Discussion Pity the "Pro-Death"

[derpyderpins]

i don't understand why people on this site find negativity of users to be so polarising. people want to die here, severely depressed or with other issues. or did you forget where you logged in? they will say negative, depressing things. it isn't fair to say "oh that brought me down, therefore this shouldn't be said" as long as it's not discriminatory against any group of people. just move on and don't pay attention, i don't like this constant dissection of what not to say on this forum. it's just for people to vent, find methods, etc. not a social media where a certain culture is cultivated and should be upkept, if you don't like something and it's not hurting anyone, just move on. people are hurting here, it's not a topic for an essay or judgement.

Sorry that you disapprove. It has been a minute since I wrote this but if I didn't make it clear enough I didn't think anyone should be told not to say something. I hope you would agree, even though you don't approve of this content.

I am very aware of where we are and I think people should be allowed to vent their darkest, most negative thoughts. This post is focused on recovery (hence it is in the recovery section) and explains that those negative thoughts come from a place of pain. It also focuses specifically on speech that is "discriminatory against any group of people." Eg, "if you have a job you're a cuck slave," "if you love anyone you're a brainwashed normie," "all parents are evil." I thought I had tried to make that distinction clear, but I apologize if I unintentionally attacked negativity generally.

The content I'm discussing is hurting people, as generalized insults discourage people in the generalized groups from participating.

Thank you for the feedback, though. I'm glad you didn't take your own advice of not paying attention and moving on. I'll try to be more clear as I continue working on my recovery materials.

 

[Tesha]

I'm really rather annoyed that I hadn't read this post before now.

Well considered and thought out. Thank you for taking the time to express your views, much of which I agree with.

I've been banging my head against a pro-death wall in real life recently; in an attempt to support someone who's internally struggling. I'm going to step back, make myself a stereotypical British cup of tea and reevaluate.

 

[fkyou]

Did you recover from your inceldom

 

[eden101]

i just think such negativity is expected here, and we shouldnt take it so personally. unless its actual hatred, then ok, thats bad (by that i meant discrimination with a capital d, you know, like racism, sexism and the like). and i think that i can also flip it and say - sometimes, knowing that your post will be called too negative, people will pick apart and psychoanalyse under the post as to why the poster is as negative as they are, and say they are responsible for hurting them - that discourages people from posting in a way they'd find helpful too. so two sides. however i agree that some people word their posts in a very cruel manner, imo is a result of being very online and not very empathetic. that poster wouldve talked like that wether they'd be hurting or suffering or not, its just a type of person that blossoms in the online space. i didnt mean that i was mad by my previous reply btw. i find it a bit hard to read lately due to an incorrect lens prescription, so maybe i misread some parts. sorry <3

 

[ImTelling]

I don't know, I think certain people here making fun of incels is the pot calling the kettle black. You'll get over it eventually.

 

[Deleted member 8119]

i don't understand why people on this site find negativity of users to be so polarising

Because they usually attacked members who disagreed with them.

 

[ImTelling]

Because they usually attacked members who disagreed with them.

Looks like a cope and smells like a cope. Negativity is the honest emotion. Hatred is central to everything. If you do not hate, your love is meaningless. Talk to anyone and if they say they "love everyone" they're looking to fuck you up or someone. It's been pre planned. Don't reply to this.

 

[Deleted member 8119]

??????????????????????????

 

[Hvergelmir]

Looks like a cope and smells like a cope. Negativity is the honest emotion. Hatred is central to everything. If you do not hate, your love is meaningless. Talk to anyone and if they say they "love everyone" they're looking to fuck you up or someone. It's been pre planned. Don't reply to this.

They're most certainly skewing the meaning of "love" or deluding themselves. But claiming that any and all proclamation of universal love is some kind of plot, is just conspiratorial.
It's actually quite common for people to be sincere in their attempt to be loving and grateful.

If you do not hate, your love is meaningless.

What kind of hate do I need to validate that, and who should I hate? Is it enough to hate people from my past, or do they have to be related to what/whom I love?
I can see hate proving love, in the face of strife. I can't see it as a necessary part of harmonious relations, though.

 

[MelancholyMagic]

Good grief. The original post and nearly all the comments are in opposition to the pro-mortal position. Where are all these "pro-death" people you speak of? The problem is not that there are too many, but that there are too few.

Pro-Death negativity: "life is objectively horrible. Being happy doesn't make sense. I don't enjoy anything, and no one could enjoy anything unless they're deluded. I want ctb, and people who don't want ctb are stupid sheeple."

