Plentiful_Despair

Plentiful_Despair

Experienced
Aug 23, 2024
265
I think there's no problem with being pro-death, as long as it's no calls to violence (which I haven't seen here so far). Death is natural and becomes more attractive to pursue for many people every day considering the state of this hellish world.
 
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derpyderpins

derpyderpins

Normie Life Mogs
Sep 19, 2023
1,795
Who are these prodeath people you are referring to? I've not encountered them.
Maybe there are none. This is an older post now. Maybe they've moved to different places to surround themselves with only negativity.

But I think there are still plenty. It's the difference between "I want to die because I'm unsatisfied with life" and "everyone should want to die/all lives are bad/being happy isn't possible/having children is always immoral because they won't be happy/" ... Things of that nature.

It doesn't really matter for this recovery post, though, how many there may be. This thread is not directed at anyone in that category, which I think is pretty clear. (Especially where I've already clarified and answered similar questions in the comments). This post is directed at people discouraged seeing such sentiments.

I think just like prolifers have an all encompassing view so, too, would a prodeather. It's the nature of being human so it makes sense they will have exactly the same on opposite sides of the coin. If a prolifer cannot understand the need, ever, for ctb, how can you expect a prodeather to be any different in their worldview?
It is possible to think "life can be good or bad and ctb should be a choice for each person."

You think people get to choose their attitude toward life regardless of experience?
Considering this is the recovery forum, I think it would be pretty pointless to adopt the stance that people can't alter their perception of existence.

Yet you don't see how extreme that is and that you are doing the same thing you are railing against.
What am I doing, exactly? Not trying to be a smart ass I really don't understand. Assuming you think I'm "railing against" the pro death people, I don't see how I'm doing the same thing by encouraging the view that the quality of one's life can vary. I never say that ctb is not a legitimate option or that ctb can never be the answer.
 
wondering&wandering

wondering&wandering

Too often I think about the nature of thinking...
Jan 12, 2024
211
Hey, just wanted to say I read your post and it speaks well to the problem people too often find themselves in of closed-mindedness. I know I've had to fight and figure out some things myself regarding my beliefs. Hopefully others will see this and start to acknowledge that they might be contributing to their own problems. I know lots of people live in bad circumstances they can't control, but there is a certain mindset that just makes it all the more miserable.

Well, I wish you peace!
 
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derpyderpins

derpyderpins

Normie Life Mogs
Sep 19, 2023
1,795
Hey, just wanted to say I read your post and it speaks well to the problem people too often find themselves in of closed-mindedness. I know I've had to fight and figure out some things myself regarding my beliefs. Hopefully others will see this and start to acknowledge that they might be contributing to their own problems. I know lots of people live in bad circumstances they can't control, but there is a certain mindset that just makes it all the more miserable.

Well, I wish you peace!
Thanks for the kind words! I have been where they are and said a lot of the same stuff. I really do feel for them. I somewhat doubt my posts will be what triggers their reconsideration of things, but once they decide to try and feel a little better I do hope it can help.
 
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derpyderpins

derpyderpins

Normie Life Mogs
Sep 19, 2023
1,795
I have run into people like that in other places but they create their own spaces so are relatively easy to avoid.

Yes, it is possible, but it read like you were saying people get to choose their attitudes and experiences regardless of any suffering.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that. Recovery is very hard. Again, this post is not directed at the pro death at all. It breaks down how they got to that point so that one can listen to them with empathy rather than contempt. At least, that was the intention. If you want my take on how to start changing your perspective, I have a post with "step 1" in the title if you'd like to search for it. It may be linked somewhere in this post I don't remember.
Do they? When my perception of existence changed I felt very powerless over it. I wanted life desperately but years of chronic and extreme physical suffering changed my perspective drastically even as I actively fought against it.

Scientifically speaking, there are scientists that claim we have no free will for this reason.
My perspective has changed and is still changing, that's why I'm writing it. But it's absolutely something you must want and work towards, imo.

Again, my opinion, but you can't just decide "okay I'm going to love life now." If you try that, I don't think it will take. I think it has to be gradual, and it's really about saying "okay, I don't want to feel so awful today." You can't fix physical suffering this way, but a lot of thoughts and worries and beliefs may be distorted and causing additional suffering. Also a lot of spending time dwelling on things that are out of one's control: which - because the things are out of the person's control - serves no purpose but to inflict additional suffering on the self. Baby steps are the way to go. 'When something upsets me, I will let it go just a little sooner. If I can be slightly more patient today, then I can try to be slightly better tomorrow, and so on.'

