy a good conspiracy I'm the type that needs evidence to back it up.

False Flag OPs, click


I understand that it's not easy to think anyone is going to make any money off this situation but you might be surprised.

USA Today Money Makers click

I can keep adding stuff if you want.

Also don't forget that you can short change a piece of property (company) by betting that the company wiil decrease in value than it did before the pandemic! If they had more people in the oval office, then they will have a champion with that look

 

[Disappointered]

There are many medical doctors and research scientists who've objected to how the plandemic has been handled and there are some who object to the use of the PCR tests.

I definitely believe it is part of a much larger plan and that whatever the - until now hardly lethal - virus is, it was leaked intentionally last year. The Great Reset book is alone enough to convince me of that but in any case I believe it is irrational not to believe in conspiracies.

 

[Circles]

I remembered this thread so hope no one minds but given recent shit. Honestly it's weird looking back people didn't want to believe that COVID couldn't be a biological weapon but the timing is too much of a coincidence. Look at what their planning to do with Taiwan right now and I'm sure there is way more to it than just that like spreading totalitarianism across western countries and I'm sure the rest of the world, destroying democracy or whatever semblance it ever had, destroying freedom of speech, spreading communism, and so on and on. And sure our governments aren't helping with the problems either but China should be seen as much as the enemy.

 

[NotStrongEnough]

I'm sure there is way more to it than just that like spreading totalitarianism across western countries and I'm sure the rest of the world, destroying democracy or whatever semblance it ever had, destroying freedom of speech, spreading communism, and so on and on.

None of this is happening. I've been hearing that "communism" and "Socialism" are coming to the US for far longer than COVID and it hasn't happened yet. Communism and socialism are nothing more than scare words used to keep people scared of the government. That's it. The government isn't out to get you - it wouldn't be in their best interests.

Occam's razor applies to most things in life, COVID and the government are not exempt from that.

 

[Circles]

None of this is happening. I've been hearing that "communism" and "Socialism" are coming to the US for far longer than COVID and it hasn't happened yet. Communism and socialism are nothing more than scare words used to keep people scared of the government. That's it. The government isn't out to get you - it wouldn't be in their best interests.

Occam's razor applies to most things in life, COVID and the government are not exempt from that.

Let's agree to disagree then. It's called divide and conquer and China or Russia are trying to their best to sow dissent in Western countries and spreading dangerous outdated ideologies. It's called the multipolar power theory for a reason whenever a dominant superpower is falling (ie US) then other potential powers come in to take advantage. Governments abroad and at home are out to get us no matter what and take away as much of our so called freedoms and freedom of speech/movement cause they love control. And bottom line is that's what governments do: CONTROL.

Ultimately COVID is an just excuse for totalitarianism to come. Just look at Australia they're already a police state. But hey that's just my lowly opinion.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

None of this is happening. I've been hearing that "communism" and "Socialism" are coming to the US for far longer than COVID and it hasn't happened yet. Communism and socialism are nothing more than scare words used to keep people scared of the government. That's it. The government isn't out to get you - it wouldn't be in their best interests.

Occam's razor applies to most things in life, COVID and the government are not exempt from that.

I live in the Silicon Valley in California. Communism and socialism are not only acceptable there, they are the established norm and anyone under 40 has to conform to loving them or risk being ostracized. Give it a few more decades if you must for the country as a whole to start accepting them but I feel like Hollywood is also doing its best to make people more comfortable with these ideals and I sure as shit don't want to be alive when that happens. If it works out for everyone else though then great.

Though I think in my opinion that the US doesn't really need China or Russia's help to trend this way. China itself is more about taking bits from the worst parts of both capitalism and communism anyway. China cares more about being authoritarian no matter what system it requires to accomplish this.