Pro-mortalists recognize that people sometimes enjoy themselves. It's just that this enjoyment is outweighed by the benefits of death. People who do not want to CTB aren't "sheeple", but they are beholden to their survival instinct, and not rationality.

Work is slavery:

This is just one example of how bad we all have it. There is nothing particularly bad about work; it is merely emblematic of the awfulness of living.

this is an ideology of defeat.

Pro-mortalism categorically rejects defeat. We want everyone (at least everyone who wants it) to enjoy the benefits of death. That's why those who have not yet died by suicide (and believe me, many already have) spend so much time talking about these ideas. We want more people to understand our position and embrace its truth.

I actually even took some time to read about helping people escape cults,

I would advise everyone to disregard this "pro-death cult" fearmongering. What irony it is that the pro-lifers wants to re-educate us back into their false ideology when we have already discovered the truth.

Much more could be said about this. I only typed this up in haste after noticing - to my surprise - that this "pro-death" group has had no advocate in this thread.

 

[eden101]

Because they usually attacked members who disagreed with them.

i use the ignore button, no need to argue on this site imo. or i dont reply, if someone attacks you and insults you here - report and dont continue the conversation. save your nerves

 

[derpyderpins]

Did you recover from your inceldom

I've been lonely but I don't think you could ever say I was an incel. I now sleep with the love of my life every night.

I don't know, I think certain people here making fun of incels is the pot calling the kettle black. You'll get over it eventually.

I'd never make fun of people for being lonely. I relate a lot to guys who have a hard time finding a partner. To me there's a difference between "can't get a girlfriend" and that internet subculture filled with sexism and racism that deserves to be made fun of. I don't know what I need to get over

Good grief. The original post and nearly all the comments are in opposition to the pro-mortal position.

Well, this is the recovery forum. Although interestingly this now weeks-old post is suddenly getting a lot of attention in the last 24-hours. Dunno if it was posted somewhere or what.

Where are all these "pro-death" people you speak of? The problem is not that there are too many, but that there are too few.

While they claim to be high IQ, they often can't deal with a back-and-forth on the merits of their ideals. I'm not going to call them out individually. Plenty have made it clear to me that they see the rhetoric and it discourages them. Apparently you are one if you unironically think more people need to be "pro-death." This post is not directed at them, as I've made clear. It's directed at people trying to feel better.

Pro-mortalists recognize that people sometimes enjoy themselves.

Well, we're now dealing with your newly-defined term of "pro-mortalists," but the people I'm talking about do not recognize fulfillment without caveat. They will say that - yes - some people enjoy life, but those people are brainwashed or lying to themselves or too dumb to see the true way of the world.

It's just that this enjoyment is outweighed by the benefits of death.

Not for everyone, imo, which is a premise this post is based on. My life is worth more than the benefits of death to me.

People who do not want to CTB aren't "sheeple", but they are beholden to their survival instinct, and not rationality.

So . . . not "sheeple," just irrational animals controlled by instinct rather than thought. . . sounds like a distinction without a difference.

Pro-mortalism categorically rejects defeat. We want everyone (at least everyone who wants it) to enjoy the benefits of death. That's why those who have not yet died by suicide (and believe me, many already have) spend so much time talking about these ideas.

I know a lot of people have died by suicide. I also want those who desire ctb to have that option.

We want more people to understand our position and embrace its truth.

... See, it's the "truth" that I disagree with. Death being better than life is a case-by-case evaluation, not some universal "truth." I understand your position, although if I'd be happy to hear more if you want to discuss, but I will push back where I disagree.

I would advise everyone to disregard this "pro-death cult" fearmongering. What irony it is that the pro-lifers wants to re-educate us back into their false ideology when we have already discovered the truth.

I'm in favor of the right to painless suicide, so I'm not sure how I'm a "pro-lifer." I advocate for actual choice. If you disagree, I'm happy to have a back-and-forth with you as long as you'd like. I also don't see how the word "fearmongering" makes any sense in a post where I say that I believe everyone can feel better, the right to ctb should still be allowed, and no one deserves hate . . .

Much more could be said about this. I only typed this up in haste after noticing - to my surprise - that this "pro-death" group has had no advocate in this thread.

Again, it's in the recovery section, which the people I refer to don't frequent, and in my experience those people don't want to get too deep in the weeds. Feel free to be the "advocate" if you want, but the point of this thread is not to debate the merits of being pro-death. The point of the thread is that if you are trying to recover, do not let people who are pro-death tell you that happiness is impossible. It's against black-and-white thinking.

 

[GuessWhosBack]

Death being better than life is a case-by-case evaluation, not some universal "truth."

I wish more people understood this.

 

[Tesha]

We want more people to understand our position and embrace its truth.