It read to me like you were stating we just need to choose our perspective toward whatever we may be experiencing, good or bad. I apologize since it seems I got it wrong.
It's okay. I understand now what you meant when you thought I was being the same as them, if you thought I was making assumptions about other's circumstances.
But my point I was making is that the prolife and prodeath movements are exactly the same. Just two sides of the same coin. And it makes sense since we are all humans. Just like prolifers are extremist, I'm not surprised prodeathers are also.
I'm not surprised they exist, necessarily. As the title implies, I pity them. At least the pro-lifers' distorted view makes themselves feel better at other's expense. The pro-death continuously make themselves feel worse at the expense of all around them. Now that's a bleak thought.
 
JoysoftheEmptiness

JoysoftheEmptiness

Student
Sep 10, 2024
127
Suicide for me is the last thing I really want, but if life is too difficult, or just totally impossible for me to go on, then, yes, I should be allowed that option. I'm sitting on the fence, and more likely to choose life over death.
 
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derpyderpins

derpyderpins

Normie Life Mogs
Sep 19, 2023
1,795
Thank you but I already love life. As I mentioned, my perspective changed from years of physical suffering. Ctb is a human right.
Suicide for me is the last thing I really want, but if life is too difficult, or just totally impossible for me to go on, then, yes, I should be allowed that option. I'm sitting on the fence, and more likely to choose life over death.
Completely agree with both of you. Peaceful methods should be available. (Well, legal, at least.)
 
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aespa

aespa

Member
Oct 23, 2024
50
We all get annoyed with "pro-lifers," people who think suicide or euthanasia is bad in every situation no matter what and that no one should be able to choose ctb for themselves. Well, equally annoying - particularly from a recovery standpoint - is the increasing Pro-Death sentiment we encounter on this site: people who say life can never be good and death is always the answer, or at least generally dismiss the idea that other people can legitimately experience life differently than they do.

Negativity is to be expected on a website that is in favor of the right to peaceful suicide. A lot of people are hurting. But there is a difference between wanting ctb for yourself and insisting that ctb would be best for everyone. Example:

Reasonable negativity: "life is so hard. I've been unhappy and tried so much. I can't relate to people who are doing well. I'm very different from them. I want to ctb to relieve my suffering."

Pro-Death negativity: "life is objectively horrible. Being happy doesn't make sense. I don't enjoy anything, and no one could enjoy anything unless they're deluded. I want ctb, and people who don't want ctb are stupid sheeple."​

The generalized statements about people with jobs, people who are parents, people with disabilities, people with certain physical characteristics, people in different IQ categories, etc. are all indirectly aimed at others, intentionally or not. If you are trying to recover and see comments about your category, on a site where you're looking for support . . . it's a punch in the gut.

I want to be clear, this is not meant to disparage. I feel incredibly sad for those who embrace this way of thinking. You see, it resembles a cult. I have seen people who were down but not so far gone fall into this mindset and spiral from there.

In this post, I want to examine the ideology, explain how it comes about, discuss why it gets such a strong hold on people, and try to convince those in recovery to embrace pity over annoyance. I am also trying, as part of my effort to theorycraft recovery, to figure out what on earth can be done for people who embrace these beliefs, if anything. The motivation for the post is that some very pure-hearted people have been highly discouraged recently, and I want to offer an alternative view for them. This post does not aim to call anyone out or debate these views (although I'm always open to discussion, this is simply not the venue.) The post is aimed at people who are attempting recovery who get discouraged seeing this stuff, not people who believe this stuff (again, we can discuss separately if you'd like). As a disclaimer, I in no way mean to minimize anyone's pain. My belief is that anyone can live a fulfilling life or be unsatisfied with life and choose ctb for themselves regardless of situation.



What do I mean by Pro-Death?

