Opinions on anti-natalism

[NumbItAll]

Even if you are the perfect parent, there is a nontrivial chance that your offspring will have a horrible life full of suffering due to physical/mental health issues or some other unforeseen circumstances. What % chance of that happening is acceptable? None, for me. I agree a lot with this post...

So I think this is our main point of disagreement. We could argue about what percent of people experience more suffering than pleasure, but I believe even if a single person experiences a life full of horrific suffering it is not worth the pleasure of even 7 billion people.

Imagine you are at a huge party where everyone is having a great time but hidden just under your feet is a room containing an 8 year old girl being raped and tortured, suffering to an unthinkable extent. The party and the torture will continue for thousands, even millions of years with the girl being replaced with a new one each time she dies. You have a button that would painlessly end the lives of everyone at the party and the girl, ending the pleasure and suffering forever. I take it you would not press it?

Plus there is the issue of consent which has already been covered. It all feels very sick to me. Not sure why existing is even necessary at all. I am blown away when I watch trashy reality shows and see couples haphazardly discussing how many kids they want, like they are just picking something out from the store. No big deal at all. Clearly I am out of the loop.

 

[Efilismislife]

why is it necessarily better that living and dealing with suffering in order to find something enjoyable is worse than avoiding all pain and not existing entirely?

Your argument has been debunked too many times.

your need to seek pleasure only driven by your gene, controll you to avoid misery and turn to pleasure which actually just happy chemical hormones in your brain. But human are slave to it

that system not applied for the non existence. Non existence doesnt even need pleasure: those happy chemicals in brain cause they cant feel pain either. They dont even have brain hormones nervous system, Those crap only applies to living things which have the sensory to feel and think.

it seems like living things are interested in continuing to live when created so i have trouble accepting that it's better for life (human ones specifically) to not be continued to be created.

if life were really so undesirable it would make sense we would see more people attempting to override their programming despite difficulty in obtaining good methods.
you're more or less saying that, for most people/living creatures, life is worth persisting in.

People dont even have the free choice to end their lives otherwise this forum and other suicide resources wouldnt even need to fight so hard.



religion, law, etc, etc punish people, ban method and make it so hard for people to end their lives. That proves how many people being forced to born selfishly and to suffer their entire lives. Like slavery

make sacro pod or N or other painless death be legal, available for free for anyone+dont make suicide a taboo

then we can see the truth

 

[whatevs]

make sacro pod or N or other painless death be legal, available for free for anyone+dont make suicide a taboo

then we can see the truth

The truth is that 99% of people wouldn't even dream of using the pod or drinking a painless barbiturate. People enjoy living, they are walking embodiments of the will to exist. The very reason they are around is because 'something' wanted to be manifested to begin with, so their essence/idiosyncrasy is made up of eagerness to live, survive and escape death.

Just because you or me feel something else regarding life it doesn't mean this sentiment is the norm.

 

[Efilismislife]

The truth is that 99% of people wouldn't even dream of using the pod or drinking a painless barbiturate. People enjoy living, they are walking embodiments of the will to exist. The very reason they are around is because something wanted to be manifested to begin with, so their essence/idiosincrasy is made up of eagerness to live, survive and escape death.

Just because you or me feel something else regarding life it doesn't mean this sentiment is the norm.

Drinking, drugs, binge eating, stress, depression are very high check on the global survey 70%-80% of global population are victim of it. Which means many people feel burdened about this lives but they dont have the choice to escape. Those are their escapism of this hard lives. (Drugs, drinking, addiction, etc, etc)

Even successful people which from the outside seem to have a great lives fall into depression.

 

[whatevs]

Drinking, drugs, binge eating, sex, pornography, addiction to sports or your physique, doing trips to run from your issues at home, getting obsessed with work and earning money and fame, attaching yourself to someone and having offspring, having strong familial bonds.

You inspired me to list some of the things that normies do that PREVENT them from wanting to kill themselves. And there are many more.

 

[Efilismislife]

The very reason they are around is because 'something' wanted to be manifested to begin with, so their essence/idiosyncrasy is made up of eagerness to live, survive and escape death.

are you saying everybody here who still cant ctb, who are in abusive relationship, slavery, sick, aging, deteriorating, disabled, depressed lonely, etc
Suffer because they want to? Instead of other reasons that force them to endure

You inspired me to list some of the things that normies do that PREVENT them from wanting to kill themselves. And there are many more.