I believe that's generally considered to be a cult.

The point of the thread is that if you are trying to recover, do not let people who are pro-death tell you that happiness is impossible.

I think you post was well suited to the recovery section. There are plenty of people who use this site that are easily influenced and need to hear different perspectives. As I said above, I found your post well written and thought provoking.

 

[Hvergelmir]

To me there's a difference between "can't get a girlfriend" and that internet subculture filled with sexism and racism that deserves to be made fun of.

I personally think this kind of exclusion is the very cause of much radicalization.
I think exclusion is misguided in most cases, and I think bullying/laughing at people always is, whether we're dealing with incels or other radicals.

 

[derpyderpins]

I personally think this kind of exclusion is the very cause of much radicalization.
I think exclusion is misguided in most cases, and I think bullying/laughing at people always is, whether we're dealing with incels or other radicals.

That's fair, and I've said similar, so I should watch my wording more. Those young men get in a position where they are in need of support, and if those groups are the only ones who listen they will buy in, even if the ideology is all about hatred and "rotting" and negativity. If you are a young person struggling with loneliness and isolation that is a very legitimate problem to have.

 

[GuessWhosBack]

That's fair, and I've said similar, so I should watch my wording more. Those young men get in a position where they are in need of support, and if those groups are the only ones who listen they will buy in, even if the ideology is all about hatred and "rotting" and negativity. If you are a young person struggling with loneliness and isolation that is a very legitimate problem to have.

It's also very suspect, in my opinion, that youtube promotes this and adjacent type of ragebait content to young men.

 

[Deleted member 8119]

I personally think this kind of exclusion is the very cause of much radicalization.
I think exclusion is misguided in most cases, and I think bullying/laughing at people always is, whether we're dealing with incels or other radicals.

People who have fallen for violent ideologies aren't getting out because you hug them nor you need to laugh at them for them to believe it. They do it alone. Some people just tends to do evil without external pushing.

Radical incels deserve to be shunned and we must make clear their ideas aren't healthy in any way. Tolerating everything never ended up well.

 

[MelancholyMagic]

Well, we're now dealing with your newly-defined term of "pro-mortalists,"

"Pro-death" is an uncommon term outside of abortion discussions. "Pro-mortalist" is more typical and means "one who holds that death is always better than continued living for the one who dies" (though there are also slightly different definitions).

Not for everyone, imo, which is a premise this post is based on. My life is worth more than the benefits of death to me.

You think that now, but if you were to die, then all your suffering would end and no new suffering would be created for you as a result of your death.

if I'd be happy to hear more if you want to discuss, but I will push back where I disagree.

Unfortunately, this site is riddled with journalists and government agents who together form our new Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, and I would hate to add more material for them to twist and use against this site. You would get more lively discussion on Reddit (though Reddit also has its own problems). r/Promortalism is banned, so r/Efilism is probably your best bet.

The point of the thread is that if you are trying to recover, do not let people who are pro-death tell you that happiness is impossible. It's against black-and-white thinking.

Black-and-white thinking is apt for our black-and-white world. It is curious that you title this post "Pity the 'Pro-Death'" and yet accuse the pro-death of feeling superior. Pity manifests when the pitier feels above the pitied.

I personally think this kind of exclusion is the very cause of much radicalization.
I think exclusion is misguided in most cases, and I think bullying/laughing at people always is, whether we're dealing with incels or other radicals.

For a pertinent example, this site was only created after r/SanctionedSuicide was banned on Reddit for "giving method advice". The advice there was scarce and usually amounted to "a rope will hang you" - no detailed guides like this site offers. In banning one community, all that happened was the creation of another which many people find much more extreme. (Though, to be clear, I don't find this site extreme).

 

[derpyderpins]

"Pro-death" is an uncommon term outside of abortion discussions. "Pro-mortalist" is more typical and means "one who holds that death is always better than continued living for the one who dies" (though there are also slightly different definitions).

Thanks for giving a clear definition. I certainly disagree with the philosophy for the word "always", but it is good to know generally what we're discussing.

You think that now, but if you were to die, then all your suffering would end and no new suffering would be created for you as a result of your death.

I've gone down this road of argument and philosophy. Ultimately, I end up rejecting the "death is 0, and since life could be worse than 0, death is better - even if life could be greater than 0 - because in 0 you aren't aware of the possibility of greater than 0" logic chain. It can be a fun discussion to have. I will gladly take the suffering in exchange for the good, even if an instant painless death were available. I get one shot at this life and I want to spend every second I can having experiences.