Pro-Death goes beyond wanting death for oneself. They don't necessarily wish death on others, but they think preferring death is always logical, and they think anyone who doesn't come to that conclusion is mistaken. And, most importantly, they seem to be bothered if you suggest there are good parts to life and that it's possible to be fulfilled while being rational. Of course, the group is not a monolith, but they probably believe at least some of these things:
  • Antinatalism to the Extreme: one can be antinatalist with a nuanced view about risk and probabilities, and while I'd disagree with them it can be an interesting discussion. The Pro-Death version of antinatalism, however, concludes absolutely that there is no goodness in the world (or that any goodness is negated because "well if you never existed you wouldn't want the goodness."). They will try to logic out why the life you claim you enjoy actually sucks/is not worth living. And, btw, parents are evil for having kids (even though there are sweet, caring parents on this site).
  • "I NEVER ASKED TO BE BORN!": This line has been uttered by many children and teenagers towards their parents throughout the past century, but the reality is that we were all born. That's the situation. The Pro-Death will argue "I never asked to be born" and conclude that they are owed support, as existence is involuntary. The stance is vital, as it is an excuse to believe that one can take without giving back; have no obligations; justify cruelty and selfishness; owe no explanation for extreme views; and so on.
  • Work is slavery: This is a common thread that latches the people on this site to the darker, more vile parts of the incel world (which is more nuts than you can imagine if you dig through their resources for just a few minutes.) I have used the "wageslave" rhetoric before, as I am fairly antiwork and have a lot of issues with modern work standards and culture. When I call it wageslaving, though, I understand that I'm exaggerating, and it is not literal slavery. Pro-Death does not recognize the nuance: if you earned a degree and applied for a job and signed a contract that allows you to leave at any time, you are the exact same as a child taken from their home to be put in chains and raped repeatedly for the rest of their life - a "slave." It is absolute. (And you're dumb for going along with it.)
  • Happy People are Sheeple: Closely related to above. Anyone who enjoys life, or is okay having a job, or enjoys being around other people, or similar, is a Normie, NPC, sheeple, brainwashed simpleton, etc. This allows for automatic dismissal of challenges to the views.
  • Other Incel forum talk: eg., focus on looks and IQ and genetic superiority, focus on racial stuff, etc; Anything that can make some people feel like they never had a shot so they just give up. It's thinking a person can be defined with stats, like a character sheet in Dungeons and Dragons. It can strangely be simultaneously combined with a superiority complex - that one's stats are too good to relate to commoners. Extra points if smartness is defined as being exactly someone's own IQ or higher, making everyone below that dumb.

I could go on, but if you are a regular on this site you get what I'm talking about. Other commonalities are overuse of words such as "objectively," "rationally," "logically," and stuff about how we're biological machines rather than creatures with higher consciousness.

The overlap with incel talk says something important: this is an ideology of defeat. They have been defeated, have given up, and are looking to explain how the defeat was not their fault. (I personally do not believe the defeat was permanent. As the Positive Paul of the forum, I believe in them, but this is from their subconscious perspective.)



An Unstable Foundation

A common occurrence these days:

A: "Life is bad and thinking life is good is stupid."

B: "But what about XYZ? I think there can be more nuance to the view."

A: "You only think that because brainwashed/irrational/ not objective, etc." (No addressing the arguments.)

C: "Wow, [A], I simply can't understand why there's any pushback on your based take that happy people are wrong to be happy."

B: "Well, see, I just told you. Here are some arguments . . . [XYZ, etc.]"
  • Silence

I want to emphasize, again, that I'm not making fun of anyone. This doesn't mean if you've bought into Pro-Death you aren't smart. It's simply a position that's impossible to defend. If I enter a debate, and the other person is assigned the position that "it is impossible to add two numbers and have the results be an even number," and I point out "well, 1+1=2, which is even," I haven't really out-debated them, right?

It's pain avoidance. Make no mistake, the initial motivation is fear: fear of failure, rejection, etc. Arrogance is common, but deep down is self-hatred. They know it's all wrong, but their strategy of hiding from pain won't let them face it.

The arguments are built top-down, starting with the answer and justifying it later. It leads to a very shaky structure of beliefs. If any one of the legs are knocked out, the whole thing collapses. It's aiming to avoid all pain. First, retreat from fears by withdrawing from society. But, there are still bad feelings: guilt, self-doubt, loneliness, and more. The beliefs are meant to negate these. "I never asked to be born" eliminates the guilt of siphoning off people, because an unfathomably awful wrong was committed against those born into this world, mandating reparations.

To say being birthed is an absolute harm, life must be an absolute bad. If life could be good, it could be reasonable to give birth. This leads to the extreme antinatalist views: the worship of "non-existence." If we never lived, nothing would be bad or wrong, and pain is so overwhelming that non-existence is "objectively" superior.