Religion too. It makes some people feel high on that and think theyre special and get reward to continue to endure

 

[whatevs]

are you saying everybody here who still cant ctb, who are in abusive relationship, slavery, sick, aging, deteriorating, disabled, depressed lonely, etc
Suffer because they want to? Instead of other reasons that force them to endure

Obviously nobody actually wants to suffer, I'm just saying that the default of humans is to covet existing and fear death, so suicide is rare.

 

[Efilismislife]

Obviously nobody actually wants to suffer, I'm just saying that the default of humans is to covet existing and fear death, so suicide is rare.

But appart from SI, suicide taboo is a doctrine, fear mongering people. The law, religion, ban, etc, etc.
Without those the ctb rate will be higher

that makes me wonder.. Do animals know and fear death, what makes people fear death.......

I guess its because death dying=painful seems scary... Unless if it can be painless...

Like when you play a game and it turn into a mess and you fed up with it. You can just quit easily without any trouble. If life is like that people wont hesitate to quit life when its not desirable for them anymore.

same as people quit stressful job or toxic relationship, etc its the consequence to escape it that people fear

 

[whatevs]

that makes me wonder.. Do animals know and fear death, what makes people fear death.......

You should really read Schopenhauer's World as Will and Representation. You're close to the crucial question but are trying to squeeze unrelated explanations into why lifeforms want to exist. It isn't fear of pain. Pain is a way the body has to signal that the will to exist is being threatened or blocked. Lifeforms fear death because they are manifestations of the will to exist, and death destroys the manifestation (although not the will itself, which is an essence or a Platonic idea if you will).

Note that Schopenhauer didn't explain EVERYTHING, he just laid out well some aspects of the puzzle of reality, particularly the one that's now occupying your mind.

 

[Efilismislife]

You should really read Schopenhauer's World as Will and Representation. You're close to the crucial question but are trying to squeeze unrelated explanations into why lifeforms want to exist. It isn't fear of pain. Pain is a way the body has to signal that the will to exist is being threatened or blocked. Lifeforms fear death because they are manifestations of the will to exist, and death destroys the manifestation (although not the will itself, which is an essence or a Platonic idea if you will).

Note that Schopenhauer didn't explain EVERYTHING, he just laid out well some aspects of the puzzle of reality, particularly the one that's now occupying your mind.

I read it but it seems to talk about the will to survive not the will to be born? as non existence doesnt have that

Even if he said that theres no proof that non existence can even do that isnt it?

that sounds like some religion doctrine that said human need to be martyred, sacrifice, keep breeding to pay debt from their previous lives

what i meant to talk about is from scientific viewpoint

 

[whatevs]

But those are just assumptions and no proof to it?

What im talking about is from scientific viewpoint

Everything about life proves Schopenhauer's philosophy. Just because it isn't materialistic it doesn't mean it is false. This notion that anything radically outside of materialism is automatically false is ironically very unscientific as scientific enquiry is purported to be about always considering new ideas as long as one can reason OR prove them.

Though as I said, in this particular case it's very obvious that life comes from some subtle impulse that is characterized by an eagerness to exist, of which the fear of death and the drive to reproduce are symptoms. Your inability to understand life and the fear of death comes from the delusion that materialism (or worse still, an academia enslaved by money and social validation) can actually explain life, when what we are going through it's just a transient obscurantist ideology that causes untold anxiety by giving you worthless technology in exchange for robbing you of trascendence.

Your "Science" has characterized this as genes and evolution, but although that can be measured scientifically it is something that's less abstract than the will to exist and thus it is actually further from the truth. Who knows more about architecture, the guy studying a building or the guy studying what IS a building?