Unfortunately, this site is riddled with journalists and government agents who together form our new Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, and I would hate to add more material for them to twist and use against this site. You would get more lively discussion on Reddit (though Reddit also has its own problems). r/Promortalism is banned, so r/Efilism is probably your best bet.

I'm pretty against reddit since they banned the original ss, but I will take your word and poke around. If you'd like to discuss privately I'm happy to do that as well.

Black-and-white thinking is apt for our black-and-white world.

The world is very much so not black-and-white when it comes to individual experience.

It is curious that you title this post "Pity the 'Pro-Death'" and yet accuse the pro-death of feeling superior. Pity manifests when the pitier feels above the pitied.

Well, that's interesting to me for a few reasons. First, I've often said I view pity differently than other people. I don't get offended being pitied. Second, the specific people I'm thinking of when talking about this post have directly told me they pity me because I have a job instead of "rotting". Again, I'm not going to name them, I just find it funny.

The biggest reason it's interesting to me is the question of whether they "feel" superior. They certainly act superior. I'd say superiority complexes are common amongst them - and they largely admit it in different words: they have no reason to feel superior but literally claim they deserve better than other people from virtue of being born "special." It's really quite a rabbit hole to lurk on their other forums.

The conclusion I draw is that they really feel horribly inferior deep down, which I do pity. I don't think I'm better than them. I'd pity someone far better than me who was in pain.

For a pertinent example, this site was only created after r/SanctionedSuicide was banned on Reddit for "giving method advice". The advice there was scarce and usually amounted to "a rope will hang you" - no detailed guides like this site offers. In banning one community, all that happened was the creation of another which many people find much more extreme. (Though, to be clear, I don't find this site extreme).

The ban was complete BS, and I completely agree with you. That group being supportive is why I'm still here today. No one pushed me to ctb.

 

[senti-mental]

OP has more patience in dealing with these people than me, i usually tell them to touch grass.

 

[pyx]

it's always interesting to see when pro-mortalist vanguards manifest in echo-chambers. there's no room for reasonable discourse because, fundamentally, both parties share completely opposing views on what constitutes a 'good' life, and this difference very likely cannot be reconciled. pro-mortalism should ideally be an individual position, and not some inane way to look down upon others whose values differ from theirs. this, too, seems to be the failing of a lot of anti-natalistic rhetoric, despite the fact that there is an undeniably logical foundation to it. it shouldn't be "you're stupid for having children," but "i'd prefer not to have children because of X considerations, and no-one should be able to tell me otherwise." in the case of pro-mortalism, it should be "i think death is preferable to life, because of X reasons" rather than "life is objectively bad, you're just deluded to think otherwise," or "if you consider it logically, you are bound to come to the same conclusion as I have, so long as you don't cling to your slave-like thinking."

Pro-mortalists recognize that people sometimes enjoy themselves. It's just that this enjoyment is outweighed by the benefits of death. People who do not want to CTB aren't "sheeple", but they are beholden to their survival instinct, and not rationality.

who is to say that the other party is irrational? you're introducing an abstract distinction into practical matters, assuming that we should treat pleasure as utilitarian in nature. true, i think that pleasure itself is very deceiving, but to say that those who view it differently from you are 'irrational' is an error on your part. i think that the argument holds in anti-natalist discourse when you're given the choice to introduce life into the world, though. but that's on an individual level

still, the proselytizing and tenacity on the part of pro-mortalist circles should not be considered pitiful. pity is cheap, after all. it's distasteful, but not pitiful

We want more people to understand our position and embrace its truth.

just lol

 

[Hvergelmir]

People who have fallen for violent ideologies aren't getting out because you hug them nor you need to laugh at them for them to believe it. They do it alone. Some people just tends to do evil without external pushing.

People are definitely affected by their environment. When we're not talking about rare lunatics, but widespread movements such as incels or other recognized ideologies, it can't be blamed on innate "evil".
All those belief systems have rational, rhetoric and emotional patterns, which the human brain is inclined to deem valid. The way to counter this is to promote competing patterns.

Forming isolated camps is reminiscent of cults, and generally a just recipe for conflict. Free speech is important, not just as a legislative policy.

 

[MelancholyMagic]

pro-mortalism should ideally be an individual position, and not some inane way to look down upon others whose values differ from theirs. this, too, seems to be the failing of a lot of anti-natalistic rhetoric

This would reduce pro-mortalism and antinatalism to personal preference. At that point, there is not much discourse to have - it would be like discussing whether chocolate is yummy.

 

[derpyderpins]

Bro is trying to write The Iliad about incels

My response to you was 4 sentences lol

who cares who actually gives a shit other than you

I'm responding because I keep getting pinged so obviously someone cares . . . including you. The original post was not about incels, and if it mentioned them it was merely tangential to the overall point.