Unfortunately, there is overwhelming evidence that lots of people think their life is something worthwhile. But for Pro-Death life must be objectively bad, so that birthing people is objectively bad, so that the world owes someone born for the cruelty of existence. So, happy people are dismissed, first, by converting those on the edge of despair:

State repeatedly that most of life is work, and the evil system takes most of the money, so life is a pointless lie, etc. In fact, workers are slaves. A slave's life can't be good, right? Work = modern day slavery with no nuance. It's very discouraging to hear, and even more of a mood killer once you start saying it to yourself. If you have to work, you are a slave, therefore your life is bad, therefore non-existence would be better, therefore you being born was a crime and you are owed support for life in reciprocation.

But some will still insist life is good, not believing all work is the same as slavery. It is unconvincing to say these people are wrong in their own evaluation of their happiness. The Pro-Death now need some other explanation: brainwashing, programming, the matrix, NPCs, etc. 'These people must be delusional and irrational, or not smart enough, falling victim to propaganda.' I'm repeating myself, but this is a necessity, because if a rational, unbrainwashed person can be evidence that life can be good, then non-existence is not objectively superior, so giving birth is not pure evil, and the excuse to avoid the ways of the world is gone.

The sad thing is the trade being made: in exchange for no responsibilities, guilt, heartbreak, pain, disappointment, etc., the Pro-Death are locked in. Life's joys are forbidden: love, fulfillment, purpose, friendship. . . if you have those, then life isn't all bad and you knock the whole belief system down.



It's a Lie

Even more sad - and the point of this post - it's a lie. The Pro-Death say they feel no guilt, they aren't lonely, they don't want to do anything with their lives, etc., but they are clearly in great misery. They may not admit what the bad feelings are, but they're there. There's guilt, self-hatred, and loneliness. They push it down and down further and further, but it's there. It's pretty clear if you read between the lines. Even worse, they cover the deeper feelings with rage and hatred. Hatred is exhausting and fruitless. People need vulnerability, purpose, and support, but seeking any of them releases the buried feelings and collapses the belief structure.

It's a trap, leading one deeper and deeper into the pit. As you dehumanize people, you of course start to have arrogance, deserved or otherwise. But what is the source of the arrogance? The Pro-Death empty everything from their lives except the ideology, so the ideology is their identity, and it is what they think makes them superior. . . but the ideology goes hand-in-hand with misery. As put so eloquently in another thread (on a different topic, I'm not suggesting they endorse this post) by @Abandoned Character :



They can't escape the misery, and every day spent in the cesspit makes escape harder.

So, when they say something cruel, rather than taking it seriously, realize how it is coming from a place of immense pain. They'll never apologize to you, because it would be acknowledging that they may owe people something in some cases, and - again - the whole house of cards falls. But, I personally believe there's someone good still in there, and nothing they say will convince me otherwise. I'm sad for those trapped souls, wanting something better but imprisoned by the pain.



Normally, when I write a big post like this I do it all in one go, but this one has been drafted and revised five(!) times now. I wanted to find the right tone, avoid attacking anyone, and - believe it or not - keep it reasonable in length. This post is not aimed at the Pro-Death. I may antagonize sometimes because of rough feelings and my lack of self-control, but I actually do just want what's best for them. (I don't claim to know what that is, but when I say "what's best for them," I mean what puts their overall contentedness/happiness/stability as high as possible without harming others, even if that means a peaceful ctb.)

This post is being made because more than a handful of people have personally expressed to me frustration with seeing these views. It's fine to have your own opinions, but the problem is that these views inherently attack others, just like what got Funeral Cry temp banned. If I say anyone who has friends or a job or dreams or passions is a dumb Normie, or weak and brainwashed, or anything generalizing, I'm insulting a large group of people. This post is to attempt to explain to those who are being indirectly insulted or otherwise discouraged that they should take pity on these people. It's easy to posture through text, but the image I have of them betrays the confidence they attempt to project. Frankly, it breaks my heart a bit.

One failure of this post is that I did not come up with any way to help them. I actually even took some time to read about helping people escape cults, but as long as their echo chambers (this place, NEET sites, incel sites) are as equally accessible as anyone speaking reason I don't know of a way to help through a screen unless they can pass Step 1 and realize something is wrong. In fact, challenging them probably has the opposite effect and drives them deeper. Sorry about that. My hope is that not many subscribing to these views see this post, as I assume they don't frequent the recovery section.
I completely agree
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,783
I really appreciate this post, well said šŸ‘
 
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