 

[Arrow]

your need to seek pleasure only driven by your gene. human are slave to it

technically my entire brain is just a system of hormones, chemicals, genes, etc. how can I be a 'slave' to the fundamental structures of what I am? it is simply the mechanism by which I exist. whatever your feelings about suicide are, i think you have to accept to some degree that it's necessarily irrational (maybe not completely unreasonable, however) to opt for your own non existence, or in the case of antinatalism opting for having not existed at all, because you're choosing the inability to have anything, which seems contradictory. you aren't even choosing to have something different, you're choosing the absence of anything at all.

religion, law, etc, etc punish people, ban method and make it so hard for people to end their lives. That proves how many people being forced to born selfishly and to suffer their entire lives. Like slavery

actually, pointing out how difficult human societies make it to take one's life kind of helps my argument. why would human beings go to great lengths to discourage the taking of one's life if those humans themselves were genuinely better off not existing, or if existence was so terrible? humans had to make those societies and set up those rules, so despite how terrible life must be, they for the most part agreed that choosing to die was bad/undesirable. and the argument that they're a slave to their genetics doesn't hold up because that's like saying "a cup filled with coffee is a slave to having coffee in it, and the cup full of coffee would be better at being a cup full of coffee if it were emptied." this doesn't really make sense; it wouldn't BE a cup full of coffee without the coffee, so it's not a slave to anything that's just what it is descriptively.

 

[SantaTeresa]

There is no philosophy about in my opinion, just common sense shaped by reality.

Either you want to have kids or you don't, and in if you do, you are morally obligated to be a good parent and provide a good upbringing to your kids and think of their well being before yours. Children are people, not prizes. Having a family is an honourific responsibility not a right, the only right we have here is to step aside.

Although I categorically reject any government dictate, a subtle direction towards anti-natalism doesn't sound too bad. The planet is overpopulated, and not by the competent kind. An artificial soft control could prevent majour tragedies and raise the standards of living.

Personally, I will never contribute in the gene pool of this disgusting specie, I can barely maintain myself alive anyways, and even if I were to be rich, nothing can make me care about someone else.

 

[Euthanza]

Capitalism ponzi needs cheap slaves at the bottom of it's pyramid scheme economy. So yeah I'm childfree and somewhat relate with anti natalism but still I'm pro choice, to each their own if they want to keep exercising humans right to breed (doing your part for Elon's enrichment) as long as they also respect human right to die.

Human right to breed without human right to die, is slavery without consent.

 

[Rapière]

I said it before and, since I got not replies on the other thread, I'll say it again: Antinatalism is completely pointless. There is neither beginning nor end to existence, meaning there has already been an infinite number of universes in the past with an infinite number of sentient beings, who suffer the same way we do, and so it will be in the future aswell. Therefore I ask you, if you saved- let's say a million potential people (you can make that number as high as you want to) from coming into existence, what differnce does it make when you are up against infinity? Exactly none. This is a world where nothing can be solved.

So stop wasting your energy on this philosophy, it will only make you more miserable.

 

[keitaro]

i personally think that most people probably shouldn't breed, but i don't blame people for doing it as long as they don't plan on purposely harming their offspring. and like the person above said, it feels pointless trying to save anyone. suffering is inevitable, and we are such small speck in the universe.

 

[Rapière]

I think Antinatalism has a therapeutic effect for people, who've been completely fucked over by life. Don't get me wrong, there are many strong arguments to be made in favor of it, but most people who subscribe to this philosophy do so for psychological reasons. Suffering is often swept under the rug by our fragile modern society, so people who do suffer alot become marginalized and see this philosophy as their last bastion of relief. Atleast that's how it was for me- now I prefer Daoism, Buddhism and Nietzsche, it's much better for my mental health in the long run.

 

[Yakamoz]

V good podcast here

 

[JealousOfTheElderly]

So you're basically like a nazi or something?

Yeah, kind of like what the nazis wanted.

Oof, this guy actually said it.

No, that poster is not a "Nazi". Nothing wrong with any of those ideas. No one is talking about ethnic cleansing. Just an overpopulated world with the wrong people breeding.

 

[Efilismislife]

whatever your feelings about suicide are, i think you have to accept to some degree that it's necessarily irrational (maybe not completely unreasonable, however) to opt for your own non existence, or in the case of antinatalism opting for having not existed at all, because you're choosing the inability to have anything, which seems contradictory. you aren't even choosing to have something different, you're choosing the absence of anything at all.

Theres no one choose to ctb without a reason like you said. If people are happy with their lives why they want to exit their lives?
theres always a reason that drive people to the edge.