 

[derpyderpins]

Are you going to cry...?
Maybe shit your pants and write another essay about it?

I'm not even slightly emotionally invested in this exchange lol. Sorry you're getting so riled up I sincerely hope you feel better soon.

 

[derpyderpins]

Just write another gay essay, bro.

Do you have something you'd like to read about? I don't really know much about lgbt stuff in general so "gay" probably isn't my strong suit. I probably won't get to a big post like this for a while but I'll continue putting out recovery materials and I'm open to suggestions.

 

[derpyderpins]

FYI, you're being baited. I reported them.

lol I know I am but I'm enjoying myself. I love when people tell you "no one cares" then keep replying.

 

[pyx]

This would reduce pro-mortalism and antinatalism to personal preference. At that point, there is not much discourse to have - it would be like discussing whether chocolate is yummy.

well, no. they aren't the same. these views don't exist in a vacuum, and thus influence others to a certain degree. an anti-work philosophy plays a role in how an individual functions within society; detractors are simply those who feel that it is necessary to contribute, with those avoiding so being a detriment to society. it's still taking the individual into account, since some people see conformity as necessary for attaining a good life.

we should argue for the individual in using his own principles and judgement to never be deprived of that liberty, which is coextensive with how they interact with society in general. the foundation of a good life is being conservative in ones morals. so we can engage in discourse as to what it ought to be in principle.

"chocolate is yummy" has no implication upon the real world. the choice to not procreate certainly does, no? the pro-mortalistic position is the same. inevitably, pro-mortalism does, i think, portray suicide as inherently preferable, rather than a choice which has been brought about by circumstance. so really arguing for or against bleeds, in general, to all aspects of daily life. we should argue rationally in both cases, but arguing that one or the other is deluded for not accepting their own conclusion is wrong, because the outcome must be based on practice, and not simply a conclusion built on tenacity.

TL;DR, ideological positions are rights which we can argue with logic in order to not undermine the value of adhering to such principles in the real world, but consequently we should not be naive to say that these rights cannot be criticised in the same vein. they are individual, but not limited chiefly to preference.

People are definitely affected by their environment. When we're not talking about rare lunatics, but widespread movements such as incels or other recognized ideologies, it can't be blamed on innate "evil".
All those belief systems have rational, rhetoric and emotional patterns, which the human brain is inclined to deem valid. The way to counter this is to promote competing patterns.

Forming isolated camps is reminiscent of cults, and generally a just recipe for conflict. Free speech is important, not just as a legislative policy.

really good way of putting it.

 

[Manfrotto99]

It's very tricky. I think it is very difficult to have a forum about cbt and not have people with generalised and distorted views about life and death expressing themselves.

Most people on here suffer from one thing or another but I would say depression is a common thread, which in itself causes people to not think rationally. Personally the more depressed I become, the more I focus on the negative and make generalisations. My thoughts becoming distorted and confused as I see and experience my life through a lens of depression, sadness and anxiety. If that is how I experience my life, then I can tell myself the opposite of life must be better and I will find ways to rationalise this, based on my own personal life's experiences. This forum then becomes a way to express that and find meaning. We all need to find reason and meaning, even when there is no meaning to be found.

I have a background in environment science, I can see and appreciate the beauty in this world, but I can also see how messed up and crazy it is and how much worse it's become just over the past 10-20 years. We live in a soceity that prioritises economy and competition and the haves over the have nots. But I can only really view this and how it has impacted me through my own distorted eyes and limited experiences. I once has a great job and purpose, I've also seen people's lives change and I've seen people who were suicidal go on to live happy fullfilling lives. A lot of people on here are young and don't know much different other than there troubled existence and the unhappiness of others around them and in the media. They compare death to their life and convince themselves that the opposite of what they know, must be better. It is sad because they give up on opportunities and experiences that may be available to them while they are young. I've seen people die and confront their SI with a fight when the time comes. Sadly I think this is the case with some people on here, who unless they have given it there best shot and exhausted all options, may realise when it is too late they made a wrong choice, because they firmly convicted themselves that death holds the answers.

It is really good that you have raised the issue and helped made some of us become a little more aware of our thoughts and messages we relay to others. I think that is very important not to idolise death and promoting it as such can be dangerous. I dont want to be complicit in that myself. Such thoughts I should keep to myself, difficult as it is, given my need like everyone else on here, who to to find meaning by expressing and rationalising my thoughts and behavious about cbt on this forum. I'm sure many won't get it or may even take offence. I think on a forum like this we need to respect that, but also be accountable for our own actions.