Thats where youre wrong. Suicide isnt because someone choosing nothing at all. Mostly its because someone is helpless/cant change the thing they wanna change, be it mental, physical/ environment/because life makes them suffer.
Unless you forget that we dont live in a fairytale that can grant any wish and any reality we want.

ctb is an escape from this sht show

technically my entire brain is just a system of hormones, chemicals, genes, etc. how can I be a 'slave' to the fundamental structures of what I am? it is simply the mechanism by which I exist.

Not everything you feel you want is good for you/just because your brain excrete some chemical

There are people who like/have desire to eat poop, drink gasoline, eat dirt, etc. Based on what you say they should just do it/its good for them?
like people who couldnt control their appetite and end up with obesity&disease&suffer, Same as how people breed then complain and fight with their own children
Same as how people fall to people who dislike them/treat then unpleasant and end up being their slave
same as how people have panic attack to harmless thing
Some people who have excessive sexual desire ended up couldnt control their urge to rape, etc, etc

Why would human beings go to great lengths to discourage the taking of one's life if those humans themselves were genuinely better off not existing, or if existence was so terrible?

The question should be, if life is great why would u be here on a ctb forum?along with me and thousands of people and other millions of people who suicidal

Also the fact that 70% of world population is stress eventhough so much effort people do to prevent it. If life is so great none of that would happen.

Your questions already been answered hundreds of time

The ctb prevention is due to the 'higher up' needs people to pay tax, need labor workers, soldier to fight, need builders, slave maid, etc etc
older generation need newer generation to take care of things. like ponzi scheme

I said it before and, since I got not replies on the other thread, I'll say it again: Antinatalism is completely pointless.

The only option other than antinatalism is procreation.

so whats the point/benefit for the new being that being brought into the world with certain deteriorating, diseases, aging, dying, endless working, endless threats, endless fighting, endless stress burdens suffer, etc? Its a meaningless short temporary life with a certain bad ending

There has already been an infinite number of universes in the past with an infinite number of sentient beings, who suffer the same way we do, and so it will be in the future aswell. Therefore I ask you, if you saved- let's say a million potential people (you can make that number as high as you want to) from coming into existence, what differnce does it make when you are up against infinity? Exactly none. This is a world where nothing can be solved.

by your logic its also pointless to create medicine/hospital/medical research, doctor, etc
because diseases will still exist and even more and more disease appear and no cure, people still sick and die soon. Many people suffer,
so why not just stop them and let everybody die as well like you said "stop saving them"

then it will be the same as to let the world extinct because theres no point and human dies soon

also theres no point of law, prison since criminals dont care about them and the numbers still very high

and the anti suicide theory is the most stupid because "bringing new life is bringing a new certain death"
why dont they focus on that cause, rather than the consequence of that

Besides everybody gonna die soon so why should people create punishment for people who want to exit the crazy show sooner

 

[Euthanza]

The only option other than antinatalism is procreation.

so whats the point/benefit for the new being that being brought into the world with certain deteriorating, diseases, aging, dying, endless working, endless threats, endless fighting, endless stress burdens suffer, etc? Its a meaningless short temporary life with a certain bad ending


by your logic its also pointless to create medicine/hospital/medical research, doctor, etc
because diseases will still exist and even more and more disease appear and no cure, people still sick and die soon. Many people suffer,
so why not just stop them and let everybody die as well like you said "stop saving them"

then it will be the same as to let the world extinct because theres no point and human dies soon

also theres no point of law, prison since criminals dont care about them and the numbers still very high

and the anti suicide theory is the most stupid because "bringing new life is bringing a new certain death"
why dont they focus on that cause, rather than the consequence of that

Besides everybody gonna die soon so why should people create punishment for people who want to exit the crazy show sooner

Fully agree with your statement. The point of anti-natalism is a call to wake up for ordinary working class from daydreaming that they are bringing great life as 1% do, not even close. We must stop or cut the generational lies because the truth is, it doesn't work that way anymore; Or at least warn the population that the future might not be as good as children bed time story. Look at the richest classqq, they're trying hard to leave the earth too (like us, but in all different way because the richests want to live forever), what's wrong with life on earth, what are they trying to avoid here, saving human's great happy prosperous civilization? I don't think so.